edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 01 November 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01
Seen
Craig Trim, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, Hook Hua, Ivan Herman, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo
Regrets
Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Daniel Garijo, Curt Tilmes
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Timothy Lebo, Simon Miles
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon link
  2. CR Exit Criteria defined at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria are approved link
  3. The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579, issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581 link
  4. change scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles link
Topics
  1. Admin

    The minutes were approved, action reviewed. Note that we do NOT have a telecon next Thursday, since F2F is Friday.

  2. exit criteria

    The CR exit criteria were approved. Update on the questionnaire was provided by Stephan. Outstanding minor points will be addressed shortly.

  3. Prov-o Issues

    Outstanding issues were reviewed. Group answer to ISSUE-491 remains to be written; Luc will contact Stian about it. ISSUE-522 is the only technical issue remaining to be addressed. Tim will draft a response and share it with the group, with a view to respond to the reviewer early next week. In response to ISSUE-522, Luc also updated the wording in prov-dm. All outstanding issues are purely editorial and the team believes the document will be ready for the face to face meeting.

  4. PROV-Constraints issues

    The responses drafted by James during the week were approved by the group. James will contact the reviewers and seek their acknowledgement. Further outstanding issues were addressed. The document will be ready for the face to face meeting.

  5. prov-n issues

    In response to Ivan's feedback, the group discussed the scope of prefix declarations in prov-n. It was suggested that prefixes declared in a document should also be visible in bundles (unless they have been redeclared). Ivan confirmed that this was not a design change, but a syntactic sugar change. The group endorsed the proposal (and issue-589 was raised to that effect). Graham was also satisfied with the changes to the mime type application. It is planned to implement the new issue shortly and complete the document ahead of the meeting.

  6. PROV-DM issues

    the outstanding issue in prov-dm is related to mention (issue-475). A response was circulated during the week. The proposal is to keep the feature marked at risk, and as indicated in the document, make a decision on its suitability based on implementer's feedback. A vote is to be carried out by email (deadline next Tuesday) in time to respond to the reviewer.

  7. prov-xml

    The editors of the prov-xml document have produced a draft of the specification and are now seeking feedback. Luc and James have volunteered to review the document. Other reviewers would be appreciated. The key question is to decide whether the document is ready for release as a fpwd, synchronised with the CR release. It was discussed whether there was time to update the primer with xml examples. The prov-xml team will draft the example in full in xml and will share it with Simon.

14:38:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-irc

14:39:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:39:03 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:39:03 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

14:39:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be PROV

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:39:04 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:39:04 <trackbot> Date: 01 November 2012
14:39:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

14:39:12 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01
14:39:20 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:40:01 <Luc> Regrets: Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Daniel Garijo, Curt Tilmes
14:40:16 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:40:26 <Luc> topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The minutes were approved, action reviewed. Note that we do NOT have a telecon next Thursday, since F2F is Friday.

14:57:07 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 16 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:57:14 <Zakim> +Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc

14:57:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:00:39 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:00:42 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aaaa

15:00:48 <MacTed> MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01

Ted Thibodeau: MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01

15:00:49 <tlebo> zakim, I am aaaa

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aaaa

15:00:49 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:01:01 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:01 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:01:02 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:01:02 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:01:35 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted), tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted), tlebo

15:01:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

15:01:53 <tlebo> I'll scribe

Timothy Lebo: I'll scribe

15:02:00 <Luc> scribe: tlebo

(Scribe set to Timothy Lebo)

15:02:27 <tlebo> luc: good afternoon.

Luc Moreau: good afternoon.

15:02:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa]

15:02:39 <tlebo> ... trying to close issues leading to F2F

... trying to close issues leading to F2F

15:02:51 <Luc> Proposed: approve Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

PROPOSED: approve Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

15:03:01 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:03:02 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:03:03 <tlebo> proposed: approve last week's minutes

PROPOSED: approve last week's minutes

15:03:06 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:03:12 <tlebo> +1

+1

15:03:20 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aabb

15:03:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aaa]

15:03:48 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

15:03:51 <Luc> Accepted:  Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

15:04:10 <smiles> zakim, ??P14 is me

Simon Miles: zakim, ??P14 is me

15:04:10 <Zakim> +smiles; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles; got it

15:04:10 <tlebo> luc: outstanding actions

Luc Moreau: outstanding actions

15:04:38 <tlebo> tim has not done the cross referencing yet.

tim has not done the cross referencing yet.

15:05:07 <tlebo> tim: the cross referencing is editorial

Timothy Lebo: the cross referencing is editorial

15:05:23 <tlebo> Stian's 118 can be closed

Stian's 118 can be closed

15:05:43 <tlebo> 121 - Tim's action on subclassing.

121 - Tim's action on subclassing.

<Luc>Summary: The minutes were approved, action reviewed. Note that we do NOT have a telecon next Thursday, since F2F is Friday.
15:06:20 <Luc> topic: exit criteria

2. exit criteria

Summary: The CR exit criteria were approved. Update on the questionnaire was provided by Stephan. Outstanding minor points will be addressed shortly.

<luc>Summary: The CR exit criteria were approved. Update on the questionnaire was provided by Stephan. Outstanding minor points will be addressed shortly.
15:06:22 <tlebo> luc: note that we do NOT have a telecon next Thur., since F2F is Friday.

Luc Moreau: note that we do NOT have a telecon next Thur., since F2F is Friday.

15:06:28 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0305.html

Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0305.html

15:06:42 <tlebo> luc: paul sent proposal to accept criteria.

Luc Moreau: paul sent proposal to accept criteria.

15:06:47 <tlebo> ... all responses were positive.

... all responses were positive.

15:07:01 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:07:01 <tlebo> ... can we record approval? any objections?

... can we record approval? any objections?

15:07:16 <Luc> accepted:  CR Exit Criteria defined at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria are approved

RESOLVED: CR Exit Criteria defined at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria are approved

15:07:42 <tlebo> luc: questionnaire. Is it ready to submit to W3C management team?

Luc Moreau: questionnaire. Is it ready to submit to W3C management team?

15:07:55 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

15:08:36 <tlebo> zednik: trying to fix Paul's last issue on it. Implementation consuming external construct. Will address them today and get confirmation, will send it out.

Stephan Zednik: trying to fix Paul's last issue on it. Implementation consuming external construct. Will address them today and get confirmation, will send it out.

15:08:54 <tlebo> zednik: will try to finish it today.

Stephan Zednik: will try to finish it today.

15:09:23 <tlebo> luc: will try to have an email vote ahead of the F2F

Luc Moreau: will try to have an email vote ahead of the F2F

15:09:26 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:09:43 <Luc> topic: Prov-o Issues

3. Prov-o Issues

Summary: Outstanding issues were reviewed. Group answer to ISSUE-491 remains to be written; Luc will contact Stian about it. ISSUE-522 is the only technical issue remaining to be addressed. Tim will draft a response and share it with the group, with a view to respond to the reviewer early next week. In response to ISSUE-522, Luc also updated the wording in prov-dm. All outstanding issues are purely editorial and the team believes the document will be ready for the face to face meeting.

<luc>Summary: Outstanding issues were reviewed. Group answer to ISSUE-491 remains to be written; Luc will contact Stian about it.  ISSUE-522 is the only technical issue remaining to be addressed. Tim will draft a response and share it with the group, with a view to respond to the reviewer early next week. In response to ISSUE-522, Luc also updated the wording in prov-dm.  All outstanding issues are purely editorial and the team believes the document will be ready for the face to face meeting.
15:10:06 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

15:10:10 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3

15:11:01 <tlebo> 349 can be closed

349 can be closed

15:11:57 <tlebo> 479 can be clsoed b/c we are not using Trig.

479 can be clsoed b/c we are not using Trig.

15:12:09 <tlebo> 491 was Stian handling it.

491 was Stian handling it.

15:12:35 <tlebo> Luc: Tim to draft response and contact reviewer.

Luc Moreau: Tim to draft response and contact reviewer.

15:13:27 <Zakim> +??P13

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P13

15:13:44 <GK1> zakim, ??p13 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??p13 is me

15:13:44 <Zakim> +GK1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK1; got it

15:13:53 <tlebo> Tim: I''l hunt down everthing there...

Timothy Lebo: I''l hunt down everthing there...

15:13:58 <Zakim> + +1.661.382.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.661.382.aacc

15:14:16 <CraigTrim> zakim, aacc is me

Craig Trim: zakim, aacc is me

15:14:17 <Zakim> +CraigTrim; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +CraigTrim; got it

15:15:46 <Luc> Rephrasing in prov-dm: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/363ce30cec66

Luc Moreau: Rephrasing in prov-dm: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/363ce30cec66

15:15:53 <tlebo> Tim: 552 is the only big issue, and I'll start it after this call.

Timothy Lebo: 552 is the only big issue, and I'll start it after this call.

15:16:31 <tlebo> luc: new definitions include "relation"

Luc Moreau: new definitions include "relation"

15:17:37 <tlebo> luc: change of text, but not of the ontology.

Luc Moreau: change of text, but not of the ontology.

15:18:09 <tlebo> tlebo: my approach will be to change the text.

Timothy Lebo: my approach will be to change the text.

15:18:41 <tlebo> luc: draft response, group approves, convey change to commenter, and have acknowledgment before F2F.

Luc Moreau: draft response, group approves, convey change to commenter, and have acknowledgment before F2F.

15:19:04 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:19:16 <tlebo> ... can we vote, so that the acknowledgement can be sent to the commenter on Monday.

... can we vote, so that the acknowledgement can be sent to the commenter on Monday.

15:19:38 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Nov/0000.html

Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Nov/0000.html

15:20:34 <tlebo> tim: my impression was that it is just an announcement.

Timothy Lebo: my impression was that it is just an announcement.

15:21:05 <tlebo> luc: they are using wasInfluencedBy, but the rec suggest to use a subproperty.

Luc Moreau: they are using wasInfluencedBy, but the rec suggest to use a subproperty.

15:21:55 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:21:55 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

15:22:02 <tlebo> tlebo: yes, we can look at their use and suggest to use a subproperty.

Timothy Lebo: yes, we can look at their use and suggest to use a subproperty.

15:22:24 <Luc> topic: PROV-Constraints issues

4. PROV-Constraints issues

Summary: The responses drafted by James during the week were approved by the group. James will contact the reviewers and seek their acknowledgement. Further outstanding issues were addressed. The document will be ready for the face to face meeting.

<Luc>Summary: The responses drafted by James during the week were approved by the group. James will contact the reviewers and seek their acknowledgement. Further outstanding issues were addressed. The document will be ready for the face to face meeting.
15:22:54 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/12

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/12

15:23:09 <tlebo> jcheney: isssues were raised from the feedback last week.

James Cheney: isssues were raised from the feedback last week.

15:23:41 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#PROV-CONSTRAINTS.28Under_review.29

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#PROV-CONSTRAINTS.28Under_review.29

15:23:43 <tlebo> ... haven't heard any feedback beyond minor typos.

... haven't heard any feedback beyond minor typos.

15:24:09 <tlebo> ... unless objection, would like to send the responses to the commenters.

... unless objection, would like to send the responses to the commenters.

15:24:19 <tlebo> ... two more issues that are leftover from last call. internal.

... two more issues that are leftover from last call. internal.

15:24:22 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

15:24:25 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

15:24:59 <tlebo> ... made propsoed change and considers it done. Do we need to send a formal response?

... made propsoed change and considers it done. Do we need to send a formal response?

15:25:15 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522

15:25:16 <tlebo> ... the comment spread from issue on DM

... the comment spread from issue on DM

15:25:24 <tlebo> luc: we need to approve responses.

Luc Moreau: we need to approve responses.

15:26:30 <Luc>  PROPOSED: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579,  issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581

Luc Moreau: PROPOSED: The group endorses the responses to ISSUE-556, ISSUE-576, ISSUE-582, ISSUE-586, ISSUE-587, ISSUE-588, ISSUE-584, ISSUE-579, ISSUE-585, ISSUE-583, ISSUE-580, ISSUE-577, ISSUE-578, ISSUE-581

15:28:15 <tlebo> jcheney: the constraints doc is not addressing how to implement them in OWL etc.

James Cheney: the constraints doc is not addressing how to implement them in OWL etc.

15:28:18 <tlebo> +1

+1

15:28:38 <Luc> zakim, who is on the phone?

Luc Moreau: zakim, who is on the phone?

15:28:38 <Zakim> On the phone I see Luc, tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Luc, tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

15:28:49 <GK> 0 (not reviewed or followed discussion)

Graham Klyne: 0 (not reviewed or followed discussion)

15:28:58 <smiles> +1 (though I admit to not having read them all thoroughly...)

Simon Miles: +1 (though I admit to not having read them all thoroughly...)

15:29:05 <khalidBelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:29:12 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:29:33 <Luc> accepted: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579,  issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581

RESOLVED: The group endorses the responses to ISSUE-556, ISSUE-576, ISSUE-582, ISSUE-586, ISSUE-587, ISSUE-588, ISSUE-584, ISSUE-579, ISSUE-585, ISSUE-583, ISSUE-580, ISSUE-577, ISSUE-578, ISSUE-581

15:29:43 <jun> +0 (haven't been able to review)

Jun Zhao: +0 (haven't been able to review)

15:31:01 <tlebo> jcheney: I'll contact the commenters instead of Paul

James Cheney: I'll contact the commenters instead of Paul

15:31:12 <tlebo> luc: any other changes?

Luc Moreau: any other changes?

15:31:25 <tlebo> jcheney: all that are necessary are done.

James Cheney: all that are necessary are done.

15:31:37 <tlebo> ... some quick issues to get feedback:

... some quick issues to get feedback:

15:32:01 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

15:32:28 <tlebo> ... 559 was a side effect, do we need to make a formal response?

... 559 was a side effect, do we need to make a formal response?

15:32:47 <tlebo> luc: was an internal comment.

Luc Moreau: was an internal comment.

15:32:54 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/575

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/575

15:33:07 <tlebo> jcheney: links between identifier fields.

James Cheney: links between identifier fields.

15:33:08 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#entity.id

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#entity.id

15:33:28 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:33:46 <tlebo> luc: i'll do it after the call

Luc Moreau: i'll do it after the call

15:34:26 <tlebo> ... in responses, can you ask them to acknowledge and whether they are satisfied?

... in responses, can you ask them to acknowledge and whether they are satisfied?

15:34:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:34:42 <Luc> topic: prov-n issues

5. prov-n issues

Summary: In response to Ivan's feedback, the group discussed the scope of prefix declarations in prov-n. It was suggested that prefixes declared in a document should also be visible in bundles (unless they have been redeclared). Ivan confirmed that this was not a design change, but a syntactic sugar change. The group endorsed the proposal (and issue-589 was raised to that effect). Graham was also satisfied with the changes to the mime type application. It is planned to implement the new issue shortly and complete the document ahead of the meeting.

<Luc>Summary: In response to Ivan's feedback, the group discussed the scope of prefix declarations in prov-n. It was suggested that prefixes declared in a document should also be visible in bundles (unless they have been redeclared).   Ivan confirmed that this was not a design change, but a syntactic sugar change.  The group endorsed the proposal (and issue-589 was raised to that effect). Graham was also satisfied with the changes to the mime type application. It is planned to implement the new issue shortly and complete the document ahead of the meeting.
15:34:58 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/11

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/11

15:35:04 <tlebo> luc: only 2 issues

Luc Moreau: only 2 issues

15:35:39 <tlebo> ... ivan was fine, but we want to confirm...

... ivan was fine, but we want to confirm...

15:36:05 <tlebo> ... namespace declarations and bundles. bundles do not "inherit" prefixes.

... namespace declarations and bundles. bundles do not "inherit" prefixes.

15:36:32 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:36:32 <tlebo> q+

q+

15:36:33 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

15:36:55 <GK> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:37:19 <Luc> ack tl

Luc Moreau: ack tl

15:37:26 <tlebo> @gk probably would have stated it better...

@gk probably would have stated it better...

15:38:02 <tlebo> gk: same point as Tim, you were responding to URIs of entities

Graham Klyne: same point as Tim, you were responding to URIs of entities

15:38:11 <tlebo> luc: do we need to revise?

Luc Moreau: do we need to revise?

15:38:23 <jcheney> Currently says: "The scope of a namespace declaration directly occurring in a document is the document itself, excluding the bundles it may contain."

James Cheney: Currently says: "The scope of a namespace declaration directly occurring in a document is the document itself, excluding the bundles it may contain."

15:38:25 <tlebo> ... one benefit is that bundles are totally distinct.

... one benefit is that bundles are totally distinct.

15:38:52 <jcheney> This forces you to repeat prefixes in common cases, including many natural-looking examples in prov-dm

James Cheney: This forces you to repeat prefixes in common cases, including many natural-looking examples in prov-dm

15:39:00 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:40 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:40:04 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:40:12 <Luc> scribe: smiles

(Scribe set to Simon Miles)

15:40:15 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:40:53 <GK> I was saying that I thought the current design is maybe sub-optimal for human use, but not fatally flawed.

Graham Klyne: I was saying that I thought the current design is maybe sub-optimal for human use, but not fatally flawed.

15:41:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:41:23 <smiles> jcheney: Missed original change to excluding namespaces in top-level bundle; changing the scope to include the namespaces from top-level might not break anything?

James Cheney: Missed original change to excluding namespaces in top-level bundle; changing the scope to include the namespaces from top-level might not break anything?

15:41:54 <smiles> Luc: Would need to get advice on whether this is only an editorial change

Luc Moreau: Would need to get advice on whether this is only an editorial change

15:42:08 <smiles> ... How strongly do you feel about this?

... How strongly do you feel about this?

15:43:01 <smiles> jcheney: There are situations where it is useful to think of bundles as independent and copy-paste without worrying about top-level, but using namespace without repeating declaration throughout a document is common

James Cheney: There are situations where it is useful to think of bundles as independent and copy-paste without worrying about top-level, but using namespace without repeating declaration throughout a document is common

15:43:45 <smiles> ... Natural expectation is that if you state something then embedded scopes would include that thing

... Natural expectation is that if you state something then embedded scopes would include that thing

15:44:05 <tlebo> FWIW, Turtle and Trig permits the prefixes to be defined once and used in any of many "bundle".

Timothy Lebo: FWIW, Turtle and Trig permits the prefixes to be defined once and used in any of many "bundle".

15:44:06 <smiles> Luc: Are we willing to go ahead with change even if it is not just editoral, i.e. back to LC

Luc Moreau: Are we willing to go ahead with change even if it is not just editoral, i.e. back to LC

15:44:26 <tlebo> This is not worth going back to Last Call for.

Timothy Lebo: This is not worth going back to Last Call for.

15:44:37 <smiles> jcheney: It is something that people will anyway notice and complain about in implementation

James Cheney: It is something that people will anyway notice and complain about in implementation

15:44:44 <GK> Maybe ask Ivan if this would need to redo last call.  It seems a small change, albeit technical.

Graham Klyne: Maybe ask Ivan if this would need to redo last call. It seems a small change, albeit technical.

15:44:56 <ivan> if I may, just on IRC...

Ivan Herman: if I may, just on IRC...

15:45:02 <ivan> this is not a design change

Ivan Herman: this is not a design change

15:45:09 <Luc> thanks ivan

Luc Moreau: thanks ivan

15:45:18 <ivan> this is a change in a syntactic sugar

Ivan Herman: this is a change in a syntactic sugar

15:45:25 <Luc> ok

Luc Moreau: ok

15:45:35 <ivan> it would influence implementations, but that is not the issue for LC

Ivan Herman: it would influence implementations, but that is not the issue for LC

15:45:53 <smiles> Luc: Given the above, it would be good to know the WG's preference

Luc Moreau: Given the above, it would be good to know the WG's preference

15:46:05 <Luc> show of hand: allow scope of prefix declarations

Luc Moreau: show of hand: allow scope of prefix declarations

15:46:40 <tlebo> +1 because that's how it's done in Turtle/Trig, -1 b/c PROV-N is for examples in Recs :-)

Timothy Lebo: +1 because that's how it's done in Turtle/Trig, -1 b/c PROV-N is for examples in Recs :-)

15:46:59 <smiles> satya: Please clarify question

Satya Sahoo: Please clarify question

15:47:13 <GK> +0.5 to top-level namespaces visible in contained bundles in PROV-N (next question: can they be redefined in inner bundles?)

Graham Klyne: +0.5 to top-level namespaces visible in contained bundles in PROV-N (next question: can they be redefined in inner bundles?)

15:47:22 <jcheney> See namespace scope rules in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

James Cheney: See namespace scope rules in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

15:47:44 <smiles> Luc: Currently in PROV-N, when declaring prefix at top level and want to re-use in nested bundle, have to redeclare prefix in bundle

Luc Moreau: Currently in PROV-N, when declaring prefix at top level and want to re-use in nested bundle, have to redeclare prefix in bundle

15:47:48 <jcheney> Currently, this is illegal:

James Cheney: Currently, this is illegal:

15:47:53 <jcheney> document  prefix ex <http://example.org/>  bundle ex:b1     entity(ex:e1, ...someattr1...)     entity(ex:e1, ...someattr2...)  endBundle endDocument

James Cheney: document prefix ex <http://example.org/> bundle ex:b1 entity(ex:e1, ...someattr1...) entity(ex:e1, ...someattr2...) endBundle endDocument

15:48:05 <jcheney> because ex is not re-declared inside the bundle

James Cheney: because ex is not re-declared inside the bundle

15:49:02 <smiles> Luc: @GK, yes, prefixes could be redefined in inner bundles

Luc Moreau: @GK, yes, prefixes could be redefined in inner bundles

15:49:24 <jcheney> I http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

James Cheney: I http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

15:49:42 <smiles> jcheney: Suggest just changing sentence in PROV-N from "excluding the bundles it may contain" to "including..."

James Cheney: Suggest just changing sentence in PROV-N from "excluding the bundles it may contain" to "including..."

15:50:07 <tlebo> reusing throughout and allowing redefinition in inner bundles would make it much more useful for humans to read and write.

Timothy Lebo: reusing throughout and allowing redefinition in inner bundles would make it much more useful for humans to read and write.

15:50:13 <smiles> ... People have been writing examples that assume the proposed change without realising

... People have been writing examples that assume the proposed change without realising

15:50:14 <GK> Seems to me easier to change the text than the examples

Graham Klyne: Seems to me easier to change the text than the examples

15:50:16 <Luc> proposed: change  scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

PROPOSED: change scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

15:50:36 <satya> +1 to change text

Satya Sahoo: +1 to change text

15:50:38 <smiles> +1

+1

15:50:41 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:50:46 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:50:53 <ivan> +1

Ivan Herman: +1

15:50:54 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:50:56 <tlebo> +.5

Timothy Lebo: +.5

15:51:01 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:51:10 <Luc> accepted: change  scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

RESOLVED: change scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

15:51:31 <smiles> Luc: Next issue: MIME types

Luc Moreau: Next issue: MIME types

15:51:44 <smiles> Luc: @GK, did you look at changes implemented?

Luc Moreau: @GK, did you look at changes implemented?

15:52:02 <smiles> GK: No

Graham Klyne: No

15:52:20 <smiles> Luc: Can you prioritise issue 573?

Luc Moreau: Can you prioritise ISSUE-573?

15:52:51 <smiles> Luc: Everything else covered in PROV-N aside from two issues above

Luc Moreau: Everything else covered in PROV-N aside from two issues above

15:52:57 <Luc> topic: PROV-DM issues

6. PROV-DM issues

Summary: the outstanding issue in prov-dm is related to mention (issue-475). A response was circulated during the week. The proposal is to keep the feature marked at risk, and as indicated in the document, make a decision on its suitability based on implementer's feedback. A vote is to be carried out by email (deadline next Tuesday) in time to respond to the reviewer.

<Luc>Summary: the outstanding issue in prov-dm is related to mention (issue-475). A response was circulated during the week. The proposal is to keep the feature marked at risk, and as indicated in the document, make a decision on its suitability based on implementer's feedback.  A vote is to be carried out by email (deadline next Tuesday) in time to respond to the reviewer.
15:53:17 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/2

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/2

15:53:37 <smiles> Luc: Two issues waiting for confirmation from reviewers on changes

Luc Moreau: Two issues waiting for confirmation from reviewers on changes

15:53:48 <smiles> ... and issue 475 on mention

... and ISSUE-475 on mention

15:54:08 <smiles> ... every other change implemented and logged

... every other change implemented and logged

15:54:29 <Luc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0321.html

Luc Moreau: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0321.html

15:54:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:54:52 <smiles> Luc: Regarding issue 475, did not get response on issue

Luc Moreau: Regarding ISSUE-475, did not get response on issue

15:54:52 <jcheney> q-

James Cheney: q-

15:55:31 <smiles> Luc: GK suggested dropping this feature at risk

Luc Moreau: GK suggested dropping this feature at risk

15:56:04 <smiles> Luc: Conclusion of my response is that we want feedback from implementers

Luc Moreau: Conclusion of my response is that we want feedback from implementers

15:56:17 <smiles> ... As we exit CR phase, can look at suitability

... As we exit CR phase, can look at suitability

15:56:36 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:56:46 <smiles> Luc: Any feedback now?

Luc Moreau: Any feedback now?

15:56:50 <tlebo> +1 to keep it in, marked as at risk.

Timothy Lebo: +1 to keep it in, marked as at risk.

15:57:22 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-475_.28Mention.29

Luc Moreau: ISSUE-475_.28Mention.29">http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-475_.28Mention.29

15:57:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:41 <smiles> Luc: Is the group satisfied with this answer, and to vote now?

Luc Moreau: Is the group satisfied with this answer, and to vote now?

15:57:55 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:11 <smiles> ... or vote by email?

... or vote by email?

15:58:11 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:26 <smiles> +1 to vote by email

+1 to vote by email

15:58:27 <zednik> I like vote by email

Stephan Zednik: I like vote by email

15:58:36 <jcheney> +1 email

James Cheney: +1 email

15:58:38 <tlebo> vote by email seems to be the resounding response. I know I could use a bit more time to work through it entirely.

Timothy Lebo: vote by email seems to be the resounding response. I know I could use a bit more time to work through it entirely.

15:59:18 <smiles> Luc: Will send an email with a deadline

Luc Moreau: Will send an email with a deadline

15:59:24 <Luc> topic: prov-xml

7. prov-xml

Summary: The editors of the prov-xml document have produced a draft of the specification and are now seeking feedback. Luc and James have volunteered to review the document. Other reviewers would be appreciated. The key question is to decide whether the document is ready for release as a fpwd, synchronised with the CR release. It was discussed whether there was time to update the primer with xml examples. The prov-xml team will draft the example in full in xml and will share it with Simon.

<luc>Summary: The editors of the prov-xml document have produced a draft of the specification and are now seeking feedback. Luc and James have volunteered to review the document. Other reviewers would be appreciated. The key question is to decide whether the document is ready for release as a fpwd, synchronised with the CR release. It was discussed whether there was time to update the primer with xml examples. The prov-xml team will draft the example in full in xml and will share it with Simon.
16:00:06 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:00:17 <smiles> zednik: We have made significant changes to XML note, including table of features mapping  PROV-DM to XSD, plus examples with excerpts of schema

Stephan Zednik: We have made significant changes to XML note, including table of features mapping PROV-DM to XSD, plus examples with excerpts of schema

16:00:40 <zednik> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/1816251fd592/xml/prov-xml.html

Stephan Zednik: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/1816251fd592/xml/prov-xml.html

16:00:46 <smiles> ... Now looking for feedback on the HTML

... Now looking for feedback on the HTML

16:01:48 <smiles> Luc: Thanks. There is an opportunity to release first WD of this doc with CRs of other specs. Will it be ready?

Luc Moreau: Thanks. There is an opportunity to release first WD of this doc with CRs of other specs. Will it be ready?

16:02:23 <smiles> ... Next week we would take a vote, discuss with W3C management to publish CRs, so two weeks for XML document before publishing

... Next week we would take a vote, discuss with W3C management to publish CRs, so two weeks for XML document before publishing

16:02:52 <smiles> zednik: Probably get ready in two weeks, but need to address WG comments, ensure there is no gaps (e.g. bundles)

Stephan Zednik: Probably get ready in two weeks, but need to address WG comments, ensure there is no gaps (e.g. bundles)

16:03:12 <smiles> Luc: Would be nice to have review taking place during week

Luc Moreau: Would be nice to have review taking place during week

16:03:17 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aabb

16:03:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:03:32 <jcheney> sure

James Cheney: sure

16:03:34 <smiles> ... Who is willing to review PROV-XML document?

... Who is willing to review PROV-XML document?

16:03:45 <tlebo> one what timeframe?

Timothy Lebo: one what timeframe?

16:03:46 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aadd

16:04:02 <tlebo> thanks. Then no :-)

Timothy Lebo: thanks. Then no :-)

16:04:03 <smiles> Luc: Feedback in time for F2F

Luc Moreau: Feedback in time for F2F

16:04:19 <smiles> ... Question for reviewers: Can we release this document as a FPWD

... Question for reviewers: Can we release this document as a FPWD

16:05:06 <smiles> Luc: Intent to include XML in primer. Feasible to include for release?

Luc Moreau: Intent to include XML in primer. Feasible to include for release?

16:05:51 <smiles> smiles: For primer, if given XML fragments, then quick job to add

Simon Miles: For primer, if given XML fragments, then quick job to add

16:06:07 <smiles> zednik: Possibly, but need to look at examples in primer

Stephan Zednik: Possibly, but need to look at examples in primer

16:06:20 <GK> @luc - the text/provenance-notation MIME registration revisions look fine to me at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#media-type

Graham Klyne: @luc - the text/provenance-notation MIME registration revisions look fine to me at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#media-type

16:06:24 <hook> might need to check latest fragments for bundles per recent updates

Hook Hua: might need to check latest fragments for bundles per recent updates

16:06:36 <Zakim> -CraigTrim

Zakim IRC Bot: -CraigTrim

16:06:37 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:06:39 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

16:06:45 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aaa]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aaa]

16:06:47 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:06:50 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aadd

16:06:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

16:06:51 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aa]

16:07:16 <Zakim> -GK1

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK1

16:07:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

16:07:17 <Zakim> Attendees were Luc, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, MacTed, +1.818.731.aabb, smiles, GK1, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Luc, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, MacTed, +1.818.731.aabb, smiles, GK1, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aadd

16:07:18 <Luc> rrsagent, set log public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, set log public

16:07:22 <Luc> rrsagent, draft minutes

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-minutes.html Luc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-minutes.html Luc



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