14:49:28 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #prov
14:49:28 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-irc
14:49:30 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:49:30 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #prov
14:49:32 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 
14:49:32 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
14:49:33 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:49:33 <trackbot> Date: 02 August 2012
14:49:36 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV
14:49:36 <Zakim> ok, pgroth; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 11 minutes
14:49:52 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.08.02
14:50:30 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
14:50:44 <pgroth> Scribe: Daniel Garijo
14:50:50 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public
14:50:56 <pgroth> Regrets: Luc Moreau
14:57:17 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started
14:57:24 <Zakim> +??P2
14:57:31 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P2 is me
14:57:31 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
14:58:13 <TomDN> TomDN has joined #prov
14:58:21 <Curt> Curt has joined #prov
14:59:09 <smiles> smiles has joined #prov
14:59:19 <Zakim> +??P8
14:59:56 <hook> hook has joined #prov
14:59:58 <jun> jun has joined #prov
15:00:07 <Zakim> +??P10
15:00:13 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has joined #prov
15:00:18 <Zakim> + +329331aaaa
15:00:18 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes
15:00:19 <tlebo> tlebo has joined #prov
15:00:24 <jun> zakim, ??p10 is me
15:00:24 <Zakim> +jun; got it
15:00:34 <Zakim> + +1.818.731.aabb
15:00:38 <TomDN> Zakim, +329 is me
15:00:38 <Zakim> +TomDN; got it
15:00:42 <Zakim> + +44.789.470.aacc
15:00:47 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aadd
15:00:50 <TomDN> Zakim, SamCoppens is with TomDN
15:00:50 <Zakim> +SamCoppens; got it
15:00:53 <tlebo> zakim, I am aadd
15:00:53 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it
15:01:04 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:01:14 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:01:14 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:01:15 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:01:33 <Zakim> +??P17
15:01:35 <Zakim> +tlebo
15:01:35 <TomDN> Zakim, mute me
15:01:35 <Zakim> TomDN should now be muted
15:01:38 <zednik> zednik has joined #prov
15:01:49 <tlebo> I'll scribe
15:01:55 <pgroth> Topic: Admin
15:02:01 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-07-26
15:02:01 <tlebo> scribe: tlebo
15:02:10 <pgroth> Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon
15:02:17 <smiles> +1
15:02:18 <TomDN> +1
15:02:18 <Curt> +1
15:02:19 <zednik> +1
15:02:19 <tlebo> proposal: accept minutes
15:02:26 <jun> +1
15:02:27 <hook> +1
15:02:39 <SamCoppens> +1
15:02:41 <tlebo> +1
15:02:45 <stain> +1
15:02:53 <pgroth> accepted: Minutes of the July 26, 2012 Telecon
15:03:19 <tlebo> topic: action items
15:03:38 <tlebo> paul: is still working on his action
15:03:50 <tlebo> ... Ivan is joining the WG as W3C POC
15:04:08 <tlebo> ivan: hi! 
15:04:24 <tlebo> ... sandro will be doing a bit in Aug, but Ivan will be around and back from vacation
15:04:24 <jcheney> jcheney has joined #prov
15:04:36 <tlebo> ... working through all of our documents now.
15:04:52 <Zakim> + +44.131.467.aaee
15:05:00 <tlebo> paul: please sign up for scribes
15:05:03 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:05:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P8, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, +44.789.470.aacc, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, +44.131.467.aaee
15:05:04 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens
15:05:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro
15:05:09 <pgroth> q?
15:05:10 <tlebo> ... aob?
15:05:19 <satya> satya has joined #prov
15:05:29 <tlebo> ivan: get unknowns identified
15:05:42 <jcheney> zakim, aaee is me
15:05:42 <tlebo> paul: who is P8?
15:05:47 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
15:06:03 <smiles> or me
15:06:05 <jun> not me
15:06:14 <smiles> zakim, P8 is probably me
15:06:17 <stain> Zakim, +44.789.470.aacc is me
15:06:21 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo
15:06:23 <Zakim> sorry, smiles, I do not understand your question
15:06:24 <stain> he knew me last week!
15:06:25 <Zakim> +stain; got it
15:06:26 <smiles> zakim, ??P8 is probably me
15:06:30 <tlebo> 818 is san fran
15:06:31 <Zakim> +smiles?; got it
15:06:31 <pgroth>  Topic: PROV-Constraints
15:07:03 <dgarijo> dgarijo has joined #prov
15:07:10 <tlebo> jcheney: read reviews as they came in. They seem to identify things that we can fix easily.
15:07:12 <pgroth> james?
15:07:16 <tlebo> ... not sig technical changes.
15:07:16 <pgroth> i lost my connection..
15:07:35 <Zakim> +??P9
15:07:41 <Zakim> +??P22
15:07:43 <tlebo> q+ to ask what the constraints timeline is
15:07:44 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P9 is me
15:07:45 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
15:07:57 <tlebo> go ahead, James
15:08:02 <dgarijo> is there a scribe? I can scribe.
15:08:08 <tlebo> @dgarijo you take scribe
15:08:11 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:08:11 <tlebo> scribe: dgarijo 
15:08:13 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
15:08:13 <Zakim> On the phone I see smiles?, jun, TomDN (muted), Curt_Tilmes, +1.818.731.aabb, stain, Ivan, tlebo, ??P17, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, dgarijo, ??P22
15:08:15 <dgarijo> ok
15:08:16 <Zakim> TomDN has TomDN, SamCoppens
15:08:16 <Zakim> On IRC I see dgarijo, satya, jcheney, zednik, tlebo, SamCoppens, jun, hook, smiles, Curt, TomDN, Zakim, RRSAgent, pgroth, MacTed, ivan, stain, trackbot, sandro
15:08:28 <stain> I am almost finished today
15:08:29 <dgarijo> james: waiting for 1 outstanding review from stian
15:08:36 <stain> typing in my evil email..
15:08:37 <tlebo> q?
15:08:44 <ivan> zakim, ??P22 is pgroth 
15:08:44 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
15:09:10 <dgarijo> ... plan is review things early next week in order to be able to have a vote next meeting
15:09:19 <dgarijo> ... and just worry about minor stuff from there
15:09:26 <pgroth> q?
15:09:31 <tlebo> so, we're voting on this next Thus?
15:09:46 <dgarijo> tlebo: are we voting on this next thursday?
15:09:49 <dgarijo> pgroth: yes
15:10:07 <dgarijo> tlebo: ok, I'll look for responses next week.
15:10:19 <dgarijo> tlebo: I'll be looking for those
15:10:25 <pgroth> q?
15:10:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: in my review there were no blockers
15:10:34 <tlebo> @jcheney they're mini blockers :-)
15:10:42 <tlebo> q-
15:10:45 <stain> I think my review has a tiny blocker .. :-/
15:10:48 <stain> but editorial
15:10:48 <dgarijo> pgroth: Issue 458
15:10:49 <ivan> issue-458?
15:10:49 <trackbot> ISSUE-458 -- wasInfluencedBy is not irreflexive -- raised
15:10:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458
15:11:01 <dgarijo> ... is influence reflexive or not
15:11:05 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/458
15:11:24 <pgroth> yes
15:11:27 <tlebo> I was the biggest proponent of irreflexive, and I'm no longer protesting to removing it.
15:11:32 <pgroth> q?
15:11:38 <smiles> I agree with removing the constraint
15:11:40 <dgarijo> james: does anybody objects to removing that constraint?
15:11:40 <tlebo> (so it's all good)
15:11:45 <dgarijo> ... OK, closed
15:12:11 <tlebo> @dgarijo "accepted" is the keyword for a resolution
15:12:24 <dgarijo> @tlebo, thanks.
15:12:31 <pgroth> Agent(ex:Luc,[prov;type='prov:Person'])  Activity(ex:Luc)
15:12:46 <TomDN> +q
15:12:55 <TomDN> zakim, unmute me
15:12:55 <Zakim> TomDN should no longer be muted
15:13:01 <pgroth> q?
15:13:06 <dgarijo> pgroth: the other issue was agent being an activity as well. Should we allow that in the constraints?
15:13:25 <stain> would that imply also Activity(ex:Luc,[prov:type='prov:Person'])
15:13:44 <dgarijo> tom: I haven't followed the email about it, but agent can also be an entity.
15:14:04 <dgarijo> pgroth: if you assert that Luc is an entity, it can't be an activity.
15:14:14 <smiles> q+
15:14:24 <pgroth> ack TomDN 
15:14:35 <dgarijo> james: I'm agnostic. It won't break anything to allow people to say that.
15:14:35 <tlebo> from the hip, I think we shouldn't add this.
15:14:45 <stain> agent(ex:workflowEngine, [prov:type='prov:SoftwareAgent'])   activity(ex:workflowEngine)  would probably make more sense in some cases
15:15:04 <dgarijo> simon: I agree with what Tom says. If an agent is a person, then we can infer it's a person.
15:15:05 <pgroth> ack smiles 
15:15:32 <dgarijo> pgroth: that will imply that all persons are entities.
15:15:43 <TomDN> it could be an inference, and normalization would always produce agent(Luc, [prov:Person]) -> entity(Luc)
15:16:06 <stain> used(food, ex:Luc)  wasAssociatedWith(ex:cooking, ex:Luc)  wasGeneratedBy(ex:food, ex:cooking)
15:16:22 <dgarijo> pgroth: if we want it, then we could add that inference.
15:16:25 <pgroth> q?
15:16:48 <dgarijo> tlebo: surprised of the proposal. Is it an issue that went through the list
15:16:49 <dgarijo> ?
15:16:52 <stain> yes, should be a proper issue!
15:17:11 <jcheney> q+
15:17:36 <dgarijo> pgroth: we can discuss it on the list, but I was wondering if we could just drop it or discuss it a bit here.
15:17:41 <pgroth> ack jcheney 
15:17:41 <stain> can animals be activities? lifeforms?
15:17:43 <TomDN> machines shouldn't be activities either...
15:18:13 <satya> @TomDN, assuming that machines are "hardware"
15:18:48 <tlebo> why single out Person? Why are Organizations allowed to be Activities?
15:18:48 <stain> a human is in some sense just a system of biological activities working together
15:18:53 <dgarijo> jcheney: we should be removing things as much as possible. 
15:19:22 <Curt> There was a use case of something like a "working group" which is both an agent and an activity (I disagree with that)
15:19:25 <dgarijo> pgroth: even if we don't include something like that I don't know if we can add this after last call.
15:19:33 <dgarijo> pgroth: Ivan, can we do that.
15:19:44 <dgarijo> Ivan: that would be a technical change.
15:19:54 <stain> Curt: but then this all falls back to "are there *any* agents that can be activities?"
15:20:01 <dgarijo> ... but constraints is not in last call.
15:20:03 <stain> @Curt
15:21:12 <dgarijo> pgroth: so I think james is right. This is going to open up a lot of discussion and given our time line, we should not add it yet.
15:21:13 <pgroth> q?
15:21:16 <Curt> +1 pgroth
15:21:23 <smiles> +1
15:21:24 <tlebo> @pgroth that's a good response: add the explicit type Entity
15:21:28 <stain> I think it would not cause any problems to not say something rather than to say something. It does not affect anything else in the constraints if the prov:Person is an activity or not, and PROV-Constraints is not attempting to model the world, just how processes and things are modelled in a sane way
15:21:30 <TomDN> @pgroth: +1, could we add that as a remark?
15:21:48 <dgarijo> ... if anybody wants to assert that persons are not activities, then they can assert it.
15:22:00 <dgarijo> +1 to pgroth.
15:22:20 <dgarijo> james: I will review questions. I don't have anything more specific
15:22:28 <pgroth> Topic: Prox-xml
15:23:10 <Curt> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Aon9DSj-WtGqdHJocGtPRGp5MTItbEhLX09sN1NxVVE#gid=0
15:23:22 <dgarijo> stephan: We are going to try to have xml examples by august 15th.
15:23:35 <dgarijo> ... hopefully next week.
15:23:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: any additional help?
15:24:04 <dgarijo> stephan: I'll be able to say next week, when I've taken a stab at it
15:24:17 <pgroth> q?
15:24:31 <Curt> (anyone who wants the doc, just request it through google docs and stephan will approve)
15:24:35 <pgroth> Topic: PROV-DC
15:24:41 <pgroth> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/6b795ed2e6c9/dc-note/Overview.html
15:24:45 <ivan> (Curt, I did it)
15:25:05 <tlebo> dgarijo: releaed it last week into hg
15:25:20 <tlebo> ... asking those to reviewed last time to see if they agree to the changes.
15:25:29 <tlebo> .. please raise issues
15:25:33 <tlebo> ... document is not long.
15:25:49 <tlebo> pgroth: reviewers?
15:25:53 <SamCoppens> I will
15:25:54 <smiles> I will review it
15:25:57 <TomDN> I started on a review
15:26:04 <dgarijo> thanks!!
15:26:14 <ivan> I will also look at it
15:26:15 <ivan> q+
15:26:22 <pgroth> ack ivan
15:26:56 <tlebo> ivan: turtle file to put into /ns?
15:27:26 <tlebo> dgarijo: the turtle files is in hg, will send the link.
15:27:38 <tlebo> pgroth: add link to turtle file?
15:28:08 <tlebo> ivan: where to put final version of turtle file?
15:29:00 <dgarijo> daniel: I will add the links to the turtel files of each example in the repository. They are there but not linked in the document.
15:29:01 <tlebo> pgroth: the WG also needs to make the full concat for prov.owl with prov-o in it.
15:29:10 <pgroth> q?
15:29:16 <tlebo> @pgroth me too :-)
15:29:26 <pgroth> Topic: Handling Comments
15:29:40 <dgarijo> pgroth: we discussed last week how to handle public comments
15:30:03 <dgarijo> pgroth: there was a question about what is a technical comment
15:30:24 <dgarijo> ... ivan and sandro talked to thomas and have an update.
15:31:02 <dgarijo> ivan: the general point is to remind that the last call means that the design is done. Renaming is an editorial change.
15:31:18 <dgarijo> ... I don't see any problem in this particular case.
15:31:40 <dgarijo> ... if this change came when we were in CR it would be more problematic.
15:31:41 <pgroth> q?
15:31:49 <tlebo> ivan: changing property name is an editorial change. sees no problem with this. Will need to be more cautious as we go further. naame change in CR is impossible b/c it breaks implementations.
15:32:04 <ivan> s/naame/name/
15:32:24 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Tracking_Public_Comments
15:32:53 <dgarijo> pgroth: the idea behind this wiki page is that we will create a new issue for each comment we receive, to keep good track of them.
15:33:22 <dgarijo> ... add the issues in the wikipage as well. Is that good enough? 
15:34:21 <dgarijo> ivan: that will work. Each group decides how to handle this themselves: raise a separate product to deal with comments, to mantain a single table in the wiki, etc.
15:34:37 <tlebo> having a new product seems to make sense, the "dm/o/paq" distinctions are less important now. 
15:34:58 <tlebo> Including a link to their email approving our response is a good idea.
15:35:06 <pgroth> q?
15:35:14 <dgarijo> pgroth: a new product is fine, but having a last call product for each deliverable would make a busy tracker.
15:35:25 <pgroth> q?
15:35:29 <dgarijo> ivan: i don't have a strong opinion, but what you say is right,.
15:35:36 <stain> other trackers have 'versions' for that particular problem
15:36:13 <dgarijo> ivan: one more thing: If I look at the wiki page right now I still have to go to each individual issue to see if they are closed or not.
15:36:39 <pgroth> q?
15:36:46 <dgarijo> ... add for each entry whether the issue is closed in the wiki page.
15:36:59 <stain> I think it should be managable
15:37:15 <dgarijo> I agree with Stian. 
15:37:20 <jun> whatever works for you, Paul. Fine with either way
15:37:31 <pgroth> q?
15:37:34 <dgarijo> not to create a product for each deliverable, it's too much IMO.
15:37:41 <dgarijo> pgroth: AOB?
15:37:56 <tlebo> bye!
15:37:57 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo
15:37:59 <Zakim> -smiles?
15:38:00 <SamCoppens> SamCoppens has left #prov
15:38:00 <Zakim> -tlebo
15:38:00 <Zakim> -dgarijo
15:38:01 <Zakim> -jun
15:38:02 <Zakim> -pgroth
15:38:03 <Zakim> -jcheney
15:38:03 <Zakim> -stain
15:38:04 <Zakim> -??P17
15:38:07 <Zakim> -TomDN
15:38:08 <Zakim> -Ivan
15:38:09 <ivan> ivan has left #prov
15:38:16 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes
15:38:21 <Zakim> - +1.818.731.aabb
15:38:22 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended
15:38:22 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, +329331aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, jun, +1.818.731.aabb, TomDN, +1.315.330.aadd, SamCoppens, tlebo, Ivan, +44.131.467.aaee, jcheney, Satya_Sahoo, stain, smiles?,
15:38:22 <Zakim> ... dgarijo
15:38:30 <pgroth> rrsagent, set lots public
15:38:30 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'set lots public', pgroth.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
15:38:41 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
15:38:47 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:38:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html pgroth
15:38:54 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
15:38:54 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
15:38:54 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
15:39:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
15:39:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/08/02-prov-minutes.html trackbot
15:39:03 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
15:39:03 <RRSAgent> I see no action items