IRC log of prov on 2012-11-01

Timestamps are in UTC.

14:38:59 [RRSAgent]

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logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-irc

14:39:01 [trackbot]

RRSAgent, make logs world

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14:39:03 [Luc]

Zakim, this will be PROV

14:39:03 [Zakim]

ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

14:39:03 [trackbot]

Zakim, this will be PROV

14:39:04 [trackbot]

Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference

14:39:04 [trackbot]

Date: 01 November 2012

14:39:04 [Zakim]

ok, trackbot; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 21 minutes

14:39:12 [Luc]

Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01

14:39:20 [Luc]

Chair: Luc Moreau

14:40:01 [Luc]

Regrets: Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Daniel Garijo, Curt Tilmes

14:40:16 [Luc]

rrsagent, make logs public

14:40:26 [Luc]

topic: Admin

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SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:57:14 [Zakim]

+Luc

14:57:15 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller]

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15:00:39 [Zakim]

+OpenLink_Software

15:00:42 [Zakim]

+ +1.315.330.aaaa

15:00:48 [MacTed]

MacTed has changed the topic to: PROV WG -- http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/ -- current agenda http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.11.01

15:00:49 [tlebo]

zakim, I am aaaa

15:00:49 [Zakim]

+tlebo; got it

15:01:01 [MacTed]

Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:01:01 [Zakim]

+MacTed; got it

15:01:02 [MacTed]

Zakim, mute me

15:01:02 [Zakim]

MacTed should now be muted

15:01:35 [Luc]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:35 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], MacTed (muted), tlebo

15:01:38 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller.a]

15:01:51 [zednik]

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15:01:53 [tlebo]

I'll scribe

15:02:00 [Luc]

scribe: tlebo

15:02:27 [tlebo]

luc: good afternoon.

15:02:30 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller.aa]

15:02:35 [jun]

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15:02:39 [tlebo]

... trying to close issues leading to F2F

15:02:51 [Luc]

Proposed: approve Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

15:02:55 [tlebo]

topic: admin issues

15:03:01 [Paolo]

+1

15:03:02 [jun]

+1

15:03:03 [tlebo]

proposed: approve last week's minutes

15:03:06 [zednik]

+1

15:03:12 [tlebo]

+1

15:03:20 [Zakim]

+ +1.818.731.aabb

15:03:23 [hook]

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15:03:47 [Zakim]

+[IPcaller.aaa]

15:03:48 [Zakim]

+??P14

15:03:51 [Luc]

Accepted: Minutes of the October 25, 2012 Telecon

15:03:59 [tlebo]

accepted: minutes approved.

15:04:10 [smiles]

zakim, ??P14 is me

15:04:10 [Zakim]

+smiles; got it

15:04:10 [tlebo]

topic: outstanding actions

15:04:31 [GK1]

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15:04:38 [tlebo]

tim has not done the cross referencing yet.

15:05:07 [tlebo]

tim: the cross referencing is editorial

15:05:23 [tlebo]

Stian's 118 can be closed

15:05:43 [tlebo]

121 - Tim's action on subclassing.

15:06:20 [Luc]

topic: exit criteria

15:06:22 [tlebo]

luc: not that we do NOT have a telecon next Thur., since F2F is Friday.

15:06:28 [Luc]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0305.html

15:06:42 [tlebo]

luc: paul sent proposal to accept criteria.

15:06:47 [tlebo]

... all responses were positive.

15:07:01 [Luc]

q?

15:07:01 [tlebo]

... can we record approval? any objections?

15:07:16 [Luc]

accepted: CR Exit Criteria defined at http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvCRExitCriteria are approved

15:07:42 [tlebo]

luc: questionaire. Is it ready to submit to W3C management team?

15:07:55 [Zakim]

-MacTed

15:08:36 [tlebo]

zednik: trying to fix Paul's last issue on it. Implementation consuming external construct. Will address them today and get confirmation, will send it out.

15:08:54 [tlebo]

zednik: will try to finish it today.

15:09:23 [tlebo]

luc: will try to have an email vote ahead of the F2F

15:09:26 [Luc]

q?

15:09:43 [Luc]

topic: Prov-o Issues

15:10:06 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/10

15:10:10 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/3

15:11:01 [tlebo]

349 can be closed

15:11:57 [tlebo]

479 can be clsoed b/c we are not using Trig.

15:12:09 [tlebo]

491 was Stian handling it.

15:12:35 [tlebo]

Luc: Tim to draft response and contact reviewer.

15:13:25 [khalidBelhajjame]

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+??P13

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15:13:44 [GK1]

zakim, ??p13 is me

15:13:44 [Zakim]

+GK1; got it

15:13:53 [tlebo]

Tim: I''l hunt down everthing there...

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+ +1.661.382.aacc

15:14:16 [CraigTrim]

zakim, aacc is me

15:14:17 [Zakim]

+CraigTrim; got it

15:15:46 [Luc]

Rephrasing in prov-dm: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/rev/363ce30cec66

15:15:53 [tlebo]

Tim: 552 is the only big issue, and I'll start it after this call.

15:16:31 [tlebo]

luc: new definitions include "relation"

15:17:37 [tlebo]

luc: change of text, but not of the ontology.

15:18:09 [tlebo]

tlebo: my approach will be to change the text.

15:18:41 [tlebo]

luc: draft response, group approves, convey change to commenter, and have acknowledgment before F2F.

15:19:04 [Luc]

q?

15:19:16 [tlebo]

... can we vote, so that the acknowledgement can be sent to the commenter on Monday.

15:19:38 [Luc]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-comments/2012Nov/0000.html

15:20:34 [tlebo]

tim: my impression was that it is just an announcement.

15:21:05 [tlebo]

luc: they are using wasInfluencedBy, but the rec suggest to use a subproperty.

15:21:55 [Luc]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:21:55 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Luc, [IPcaller], tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

15:22:02 [tlebo]

tlebo: yes, we can look at their use and suggest to use a subproperty.

15:22:24 [Luc]

topic: PROV-Constraints issues

15:22:54 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/12

15:23:09 [tlebo]

jcheney: isssues were raised from the feedback last week.

15:23:41 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#PROV-CONSTRAINTS.28Under_review.29

15:23:43 [tlebo]

... haven't heard any feedback beyond minor typos.

15:24:09 [tlebo]

... unless objection, would like to send the responses to the commenters.

15:24:19 [tlebo]

... two more issues that are leftover from last call. internal.

15:24:22 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller]

15:24:25 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

15:24:59 [tlebo]

... made propsoed change and considers it done. Do we need to send a formal response?

15:25:15 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/522

15:25:16 [tlebo]

... the comment spread from issue on DM

15:25:24 [tlebo]

luc: we need to approve responses.

15:26:30 [Luc]

PROPOSED: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579, issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581

15:28:15 [tlebo]

jcheney: the constraints doc is not addressing how to implement them in OWL etc.

15:28:18 [tlebo]

+1

15:28:38 [Luc]

zakim, who is on the phone?

15:28:38 [Zakim]

On the phone I see Luc, tlebo, [IPcaller.a], [IPcaller.aa], +1.818.731.aabb, [IPcaller.aaa], smiles, GK1, CraigTrim

15:28:49 [GK]

0 (not reviewed or followed discussion)

15:28:58 [smiles]

+1 (though I admit to not having read them all thoroughly...)

15:29:05 [khalidBelhajjame]

+1

15:29:12 [zednik]

+1

15:29:33 [Luc]

accepted: The group endorses the responses to issue-556, issue-576, issue-582, issue-586, issue-587, issue-588, issue-584, issue-579, issue-585, issue-583, issue-580, issue-577, issue-578, issue-581

15:29:43 [jun]

+0 (haven't been able to review)

15:31:01 [tlebo]

jcheney: I'll contact the commenters instead of Paul

15:31:12 [CraigTrim]

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15:31:12 [tlebo]

luc: any other changes?

15:31:25 [tlebo]

jcheney: all that are necessary are done.

15:31:37 [tlebo]

... some quick issues to get feedback:

15:32:01 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/559

15:32:28 [tlebo]

... 559 was a side effect, do we need to make a formal response?

15:32:47 [tlebo]

luc: was an internal comment.

15:32:54 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/575

15:33:04 [satya]

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15:33:07 [tlebo]

jcheney: links between identifier fields.

15:33:08 [jcheney]

http://www.w3.org/TR/prov-dm/#entity.id

15:33:28 [Zakim]

+Satya_Sahoo

15:33:46 [tlebo]

luc: i'll do it after the call

15:34:26 [tlebo]

... in responses, can you ask them to acknowledge and whether they are satisfied?

15:34:32 [Luc]

q?

15:34:42 [Luc]

topic: prov-n issues

15:34:58 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/11

15:35:04 [tlebo]

luc: only 2 issues

15:35:39 [tlebo]

... ivan was fine, but we want to confirm...

15:36:05 [tlebo]

... namespace declarations and bundles. bundles do not "inherit" prefixes.

15:36:32 [Luc]

q?

15:36:32 [tlebo]

q+

15:36:33 [GK]

q+

15:36:55 [GK]

q-

15:37:19 [Luc]

ack tl

15:37:26 [tlebo]

@gk probably would have stated it better...

15:38:02 [tlebo]

gk: same point as Tim, you were responding to URIs of entities

15:38:11 [tlebo]

luc: do we need to revise?

15:38:23 [jcheney]

Currently says: "The scope of a namespace declaration directly occurring in a document is the document itself, excluding the bundles it may contain."

15:38:25 [tlebo]

... one benefit is that bundles are totally distinct.

15:38:52 [jcheney]

This forces you to repeat prefixes in common cases, including many natural-looking examples in prov-dm

15:39:00 [Luc]

q?

15:39:40 [Luc]

q?

15:40:04 [Luc]

q?

15:40:12 [Luc]

scribe: smiles

15:40:15 [jcheney]

q+

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15:40:53 [GK]

I was saying that I thought the current design is maybe sub-optimal for human use, but not fatally flawed.

15:41:04 [tlebo_]

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15:41:21 [Luc]

q?

15:41:23 [smiles]

jcheney: Missed original change to excluding namespaces in top-level bundle; changing the scope to include the namespaces from top-level might not break anything?

15:41:54 [smiles]

Luc: Would need to get advice on whether this is only an editorial change

15:42:08 [smiles]

... How strongly do you feel about this?

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15:43:01 [smiles]

jcheney: There are situations where it is useful to think of bundles as independent and copy-paste without worrying about top-level, but using namespace without repeating declaration throughout a document is common

15:43:45 [smiles]

... Natural expectation is that if you state something then embedded scopes would include that thing

15:44:05 [tlebo]

FWIW, Turtle and Trig permits the prefixes to be defined once and used in any of many "bundle".

15:44:06 [smiles]

Luc: Are we willing to go ahead with change even if it is not just editoral, i.e. back to LC

15:44:26 [tlebo]

This is not worth going back to Last Call for.

15:44:37 [smiles]

jcheney: It is something that people will anyway notice and complain about in implementation

15:44:44 [GK]

Maybe ask Ivan if this would need to redo last call. It seems a small change, albeit technical.

15:44:56 [ivan]

if I may, just on IRC...

15:45:02 [ivan]

this is not a design change

15:45:09 [Luc]

thanks ivan

15:45:18 [ivan]

this is a change in a syntactic sugar

15:45:25 [Luc]

ok

15:45:35 [ivan]

it would influence implementations, but that is not the issue for LC

15:45:53 [smiles]

Luc: Given the above, it would be good to know the WG's preference

15:46:05 [Luc]

show of hand: allow scope of prefix declarations

15:46:40 [tlebo]

+1 because that's how it's done in Turtle/Trig, -1 b/c PROV-N is for examples in Recs :-)

15:46:59 [smiles]

satya: Please clarify question

15:47:13 [GK]

+0.5 to top-level namespaces visible in contained bundles in PROV-N (next question: can they be redefined in inner bundles?)

15:47:22 [jcheney]

See namespace scope rules in http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

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15:47:44 [smiles]

Luc: Currently in PROV-N, when declaring prefix at top level and want to re-use in nested bundle, have to redeclare prefix in bundle

15:47:48 [jcheney]

Currently, this is illegal:

15:47:53 [jcheney]

document prefix ex <http://example.org/> bundle ex:b1 entity(ex:e1, ...someattr1...) entity(ex:e1, ...someattr2...) endBundle endDocument

15:48:05 [jcheney]

because ex is not re-declared inside the bundle

15:49:02 [smiles]

Luc: @GK, yes, prefixes could be redefined in inner bundles

15:49:24 [jcheney]

I http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#expression-NamespaceDeclaration

15:49:42 [smiles]

jcheney: Suggest just changing sentence in PROV-N from "excluding the bundles it may contain" to "including..."

15:50:07 [tlebo]

reusing throughout and allowing redefinition in inner bundles would make it much more useful for humans to read and write.

15:50:13 [smiles]

... People have been writing examples that assume the proposed change without realising

15:50:14 [GK]

Seems to me easier to change the text than the examples

15:50:16 [Luc]

proposed: change scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

15:50:30 [trackbot]

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15:50:36 [satya]

+1 to change text

15:50:38 [smiles]

+1

15:50:41 [GK]

+1

15:50:46 [jcheney]

+1

15:50:53 [ivan]

+1

15:50:54 [jun]

+1

15:50:56 [tlebo]

+.5

15:51:01 [zednik]

+1

15:51:10 [Luc]

accepted: change scope of prefix declaration so that it includes bundles

15:51:31 [smiles]

Luc: Next issue: MIME types

15:51:44 [smiles]

Luc: @GK, did you look at changes implemented?

15:52:02 [smiles]

GK: No

15:52:20 [smiles]

Luc: Can you prioritise issue 573?

15:52:51 [smiles]

Luc: Everything else covered in PROV-N aside from two issues above

15:52:57 [Luc]

topic: PROV-DM issues

15:53:17 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/products/2

15:53:37 [smiles]

Luc: Two issues waiting for confirmation from reviewers on changes

15:53:48 [smiles]

... and issue 475 on mention

15:54:08 [smiles]

... every other change implemented and logged

15:54:29 [Luc]

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2012Oct/0321.html

15:54:43 [Luc]

q?

15:54:52 [smiles]

Luc: Regarding issue 475, did not get response on issue

15:54:52 [jcheney]

q-

15:55:31 [smiles]

Luc: GK suggested dropping this feature at risk

15:56:04 [smiles]

Luc: Conclusion of my response is that we want feedback from implementers

15:56:17 [smiles]

... As we exit CR phase, can look at suitability

15:56:36 [Luc]

q?

15:56:46 [smiles]

Luc: Any feedback now?

15:56:50 [tlebo]

+1 to keep it in, marked as at risk.

15:57:22 [Luc]

http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ResponsesToPublicComments#ISSUE-475_.28Mention.29

15:57:39 [Luc]

q?

15:57:41 [smiles]

Luc: Is the group satisfied with this answer, and to vote now?

15:57:55 [Luc]

q?

15:58:11 [smiles]

... or vote by email?

15:58:11 [Luc]

q?

15:58:26 [smiles]

+1 to vote by email

15:58:27 [zednik]

I like vote by email

15:58:36 [jcheney]

+1 email

15:58:38 [tlebo]

vote by email seems to be the resounding response. I know I could use a bit more time to work through it entirely.

15:59:18 [smiles]

Luc: Will send an email with a deadline

15:59:24 [Luc]

topic: prov-xml

16:00:06 [Zakim]

-Satya_Sahoo

16:00:17 [smiles]

zednik: We have made significant changes to XML note, including table of features mapping PROV-DM to XSD, plus examples with excerpts of schema

16:00:40 [zednik]

http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/1816251fd592/xml/prov-xml.html

16:00:46 [smiles]

... Now looking for feedback on the HTML

16:01:48 [smiles]

Luc: Thanks. There is an opportunity to release first WD of this doc with CRs of other specs. Will it be ready?

16:02:23 [smiles]

... Next week we would take a vote, discuss with W3C management to publish CRs, so two weeks for XML document before publishing

16:02:39 [hook]

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16:02:52 [smiles]

zednik: Probably get ready in two weeks, but need to address WG comments, ensure there is no gaps (e.g. bundles)

16:03:12 [smiles]

Luc: Would be nice to have review taking place during week

16:03:17 [Zakim]

- +1.818.731.aabb

16:03:24 [Luc]

q?

16:03:32 [jcheney]

sure

16:03:34 [smiles]

... Who is willing to review PROV-XML document?

16:03:45 [tlebo]

one what timeframe?

16:03:46 [Zakim]

+ +1.818.731.aadd

16:03:47 [hook]

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16:04:02 [tlebo]

thanks. Then no :-)

16:04:03 [smiles]

Luc: Feedback in time for F2F

16:04:19 [smiles]

... Question for reviewers: Can we release this document as a FPWD

16:05:06 [smiles]

Luc: Intent to include XML in primer. Feasible to include for release?

16:05:51 [smiles]

smiles: For primer, if given XML fragments, then quick job to add

16:06:07 [smiles]

zednik: Possibly, but need to look at examples in primer

16:06:20 [GK]

@luc - the text/provenance-notation MIME registration revisions look fine to me at http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/prov-n.html#media-type

16:06:24 [hook]

might need to check latest fragments for bundles per recent updates

16:06:36 [Zakim]

-CraigTrim

16:06:37 [Zakim]

-tlebo

16:06:39 [Zakim]

-smiles

16:06:45 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller.aaa]

16:06:47 [Zakim]

-Luc

16:06:50 [GK]

GK has left #prov

16:06:50 [Zakim]

- +1.818.731.aadd

16:06:51 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller.a]

16:06:51 [Zakim]

-[IPcaller.aa]

16:07:16 [Zakim]

-GK1

16:07:17 [Zakim]

SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

16:07:17 [Zakim]

Attendees were Luc, [IPcaller], +1.315.330.aaaa, tlebo, MacTed, +1.818.731.aabb, smiles, GK1, +1.661.382.aacc, CraigTrim, Satya_Sahoo, +1.818.731.aadd

16:07:18 [Luc]

rrsagent, set log public

16:07:22 [Luc]

rrsagent, draft minutes

16:07:22 [RRSAgent]

I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/11/01-prov-minutes.html Luc

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