edit

RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 24 August 2011

Seen
Alex Hall, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ian Davis, Ivan Herman, Lee Feigenbaum, Manu Sporny, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Scott Bauer, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Thomas Steiner, Yves Raimond
Regrets
Pierre-Antoine Champin, Antoine Zimmermann, David Wood, Guus Schreiber
Chair
Ivan Herman
Scribe
Thomas Steiner, Manu Sporny
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions

None.

Topics
14:13:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-rdf-wg-irc

14:13:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:13:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

14:13:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 47 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 47 minutes

14:13:40 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
14:13:40 <trackbot> Date: 24 August 2011
14:13:51 <ivan> Chair: ivan
14:51:12 <ivan> Regrets: pchampin, azimmerm, David Wood, Guus Schreiber
14:55:35 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 41 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started

14:55:42 <Zakim> +gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: +gavinc

14:55:52 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

14:55:52 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

14:55:54 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

14:58:54 <manu1> zakim, code?

Manu Sporny: zakim, code?

14:58:54 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), manu1

14:59:04 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:59:10 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P2

Manu Sporny: zakim, I am ??P2

14:59:10 <Zakim> +manu1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +manu1; got it

14:59:31 <Zakim> +tomayac

Zakim IRC Bot: +tomayac

15:00:10 <Zakim> + +44.207.923.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.207.923.aaaa

15:00:38 <ivan> zakim, aaaa is Yves

Ivan Herman: zakim, aaaa is Yves

15:00:38 <Zakim> +Yves; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yves; got it

15:01:03 <ivan> scribenick: tomayac

(Scribe set to Thomas Steiner)

15:01:16 <moustaki> Zakim, who is on the phone?

Yves Raimond: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:16 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, Yves

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, Yves

15:01:43 <ivan> -> Last meeting's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-17

Ivan Herman: -> Last meeting's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-17

15:01:46 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:01:53 <ivan> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

15:02:02 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

15:02:02 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:02:11 <SteveH_> Zakim, what's the code?

Steve Harris: Zakim, what's the code?

15:02:11 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), SteveH_

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), SteveH_

15:02:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:02:28 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:02:28 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:02:30 <yvesr> Zakim, Yves is me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, Yves is me

15:02:30 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +yvesr; got it

15:02:31 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:02:33 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:02:33 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:02:36 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:02:36 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted

15:02:39 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

15:02:44 <SteveH_> Zakim, ??p13 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??p13 is me

15:02:44 <Zakim> +SteveH_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH_; got it

15:03:00 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer

15:03:01 <iand> zakim, +??p12 is me

Ian Davis: zakim, +??p12 is me

15:03:01 <Zakim> sorry, iand, I do not recognize a party named '+??p12'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, iand, I do not recognize a party named '+??p12'

15:03:02 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

15:03:06 <iand> zakim, +??P12 is me

Ian Davis: zakim, +??P12 is me

15:03:06 <Zakim> sorry, iand, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, iand, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12'

15:03:08 <SteveH> Zakim, SteveH_ is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, SteveH_ is me

15:03:08 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:03:14 <iand> zakim, ??P12 is me

Ian Davis: zakim, ??P12 is me

15:03:14 <Zakim> +iand; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +iand; got it

15:03:17 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, yvesr (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), iand, SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, yvesr (muted), AlexHall, MacTed (muted), iand, SteveH

15:03:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see iand, SteveH, AlexHall, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, tomayac, manu1, gavinc, ericP, sandro, trackbot, NickH, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see iand, SteveH, AlexHall, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, tomayac, manu1, gavinc, ericP, sandro, trackbot, NickH, manu

15:03:38 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: +Scott_Bauer

15:03:42 <ivan> Last meeting's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-17

Ivan Herman: Last meeting's minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/meeting/2011-08-17

15:03:57 <ivan> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 17 Aug telecon

Ivan Herman: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 17 Aug telecon

15:04:14 <tomayac> Topic: Accept Minutes from August 17

2. Accept Minutes from August 17

15:04:39 <tomayac> issues with many red boxes. ericP was the scribe

issues with many red boxes. ericP was the scribe

15:05:00 <tomayac> ivan: seems to have been a problem with the script. sandro takes care of that.

Ivan Herman: seems to have been a problem with the script. sandro takes care of that.

15:05:21 <tomayac> ivan: maybe keep the minutes open, ask ericP, sandro to review.

Ivan Herman: maybe keep the minutes open, ask ericP, sandro to review.

15:05:24 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:05:47 <tomayac> PROPOSED keep the minutes open and ask sandro and ericP to review them

PROPOSED keep the minutes open and ask sandro and ericP to review them

15:05:47 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/pendingreview

15:06:10 <tomayac> ivan: most actions on people who are absent

Ivan Herman: most actions on people who are absent

15:06:10 <ivan> ACTION-74?

Ivan Herman: ACTION-74?

15:06:10 <trackbot> ACTION-74 -- Manu Sporny to send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd -- due 2011-08-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-74 -- Manu Sporny to send JSON discussion preparation message to public-rdf-wd -- due 2011-08-24 -- PENDINGREVIEW

15:06:10 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/74

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/74

15:06:24 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0060.html

Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0060.html

15:06:27 <tomayac> manu: action-74 has been done

Manu Sporny: ACTION-74 has been done

15:06:54 <ivan> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

Ivan Herman: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/open

15:06:56 <tomayac> ivan: for the other actions, we have to wait for people to come back

Ivan Herman: for the other actions, we have to wait for people to come back

15:07:07 <ivan> ACTION-69?

Ivan Herman: ACTION-69?

15:07:07 <trackbot> ACTION-69 -- Gavin Carothers to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status -- due 2011-07-27 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-69 -- Gavin Carothers to update Turtle issue list to reflect current status -- due 2011-07-27 -- OPEN

15:07:07 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/69

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/69

15:07:09 <tomayac> ivan: one action on gavin

Ivan Herman: one action on gavin

15:07:20 <tomayac> gavin: action on me is done

Gavin Carothers: action on me is done

15:07:26 <PatH> I will be on IRC but probably not on the phone for this telecon.

Patrick Hayes: I will be on IRC but probably not on the phone for this telecon.

15:07:31 <tomayac> ivan: action-69 closed

Ivan Herman: ACTION-69 closed

15:07:38 <tomayac> ivan: action-78 closed

Ivan Herman: ACTION-78 closed

15:07:50 <tomayac> ivan: one action on pat. pat on irc.

Ivan Herman: one action on pat. pat on irc.

15:08:06 <tomayac> ivan: i will take care of open actions to be closed

Ivan Herman: i will take care of open actions to be closed

15:08:12 <ivan> Topic: F2F

3. F2F

15:08:15 <Zakim> + +44.164.235.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.164.235.aacc

15:08:18 <tomayac> ivan: f2f

Ivan Herman: f2f

15:08:28 <NickH> Zakim, +44.164.235.aacc is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, +44.164.235.aacc is me

15:08:28 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:08:45 <tomayac> ivan: pending issue for the f2f counterpart

Ivan Herman: pending issue for the f2f counterpart

15:08:56 <yvesr> Zakim, unmute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, unmute me

15:08:56 <Zakim> yvesr should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should no longer be muted

15:09:02 <tomayac> ivan: people interested in a bbc-hosted site

Ivan Herman: people interested in a bbc-hosted site

15:09:09 <tomayac> ivan: offer still valid?

Ivan Herman: offer still valid?

15:09:22 <tomayac> yves: pending manager approval

Yves Raimond: pending manager approval

15:09:28 <PatH> I have a very old action which I confess I no longer can remember what exactly it actions me to do. Maybe someone with a better memory can jog me off-line in due course.

Patrick Hayes: I have a very old action which I confess I no longer can remember what exactly it actions me to do. Maybe someone with a better memory can jog me off-line in due course.

15:09:32 <tomayac> ivan: where is that?

Ivan Herman: where is that?

15:09:48 <tomayac> yves: says location

Yves Raimond: says location

15:10:13 <tomayac> ivan: hoping this will work out

Ivan Herman: hoping this will work out

15:10:15 <gavinc> Not exactly cheap in Boston either. :( Gone up since I was last there

Gavin Carothers: Not exactly cheap in Boston either. :( Gone up since I was last there

15:10:27 <tomayac> ivan: anything else on that, yves?

Ivan Herman: anything else on that, yves?

15:10:42 <tomayac> ivan: will be organized by PERSON

Ivan Herman: will be organized by Olivier Thereaud

15:10:55 <ivan> s/PERSON/Olivier Thereaud/
15:10:56 <PatH> or persons unknown?

Patrick Hayes: or persons unknown?

15:11:07 <yvesr> Thereaux

Yves Raimond: Thereaux

15:11:25 <ivan> Topic: JSON work progress & planning

4. JSON work progress & planning

15:11:32 <yvesr> Zakim, mute me

Yves Raimond: Zakim, mute me

15:11:34 <Zakim> yvesr should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: yvesr should now be muted

15:11:39 <tomayac> ivan: unsure where to start

Ivan Herman: unsure where to start

15:11:50 <tomayac> ivan: w/o going into the details

Ivan Herman: w/o going into the details

15:12:02 <tomayac> ivan: manu and ian, just say a view words on the documents

Ivan Herman: manu and ian, just say a view words on the documents

15:12:28 <tomayac> ian: based on the talis format

Ian Davis: based on the talis format

15:12:37 <tomayac> ian: put up a working draft

Ian Davis: put up a working draft

15:12:43 <tomayac> ian: came out of the f2f

Ian Davis: came out of the f2f

15:12:54 <tomayac> ian: draft is an overview of the format

Ian Davis: draft is an overview of the format

15:12:57 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:13:06 <PatH> to be, or not to be, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind of man to take up arms against a sea of hackers, and by opposing RDF them, or...

Patrick Hayes: to be, or not to be, that is the question. Whether 'tis nobler in the mind of man to take up arms against a sea of hackers, and by opposing RDF them, or...

15:13:34 <tomayac> ivan: to have an idea, beyond the spec, do you have an idea of # of implementations and adopters, ian?

Ivan Herman: to have an idea, beyond the spec, do you have an idea of # of implementations and adopters, ian?

15:13:41 <tomayac> ian: at least half a dozen

Ian Davis: at least half a dozen

15:13:53 <manu1> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0060.html

Manu Sporny: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0060.html

15:13:54 <tomayac> manu: wrote a quick email

Manu Sporny: wrote a quick email

15:14:13 <tomayac> manu: based on initial set of feature of digital bazaar

Manu Sporny: based on initial set of feature of digital bazaar

15:14:20 <tomayac> manu: about 90% feature-complete

Manu Sporny: about 90% feature-complete

15:14:36 <tomayac> manu: continuing on public-linked-json@

Manu Sporny: continuing on public-linked-json@

15:14:50 <tomayac> manu: including non-typical semwebbers

Manu Sporny: including non-typical semwebbers

15:15:07 <tomayac> manu: editorially 70-80% feature-complete

Manu Sporny: editorially 70-80% feature-complete

15:15:25 <tomayac> manu: four interoperable implementations, javascript, python, php, c++

Manu Sporny: four interoperable implementations, javascript, python, php, c++

15:15:31 <tomayac> manu: erlang in the works

Manu Sporny: erlang in the works

15:15:38 <tomayac> manu: people seem to like it

Manu Sporny: people seem to like it

15:15:47 <tomayac> manu: implemented in seevl.net by apassant

Manu Sporny: implemented in seevl.net by apassant

15:16:08 <tomayac> ivan: let's start w/ the knife fight

Ivan Herman: let's start w/ the knife fight

15:16:23 <tomayac> ivan: calling thomas

Ivan Herman: calling thomas

15:16:45 <ivan> scribenick: manu1

(Scribe set to Manu Sporny)

15:17:07 <manu1> Thomas: I sent an e-mail to the mailing list - JSON Emergency Brake - a bit controversial

Thomas Steiner: I sent an e-mail to the mailing list - JSON Emergency Brake - a bit controversial

15:17:26 <manu1> Thomas: I made sure to check w/ all parties involved before sending it out...

Thomas Steiner: I made sure to check w/ all parties involved before sending it out...

15:17:32 <ivan> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0131.html Thomas' email

Ivan Herman: -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Aug/0131.html Thomas' email

15:17:42 <manu1> Thomas: Tried not to offend anyone...

Thomas Steiner: Tried not to offend anyone...

15:18:31 <manu1> Thomas: I was co-editor of JSON spec. Ian comes up w/ first commit for RDF/JSON - then we could iterate over it.

Thomas Steiner: I was co-editor of JSON spec. Ian comes up w/ first commit for RDF/JSON - then we could iterate over it.

15:19:35 <manu1> Thomas: I was involved in public-linked-json list - paid attention as a listener... in-between two specs... overall, I felt that what we see in RDF/JSON is something that comes from the RDF camp - it doesn't really feel like JSON at all. We need to pull the emergency brake and stop the work on RDF/JSON and focus on JSON-LD.

Thomas Steiner: I was involved in public-linked-json list - paid attention as a listener... in-between two specs... overall, I felt that what we see in RDF/JSON is something that comes from the RDF camp - it doesn't really feel like JSON at all. We need to pull the emergency brake and stop the work on RDF/JSON and focus on JSON-LD.

15:20:06 <manu1> Thomas: From the POV of a JavaScript developer, it doesn't feel like native JSON. It's a culture clash...

Thomas Steiner: From the POV of a JavaScript developer, it doesn't feel like native JSON. It's a culture clash...

15:20:30 <manu1> Thomas: JSON-LD is relatively easily mapped to triples. So, why do we have both?

Thomas Steiner: JSON-LD is relatively easily mapped to triples. So, why do we have both?

15:20:39 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:21:01 <iand> q+ to say I am agnostic

Ian Davis: q+ to say I am agnostic

15:21:05 <manu1> Thomas: RDF/JSON feels like NTriples in JSON.

Thomas Steiner: RDF/JSON feels like NTriples in JSON.

15:21:20 <PatH> Is there any RDF that CANT be represented in JSON-LD?

Patrick Hayes: Is there any RDF that CANT be represented in JSON-LD?

15:21:20 <manu1> q+ to say that I feel pretty strongly about JSON-LD

q+ to say that I feel pretty strongly about JSON-LD

15:21:25 <ivan> scribenick: tomayac

(Scribe set to Thomas Steiner)

15:21:32 <ivan> ack iand

Ivan Herman: ack iand

15:21:32 <Zakim> iand, you wanted to say I am agnostic

Zakim IRC Bot: iand, you wanted to say I am agnostic

15:21:33 <LeeF> It's definitely not a matter of "should be used for". More a matter of "is used for"

Lee Feigenbaum: It's definitely not a matter of "should be used for". More a matter of "is used for"

15:21:45 <tomayac> ian: i am agnostic

Ian Davis: i am agnostic

15:21:58 <tomayac> ian: it's not ideomatic json

Ian Davis: it's not ideomatic json

15:22:10 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:22:26 <ivan> ack manu1

Ivan Herman: ack manu1

15:22:26 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to say that I feel pretty strongly about JSON-LD

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to say that I feel pretty strongly about JSON-LD

15:22:33 <tomayac> ian: just a convenience format, mostly out of talis' needs

Ian Davis: just a convenience format, mostly out of talis' needs

15:22:38 <gavinc> +q to say that TopQuadrant's position has changed

Gavin Carothers: +q to say that TopQuadrant's position has changed

15:22:42 <tomayac> manu: not so agnostic, feel strongly about json-ld

Manu Sporny: not so agnostic, feel strongly about json-ld

15:23:00 <tomayac> manu: main concern i have, we could do a lot for linked data adoption

Manu Sporny: main concern i have, we could do a lot for linked data adoption

15:23:17 <tomayac> manu: i feel that json-ld is targeted at an audience we don't cover yet

Manu Sporny: i feel that json-ld is targeted at an audience we don't cover yet

15:23:27 <tomayac> manu: they don't want to go into the sparql, triple world

Manu Sporny: they don't want to go into the sparql, triple world

15:23:33 <PatH> my question is: JSON-LD maps to triples, but can it encode any RDF at all? Or is some part of RDF missing? What would it take to extend json-ld to cover all of RDF?

Patrick Hayes: my question is: JSON-LD maps to triples, but can it encode any RDF at all? Or is some part of RDF missing? What would it take to extend json-ld to cover all of RDF?

15:23:38 <tomayac> manu: they want linked data, but don#t want to do much to get it

Manu Sporny: they want linked data, but don#t want to do much to get it

15:23:54 <tomayac> manu: data exchange format for rdf people

Manu Sporny: data exchange format for rdf people

15:24:00 <gavinc> PatH, I think rather JSON-LD can encode things that RDF -can't-.

Gavin Carothers: PatH, I think rather JSON-LD can encode things that RDF -can't-.

15:24:12 <PatH> Maube , gavin, but what about the other way?

Patrick Hayes: Maube , gavin, but what about the other way?

15:24:16 <tomayac> manu: you already have ntriples, rdf/xml, turtle, etc.

Manu Sporny: you already have ntriples, rdf/xml, turtle, etc.

15:24:21 <LeeF> And yet despite those, people use RDF/JSON (or similar)

Lee Feigenbaum: And yet despite those, people use RDF/JSON (or similar)

15:24:35 <LeeF> This is a standardization group.

Lee Feigenbaum: This is a standardization group.

15:24:35 <tomayac> manu: creating ntriples in json doesn't solve any problems imho

Manu Sporny: creating ntriples in json doesn't solve any problems imho

15:24:58 <iand> wasn't this all sketched out in a table by sandro?

Ian Davis: wasn't this all sketched out in a table by sandro?

15:25:02 <tomayac> manu: i feel that it doesn't necessarily grow the number of linked data

Manu Sporny: i feel that it doesn't necessarily grow the number of linked data

15:25:16 <LeeF> iand, yes, though i'm not sure the table was ever accepted by everyone :)

Lee Feigenbaum: iand, yes, though i'm not sure the table was ever accepted by everyone :)

15:25:17 <tomayac> manu: json-ld attempts to move the existing json already oth there to a new level

Manu Sporny: json-ld attempts to move the existing json already oth there to a new level

15:25:30 <tomayac> manu: in order to get far more meaning

Manu Sporny: in order to get far more meaning

15:25:42 <tomayac> manu: converned of the use cases

Manu Sporny: converned of the use cases

15:25:55 <tomayac> manu: we have two technologies to tackle those

Manu Sporny: we have two technologies to tackle those

15:26:08 <tomayac> manu: it's like the microdata, rdfa thing again

Manu Sporny: it's like the microdata, rdfa thing again

15:26:22 <tomayac> manu: ivan, you didn't want this comparison

Manu Sporny: ivan, you didn't want this comparison

15:26:29 <tomayac> manu: heavy overlap of use cases

Manu Sporny: heavy overlap of use cases

15:26:33 <PatH> I see a future here where json-ld seduces a lot of people into useiing RDF wihtout realizing they are using it. Which is great, but then what happens when they wake up and smell the RDF coffee: are they stranded by the limitations of json-ld, or can they move smpoothly intobeing real semweb people without having to learn a whole new set of tools?

Patrick Hayes: I see a future here where json-ld seduces a lot of people into useiing RDF wihtout realizing they are using it. Which is great, but then what happens when they wake up and smell the RDF coffee: are they stranded by the limitations of json-ld, or can they move smpoothly intobeing real semweb people without having to learn a whole new set of tools?

15:26:44 <tomayac> manu: concerned that two last calls are published

Manu Sporny: concerned that two last calls are published

15:26:50 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:26:53 <tomayac> manu: people might get very confused

Manu Sporny: people might get very confused

15:27:03 <tomayac> manu: hoping we avoid that

Manu Sporny: hoping we avoid that

15:27:15 <tomayac> manu: no one talked about microdata two years ago

Manu Sporny: no one talked about microdata two years ago

15:27:19 <gavinc> PatH, I don't think there is any RDF that can't be expressed in JSON-LD

Gavin Carothers: PatH, I don't think there is any RDF that can't be expressed in JSON-LD

15:27:37 <ivan> ack gavinc

Ivan Herman: ack gavinc

15:27:37 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to say that TopQuadrant's position has changed

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to say that TopQuadrant's position has changed

15:27:44 <PatH> OK, great. Then I vote that we adopt json-ld

Patrick Hayes: OK, great. Then I vote that we adopt json-ld

15:27:45 <iand> actually I see it differently, people may be seduced by having a nice JSON format so they write systems to consume it, but why do they need RDF at all?

Ian Davis: actually I see it differently, people may be seduced by having a nice JSON format so they write systems to consume it, but why do they need RDF at all?

15:27:57 <tomayac> gavin: our position has changed a bit

Gavin Carothers: our position has changed a bit

15:28:10 <tomayac> gavin: we spent some time using and looking at json-ld

Gavin Carothers: we spent some time using and looking at json-ld

15:28:13 <PatH> Well, that is their problem. If they don;t need it, fine. BUt I supsect that many of them will, and those are the ones I care about.

Patrick Hayes: Well, that is their problem. If they don;t need it, fine. BUt I supsect that many of them will, and those are the ones I care about.

15:28:24 <tomayac> gavin: we haven't implemented rdf/json

Gavin Carothers: we haven't implemented rdf/json

15:28:40 <iand> i think it's a mistake to hide the rdf model from developers because it's non-intuitive for many OO developers

Ian Davis: i think it's a mistake to hide the rdf model from developers because it's non-intuitive for many OO developers

15:28:46 <tomayac> gavin: unlikely we will implement rdf/json, we see limited value, different from the opinion we had a couple of months ago

Gavin Carothers: unlikely we will implement rdf/json, we see limited value, different from the opinion we had a couple of months ago

15:29:06 <tomayac> ivan: on path's question

Ivan Herman: on pat's question

15:29:08 <PatH> If nobody is going to implement it, its dead in the water.

Patrick Hayes: If nobody is going to implement it, its dead in the water.

15:29:17 <ivan> s/path's/pat's/
15:29:19 <tomayac> manu: answering path's question

Manu Sporny: answering pat's question

15:29:26 <gavinc> I will say that TQ isn't everyone ;)

Gavin Carothers: I will say that TQ isn't everyone ;)

15:29:29 <NickH> RDF/XML = RDF for XML developers

Nicholas Humfrey: RDF/XML = RDF for XML developers

15:29:29 <NickH> JSON-LD = RDF for JSON developers

Nicholas Humfrey: JSON-LD = RDF for JSON developers

15:29:31 <tomayac> manu: no rdf that can't be expressed in json-ld

Manu Sporny: no rdf that can't be expressed in json-ld

15:29:32 <NickH> ?

Nicholas Humfrey: ?

15:29:35 <ivan> s/path's/pat's/
15:29:35 <iand> manu1: does it have graph support?

Ian Davis: manu1, does it have graph support?

15:29:36 <gavinc> And there are implementations of RDF/JSON

Gavin Carothers: And there are implementations of RDF/JSON

15:29:42 <NickH> Worried that JSON-LD hides the triples too much

Nicholas Humfrey: Worried that JSON-LD hides the triples too much

15:29:47 <tomayac> manu: working on lists

Manu Sporny: working on lists

15:29:48 <gavinc> RDF/XML is NOT RDF for XML developers, take that back! ;)

Gavin Carothers: RDF/XML is NOT RDF for XML developers, take that back! ;)

15:29:58 <tomayac> ivan: does it have graph support?

Ivan Herman: does it have graph support?

15:30:07 <tomayac> manu: what do you mean?

Manu Sporny: what do you mean?

15:30:08 <PatH> Hey, rdf?XML hides the triples very effectively.

Patrick Hayes: Hey, rdf?XML hides the triples very effectively.

15:30:15 <PatH> rdf/xml

Patrick Hayes: rdf/xml

15:30:15 <LeeF> s/manu1:/manu1,/
15:30:19 <tomayac> ian: (clarifies)

Ian Davis: (clarifies)

15:30:20 <NickH> PatH: yes!

Patrick Hayes: yes! [ Scribe Assist by Nicholas Humfrey ]

15:30:36 <tomayac> manu: we can do graph literals, and we could support graph identifiers

Manu Sporny: we can do graph literals, and we could support graph identifiers

15:30:46 <ericP> <g1> { <s1> <p1> <o1> } <g2> { <s2> <p2> <o2> } vs. <s1> <p1> { <s2> <p2> <o2> }

Eric Prud'hommeaux: <g1> { <s1> <p1> <o1> } <g2> { <s2> <p2> <o2> } vs. <s1> <p1> { <s2> <p2> <o2> }

15:30:52 <ericP> i read graph literals as the latter

Eric Prud'hommeaux: i read graph literals as the latter

15:30:57 <PatH> what about blank nodes? I dont see how to get them into json-ld from a quick read.

Patrick Hayes: what about blank nodes? I dont see how to get them into json-ld from a quick read.

15:31:50 <PatH> I guess that is meta-scribing.

Patrick Hayes: I guess that is meta-scribing.

15:32:03 <tomayac> ivan: what about blank nodes

Ivan Herman: what about blank nodes

15:32:08 <tomayac> manu: full blank node support

Manu Sporny: full blank node support

15:32:18 <PatH> OK, great. I'm a believer.

Patrick Hayes: OK, great. I'm a believer.

15:32:22 <tomayac> manu: people wanted us to describe the full process w/o calling rdf

Manu Sporny: people wanted us to describe the full process w/o calling rdf

15:32:35 <tomayac> manu: we were able to not reinvent rdf

Manu Sporny: we were able to not reinvent rdf

15:32:44 <NickH> Does JSON-LD have any relation to RDFa profiles?

Nicholas Humfrey: Does JSON-LD have any relation to RDFa profiles?

15:32:46 <tomayac> manu: we say unlabeled node instead of blank node

Manu Sporny: we say unlabeled node instead of blank node

15:33:07 <ericP> "unlabeled node" is even consistent with the RDF concepts

Eric Prud'hommeaux: "unlabeled node" is even consistent with the RDF concepts

15:33:08 <tomayac> manu: blank node support is there, and it made the normalization algorithm a nitemare

Manu Sporny: blank node support is there, and it made the normalization algorithm a nitemare

15:33:26 <ericP> q?

Eric Prud'hommeaux: q?

15:33:38 <MacTed> q+

Ted Thibodeau: q+

15:33:40 <tomayac> nickh: does json-ld have any relation to rdfa profiles?

Nicholas Humfrey: does json-ld have any relation to rdfa profiles?

15:33:44 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:33:44 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:33:46 <tomayac> nickh: it seems very similar

Nicholas Humfrey: it seems very similar

15:34:03 <tomayac> nickh: we don't want to make the same error as w/ rdf/xml w/ hiding triples

Nicholas Humfrey: we don't want to make the same error as w/ rdf/xml w/ hiding triples

15:34:17 <tomayac> manu: the only relation to rdfa profiles is the @context

Manu Sporny: the only relation to rdfa profiles is the @context

15:34:34 <manu1> "@context": "http://example.org/mycontext"

Manu Sporny: "@context": "http://example.org/mycontext"

15:34:39 <tomayac> manu: in @context you can define the context

Manu Sporny: in @context you can define the context

15:34:58 <tomayac> manu: meant to be put inline, but would be nice to be able to just declare it somewhere

Manu Sporny: meant to be put inline, but would be nice to be able to just declare it somewhere

15:35:00 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:35:13 <tomayac> manu: it can be a separate document

Manu Sporny: it can be a separate document

15:35:34 <tomayac> manu: same format as inline, just as a separate document

Manu Sporny: same format as inline, just as a separate document

15:35:43 <tomayac> manu: it's a simple key/value map

Manu Sporny: it's a simple key/value map

15:35:51 <tomayac> manu: it has also type coercion rules

Manu Sporny: it has also type coercion rules

15:36:04 <tomayac> manu: we don't want to make the rdf/xml error of hiding triples

Manu Sporny: we don't want to make the rdf/xml error of hiding triples

15:36:09 <tomayac> manu: we do this error

Manu Sporny: we do this error

15:36:13 <tomayac> manu: we hide triples

Manu Sporny: we hide triples

15:36:27 <tomayac> manu: we wanted to present developers objects, not triples

Manu Sporny: we wanted to present developers objects, not triples

15:36:40 <ivan> ack MacTed

Ivan Herman: ack MacTed

15:36:44 <MacTed> RDF/JSON is limited to RDF.  JSON-LD allows for other Linked Data models/implementations -- *with* full support for RDF.

Ted Thibodeau: RDF/JSON is limited to RDF. JSON-LD allows for other Linked Data models/implementations -- *with* full support for RDF.

15:36:44 <MacTed> RDF is limited to HTTP IRIs.  JSON-LD allows for non-HTTP IRIs, among other things.

Ted Thibodeau: RDF is limited to HTTP IRIs. JSON-LD allows for non-HTTP IRIs, among other things.

15:36:45 <tomayac> manu: triples can be easily and losslessly extracted, though

Manu Sporny: triples can be easily and losslessly extracted, though

15:37:05 <tomayac> macted: json-ld seems to be a json superset

Ted Thibodeau: json-ld seems to be a json superset

15:37:47 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:37:48 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:37:48 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:37:51 <tomayac> macted: believe that json-ld won't break any rdf

Ted Thibodeau: believe that json-ld won't break any rdf

15:37:54 <ivan> ack me

Ivan Herman: ack me

15:38:08 <NickH> Can you parse something similar to Talis JSON as JSON-LD?

Nicholas Humfrey: Can you parse something similar to Talis JSON as JSON-LD?

15:38:10 <tomayac> ivan: i don't know whether we need to go into too much technical details

Ivan Herman: i don't know whether we need to go into too much technical details

15:38:19 <tomayac> ivan: rdfa has moved away from profiles

Ivan Herman: rdfa has moved away from profiles

15:38:20 <iand> NickH: not really

Nicholas Humfrey: not really [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ]

15:38:34 <tomayac> ivan: a little amazed that json-ld still uses profiles

Ivan Herman: a little amazed that json-ld still uses profiles

15:38:41 <iand> q+ to ask about datatypes

Ian Davis: q+ to ask about datatypes

15:38:45 <NickH> ok, thanks

Nicholas Humfrey: ok, thanks

15:38:47 <ivan> ack iand

Ivan Herman: ack iand

15:38:47 <Zakim> iand, you wanted to ask about datatypes

Zakim IRC Bot: iand, you wanted to ask about datatypes

15:38:51 <tomayac> manu: we do it, as web devs are a different crowd than rdf people

Manu Sporny: we do it, as web devs are a different crowd than rdf people

15:39:38 <gavinc> +q to mention that the RDF WG may NOT be the best place to finish developing JSON-LD

Gavin Carothers: +q to mention that the RDF WG may NOT be the best place to finish developing JSON-LD

15:40:02 <iand> my question was can json-ld represent properties that have multiple values with different datatypes

Ian Davis: my question was can json-ld represent properties that have multiple values with different datatypes

15:40:04 <gavinc> iand: Can you have properties with values with different datatypes?

Ian Davis: Can you have properties with values with different datatypes? [ Scribe Assist by Gavin Carothers ]

15:40:17 <manu1> "foo:bar": [{"@iri": "http://example.org"}, {"@literal": "foo"}, {"@literal": "foo", "@datatype": "xsd:bar"}]

Manu Sporny: "foo:bar": [{"@iri": "http://example.org"}, {"@literal": "foo"}, {"@literal": "foo", "@datatype": "xsd:bar"}]

15:40:31 <tomayac> manu: responding to ian's question via code sample

Manu Sporny: responding to ian's question via code sample

15:40:54 <tomayac> ian: parsing the json, yes, question answered

Ian Davis: parsing the json, yes, question answered

15:41:00 <tomayac> ivan: how do we move forward?

Ivan Herman: how do we move forward?

15:41:10 <tomayac> ivan: my understanding from the amsterdam f2f

Ivan Herman: my understanding from the amsterdam f2f

15:41:29 <tomayac> ivan: we were moving towards rdf/json as low level exchange format

Ivan Herman: we were moving towards rdf/json as low level exchange format

15:41:39 <tomayac> ivan: and json-ld in an incubator mode

Ivan Herman: and json-ld in an incubator mode

15:41:49 <tomayac> ivan: at some time look at json-ld again

Ivan Herman: at some time look at json-ld again

15:41:58 <PatH> FWIW, my only gripe with the -ld document so far is some minor wording changes (mostly avoiding the word 'define' in various places).

Patrick Hayes: FWIW, my only gripe with the -ld document so far is some minor wording changes (mostly avoiding the word 'define' in various places).

15:42:24 <manu1> PatH, the language is rough and needs to be cleaned up...

Manu Sporny: PatH, the language is rough and needs to be cleaned up...

15:42:25 <tomayac> ivan: has the incubator mode of json-ld come to a stage where we can look at it again

Ivan Herman: has the incubator mode of json-ld come to a stage where we can look at it again

15:42:45 <tomayac> tomayac: +1 on having a look at it again

Thomas Steiner: +1 on having a look at it again

15:42:47 <gavinc> +1 to looking at JSON-LD again

Gavin Carothers: +1 to looking at JSON-LD again

15:42:48 <manu1> +1 to look at JSON-LD again.

Manu Sporny: +1 to look at JSON-LD again.

15:42:49 <iand> happy for WG to look at json-ld again

Ian Davis: happy for WG to look at json-ld again

15:42:51 <iand> +1

Ian Davis: +1

15:42:52 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:42:52 <LeeF> -1

Lee Feigenbaum: -1

15:42:56 <NickH>  +1 to look at JSON-LD again.

Nicholas Humfrey: +1 to look at JSON-LD again.

15:43:06 <tomayac> ivan: leef, can you explain?

Ivan Herman: leef, can you explain?

15:43:06 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:43:12 <gavinc> q?

Gavin Carothers: q?

15:43:18 <tomayac> leef: i don't think this wg is the right group

Lee Feigenbaum: i don't think this wg is the right group

15:43:21 <manu1> q+ to discuss the right group

Manu Sporny: q+ to discuss the right group

15:43:34 <yvesr> +1

Yves Raimond: +1

15:43:36 <tomayac> leef: it should be addressed more by a web apps-ish group

Lee Feigenbaum: it should be addressed more by a web apps-ish group

15:43:41 <ivan> ack gavinc

Ivan Herman: ack gavinc

15:43:41 <Zakim> gavinc, you wanted to mention that the RDF WG may NOT be the best place to finish developing JSON-LD

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc, you wanted to mention that the RDF WG may NOT be the best place to finish developing JSON-LD

15:43:43 <tomayac> leef: just look up the old minutes

Lee Feigenbaum: just look up the old minutes

15:43:51 <tomayac> gavin: sharing lee's concern

Gavin Carothers: sharing lee's concern

15:43:52 <PatH> I dont see 'look at' as meaning 'take control of'.

Patrick Hayes: I dont see 'look at' as meaning 'take control of'.

15:44:06 <PatH> So I understand lee's concern but thinkit is misplaced.

Patrick Hayes: So I understand lee's concern but thinkit is misplaced.

15:44:09 <LeeF> PatH, I agree - the part I didn't add is that we have limited time & resources in the group

Lee Feigenbaum: PatH, I agree - the part I didn't add is that we have limited time & resources in the group

15:44:24 <PatH> probably me on IRC.

Patrick Hayes: probably me on IRC.

15:44:35 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:44:36 <tomayac> gavin: i don't think we have the right people to finsih json-ld

Gavin Carothers: i don't think we have the right people to finsih json-ld

15:44:40 <ivan> ack manu1

Ivan Herman: ack manu1

15:44:40 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to discuss the right group

Zakim IRC Bot: manu1, you wanted to discuss the right group

15:44:44 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:44:48 <tomayac> manu: sharing the same concerns of gavin

Manu Sporny: sharing the same concerns of gavin

15:44:53 <NickH> yes, I agree that this might not be the right group of people

Nicholas Humfrey: yes, I agree that this might not be the right group of people

15:45:01 <tomayac> manu: everyone in this group is fantastic and has a strong history in rdf

Manu Sporny: everyone in this group is fantastic and has a strong history in rdf

15:45:12 <LeeF> Exactly. Couldn't agree more with what Manu just said

Lee Feigenbaum: Exactly. Couldn't agree more with what Manu just said

15:45:17 <yvesr> manu1, the BBC does, I would think

Yves Raimond: manu1, the BBC does, I would think

15:45:25 <tomayac> manu: but i don't think enough people in this wg use javascript and json enough in their daily lives

Manu Sporny: but i don't think enough people in this wg use javascript and json enough in their daily lives

15:45:31 <SteveH> we use loads of JSON and Javascript

Steve Harris: we use loads of JSON and Javascript

15:45:44 <LeeF> We use loads of JSON and JavaScript too, but not in the way that JSON-LD views the world

Lee Feigenbaum: We use loads of JSON and JavaScript too, but not in the way that JSON-LD views the world

15:45:44 <SteveH> a bit of a simplistic generalisation

Steve Harris: a bit of a simplistic generalisation

15:45:45 <tomayac> manu: the people on public-linked-json@ are the right people imho

Manu Sporny: the people on public-linked-json@ are the right people imho

15:45:51 <iand> we should also look (briefly) at the microdata json serialization which has some overlap

Ian Davis: we should also look (briefly) at the microdata json serialization which has some overlap

15:45:54 <gavinc> I did/do, but it's not exactly a TopQuadrant strong point at the moment.

Gavin Carothers: I did/do, but it's not exactly a TopQuadrant strong point at the moment.

15:46:01 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:46:05 <ivan> ack ivan

Ivan Herman: ack ivan

15:46:06 <PatH> Who is in charge of json-ld right now? Can we simply advise them in a friendly way?

Patrick Hayes: Who is in charge of json-ld right now? Can we simply advise them in a friendly way?

15:46:18 <tomayac> ivan: putting on the official hat

Ivan Herman: putting on the official hat

15:46:30 <tomayac> ivan: we do not have a group that could take the place

Ivan Herman: we do not have a group that could take the place

15:46:31 <manu1> PatH - I'm the current editor and am running the calls, at the moment.

Manu Sporny: PatH - I'm the current editor and am running the calls, at the moment.

15:46:36 <PatH> suits you, Ivan.

Patrick Hayes: suits you, Ivan.

15:46:47 <tomayac> ivan: the rdf group is still the closest one that could standardize this

Ivan Herman: the rdf group is still the closest one that could standardize this

15:47:00 <tomayac> ivan: spinning off a separate wg would slow down the process

Ivan Herman: spinning off a separate wg would slow down the process

15:47:27 <LeeF> q+

Lee Feigenbaum: q+

15:47:43 <tomayac> ivan: also what tomayac said: if this work is going in the right direction, then publishing rdf/json is a strange message to send out

Ivan Herman: also what tomayac said: if this work is going in the right direction, then publishing rdf/json is a strange message to send out

15:47:52 <iand> q+

Ian Davis: q+

15:47:59 <ivan> ack LeeF

Ivan Herman: ack LeeF

15:48:01 <tomayac> ivan: we need to avoid any kind of message that could be misunderstood

Ivan Herman: we need to avoid any kind of message that could be misunderstood

15:48:19 <SteveH> +1 to LeeF

Steve Harris: +1 to LeeF

15:48:20 <tomayac> leef: not sure if it's practicable: but maybe this group should do either

Lee Feigenbaum: not sure if it's practicable: but maybe this group should do either

15:48:26 <manu1> +1 to what Lee said - this group has enough on its plate.

Manu Sporny: +1 to what Lee said - this group has enough on its plate.

15:48:26 <PatH> Is the issue that the intended audience would distrust the spec if it was emitted by this group? NOthing we can do about that if so. OR is it that we are less than ideally qualified to s=write this? If that is the issue, I suggest that we trust manu and make comments on drafts without being obstructive.

Patrick Hayes: Is the issue that the intended audience would distrust the spec if it was emitted by this group? NOthing we can do about that if so. OR is it that we are less than ideally qualified to s=write this? If that is the issue, I suggest that we trust manu and make comments on drafts without being obstructive.

15:48:32 <tomayac> leef: we're busy w/ the core stuff

Lee Feigenbaum: we're busy w/ the core stuff

15:48:57 <tomayac> leef: speaking for myself, we should not publish either

Lee Feigenbaum: speaking for myself, we should not publish either

15:48:58 <ivan> ack iand

Ivan Herman: ack iand

15:49:08 <tomayac> ivan: not worried about the charter, quick remark

Ivan Herman: not worried about the charter, quick remark

15:49:24 <PatH> I think that something needs to be given the W3C imprimateur. That matters to a lot of people out there.

Patrick Hayes: I think that something needs to be given the W3C imprimateur. That matters to a lot of people out there.

15:49:35 <gavinc> In other words, can we write a JSON-LD-Triples ;)

Gavin Carothers: In other words, can we write a JSON-LD-Triples ;)

15:49:35 <LeeF> PatH, I think the issue is the second. (At least, that's (one of) my concern)

Lee Feigenbaum: PatH, I think the issue is the second. (At least, that's (one of) my concern)

15:50:03 <LeeF> PatH, I think it matters less to the people who are the core audience of JSON-LD, but that's purely speculation on my part

Lee Feigenbaum: PatH, I think it matters less to the people who are the core audience of JSON-LD, but that's purely speculation on my part

15:50:17 <PatH> Well, then, I dont see that as an issue. Y'all trust me to write the model theory, I m happy to trust manu to write the JSON stuff.

Patrick Hayes: Well, then, I dont see that as an issue. Y'all trust me to write the model theory, I m happy to trust manu to write the JSON stuff.

15:50:39 <PatH> OR whoever feels they know what they are talking about :-)

Patrick Hayes: OR whoever feels they know what they are talking about :-)

15:50:55 <gavinc> I just want to make sure we can get more feedback from other JSON developers

Gavin Carothers: I just want to make sure we can get more feedback from other JSON developers

15:51:01 <iand> my question was: is there a profile of JSON-LD that subsumes what the purpose of RDF/JSON is, i.e. a regular structure that requires no parsing on client

Ian Davis: my question was: is there a profile of JSON-LD that subsumes what the purpose of RDF/JSON is, i.e. a regular structure that requires no parsing on client

15:51:23 <PatH> Yes, we always need that pre-publiish-last-call-comments stuff to go on, might take a little longer for this one.

Patrick Hayes: Yes, we always need that pre-publiish-last-call-comments stuff to go on, might take a little longer for this one.

15:51:24 <tomayac> manu: there is a structure that is an array of objects

Manu Sporny: there is a structure that is an array of objects

15:51:30 <NickH> iand, a bit like N-Triples couple be a subset of Turtle but can be parsed faster?

Nicholas Humfrey: iand, a bit like N-Triples couple be a subset of Turtle but can be parsed faster?

15:51:38 <ivan> q?

Ivan Herman: q?

15:51:44 <tomayac> manu: you can write it in such a way that it's only one level deep, normalization takes care of that

Manu Sporny: you can write it in such a way that it's only one level deep, normalization takes care of that

15:51:53 <iand> yes, like ntriples/turtle

Ian Davis: yes, like ntriples/turtle

15:52:05 <tomayac> manu: flat structure, ends up looking very much like turtle

Manu Sporny: flat structure, ends up looking very much like turtle

15:52:10 <tomayac> ivan: 5 more minutes

Ivan Herman: 5 more minutes

15:52:14 <gavinc> 15 more minutes

Gavin Carothers: 15 more minutes

15:52:23 <tomayac> ivan: not appropriate to decide something now

Ivan Herman: not appropriate to decide something now

15:52:26 <PatH> just as long as it uses UTF-8...

Patrick Hayes: just as long as it uses UTF-8...

15:52:31 <iand> manu: would you be able to send an example to the wg list?

Manu Sporny: would you be able to send an example to the wg list? [ Scribe Assist by Ian Davis ]

15:53:18 <tomayac> ivan: my feeling is that on one hand json-ld might be more appropriate to happen in a separate community group that could be merged into a separate wg

Ivan Herman: my feeling is that on one hand json-ld might be more appropriate to happen in a separate community group that could be merged into a separate wg

15:53:36 <tomayac> ivan: the second thing is we might suspend rdf/json work

Ivan Herman: the second thing is we might suspend rdf/json work

15:53:45 <tomayac> ivan: maybe even completely stop it

Ivan Herman: maybe even completely stop it

15:54:01 <tomayac> ivan: rdf/json might be subsumed by json-ld

Ivan Herman: rdf/json might be subsumed by json-ld

15:54:15 <tomayac> ivan: this wg might focus on graphs etc.

Ivan Herman: this wg might focus on graphs etc.

15:54:19 <iand> +1 to ivan

Ian Davis: +1 to ivan

15:54:22 <manu1> +1 to ivan

Manu Sporny: +1 to ivan

15:54:22 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:54:25 <tomayac> ivan: only my opinion, or others agree?

Ivan Herman: only my opinion, or others agree?

15:54:28 <NickH> +1

Nicholas Humfrey: +1

15:54:30 <MacTed> +1

Ted Thibodeau: +1

15:54:40 <tomayac> ivan: proposing to stop the json discussion

Ivan Herman: proposing to stop the json discussion

15:54:40 <PatH> not sure what we are voting on

Patrick Hayes: not sure what we are voting on

15:54:55 <tomayac> ivan: reporting to the chairs, the discussion should go on via email

Ivan Herman: reporting to the chairs, the discussion should go on via email

15:54:59 <PatH> +1

Patrick Hayes: +1

15:55:22 <LeeF> PatH, did you just vote affirmatively for an explicitly unknown question? :)

Lee Feigenbaum: PatH, did you just vote affirmatively for an explicitly unknown question? :)

15:55:23 <tomayac> ivan: two more minutes to go

Ivan Herman: two more minutes to go

15:55:35 <PatH> I thought my question was answered...

Patrick Hayes: I thought my question was answered...

15:55:46 <LeeF> ah ok, i missed that :D

Lee Feigenbaum: ah ok, i missed that :D

15:55:48 <tomayac> ivan: ntriple issue and utf8

Ivan Herman: ntriple issue and utf8

15:55:48 <PatH> OK, put the knives awy now, guys.

Patrick Hayes: OK, put the knives awy now, guys.

15:56:11 <gavinc> +q did the chairs/staff get the the comments from last week and emails about opening up the mailing list?

Gavin Carothers: +q did the chairs/staff get the the comments from last week and emails about opening up the mailing list?

15:56:20 <gavinc> +q to ask if the chairs/staff get the the comments from last week and emails about opening up the mailing list?

Gavin Carothers: +q to ask if the chairs/staff get the the comments from last week and emails about opening up the mailing list?

15:56:29 <tomayac> ivan: proposes to adjourn the meeting

Ivan Herman: proposes to adjourn the meeting

15:56:40 <PatH> OK, bye all.

Patrick Hayes: OK, bye all.

15:56:45 <tomayac> ivan: ideally in one week we could have a final decision on the json issue

Ivan Herman: ideally in one week we could have a final decision on the json issue

15:56:52 <tomayac> ivan: meeting adjourned

Ivan Herman: meeting adjourned

15:56:56 <tomayac> leef: Topic: Mailing List

Lee Feigenbaum: Topic: Mailing List

15:57:06 <tomayac> leef: what was up w/ the mailing list?

Lee Feigenbaum: what was up w/ the mailing list?

15:57:25 <tomayac> leef: (explains) people from rdf-comments@ could not subscribe / post

Lee Feigenbaum: (explains) people from rdf-comments@ could not subscribe / post

15:57:43 <tomayac> leef: they are not wg members, but expected they could subscribe

Gavin Carothers: they are not wg members, but expected they could subscribe

15:58:17 <tomayac> ivan: this structure is not so unusual to have two mailing lists, also on other wgs

Ivan Herman: this structure is not so unusual to have two mailing lists, also on other wgs

15:58:20 <gavinc> s/leef/gavinc
15:58:26 <tomayac> ivan: by desing

Ivan Herman: by design

15:58:42 <tomayac> ivan: we can rediscussed, but w/o the chairs, can't comment

Ivan Herman: we can rediscussed, but w/o the chairs, can't comment

15:58:53 <tomayac> s/desing/design/
15:58:59 <tomayac> ivan: no strong feeling about it

Ivan Herman: no strong feeling about it

15:59:13 <tomayac> ivan: if the majority decides to change it, we change it

Ivan Herman: if the majority decides to change it, we change it

15:59:20 <tomayac> ivan: adjounred, second time

Ivan Herman: adjounred, second time

15:59:30 <iand> bye all

Ian Davis: bye all

15:59:31 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:59:33 <yvesr> bye!

Yves Raimond: bye!

15:59:35 <Zakim> -yvesr

Zakim IRC Bot: -yvesr

15:59:39 <Zakim> -manu1

Zakim IRC Bot: -manu1

15:59:42 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:59:45 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

15:59:47 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

15:59:55 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

15:59:57 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer

Zakim IRC Bot: -Scott_Bauer

16:00:01 <Zakim> -iand

Zakim IRC Bot: -iand

16:00:10 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:00:20 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

16:00:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see tomayac, SteveH, EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tomayac, SteveH, EricP

16:00:21 <Zakim> On IRC I see mischat, iand, SteveH, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, tomayac, manu1, gavinc, ericP, sandro, trackbot, NickH, manu

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see mischat, iand, SteveH, yvesr, Zakim, RRSAgent, MacTed, LeeF, ivan, tomayac, manu1, gavinc, ericP, sandro, trackbot, NickH, manu

16:00:29 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:00:35 <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Ivan Herman: trackbot, end telcon

16:00:35 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:00:35 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, +44.207.923.aaaa, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, SteveH, iand, LeeF, NickH, EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been gavinc, Ivan, manu1, tomayac, +44.207.923.aaaa, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, yvesr, Scott_Bauer, SteveH, iand, LeeF, NickH, EricP

16:00:36 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:00:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/08/24-rdf-wg-minutes.html trackbot

16:00:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:00:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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