IRC log of rdfa on 2011-07-14

Timestamps are in UTC.

13:56:14 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #rdfa
13:56:14 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-rdfa-irc
13:56:16 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs world
13:56:16 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #rdfa
13:56:18 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be 7332
13:56:18 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFa()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
13:56:19 [trackbot]
Meeting: RDF Web Applications Working Group Teleconference
13:56:19 [trackbot]
Date: 14 July 2011
13:57:30 [manu]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/
13:57:32 [manu]
Chair: Manu
13:57:59 [manu]
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdfa-wg/2011Jul/0028.html
13:58:02 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has now started
13:58:09 [Zakim]
+??P0
13:58:19 [gkellogg]
zakim, P0 is gkellogg
13:58:19 [Zakim]
sorry, gkellogg, I do not recognize a party named 'P0'
13:58:38 [gkellogg]
zakim, ??P0 is gkellogg
13:58:38 [Zakim]
+gkellogg; got it
13:58:58 [Zakim]
+??P1
13:59:05 [Zakim]
+??P5
13:59:10 [manu]
zakim, I am ??P5
13:59:10 [Zakim]
+manu; got it
13:59:17 [Zakim]
+bergie
14:00:03 [Zakim]
+Knud
14:00:09 [Zakim]
+OpenLink_Software
14:00:09 [Zakim]
+scor
14:00:14 [MacTed]
Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
14:00:15 [Zakim]
+MacTed; got it
14:00:34 [manu]
zakim, who is on the call?
14:00:34 [Zakim]
On the phone I see gkellogg, ??P1, manu, bergie, Knud, MacTed, scor
14:00:41 [tomayac_]
tomayac_ has joined #rdfa
14:00:54 [manu]
zakim, who is making noise?
14:00:55 [lindstream]
zakim, ??P1 is me
14:00:55 [Zakim]
+lindstream; got it
14:01:00 [MacTed]
who's on speaker? or otherwise echoing?
14:01:05 [Zakim]
manu, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gkellogg (16%), ??P1 (36%), Knud (49%), manu (100%), MacTed (24%)
14:01:11 [MacTed]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:11 [Zakim]
MacTed should now be muted
14:01:21 [Knud]
zakim, mute me
14:01:21 [Zakim]
Knud should now be muted
14:01:41 [bergie]
Zakim, mute me
14:01:41 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:01:58 [Steven]
zakim, code?
14:01:58 [Zakim]
the conference code is 7332 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), Steven
14:02:46 [manu]
Any updates/changes to the agenda?
14:02:55 [Knud]
I have a quick question:
14:02:56 [manu]
Any news?
14:03:07 [Knud]
is there any RDFa parser for iOS?
14:03:12 [Zakim]
+Steven
14:03:13 [Knud]
or something along those lines?
14:03:27 [Knud]
yes, you can compile C
14:03:31 [Knud]
it's Obj-C
14:03:46 [Knud]
I was thinking of writing one, then
14:03:49 [MacTed]
Obj-C is superset of C (and of C++)
14:04:37 [manu]
https://github.com/msporny/librdfa
14:04:37 [Knud]
Yeah, I know librdfa - but if I want to implement the RDFa API on top of it, I'd rather have my own RDFa parser implementation
14:04:52 [Knud]
I'm not promising anything. :)
14:04:58 [MacTed]
I haven't tested ... but ODE may already do, and should be portable from base Mac OS X if not...
14:04:58 [Knud]
just a toy project for me
14:05:17 [Knud]
Ok, I'll check out ODE
14:05:38 [Steven]
Scribe: Steven
14:06:06 [manu]
http://80legs.com/
14:06:08 [Steven]
Agenda+ISSUE-96: Document not ready
14:06:20 [Steven]
Agenda+Graph.toArray() list order
14:06:30 [MacTed]
Knud - just tested... iOS Safari won't download/install extension, so not yet. I'll make sure that's put on our roadmap.
14:06:31 [Steven]
Agenda+Live NodeLists and Graphs
14:06:44 [Steven]
Topic: Announcement
14:06:53 [Knud]
thanks Ted!
14:06:55 [Steven]
ManU: 80legs.com
14:07:00 [Steven]
s/U/u/
14:07:32 [Steven]
... we are thinking of working with 80legs to get data about usage
14:07:59 [Steven]
... so that we can defend some of our positions, or otherwise
14:08:17 [Steven]
... and as a basic for the RDFa/Microdata task force
14:08:25 [Steven]
next agendum
14:09:10 [Steven]
Manu: I've been talking to people at browser companies, trying to get feedback
14:09:27 [Steven]
... about what changes they would like to see in RDFa to make them happy
14:09:31 [Steven]
... they are willing to talk
14:09:54 [Steven]
... so some recent bugs are a result of those discussions
14:10:57 [Steven]
[x]: A lot don't know what they are going to do with the data yet
14:11:12 [Steven]
... from my point of view, it's about publishing more than we've got today
14:11:13 [manu]
s/[x]/Niklas/
14:11:37 [Steven]
Niklas: And they don't know why we want the data there
14:11:47 [Steven]
Manu: Robert Nieman?
14:11:55 [Steven]
Niklas: Yes, Mozilla and FIrefox
14:12:05 [Steven]
Manu: Should we talk with them?
14:12:27 [Steven]
Niklas: I haven't spent a lot of time doing that yet, but I'm thinking of doing more
14:12:57 [Steven]
Manu: They say that they don't need it, but at the same time they say they like microdata
14:13:26 [Steven]
Niklas: They don't grok the graphs of RDFa
14:13:48 [Steven]
Manu: They don't want to reduce performance for a small audience
14:13:58 [Steven]
s/for/for the benefit/
14:15:00 [manu]
Topic: ISSUE-96: Document not ready
14:15:07 [manu]
http://www.w3.org/2010/02/rdfa/track/issues/96
14:17:05 [Steven]
Manu: Which direction should we go with htis?
14:17:08 [gkellogg]
q+
14:17:08 [bergie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:17:09 [Zakim]
bergie should no longer be muted
14:17:12 [bergie]
+q
14:17:33 [Steven]
Greg: Doing a callback is my preference
14:17:40 [manu]
ack gkellogg
14:18:07 [lindstream]
q+
14:18:20 [manu]
ack bergie
14:18:21 [Steven]
Henry: CLient-side js people ar efamiliar with event model, so I would bind to event-ready, or a similar event; don't bother with ready signals for particlatr resource
14:18:22 [bergie]
Zakim, mute me
14:18:22 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:18:29 [Steven]
sNiklas: I prefer callback
14:18:33 [Steven]
s/sN/
14:18:39 [Steven]
s/iklas/Niklas/
14:19:12 [Steven]
Manu: An RDFa doc can have miltiple profiles. Processing can be done ignoring a subprofile that can't be fetched
14:19:20 [Steven]
... just one event is difficult
14:19:33 [Steven]
s/CL/Cl/
14:19:50 [Steven]
... so how do we address one of 5 profiles not loading
14:19:53 [lindstream]
q+
14:19:56 [Steven]
s/ing/ing?/
14:19:59 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:21:09 [Steven]
Niklas: [missed]
14:21:26 [Steven]
Manu: SO the only time the profile needs to be loaded is when we are trying to do something RDFa like with the data
14:21:34 [Steven]
s/data/data?/
14:21:34 [gkellogg]
q+
14:21:41 [manu]
ack gkellogg
14:21:48 [Steven]
Greg: That comes down to a usage model
14:22:07 [Steven]
... if the app knows what it needs. But doesn't get round needing to know when you can process
14:22:39 [Steven]
... we can't get away from needing that feedback
14:22:59 [Steven]
Manu: So we could have a callback that gives a map of the profiles and whether they have loaded
14:23:08 [Steven]
Gregory: That would do it
14:23:33 [Steven]
... it's easier to have a second callback saying when all profiles have been loaded
14:23:35 [lindstream]
q+
14:23:48 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:23:54 [Steven]
... knowing about failures could be useful
14:24:04 [manu]
q+
14:24:51 [Steven]
Manu: We could do the same with an event, it's about the parameter passed with event or callback
14:25:00 [tomayac]
is it a good idea to decouple profile(s) loaded and document loaded events? wouldn't fine-grained error reporting be better? => e.g. profile x timeout
14:25:07 [Steven]
... but one per profile would require knowledge about number of profiles
14:25:15 [Steven]
... by the app writer
14:25:23 [Steven]
q+
14:25:28 [Steven]
ack m
14:25:47 [manu]
ack manu
14:26:07 [manu]
Steven: Sounds like you need an event to say they've all been done, and one error event if one of them fails.
14:26:15 [Steven]
ack me
14:26:21 [tomayac]
so you'd have an event dataloaded or whatever with fine-grained success/failre states
14:26:49 [tomayac]
s/failre/failure/
14:27:25 [tomayac]
then +1 for doing it the XForms way, Steven ;-)
14:27:28 [lindstream]
q+
14:27:31 [Steven]
Manu: Are we talking about the processor writer using these events for us in JS, or the webdeveloper knowing that the RDFa data is ready
14:27:37 [Steven]
Niklas: The latter
14:27:38 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:28:01 [Steven]
... I agree with an evet/callback saying everything is ready
14:28:10 [Steven]
... progress reoprting is not so important
14:28:17 [Steven]
s/reop/repo/
14:28:41 [Steven]
Manu: So maybe an event and a callback, event is RDFa-data-ready, the callback is an error callback
14:29:10 [Steven]
... does that cover it?
14:29:25 [Steven]
[voice]: I think so
14:29:39 [bergie]
Sounds good
14:30:10 [bergie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:30:10 [Zakim]
bergie should no longer be muted
14:30:26 [manu]
s/[voice]/Niklas/
14:30:27 [Steven]
Henry: Sounds good. Keep things simple.
14:30:43 [tomayac]
document.ondataready(event)
14:31:08 [bergie]
Zakim, mute me
14:31:08 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:31:14 [tomayac]
similar to document.onload
14:31:16 [Steven]
... try running VIE editing environment on top of RDFa API, would be a good test case
14:31:33 [lindstream]
q+
14:31:33 [Steven]
Manu: Some like the microdata API because there is only one event
14:31:38 [Steven]
s/event/call/
14:31:40 [bergie]
link to VIE for those who haven't seen it: https://github.com/bergie/VIE#readme
14:33:10 [Steven]
Niklas: One remark, using profiles we don't need to use URIs, but the mapping is awkward for developers
14:34:51 [Steven]
Manu: So maybe we need a "getraw" for the attribute as used in the page
14:35:01 [Steven]
zakim, agenda?
14:35:01 [Zakim]
I see 3 items remaining on the agenda:
14:35:02 [Zakim]
1. ISSUE-96: Document not ready [from Steven]
14:35:03 [Zakim]
2. Graph.toArray() list order [from Steven]
14:35:05 [Zakim]
3. Live NodeLists and Graphs [from Steven]
14:35:36 [Steven]
[x]: So @profile is a new feature; why not have the default profile in the spec, and no other profile at all.
14:35:51 [manu]
s/[x]/Stephane/
14:35:52 [Steven]
... what is the real benefit of profiles?
14:36:16 [Steven]
Manu: The one big use case is microformats
14:36:25 [gkellogg]
q+
14:36:33 [Steven]
... the other is for people who don't like CURIES
14:36:58 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:36:59 [Steven]
Stephane: Well, they can define the vocab inline
14:37:02 [manu]
ack gkellogg
14:37:43 [Steven]
Greg: Microformats work with a profile with an NCNAME
14:37:57 [Steven]
... maybe we can provide those as standard
14:38:03 [Steven]
q+
14:38:30 [manu]
ack Steven
14:38:43 [manu]
Steven: The reason profiles are there are to provide an extension mechanism.
14:39:00 [manu]
q+
14:39:09 [Steven]
ack m
14:39:37 [manu]
ack manu
14:39:41 [Steven]
Manu: Good discussion, revisiting some of these decisions. Stephane made a good point, that most of the profile use cases could be addressed with @vocab
14:40:16 [Steven]
... but vocabulary mixing wouldn't work
14:40:32 [Steven]
... but you could just use prefixing
14:40:44 [lindstream]
q+
14:41:28 [Steven]
Niklas: I see the value in that. I thought of profiles as vocabs with mixing at a direct level. That use case might be small, and then you could use prefixes
14:41:49 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:42:17 [Steven]
Manu: So you suppotr removing @profile?
14:42:22 [Steven]
s/potr/port/
14:42:38 [Steven]
Niklas: Not sure. I like @profile
14:43:43 [Steven]
Manu: People were wondering why we were using URLs to identify everything.
14:44:09 [Steven]
... they suggested using a default profile, wioth registering prefixes at the profile
14:44:21 [Steven]
q+
14:44:28 [Steven]
s/wio/wi
14:44:36 [Steven]
... a registery
14:44:38 [bergie]
q+
14:44:44 [lindstream]
q+
14:44:46 [Steven]
s/registery/registry
14:44:57 [manu]
ack Steven
14:45:40 [bergie]
Zakim, unmute me
14:45:40 [Zakim]
bergie should no longer be muted
14:45:42 [manu]
ack bergie
14:45:48 [Steven]
Steven: The idea is to give freedom, not asking people to register. It's like asking people to register class names
14:45:53 [Steven]
Niklas: I second that
14:46:13 [Steven]
... people can use the ontology they feel like
14:46:29 [gkellogg]
q+
14:46:36 [Knud]
could we have both: a registry _and_ a local prefixing mechanism?
14:46:40 [Steven]
... I'm strongly against registering
14:46:44 [bergie]
Zakim, mute me
14:46:44 [Zakim]
bergie should now be muted
14:46:48 [manu]
ack lindstream
14:46:57 [Steven]
s/Niklas/Henry/
14:47:04 [Steven]
Niklas: I support Steven and Henry on this
14:47:36 [MacTed]
centralized registries are trouble
14:47:36 [Knud]
a registry could help 80% of the big name use cases, the local prefixing could help the rest?
14:47:41 [manu]
ack gkellogg
14:47:44 [MacTed]
q+
14:47:54 [MacTed]
Zakim, unmute me
14:47:54 [Zakim]
MacTed should no longer be muted
14:47:57 [Steven]
Greg: @profile is a complication in an implementation
14:48:06 [Steven]
... which should think about removing it
14:48:20 [Steven]
... @prefix does address the use cases
14:48:30 [manu]
ack MacTed
14:48:57 [Steven]
Ted: Centralised registries are always problematic. Doomed
14:49:09 [Steven]
... RDFa is succesful because it is not centralised
14:49:15 [Steven]
s/sf/ssf/
14:49:29 [Steven]
q+
14:49:56 [Steven]
... eventually we should think about getting rid of prefixing
14:50:07 [gkellogg]
q+
14:50:10 [Steven]
Manu: Is that an argument for @profile
14:50:13 [Steven]
Ted: Not sure
14:50:35 [Steven]
Ted: Ultimate solution is doc to be fully expanded at delivery
14:50:50 [Steven]
Scribe: I disagree with that point of view
14:51:22 [manu]
ack Steven
14:52:09 [manu]
q+
14:52:26 [Steven]
Ted: Shorthand gets in the way of knowing what the fully expanded form is
14:52:48 [Steven]
Steven: I think that is anti-author
14:53:05 [Steven]
... writing the full form URIs would be awful
14:53:08 [manu]
ack gkellogg
14:53:34 [Steven]
Greg: Some of the copy-paste issues could be addressed at the top-level
14:53:35 [Steven]
q+
14:53:37 [Steven]
q-
14:53:42 [Steven]
q+ on copy paste
14:54:06 [Steven]
Greg: There is something to be said for things that are easy to read
14:54:12 [Steven]
... full URIs are a nightmare
14:54:15 [lindstream]
q+
14:54:20 [bergie]
bergie has joined #rdfa
14:54:26 [Steven]
... CURIEs are elegant in comparison
14:55:13 [Steven]
Manu: I don't think Ted and Steven are saying different things; I think the web-level can transform
14:55:33 [manu]
ack manu
14:55:50 [Steven]
Ted: Where it happens is up to a lot of things
14:56:00 [Steven]
... you may not have control over the webserver
14:56:36 [Steven]
... there are multiple stages where these things matter
14:56:56 [Steven]
... who pays? The author, the end user, the programmer?
14:57:15 [Steven]
... The ugliness should be hidden from the enduser
14:57:24 [manu]
ack Steven
14:57:25 [Zakim]
Steven, you wanted to comment on copy paste
14:58:02 [manu]
Steven: I've always thought that the copy-paste problem was a bit of a red herring - I've never had problems with it myself - people that copy/paste tend to work in the same areas
14:58:12 [manu]
Steven: if copy-paste is an issue, then authoring in general is an issue.
14:58:25 [manu]
Steven: I don't think it's a big issue.
14:58:27 [manu]
q+
14:58:36 [Zakim]
-scor
14:58:37 [webr3]
webr3 has joined #rdfa
14:58:39 [Steven]
Niklas: CURIES are one way to make things easier, @profile can help too
14:59:33 [Steven]
Manu: So profiles can be used to ease authoring and consumption by the browser?
14:59:38 [manu]
ack manu
14:59:39 [Steven]
Niklas: Possibly
14:59:44 [manu]
ack lindstream
15:00:05 [Steven]
Manu: can someone raise these issues on the mailing list to get some feedback?
15:00:14 [Steven]
... such as proposing removing @profile
15:00:20 [MacTed]
I have to jump to another call...
15:00:37 [Steven]
x: Restricting @prefix to toplevel
15:00:54 [Zakim]
-MacTed
15:00:55 [Steven]
]Manu: removing prefixes no one likes, but perhaps it's worth raising
15:01:05 [Steven]
s/]//
15:01:11 [Steven]
Greg: I'll do removing @profile
15:01:28 [Steven]
Manu: I'll do restricting @prefix to head
15:01:41 [Steven]
... and removing p[refix altogether
15:01:44 [Steven]
s/[//
15:02:20 [Steven]
Topic: AOB
15:02:39 [Steven]
Steven: Enquire using doodle about coming meetings?
15:02:43 [Steven]
Manu: I'll do that
15:02:45 [Steven]
ADJOURN
15:02:53 [bergie]
bye
15:03:20 [gkellogg]
s/Greg/Gregg/
15:03:27 [Zakim]
-Steven
15:03:29 [Zakim]
-manu
15:03:31 [Zakim]
-gkellogg
15:03:36 [Zakim]
-Knud
15:03:41 [Zakim]
-bergie
15:03:45 [tomayac]
bye, sorry to miss audio today. seems like it would've been worth it.
15:03:47 [Zakim]
-lindstream
15:03:49 [Zakim]
SW_RDFa()10:00AM has ended
15:03:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were gkellogg, manu, bergie, Knud, scor, MacTed, lindstream, Steven
15:05:15 [gkellogg]
*tomayac are congratulations in order?
15:06:26 [lindstream]
thanks all!
15:06:32 [lindstream]
lindstream has left #rdfa
15:16:24 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has joined #rdfa
15:25:39 [ShaneM]
ShaneM has left #rdfa
15:32:52 [Knud]
Knud has left #rdfa