edit

Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 02 August 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.08.02
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Hook Hua, Ivan Herman, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Luc Moreau, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Timothy Lebo, Tom De Nies
Regrets
Luc Moreau
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Daniel Garijo, Timothy Lebo
IRC Log
Original
Resolutions
  1. Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon link
Topics
  1. Admin

    The group welcomed Ivan as the new W3C staff contact and he introduced himself.

  2. action items

    Several reviews have been supplied for PROV-Constraints. Stian will have his done this week. James believes that all comments so far can be succesfully addressed. The plan is to deliver a new version early next week for a Last Call vote at the next telecon. Two specific issues were discussed. The group agreed that issue 458 was addressed by leaving out the constraint making wasInfluencedBy irreflexive. The group discussed whether there should be an inference to say that any subtypes of agents were also entities. The group felt that adding this constraint would need more discussion and given the timetable should not be added.

  3. Prox-xml

    Stephan gave an update. All constructs for prov-xml have now be assigned in order to produce examples by Aug 15. Stephan will give an update as to whether more help is required on this task next week as he works through the examples.

  4. PROV-DC

    Daniel asked for reviews of the recently released dublin core - prov mappings editor's draft. Sam, Simon, Tom and Ivan agreed to look at it. Additionally, Daniel agreed to add a link to the turtle file that encodes these mappings. They can then be placed in the ns namespace.

  5. Handling Comments

    Ivan gave an update on handling public comments, in particular, what constitutes a technical change. Essentially, it is a judgement call but the technical design should not change. There was a particular question around renaming a construct in PROV-O, this is not considered a technical change as it does not impact the design. The process for tracking public comments was discussed. Ivan suggested that perhaps creating new products would be a better approach. However, the group agreed that the current process was ok.

14:49:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-irc

14:49:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:49:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:49:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:49:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:49:33 <trackbot> Date: 02 August 2012
14:49:36 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:49:36 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes

14:49:52 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.08.02
14:50:30 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:50:44 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

14:50:50 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

14:50:56 <pgroth> Regrets: Luc Moreau
14:57:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:57:24 <Zakim> +??P2

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2

14:57:31 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P2 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P2 is me

14:57:31 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:59:19 <Zakim> +??P8

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P8

15:00:07 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:00:18 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aaaa

15:00:18 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

15:00:24 <jun> zakim, ??p10 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??p10 is me

15:00:24 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

15:00:34 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.818.731.aabb

15:00:38 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, +329 is me

15:00:38 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +TomDN; got it

15:00:42 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.789.470.aacc

15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aadd

15:00:50 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

Tom De Nies: Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN

15:00:50 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens; got it

15:00:53 <tlebo> zakim, I am aadd

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aadd

15:00:53 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

15:01:04 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:01:14 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:01:14 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:01:15 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:01:33 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:01:35 <Zakim> +tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo

15:01:35 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me

Tom De Nies: Zakim, mute me

15:01:35 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should now be muted

15:01:49 <tlebo> I'll scribe

Timothy Lebo: I'll scribe

15:01:55 <pgroth> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: The group welcomed Ivan as the new W3C staff contact and he introduced himself.

<pgroth> Summary: The group welcomed Ivan as the new W3C staff contact and he introduced himself.
15:02:01 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-26

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-26

15:02:01 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo

(Scribe set to Timothy Lebo)

15:02:10 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon

Paul Groth: Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon

15:02:17 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:02:18 <TomDN> +1

Tom De Nies: +1

15:02:18 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:02:19 <zednik> +1

Stephan Zednik: +1

15:02:19 <tlebo> proposal: accept minutes

PROPOSED: accept minutes

15:02:26 <jun> +1

Jun Zhao: +1

15:02:27 <hook> +1

Hook Hua: +1

15:02:39 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:02:41 <tlebo> +1

+1

15:02:45 <stain> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

15:02:53 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon

RESOLVED: Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon

15:03:19 <tlebo> topic: action items

2. action items

Summary: Several reviews have been supplied for PROV-Constraints. Stian will have his done this week. James believes that all comments so far can be succesfully addressed. The plan is to deliver a new version early next week for a Last Call vote at the next telecon. Two specific issues were discussed. The group agreed that issue 458 was addressed by leaving out the constraint making wasInfluencedBy irreflexive. The group discussed whether there should be an inference to say that any subtypes of agents were also entities. The group felt that adding this constraint would need more discussion and given the timetable should not be added.

15:03:38 <tlebo> paul: is still working on his action

Paul Groth: is still working on his action

15:03:50 <tlebo> ... Ivan is joining the WG as W3C POC

... Ivan is joining the WG as W3C POC

15:04:08 <tlebo> ivan: hi!

Ivan Herman: hi!

15:04:24 <tlebo> ... sandro will be doing a bit in Aug, but Ivan will be around and back from vacation

... sandro will be doing a bit in Aug, but Ivan will be around and back from vacation

15:04:36 <tlebo> ... working through all of our documents now.

... working through all of our documents now.

15:04:52 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +44.131.467.aaee

15:05:00 <tlebo> paul: please sign up for scribes

Paul Groth: please sign up for scribes

15:05:03 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P8, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, +44.789.470.aacc, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, +44.131.467.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P8, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, +44.789.470.aacc, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, +44.131.467.aaee

15:05:04 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

15:05:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro

15:05:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:05:10 <tlebo> ... aob?

... aob?

15:05:29 <tlebo> ivan: get unknowns identified

Ivan Herman: get unknowns identified

15:05:42 <jcheney> zakim, aaee is me

James Cheney: zakim, aaee is me

15:05:42 <tlebo> paul: who is P8?

Paul Groth: who is P8?

15:05:47 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:06:03 <smiles> or me

Simon Miles: or me

15:06:05 <jun> not me

Jun Zhao: not me

15:06:14 <smiles> zakim, P8 is probably me

Simon Miles: zakim, P8 is probably me

15:06:17 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aacc is me

Stian Soiland-Reyes: Zakim, +44.789.470.aacc is me

15:06:21 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

15:06:23 <Zakim> sorry, smiles, I do not understand your question

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, smiles, I do not understand your question

15:06:24 <stain> he knew me last week!

Stian Soiland-Reyes: he knew me last week!

15:06:25 <Zakim> +stain; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +stain; got it

15:06:26 <smiles> zakim, ??P8 is probably me

Simon Miles: zakim, ??P8 is probably me

15:06:30 <tlebo> 818 is san fran

818 is san fran

15:06:31 <Zakim> +smiles?; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +smiles?; got it

15:06:31 <pgroth>  Topic: PROV-Constraints

Paul Groth: Topic: PROV-Constraints

<pgroth> Summary: Several reviews have been supplied for PROV-Constraints. Stian will have his done this week. James believes that all comments so far can be succesfully addressed. The plan is to deliver a new version early next week for a Last Call vote at the next telecon. Two specific issues were discussed. The group agreed that issue 458 was addressed by leaving out the constraint making wasInfluencedBy irreflexive. The group discussed whether there should be an inference to say that any subtypes of agents were also entities. The group felt that adding this constraint would need more discussion and given the timetable should not be added.
15:07:10 <tlebo> jcheney: read reviews as they came in. They seem to identify things that we can fix easily.

James Cheney: read reviews as they came in. They seem to identify things that we can fix easily.

15:07:12 <pgroth> james?

Paul Groth: james?

15:07:16 <tlebo> ... not sig technical changes.

... not sig technical changes.

15:07:16 <pgroth> i lost my connection..

Paul Groth: i lost my connection..

15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

15:07:41 <Zakim> +??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22

15:07:43 <tlebo> q+ to ask what the constraints timeline is

q+ to ask what the constraints timeline is

15:07:44 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P9 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P9 is me

15:07:45 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:07:57 <tlebo> go ahead, James

go ahead, James

15:08:02 <dgarijo> is there a scribe? I can scribe.

Daniel Garijo: is there a scribe? I can scribe.

15:08:08 <tlebo> @dgarijo you take scribe

@dgarijo you take scribe

15:08:11 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

15:08:11 <tlebo> scribe: dgarijo

(Scribe set to Daniel Garijo)

15:08:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here?

Ivan Herman: zakim, who is here?

15:08:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see smiles?, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, stain, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo, ??P22

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see smiles?, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, stain, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo, ??P22

15:08:15 <dgarijo> ok

ok

15:08:16 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens

15:08:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, satya, jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dgarijo, satya, jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro

15:08:28 <stain> I am almost finished today

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I am almost finished today

15:08:29 <dgarijo> jcheney: waiting for 1 outstanding review from stian

James Cheney: waiting for 1 outstanding review from stian

15:08:36 <stain> typing in my evil email..

Stian Soiland-Reyes: typing in my evil email..

15:08:37 <tlebo> q?

Timothy Lebo: q?

15:08:44 <ivan> zakim, ??P22 is pgroth

Ivan Herman: zakim, ??P22 is pgroth

15:08:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

15:09:10 <dgarijo> ... plan is review things early next week in order to be able to have a vote next meeting

... plan is review things early next week in order to be able to have a vote next meeting

15:09:19 <dgarijo> ... and just worry about minor stuff from there

... and just worry about minor stuff from there

15:09:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:09:31 <tlebo> so, we're voting on this next Thus?

Timothy Lebo: so, we're voting on this next Thus?

15:09:46 <dgarijo> tlebo: are we voting on this next thursday?

Timothy Lebo: are we voting on this next thursday?

15:09:49 <dgarijo> pgroth: yes

Paul Groth: yes

15:10:07 <dgarijo> tlebo: ok, I'll look for responses next week.

Timothy Lebo: ok, I'll look for responses next week.

15:10:19 <dgarijo> tlebo: I'll be looking for those

Timothy Lebo: I'll be looking for those

15:10:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:10:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: in my review there were no blockers

Paul Groth: in my review there were no blockers

15:10:34 <tlebo> @jcheney they're mini blockers :-)

Timothy Lebo: @jcheney they're mini blockers :-)

15:10:42 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

15:10:45 <stain> I think my review has a tiny blocker .. :-/

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I think my review has a tiny blocker .. :-/

15:10:48 <stain> but editorial

Stian Soiland-Reyes: but editorial

15:10:48 <dgarijo> pgroth: Issue 458

Paul Groth: ISSUE-458

15:10:49 <ivan> issue-458?

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-458?

15:10:49 <trackbot> ISSUE-458 -- wasInfluencedBy is not irreflexive -- raised

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-458 -- wasInfluencedBy is not irreflexive -- raised

15:10:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458

15:11:01 <dgarijo> ... is influence reflexive or not

... is influence reflexive or not

15:11:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458

15:11:24 <pgroth> yes

Paul Groth: yes

15:11:27 <tlebo> I was the biggest proponent of irreflexive, and I'm no longer protesting to removing it.

Timothy Lebo: I was the biggest proponent of irreflexive, and I'm no longer protesting to removing it.

15:11:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:11:38 <smiles> I agree with removing the constraint

Simon Miles: I agree with removing the constraint

15:11:40 <dgarijo> jcheney: does anybody objects to removing that constraint?

James Cheney: does anybody objects to removing that constraint?

15:11:40 <tlebo> (so it's all good)

Timothy Lebo: (so it's all good)

15:11:45 <dgarijo> ... OK, closed

... OK, closed

15:12:11 <tlebo> @dgarijo "accepted" is the keyword for a resolution

Timothy Lebo: @dgarijo "accepted" is the keyword for a resolution

15:12:24 <dgarijo> @tlebo, thanks.

@tlebo, thanks.

15:12:31 <pgroth> Agent(ex:Luc,[prov;type='prov:Person'])  Activity(ex:Luc)

Paul Groth: Agent(ex:Luc,[prov;type='prov:Person']) Activity(ex:Luc)

15:12:46 <TomDN> +q

Tom De Nies: +q

15:12:55 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me

Tom De Nies: zakim, unmute me

15:12:55 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: TomDN should no longer be muted

15:13:01 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:13:06 <dgarijo> pgroth: the other issue was agent being an activity as well. Should we allow that in the constraints?

Paul Groth: the other issue was agent being an activity as well. Should we allow that in the constraints?

15:13:25 <stain> would that imply also Activity(ex:Luc,[prov:type='prov:Person'])

Stian Soiland-Reyes: would that imply also Activity(ex:Luc,[prov:type='prov:Person'])

15:13:44 <dgarijo> tom: I haven't followed the email about it, but agent can also be an entity.

Tom De Nies: I haven't followed the email about it, but agent can also be an entity.

15:14:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: if you assert that Luc is an entity, it can't be an activity.

Paul Groth: if you assert that Luc is an entity, it can't be an activity.

15:14:14 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:14:24 <pgroth> ack TomDN

Paul Groth: ack TomDN

15:14:35 <dgarijo> jcheney: I'm agnostic. It won't break anything to allow people to say that.

James Cheney: I'm agnostic. It won't break anything to allow people to say that.

15:14:35 <tlebo> from the hip, I think we shouldn't add this.

Timothy Lebo: from the hip, I think we shouldn't add this.

15:14:45 <stain> agent(ex:workflowEngine, [prov:type='prov:SoftwareAgent'])   activity(ex:workflowEngine)  would probably make more sense in some cases

Stian Soiland-Reyes: agent(ex:workflowEngine, [prov:type='prov:SoftwareAgent']) activity(ex:workflowEngine) would probably make more sense in some cases

15:15:04 <dgarijo> smiles: I agree with what Tom says. If an agent is a person, then we can infer it's a person.

Simon Miles: I agree with what Tom says. If an agent is a person, then we can infer it's a person.

15:15:05 <pgroth> ack smiles

Paul Groth: ack smiles

15:15:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: that will imply that all persons are entities.

Paul Groth: that will imply that all persons are entities.

15:15:43 <TomDN> it could be an inference, and normalization would always produce agent(Luc, [prov:Person]) -> entity(Luc)

Tom De Nies: it could be an inference, and normalization would always produce agent(Luc, [prov:Person]) -> entity(Luc)

15:16:06 <stain> used(food, ex:Luc)  wasAssociatedWith(ex:cooking, ex:Luc)  wasGeneratedBy(ex:food, ex:cooking)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: used(food, ex:Luc) wasAssociatedWith(ex:cooking, ex:Luc) wasGeneratedBy(ex:food, ex:cooking)

15:16:22 <dgarijo> pgroth: if we want it, then we could add that inference.

Paul Groth: if we want it, then we could add that inference.

15:16:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:16:48 <dgarijo> tlebo: surprised of the proposal. Is it an issue that went through the list

Timothy Lebo: surprised of the proposal. Is it an issue that went through the list

15:16:49 <dgarijo> ?

?

15:16:52 <stain> yes, should be a proper issue!

Stian Soiland-Reyes: yes, should be a proper issue!

15:17:11 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

15:17:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: we can discuss it on the list, but I was wondering if we could just drop it or discuss it a bit here.

Paul Groth: we can discuss it on the list, but I was wondering if we could just drop it or discuss it a bit here.

15:17:41 <pgroth> ack jcheney

Paul Groth: ack jcheney

15:17:41 <stain> can animals be activities? lifeforms?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: can animals be activities? lifeforms?

15:17:43 <TomDN> machines shouldn't be activities either...

Tom De Nies: machines shouldn't be activities either...

15:18:13 <satya> @TomDN, assuming that machines are "hardware"

Satya Sahoo: @TomDN, assuming that machines are "hardware"

15:18:48 <tlebo> why single out Person? Why are Organizations allowed to be Activities?

Timothy Lebo: why single out Person? Why are Organizations allowed to be Activities?

15:18:48 <stain> a human is in some sense just a system of biological activities working together

Stian Soiland-Reyes: a human is in some sense just a system of biological activities working together

15:18:53 <dgarijo> jcheney: we should be removing things as much as possible.

James Cheney: we should be removing things as much as possible.

15:19:22 <Curt> There was a use case of something like a "working group" which is both an agent and an activity (I disagree with that)

Curt Tilmes: There was a use case of something like a "working group" which is both an agent and an activity (I disagree with that)

15:19:25 <dgarijo> pgroth: even if we don't include something like that I don't know if we can add this after last call.

Paul Groth: even if we don't include something like that I don't know if we can add this after last call.

15:19:33 <dgarijo> pgroth: Ivan, can we do that.

Paul Groth: Ivan, can we do that.

15:19:44 <dgarijo> Ivan: that would be a technical change.

Ivan Herman: that would be a technical change.

15:19:54 <stain> Curt: but then this all falls back to "are there *any* agents that can be activities?"

Curt Tilmes: but then this all falls back to "are there *any* agents that can be activities?" [ Scribe Assist by Stian Soiland-Reyes ]

15:20:01 <dgarijo> ... but constraints is not in last call.

... but constraints is not in last call.

15:20:03 <stain> @Curt

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @Curt

15:21:12 <dgarijo> pgroth: so I think james is right. This is going to open up a lot of discussion and given our time line, we should not add it yet.

Paul Groth: so I think james is right. This is going to open up a lot of discussion and given our time line, we should not add it yet.

15:21:13 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:21:16 <Curt> +1 pgroth

Curt Tilmes: +1 pgroth

15:21:23 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:21:24 <tlebo> @pgroth that's a good response: add the explicit type Entity

Timothy Lebo: @pgroth that's a good response: add the explicit type Entity

15:21:28 <stain> I think it would not cause any problems to not say something rather than to say something. It does not affect anything else in the constraints if the prov:Person is an activity or not, and PROV-Constraints is not attempting to model the world, just how processes and things are modelled in a sane way

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I think it would not cause any problems to not say something rather than to say something. It does not affect anything else in the constraints if the prov:Person is an activity or not, and PROV-Constraints is not attempting to model the world, just how processes and things are modelled in a sane way

15:21:30 <TomDN> @pgroth: +1, could we add that as a remark?

Tom De Nies: @pgroth: +1, could we add that as a remark?

15:21:48 <dgarijo> ... if anybody wants to assert that persons are not activities, then they can assert it.

... if anybody wants to assert that persons are not activities, then they can assert it.

15:22:00 <dgarijo> +1 to pgroth.

+1 to pgroth.

15:22:20 <dgarijo> jcheney: I will review questions. I don't have anything more specific

James Cheney: I will review questions. I don't have anything more specific

15:22:28 <pgroth> Topic: Prox-xml

3. Prox-xml

Summary: Stephan gave an update. All constructs for prov-xml have now be assigned in order to produce examples by Aug 15. Stephan will give an update as to whether more help is required on this task next week as he works through the examples.

<pgroth> Summary: Stephan gave an update. All constructs for prov-xml have now be assigned in order to produce examples by Aug 15. Stephan will give an update as to whether more help is required on this task next week as he works through the examples.
15:23:10 <Curt> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aon9DSj-WtGqdHJocGtPRGp5MTItbEhLX09sN1NxVVE#gid=0

Curt Tilmes: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aon9DSj-WtGqdHJocGtPRGp5MTItbEhLX09sN1NxVVE#gid=0

15:23:22 <dgarijo> szednik: We are going to try to have xml examples by august 15th.

Stephan Zednik: We are going to try to have xml examples by august 15th.

15:23:35 <dgarijo> ... hopefully next week.

... hopefully next week.

15:23:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: any additional help?

Paul Groth: any additional help?

15:24:04 <dgarijo> szednik: I'll be able to say next week, when I've taken a stab at it

Stephan Zednik: I'll be able to say next week, when I've taken a stab at it

15:24:17 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:24:31 <Curt> (anyone who wants the doc, just request it through google docs and stephan will approve)

Curt Tilmes: (anyone who wants the doc, just request it through google docs and stephan will approve)

15:24:35 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DC

4. PROV-DC

Summary: Daniel asked for reviews of the recently released dublin core - prov mappings editor's draft. Sam, Simon, Tom and Ivan agreed to look at it. Additionally, Daniel agreed to add a link to the turtle file that encodes these mappings. They can then be placed in the ns namespace.

<pgroth> Summary: Daniel asked for reviews of the recently released dublin core - prov mappings editor's draft. Sam, Simon, Tom and Ivan agreed to look at it. Additionally, Daniel agreed to add a link to the turtle file that encodes these mappings. They can then be placed in the ns namespace.
15:24:41 <pgroth> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/6b795ed2e6c9/dc-note/Overview.html

Paul Groth: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/6b795ed2e6c9/dc-note/Overview.html

15:24:45 <ivan> (Curt, I did it)

Ivan Herman: (Curt, I did it)

15:25:05 <tlebo> dgarijo: releaed it last week into hg

Daniel Garijo: releaed it last week into hg [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:25:20 <tlebo> ... asking those to reviewed last time to see if they agree to the changes.

Timothy Lebo: ... asking those to reviewed last time to see if they agree to the changes.

15:25:29 <tlebo> .. please raise issues

Timothy Lebo: .. please raise issues

15:25:33 <tlebo> ... document is not long.

Timothy Lebo: ... document is not long.

15:25:49 <tlebo> pgroth: reviewers?

Paul Groth: reviewers? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:25:53 <SamCoppens> I will

Sam Coppens: I will

15:25:54 <smiles> I will review it

Simon Miles: I will review it

15:25:57 <TomDN> I started on a review

Tom De Nies: I started on a review

15:26:04 <dgarijo> thanks!!

thanks!!

15:26:14 <ivan> I will also look at it

Ivan Herman: I will also look at it

15:26:15 <ivan> q+

Ivan Herman: q+

15:26:22 <pgroth> ack ivan

Paul Groth: ack ivan

15:26:56 <tlebo> ivan: turtle file to put into /ns?

Ivan Herman: turtle file to put into /ns? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:27:26 <tlebo> dgarijo: the turtle files is in hg, will send the link.

Daniel Garijo: the turtle files is in hg, will send the link. [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:27:38 <tlebo> pgroth: add link to turtle file?

Paul Groth: add link to turtle file? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:28:08 <tlebo> ivan: where to put final version of turtle file?

Ivan Herman: where to put final version of turtle file? [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:29:00 <dgarijo> dgarijo: I will add the links to the turtel files of each example in the repository. They are there but not linked in the document.

Daniel Garijo: I will add the links to the turtel files of each example in the repository. They are there but not linked in the document.

15:29:01 <tlebo> pgroth: the WG also needs to make the full concat for prov.owl with prov-o in it.

Paul Groth: the WG also needs to make the full concat for prov.owl with prov-o in it. [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:29:10 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:29:16 <tlebo> @pgroth me too :-)

Timothy Lebo: @pgroth me too :-)

15:29:26 <pgroth> Topic: Handling Comments

5. Handling Comments

Summary: Ivan gave an update on handling public comments, in particular, what constitutes a technical change. Essentially, it is a judgement call but the technical design should not change. There was a particular question around renaming a construct in PROV-O, this is not considered a technical change as it does not impact the design. The process for tracking public comments was discussed. Ivan suggested that perhaps creating new products would be a better approach. However, the group agreed that the current process was ok.

<pgroth> Summary: Ivan gave an update on handling public comments, in particular, what constitutes a technical change. Essentially, it is a judgement call but the technical design should not change. There was a particular question around renaming a construct in PROV-O, this is not considered a technical change as it does not impact the design. The process for tracking public comments was discussed. Ivan suggested that perhaps creating new products would be a better approach. However, the group agreed that the current process was ok.
15:29:40 <dgarijo> pgroth: we discussed last week how to handle public comments

Paul Groth: we discussed last week how to handle public comments

15:30:03 <dgarijo> pgroth: there was a question about what is a technical comment

Paul Groth: there was a question about what is a technical comment

15:30:24 <dgarijo> ... ivan and sandro talked to thomas and have an update.

... ivan and sandro talked to thomas and have an update.

15:31:02 <dgarijo> ivan: the general point is to remind that the last call means that the design is done. Renaming is an editorial change.

Ivan Herman: the general point is to remind that the last call means that the design is done. Renaming is an editorial change.

15:31:18 <dgarijo> ... I don't see any problem in this particular case.

... I don't see any problem in this particular case.

15:31:40 <dgarijo> ... if this change came when we were in CR it would be more problematic.

... if this change came when we were in CR it would be more problematic.

15:31:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:31:49 <tlebo> ivan: changing property name is an editorial change. sees no problem with this. Will need to be more cautious as we go further. naame change in CR is impossible b/c it breaks implementations.

Ivan Herman: changing property name is an editorial change. sees no problem with this. Will need to be more cautious as we go further. name change in CR is impossible b/c it breaks implementations. [ Scribe Assist by Timothy Lebo ]

15:32:04 <ivan> s/naame/name/
15:32:24 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Tracking_Public_Comments

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Tracking_Public_Comments

15:32:53 <dgarijo> pgroth: the idea behind this wiki page is that we will create a new issue for each comment we receive, to keep good track of them.

Paul Groth: the idea behind this wiki page is that we will create a new issue for each comment we receive, to keep good track of them.

15:33:22 <dgarijo> ... add the issues in the wikipage as well. Is that good enough?

... add the issues in the wikipage as well. Is that good enough?

15:34:21 <dgarijo> ivan: that will work. Each group decides how to handle this themselves: raise a separate product to deal with comments, to mantain a single table in the wiki, etc.

Ivan Herman: that will work. Each group decides how to handle this themselves: raise a separate product to deal with comments, to mantain a single table in the wiki, etc.

15:34:37 <tlebo> having a new product seems to make sense, the "dm/o/paq" distinctions are less important now.

Timothy Lebo: having a new product seems to make sense, the "dm/o/paq" distinctions are less important now.

15:34:58 <tlebo> Including a link to their email approving our response is a good idea.

Timothy Lebo: Including a link to their email approving our response is a good idea.

15:35:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:14 <dgarijo> pgroth: a new product is fine, but having a last call product for each deliverable would make a busy tracker.

Paul Groth: a new product is fine, but having a last call product for each deliverable would make a busy tracker.

15:35:25 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:35:29 <dgarijo> ivan: i don't have a strong opinion, but what you say is right,.

Ivan Herman: i don't have a strong opinion, but what you say is right,.

15:35:36 <stain> other trackers have 'versions' for that particular problem

Stian Soiland-Reyes: other trackers have 'versions' for that particular problem

15:36:13 <dgarijo> ivan: one more thing: If I look at the wiki page right now I still have to go to each individual issue to see if they are closed or not.

Ivan Herman: one more thing: If I look at the wiki page right now I still have to go to each individual issue to see if they are closed or not.

15:36:39 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:36:46 <dgarijo> ... add for each entry whether the issue is closed in the wiki page.

... add for each entry whether the issue is closed in the wiki page.

15:36:59 <stain> I think it should be managable

Stian Soiland-Reyes: I think it should be managable

15:37:15 <dgarijo> I agree with Stian.

I agree with Stian.

15:37:20 <jun> whatever works for you, Paul. Fine with either way

Jun Zhao: whatever works for you, Paul. Fine with either way

15:37:31 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

15:37:34 <dgarijo> not to create a product for each deliverable, it's too much IMO.

not to create a product for each deliverable, it's too much IMO.

15:37:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: AOB?

Paul Groth: AOB?

15:37:56 <tlebo> bye!

Timothy Lebo: bye!

15:37:57 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

15:37:59 <Zakim> -smiles

Zakim IRC Bot: -smiles

15:38:00 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

15:38:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

15:38:01 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

15:38:02 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

15:38:03 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

15:38:03 <Zakim> -stain

Zakim IRC Bot: -stain

15:38:04 <Zakim> -??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P17

15:38:07 <Zakim> -TomDN

Zakim IRC Bot: -TomDN

15:38:08 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

15:38:16 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

15:38:21 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.818.731.aabb

15:38:22 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

15:38:22 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, +329331aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, jun, +1.818.731.aabb, TomDN, +1.315.330.aadd, SamCoppens, tlebo, Ivan, +44.131.467.aaee, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, stain, smiles?,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were pgroth, +329331aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, jun, +1.818.731.aabb, TomDN, +1.315.330.aadd, SamCoppens, tlebo, Ivan, +44.131.467.aaee, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, stain, smiles?,

15:38:22 <Zakim> ... dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: ... dgarijo

15:38:30 <pgroth> rrsagent, set lots public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set lots public

15:38:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set lots public', pgroth.  Try /msg RRSAgent help

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I'm logging. I don't understand 'set lots public', pgroth. Try /msg RRSAgent help

15:38:41 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

15:38:47 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

15:38:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html pgroth

15:38:54 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon

15:38:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

15:38:54 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is

15:39:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

15:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html trackbot

15:39:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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