14:56:13 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc ←
14:56:15 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:56:17 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394 ←
14:56:17 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes ←
14:56:18 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:56:18 <trackbot> Date: 01 May 2013
14:59:55 <TallTed> Zakim, this is 73394
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, this is 73394 ←
14:59:55 <Zakim> ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, TallTed; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM ←
14:59:59 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
14:59:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, OpenLink_Software ←
15:00:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot ←
15:00:08 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:00:08 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
15:00:09 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:00:09 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
15:01:14 <Zakim> +Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan ←
15:01:18 <Zakim> +pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps ←
15:01:23 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
15:01:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:01:32 <AndyS> zakim, IPCaller is me
Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me ←
15:01:32 <Zakim> +AndyS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS; got it ←
15:01:35 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P25 is me
Yves Raimond: Zakim, ??P25 is me ←
15:01:35 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it ←
15:02:01 <Guus> zakim, who is here?
Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here? ←
15:02:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS ←
15:02:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +??P27
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27 ←
15:02:27 <gkellogg> zakim, ??P27 is me
Gregg Kellogg: zakim, ??P27 is me ←
15:02:27 <Zakim> +gkellogg; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +gkellogg; got it ←
15:02:30 <Zakim> +??P28
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28 ←
15:02:39 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P28 is me
Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P28 is me ←
15:02:40 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it ←
15:02:59 <Zakim> +cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer ←
15:03:08 <Zakim> +Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: +Souri ←
15:03:10 <Zakim> +EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP ←
15:03:46 <Guus> chair: Guus
15:04:01 <ivan> scribenick: cgreer
(Scribe set to Charles Greer)
15:04:10 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:05:04 <cgreer> topic: admin
15:05:24 <cgreer> propsed: accept minutes of 24 April telecon
PROPOSED: accept minutes of 24 April telecon ←
15:05:32 <cgreer> s/propsed/proposed
15:05:38 <TallTed> Zakim, unmute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me ←
15:05:38 <Zakim> TallTed should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should no longer be muted ←
15:05:54 <cgreer> TallTed: The links in the minutes absorb trailing punctuation
Peter Patel-Schneider: The links in the minutes absorb trailing punctuation ←
15:06:06 <cgreer> ... the URI poster is somehow messed up
... the URI poster is somehow messed up ←
15:06:27 <TallTed> s/TallTed:/pfps:/
15:06:32 <cgreer> RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 24 April telecon
RESOLVED: to accept the minutes of the 24 April telecon ←
15:06:38 <TallTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:06:38 <Zakim> TallTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: TallTed should now be muted ←
15:06:45 <cgreer> subtopic: action items
15:07:49 <cgreer> subtopic: Etiquette for responding on public-comments list
15:07:50 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
15:07:56 <markus> zakim, ??P34 is me
Markus Lanthaler: zakim, ??P34 is me ←
15:07:56 <Zakim> +markus; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +markus; got it ←
15:08:04 <cgreer> Guus: We must be polite and take comments seriously
Guus Schreiber: We must be polite and take comments seriously ←
15:08:13 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:08:25 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:08:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed (muted), Ivan, pfps, yvesr, AndyS, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus ←
15:08:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see tbaker, PatH, Souri, cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see tbaker, PatH, Souri, cgreer, pfps, gkellogg, markus, Zakim, RRSAgent, AndyS, gavinc, Guus, TallTed, SteveH, ivan, manu1, yvesr, manu, ericP, mischat, sandro, trackbot ←
15:08:28 <cgreer> ... we've got a lot of documents going out and keep this in our mind at this time
... we've got a lot of documents going out and keep this in our mind at this time ←
15:08:49 <cgreer> ... so keep in mind difference between public list and internal one
... so keep in mind difference between public list and internal one ←
15:09:00 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:09:19 <cgreer> ericP: Apropos of comments, I've been tracking them in the wiki, just on turtle.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Apropos of comments, I've been tracking them in the wiki, just on turtle. ←
15:09:22 <ericP> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments turtle comments
Eric Prud'hommeaux: -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Turtle_Candidate_Recommendation_Comments turtle comments ←
15:09:56 <cgreer> ... I'm looking for people to close issues. The protocol is to put your name under the owner.
... I'm looking for people to close issues. The protocol is to put your name under the owner. ←
15:10:14 <cgreer> ... If you're taking ownership of comments, record owner and resolution please
... If you're taking ownership of comments, record owner and resolution please ←
15:11:21 <cgreer> PatH: I was wondering if there's been any behavior to prompt this comment
Patrick Hayes: I was wondering if there's been any behavior to prompt this comment ←
15:11:50 <cgreer> Guus: About RDF/JSON is what I was mainly referring to, but we'll discuss that when Manu is present.
Guus Schreiber: About RDF/JSON is what I was mainly referring to, but we'll discuss that when Manu is present. ←
15:11:56 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
15:12:07 <Zakim> +zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2 ←
15:12:23 <cgreer> topic: Issues related to Concepts and Semantics
15:12:34 <Zakim> +PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH ←
15:12:44 <cgreer> subtopic: issue 118 Simplifying datatype semantics
15:13:01 <PatH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0012.html
Patrick Hayes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0012.html ←
15:13:52 <cgreer> PatH: The text here basically tries to avoid a semantic-y taint
Patrick Hayes: The text here basically tries to avoid a semantic-y taint ←
15:14:02 <cgreer> ... It instead speaks of IRIs and referents
... It instead speaks of IRIs and referents ←
15:14:23 <cgreer> ivan: Perfectly answers my comments
Ivan Herman: Perfectly answers my comments ←
15:14:24 <pfps> q+
15:14:36 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
15:14:36 <PatH> q-
Patrick Hayes: q- ←
15:14:40 <cgreer> pfps: I'm trying to look up 'rigid identifier'
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm trying to look up 'rigid identifier' ←
15:14:40 <Guus> ack pfps
Guus Schreiber: ack pfps ←
15:14:45 <cgreer> ... It's not in semantics yet.
... It's not in semantics yet. ←
15:14:51 <cgreer> PatH: Right, but it's in the proposed text
Patrick Hayes: Right, but it's in the proposed text ←
15:15:51 <cgreer> pfps: My concern -- if somebody uses an IRI for a datatype, it seems as though that 'fixes it for everyone'
Peter Patel-Schneider: My concern -- if somebody uses an IRI for a datatype, it seems as though that 'fixes it for everyone' ←
15:16:03 <cgreer> ... The change would be 'implementations that recognize datatype X'...
... The change would be 'implementations that recognize datatype X'... ←
15:16:31 <cgreer> PatH: I'll adapt, get rid of 'rigid identifier'
Patrick Hayes: I'll adapt, get rid of 'rigid identifier' ←
15:16:45 <cgreer> ... It's a red flag anyhow
... It's a red flag anyhow ←
15:16:56 <Zakim> +??P36
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36 ←
15:17:03 <pchampin> zakim, ??P36 is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P36 is me ←
15:17:03 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:17:56 <cgreer> PatH: I'll prepare something to vote on now
Patrick Hayes: I'll prepare something to vote on now ←
15:18:19 <cgreer> subtopic: RDF Merge in Semantics
15:19:13 <cgreer> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0139.html
See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013Apr/0139.html ←
15:19:29 <Zakim> -EricP
Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP ←
15:19:34 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[GVoice] ←
15:19:35 <cgreer> pfps: AZ has a point that other specs use 'merge' so it has to stick around in addition to 'union'
Peter Patel-Schneider: AZ has a point that other specs use 'merge' so it has to stick around in addition to 'union' ←
15:20:03 <cgreer> pfps: That's OK. You keep the term around for those circumstances where you need to cope with blank nodes
Peter Patel-Schneider: That's OK. You keep the term around for those circumstances where you need to cope with blank nodes ←
15:20:50 <pfps> PROPOSED: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs
PROPOSED: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs ←
15:21:49 <sandro> pat: it was an editorial mistake which I will correct. no need for group decision
Patrick Hayes: it was an editorial mistake which I will correct. no need for group decision [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:21:51 <sandro> guus: fine.
Guus Schreiber: fine. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:22:38 <cgreer> action to PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs
action to PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs ←
15:22:38 <trackbot> Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>.
Trackbot IRC Bot: Error finding 'to'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users>. ←
15:22:48 <Guus> ACTION PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs
Guus Schreiber: ACTION PatH: add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs ←
15:22:48 <trackbot> Created ACTION-261 - Add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-05-08].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-261 - Add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2013-05-08]. ←
15:23:26 <cgreer> topic: Turtle
15:24:00 <cgreer> gavinc: one of the possible outcomes of the problem is to remove XML and HTML from concepts.
Gavin Carothers: one of the possible outcomes of the problem is to remove XML and HTML from concepts. ←
15:24:09 <cgreer> ... the issue is DOM requirements
... the issue is DOM requirements ←
15:24:14 <yvesr> Zakim, who is noisy?
Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:24:15 <ivan> zakim, who is noisy?
Ivan Herman: zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:24:25 <Zakim> yvesr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericP (29%), GavinC (33%), Guus_Schreiber (18%)
Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: ericP (29%), GavinC (33%), Guus_Schreiber (18%) ←
15:24:37 <Zakim> ivan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: GavinC (83%), PatH (3%), Guus_Schreiber (21%)
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: GavinC (83%), PatH (3%), Guus_Schreiber (21%) ←
15:24:51 <cgreer> gavinc: The HTML fragment parsing as it stands produces an HTML document.
Gavin Carothers: The HTML fragment parsing as it stands produces an HTML document. ←
15:25:07 <cgreer> ... There's a spec in progress for a fragment, but it's part of Web Components
... There's a spec in progress for a fragment, but it's part of Web Components ←
15:25:11 <cgreer> ... and it's still a WD
... and it's still a WD ←
15:25:24 <cgreer> ... for XML, we're referencing DOM4, not DOM3
... for XML, we're referencing DOM4, not DOM3 ←
15:25:41 <cgreer> ... the question of 'can we reference DOM4' is resolved, but what about fragment parsing part of HTML
... the question of 'can we reference DOM4' is resolved, but what about fragment parsing part of HTML ←
15:26:00 <cgreer> sure it makes sense
sure it makes sense ←
15:26:12 <cgreer> Guus: What do we need to fix?
Guus Schreiber: What do we need to fix? ←
15:26:31 <cgreer> gavinc: The DOM4 vs. 3 is resolved. The HTML issue is a little more complex
Gavin Carothers: The DOM4 vs. 3 is resolved. The HTML issue is a little more complex ←
15:26:34 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:26:42 <cgreer> ... The fragment parsing for HTML just ain't stable
... The fragment parsing for HTML just ain't stable ←
15:26:56 <Guus> ack ivan
Guus Schreiber: ack ivan ←
15:27:05 <cgreer> ivan: Why do you say referencing DOM4 is OK?
Ivan Herman: Why do you say referencing DOM4 is OK? ←
15:27:09 <cgreer> ... This is also a WD
... This is also a WD ←
15:27:22 <cgreer> ... I'm wondering whether we need DOM4.
... I'm wondering whether we need DOM4. ←
15:27:34 <cgreer> gavinc: THere are comparison methods in DOM3, but they are not implemented
Gavin Carothers: THere are comparison methods in DOM3, but they are not implemented ←
15:27:39 <gkellogg> You could reference the WHATWG version of DOM4.
Gregg Kellogg: You could reference the WHATWG version of DOM4. ←
15:27:57 <markus> was just about to propose the same :-)
Markus Lanthaler: was just about to propose the same :-) ←
15:28:02 <cgreer> gavinc: What's specified in DOM4, although it's a WD, there are implementations at least
Gavin Carothers: What's specified in DOM4, although it's a WD, there are implementations at least ←
15:28:05 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
15:28:07 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:28:35 <cgreer> ivan: We still don't know whether or not we can reference DOM4. The other issue though...
Ivan Herman: We still don't know whether or not we can reference DOM4. The other issue though... ←
15:28:39 <Guus> ack sandro
Guus Schreiber: ack sandro ←
15:28:46 <cgreer> ... perhaps we can say that HTML datatype is not normative
... perhaps we can say that HTML datatype is not normative ←
15:29:00 <cgreer> gavinc: That gets around process problem, but doesn't help implementors
Gavin Carothers: That gets around process problem, but doesn't help implementors ←
15:29:19 <cgreer> ... I want to just make sure that implementors get HTML datatypes right
... I want to just make sure that implementors get HTML datatypes right ←
15:29:34 <cgreer> sandro: Let's put aside procedural problems.
Sandro Hawke: Let's put aside procedural problems. ←
15:30:01 <cgreer> ... So this comes up if somebody's writing an RDF system and somebody wants to match HTML datatypes, even if representations are different
... So this comes up if somebody's writing an RDF system and somebody wants to match HTML datatypes, even if representations are different ←
15:30:09 <cgreer> ... worst case is that they cannot do value comparisons
... worst case is that they cannot do value comparisons ←
15:30:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Either that or people expect HTML that you can actually use
Gavin Carothers: Either that or people expect HTML that you can actually use ←
15:30:31 <cgreer> ivan: Or equality in SPARQL, but it doesn't happen
Ivan Herman: Or equality in SPARQL, but it doesn't happen ←
15:30:36 <gkellogg> <P>foo == <p>foo</p>
Gregg Kellogg: <P>foo == <p>foo</p> ←
15:30:48 <cgreer> sandro: Because you're expecting normative ops, attribute order, whitespace, etc.
Sandro Hawke: Because you're expecting normative ops, attribute order, whitespace, etc. ←
15:31:08 <cgreer> gavinc: Or all-closed elements vs non-closing ones.
Gavin Carothers: Or all-closed elements vs non-closing ones. ←
15:31:25 <cgreer> sandro: As a programmer, I'd be happy if it matched, but we're not used to that as of yet
Sandro Hawke: As a programmer, I'd be happy if it matched, but we're not used to that as of yet ←
15:31:43 <cgreer> gavinc: every web browser will do the right thing here
Gavin Carothers: every web browser will do the right thing here ←
15:32:03 <cgreer> ... This does happen a lot
... This does happen a lot ←
15:32:12 <cgreer> sandro: But are you comparing HTML literals really?
Sandro Hawke: But are you comparing HTML literals really? ←
15:32:27 <cgreer> gavinc: But output HTML we expect to look the same, as an effect of parsing
Gavin Carothers: But output HTML we expect to look the same, as an effect of parsing ←
15:32:44 <cgreer> sandro: We can disagree about how important this is, but that people can get by without this
Sandro Hawke: We can disagree about how important this is, but that people can get by without this ←
15:32:55 <cgreer> gavinc: Value vs. literal for HTML (and XML)
Gavin Carothers: Value vs. literal for HTML (and XML) ←
15:33:11 <PatH> revized wording for issue 118 is now here, suitable for voting if voting is required: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html . Just sayin.
Patrick Hayes: revized wording for ISSUE-118 is now here, suitable for voting if voting is required: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html . Just sayin. ←
15:33:12 <cgreer> sandro: Is this the only thing wrt HTML?
Sandro Hawke: Is this the only thing wrt HTML? ←
15:33:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Yes, that's it
Gavin Carothers: Yes, that's it ←
15:33:40 <cgreer> sandro: I'd be comfortable with our declaring that the HTML datatype value process is still not fully determined
Sandro Hawke: I'd be comfortable with our declaring that the HTML datatype value process is still not fully determined ←
15:34:01 <cgreer> ... and until that's settled, the datatype is a flag
... and until that's settled, the datatype is a flag ←
15:34:09 <cgreer> .. to expect further work in this area
.. to expect further work in this area ←
15:34:23 <cgreer> gavinc: And to point to where value processing is being worked out
Gavin Carothers: And to point to where value processing is being worked out ←
15:34:46 <cgreer> ... we want people to implement this, but also to point out that it's not final yet
... we want people to implement this, but also to point out that it's not final yet ←
15:35:05 <cgreer> sandro: Is it also a question about non-HTML syntax?
Sandro Hawke: Is it also a question about non-HTML syntax? ←
15:35:17 <cgreer> ... like a literal that's '<' but HTML datatyle
... like a literal that's '<' but HTML datatyle ←
15:35:25 <cgreer> gavinc: That's an ill-typed literal
Gavin Carothers: That's an ill-typed literal ←
15:35:34 <AndyS> Suggest we avoid test cases if we're outsourcing to DOM4/whatever for final definition as small details may change after we're finished..
Andy Seaborne: Suggest we avoid test cases if we're outsourcing to DOM4/whatever for final definition as small details may change after we're finished.. ←
15:35:40 <cgreer> ... you have to be able to parse at least
... you have to be able to parse at least ←
15:35:41 <markus> wondering whether it wouldn't be better to rename rdf:HTML to rdf:HTML5...
Markus Lanthaler: wondering whether it wouldn't be better to rename rdf:HTML to rdf:HTML5... ←
15:35:51 <ericP> <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/>
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/> ←
15:35:54 <ericP> <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/>?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: <p class="C" style="color:red;"/> == <p style="color:red;" class="C"/>? ←
15:36:09 <ericP> can we count on trivial equivalence?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: can we count on trivial equivalence? ←
15:36:12 <gavinc> yeah, stuff like that ericP
Gavin Carothers: yeah, stuff like that ericP ←
15:36:22 <cgreer> sandro: I'm proposing that we look for an older HTML that is meaningful for this?
Sandro Hawke: I'm proposing that we look for an older HTML that is meaningful for this? ←
15:36:23 <Guus> q?
Guus Schreiber: q? ←
15:36:41 <cgreer> gavinc: There's no standard anywhere about HTML fragments
Gavin Carothers: There's no standard anywhere about HTML fragments ←
15:36:57 <cgreer> ivan: And we can't refer to an older one.
Ivan Herman: And we can't refer to an older one. ←
15:37:14 <cgreer> gavinc: older HTMLs also didn't deal with fragment parsing
Gavin Carothers: older HTMLs also didn't deal with fragment parsing ←
15:37:28 <cgreer> sandro: My point is that we don't specify which HTML
Sandro Hawke: My point is that we don't specify which HTML ←
15:37:39 <markus> good point
Markus Lanthaler: good point ←
15:37:45 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:37:58 <PatH> q+
Patrick Hayes: q+ ←
15:38:27 <cgreer> PatH: This does seem as though we're doing something too wishy-washy with THML
Patrick Hayes: This does seem as though we're doing something too wishy-washy with HTML ←
15:38:30 <cgreer> s/THML/HTML
15:38:59 <cgreer> gavinc: the idea is to dodge the lexical-value mapping for HTML
Gavin Carothers: the idea is to dodge the lexical-value mapping for HTML ←
15:39:05 <cgreer> PatH: Which violates our spec
Patrick Hayes: Which violates our spec ←
15:39:14 <cgreer> ivan: I don't see another choice.
Ivan Herman: I don't see another choice. ←
15:39:26 <markus> q+
Markus Lanthaler: q+ ←
15:39:31 <cgreer> ... We could wait a couple of years to finalize RDF but that's not an option either
... We could wait a couple of years to finalize RDF but that's not an option either ←
15:39:32 <Guus> ack PatH
Guus Schreiber: ack PatH ←
15:39:34 <sandro> PROPOSAL: we're specifying rdf:HTML deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.
PROPOSED: we're specifying rdf:HTML deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed. ←
15:39:54 <cgreer> sandro: This is so complex .. the basic idea has been stable, but little bits keep changing
Sandro Hawke: This is so complex .. the basic idea has been stable, but little bits keep changing ←
15:40:06 <cgreer> PatH: But we didn't have HTML before.
Patrick Hayes: But we didn't have HTML before. ←
15:40:17 <Guus> ack markus
Guus Schreiber: ack markus ←
15:40:20 <cgreer> ivan: Now we have HTML which is not XML. It's much more common now
Ivan Herman: Now we have HTML which is not XML. It's much more common now ←
15:40:31 <cgreer> markus: Why do we need to normalize HTML at all?
Markus Lanthaler: Why do we need to normalize HTML at all? ←
15:40:41 <gavinc> Not normalizing! Just parsing
Gavin Carothers: Not normalizing! Just parsing ←
15:40:44 <cgreer> ... we could just use string comparison
... we could just use string comparison ←
15:40:54 <cgreer> ... isn't that viable?
... isn't that viable? ←
15:41:15 <cgreer> ivan: In practice that would be difficult.
Ivan Herman: In practice that would be difficult. ←
15:41:39 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:41:40 <cgreer> ... same issue in XML. XML literals rely on XML tools
... same issue in XML. XML literals rely on XML tools ←
15:41:50 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds ←
15:41:52 <cgreer> ... and the tools can produce a different literal
... and the tools can produce a different literal ←
15:41:57 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:42:07 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (83%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: markus (83%) ←
15:42:13 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:42:13 <cgreer> markus: but you can't have interoperability in this case.
Markus Lanthaler: but you can't have interoperability in this case. ←
15:42:20 <gavinc> eh, 3 or 4 months ;)
Gavin Carothers: eh, 3 or 4 months ;) ←
15:42:23 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (14%), Ivan (35%), markus (54%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (14%), Ivan (35%), markus (54%) ←
15:42:27 <cgreer> ivan: out hope is that in two years HTML5 WG will finalize
Ivan Herman: out hope is that in two years HTML5 WG will finalize ←
15:42:28 <sandro> zakim, who is talking?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:42:38 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (5%), Guus_Schreiber (9%), markus (60%)
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: PatH (5%), Guus_Schreiber (9%), markus (60%) ←
15:42:45 <cgreer> markus: Then HTML6 will come
Markus Lanthaler: Then HTML6 will come ←
15:42:56 <cgreer> gavinc: To be clear we're talking about fragment parsing algorithm, not HTML5
Gavin Carothers: To be clear we're talking about fragment parsing algorithm, not HTML5 ←
15:43:11 <cgreer> ... this is weirder than you think it is
... this is weirder than you think it is ←
15:43:16 <pfps> q+
15:43:18 <PatH> we are tslking about this: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-html
Patrick Hayes: we are tslking about this: http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf11-concepts/#section-html ←
15:43:30 <cgreer> sandro: How about two data types. HTML-String and parsed-HTML-string
Sandro Hawke: How about two data types. HTML-String and parsed-HTML-string ←
15:43:35 <Guus> ack pfps
Guus Schreiber: ack pfps ←
15:43:37 <cgreer> ... we can't define the latter yet
... we can't define the latter yet ←
15:43:53 <cgreer> pfps: I've seen a solution to this in Schema-datatypes
Peter Patel-Schneider: I've seen a solution to this in Schema-datatypes ←
15:44:02 <cgreer> ... to be compliant you can either use XML 1.0 or XML 1.1
... to be compliant you can either use XML 1.0 or XML 1.1 ←
15:44:12 <gkellogg> q+
Gregg Kellogg: q+ ←
15:44:13 <cgreer> ... which was written when 1.1 was in flux
... which was written when 1.1 was in flux ←
15:44:32 <cgreer> sandro: It's a bit analogous to our dependency on Unicode
Sandro Hawke: It's a bit analogous to our dependency on Unicode ←
15:44:46 <cgreer> ericP: But the contract with Unicode is that there will be no new punctuation
Eric Prud'hommeaux: But the contract with Unicode is that there will be no new punctuation ←
15:44:55 <cgreer> gavinc: and HTML's main goal is backwards compat
Gavin Carothers: and HTML's main goal is backwards compat ←
15:45:07 <Guus> ack gkellogg
Guus Schreiber: ack gkellogg ←
15:45:24 <cgreer> ericP: HTML doesnt provide for forward compat
Eric Prud'hommeaux: HTML doesnt provide for forward compat ←
15:45:50 <cgreer> gkellogg: Perhaps we can require that implemenations provide equality based on string comparison, but have an option to change in future
Gregg Kellogg: Perhaps we can require that implemenations provide equality based on string comparison, but have an option to change in future ←
15:46:01 <cgreer> sandro: The question is what if we do use D-entailment
Sandro Hawke: The question is what if we do use D-entailment ←
15:46:11 <gavinc> Yeah, we WANT people to do lexical-to-value mapping
Gavin Carothers: Yeah, we WANT people to do lexical-to-value mapping ←
15:46:19 <cgreer> ... we want people not to have to remember the string
... we want people not to have to remember the string ←
15:46:26 <cgreer> ... the string is gone if you parse
... the string is gone if you parse ←
15:46:39 <cgreer> ... sounds like we need two datatypes, the second one will change
... sounds like we need two datatypes, the second one will change ←
15:46:50 <cgreer> gavinc: The one that doesn't map to a value doesn't have a datatype
Gavin Carothers: The one that doesn't map to a value doesn't have a datatype ←
15:47:13 <cgreer> PatH: It's its own value space
Patrick Hayes: It's its own value space ←
15:47:20 <cgreer> sandro: The value space is 'string'
Sandro Hawke: The value space is 'string' ←
15:47:28 <cgreer> gavinc: This reads funny. lexical space and value space are the same
Gavin Carothers: This reads funny. lexical space and value space are the same ←
15:47:34 <cgreer> sandro: yep it's string with a flag
Sandro Hawke: yep it's string with a flag ←
15:47:58 <cgreer> gavinc: I'm amused
Gavin Carothers: I'm amused ←
15:48:12 <cgreer> sandro: I need to know about the flag.
Sandro Hawke: I need to know about the flag. ←
15:48:22 <cgreer> gavinc: Would then HTML entities be equivalient to same string?
Gavin Carothers: Would then HTML entities be equivalient to same string? ←
15:48:31 <cgreer> ... would seem to be no
... would seem to be no ←
15:48:56 <cgreer> ivan: I'd me more comfortable keeping what we have now, plus a little hand waving
Ivan Herman: I'd me more comfortable keeping what we have now, plus a little hand waving ←
15:49:31 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: (1) two html datatypes, parsed and unparsed; (2) one html datatype, semantics not set yet, (3) something else
STRAWPOLL: (1) two html datatypes, parsed and unparsed; (2) one html datatype, semantics not set yet, (3) something else ←
15:49:43 <sandro> 1 2
Sandro Hawke: 1 2 ←
15:50:04 <ivan> 2
Ivan Herman: 2 ←
15:50:05 <PatH> tnx ivan
Patrick Hayes: tnx ivan ←
15:50:05 <Guus> pref 2, can live with 1
Guus Schreiber: pref 2, can live with 1 ←
15:50:05 <cgreer> I prefer 2
I prefer 2 ←
15:50:05 <gavinc> 2 (lexical to value mapping to be defined later)
Gavin Carothers: 2 (lexical to value mapping to be defined later) ←
15:50:05 <gkellogg> 2
Gregg Kellogg: 2 ←
15:50:06 <AndyS> 2
Andy Seaborne: 2 ←
15:50:06 <pchampin> 2
15:50:08 <ericP> live with 1, prefer 2
Eric Prud'hommeaux: live with 1, prefer 2 ←
15:50:08 <yvesr> 2
Yves Raimond: 2 ←
15:50:10 <SteveH> 2
Steve Harris: 2 ←
15:50:12 <zwu2> 2
15:50:20 <TallTed> prefer 2, OK with 1
Ted Thibodeau: prefer 2, OK with 1 ←
15:50:27 <markus> 1 2 (would prefer to just have unparsed)
Markus Lanthaler: 1 2 (would prefer to just have unparsed) ←
15:50:33 <PatH> 3
Patrick Hayes: 3 ←
15:50:34 <Souri> 2
Souripriya Das: 2 ←
15:50:59 <gavinc> +1 PatH
Gavin Carothers: +1 PatH ←
15:51:03 <cgreer> PatH: 'something else' is that we should be explicit about defining but that it's changeable
Patrick Hayes: 'something else' is that we should be explicit about defining but that it's changeable ←
15:51:11 <cgreer> ivan: That's what I meant by 2
Ivan Herman: That's what I meant by 2 ←
15:51:31 <cgreer> ... we make it clear that it's a soft target
... we make it clear that it's a soft target ←
15:51:34 <sandro> PROPOSAL: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.
PROPOSED: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed. ←
15:52:37 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:52:40 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:52:44 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:52:46 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:52:48 <zwu2> +0
15:52:48 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
15:52:48 <gavinc> +1
Gavin Carothers: +1 ←
15:52:49 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:52:53 <sandro> guus: it's editorial how much of this we say this now.
Guus Schreiber: it's editorial how much of this we say this now. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
15:52:56 <Souri> +1
Souripriya Das: +1 ←
15:53:31 <sandro> RESOLVED: close issue-63: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed.
RESOLVED: close ISSUE-63: we'll specifying rdf:HTML by deferring the semantics (lexical-to-value mapping) to whatever is latest/greatest HTML standard. This only comes up for people trying to do D-Entailment on rdf:HTML literals --- determining equality of value, and checking for ill-typed. ←
15:53:53 <sandro> (or it was already closed, but tag this as related to issue-63)
Sandro Hawke: (or it was already closed, but tag this as related to ISSUE-63) ←
15:54:21 <PatH> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html
Patrick Hayes: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html ←
15:54:23 <cgreer> subtopic: back to issue 118
15:54:36 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
15:55:22 <Guus> PROPSED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html
PROPOSED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html ←
15:55:47 <ericP> what's the interpretation of { <s> <p> """<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>"""rdf:HTMLLiteral . } ?
Eric Prud'hommeaux: what's the interpretation of { <s> <p> """<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>"""rdf:HTMLLiteral . } ? ←
15:55:50 <ivan> +1
Ivan Herman: +1 ←
15:55:51 <pfps> +1
15:55:52 <ericP> 8.3
Eric Prud'hommeaux: 8.3 ←
15:55:53 <PatH> +1
Patrick Hayes: +1 ←
15:55:53 <gkellogg> +1
Gregg Kellogg: +1 ←
15:55:56 <TallTed> s/PROPSED/PROPOSED/
15:55:57 <TallTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:55:58 <zwu2> +1
15:56:00 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
15:56:00 <pchampin> +1
15:56:04 <yvesr> +1
Yves Raimond: +1 ←
15:56:05 <markus> +1
Markus Lanthaler: +1 ←
15:56:09 <cgreer> +1
+1 ←
15:56:22 <Guus> RESOLVED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html [17:55] <cgreer> hahah
RESOLVED: to resolve ISSUE-118 according to Pat's proposal in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2013May/0014.html [17:55] <cgreer> hahah ←
15:57:05 <cgreer> Guus: We're done with concepts and semantics.
Guus Schreiber: We're done with concepts and semantics. ←
15:57:06 <PatH> woot
Patrick Hayes: woot ←
15:57:34 <sandro> eric, that graph means that s has a p which is the html text "<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>".
Sandro Hawke: eric, that graph means that s has a p which is the html text "<script type="text/turtle"><s><p2><o2></script>". ←
15:57:37 <cgreer> Guus: Two minuts for JSON-LD and Turtle
Guus Schreiber: Two minutes for JSON-LD and Turtle ←
15:57:41 <cgreer> s/minuts/minutes/
15:57:57 <cgreer> Guus: How about that turtle test suite?
Guus Schreiber: How about that turtle test suite? ←
15:58:03 <cgreer> gavinc: blocked by feature at risk
Gavin Carothers: blocked by feature at risk ←
15:58:11 <cgreer> ericP: Also 0 in literals
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Also 0 in literals ←
15:58:20 <cgreer> gavinc: That's fine in test cases
Gavin Carothers: That's fine in test cases ←
15:58:34 <cgreer> ... we should datatype them something else if they're not strings
... we should datatype them something else if they're not strings ←
15:59:01 <cgreer> gavinc: I started the action for feature at risk.
Gavin Carothers: I started the action for feature at risk. ←
15:59:03 <sandro> +1 have some test cases on "\0"^^<example.org/something>
Sandro Hawke: +1 have some test cases on "\0"^^<example.org/something> ←
15:59:20 <cgreer> ... lots of 'meh' on prefixes
... lots of 'meh' on prefixes ←
15:59:26 <cgreer> ... and some who don't like it
... and some who don't like it ←
15:59:38 <cgreer> Guus: please complete action by next week
Guus Schreiber: please complete action by next week ←
15:59:47 <cgreer> sandro: is everything on comments page?
Sandro Hawke: is everything on comments page? ←
15:59:53 <markus> just realized that JSON-LD LC ends next week
Markus Lanthaler: just realized that JSON-LD LC ends next week ←
15:59:57 <cgreer> gavinc: yes, no positive ones, just two negative ones.
Gavin Carothers: yes, no positive ones, just two negative ones. ←
16:00:10 <PatH> gotta run. bye.
Patrick Hayes: gotta run. bye. ←
16:00:14 <Zakim> -PatH
Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH ←
16:00:20 <cgreer> ... strongest argument is that we've not changed turtle except this
... strongest argument is that we've not changed turtle except this ←
16:00:28 <cgreer> sandro: but that's not true
Sandro Hawke: but that's not true ←
16:00:28 <ericP> i would characterize DBooth's response to those comments as positive
Eric Prud'hommeaux: i would characterize DBooth's response to those comments as positive ←
16:00:34 <cgreer> Guus: but we are done for this week.
Guus Schreiber: but we are done for this week. ←
16:00:47 <Zakim> -Ivan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan ←
16:00:49 <Zakim> -gkellogg
Zakim IRC Bot: -gkellogg ←
16:00:49 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:00:50 <Zakim> -yvesr
Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr ←
16:00:50 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
16:00:51 <Zakim> -markus
Zakim IRC Bot: -markus ←
16:00:53 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:00:54 <Zakim> -cgreer
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer ←
16:00:54 <Zakim> -SteveH
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH ←
16:00:54 <Zakim> -zwu2
Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2 ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> -GavinC
Zakim IRC Bot: -GavinC ←
16:00:57 <Zakim> -Souri
Zakim IRC Bot: -Souri ←
16:01:00 <Zakim> -AndyS
Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS ←
16:01:07 <Zakim> -pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: -pchampin ←
16:01:09 <Guus> trackbot, end meeting
Guus Schreiber: trackbot, end meeting ←
16:01:09 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:01:09 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed, Ivan, pfps, AndyS, yvesr, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus, zwu2, pchampin
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been Guus_Schreiber, GavinC, Sandro, TallTed, Ivan, pfps, AndyS, yvesr, gkellogg, SteveH, cgreer, Souri, EricP, PatH, markus, zwu2, pchampin ←
16:01:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:01:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:01:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-actions.rdf :
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-actions.rdf : ←
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> ACTION: PatH to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [1]
ACTION: PatH to add wording to Semantics to again define the merge of two RDF graphs [1] ←
16:01:18 <RRSAgent> recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc#T15-22-48
RRSAgent IRC Bot: recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/05/01-rdf-wg-irc#T15-22-48 ←
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