None.
The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.
Brief overview of working group plan
We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.
Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force
The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.
Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force
Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.
Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force
A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.
Discuss Plans for Model Task Force
Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.
We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.
14:53:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-irc ←
14:53:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world ←
14:53:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be ←
14:53:43 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot ←
14:53:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:53:44 <trackbot> Date: 14 July 2011
14:54:00 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney
(Scribe set to James Cheney)
14:54:05 <pgroth> scribe: Paul Groth
(Scribe set to Paul Groth)
14:54:20 <pgroth> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.07.14
14:56:21 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
Zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:56:21 <Zakim> sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, pgroth, I don't know what conference this is ←
14:56:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot ←
14:56:36 <ericstephan> I haven't called in yet
Eric Stephan: I haven't called in yet ←
14:57:03 <pgroth> zakim, this will be #prov
zakim, this will be #prov ←
14:57:03 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth ←
14:57:19 <pgroth> zakim, this will be Provenance Working Group Teleconference
zakim, this will be Provenance Working Group Teleconference ←
14:57:19 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth ←
14:57:40 <Luc> zakim, who is here?
Luc Moreau: zakim, who is here? ←
14:57:42 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be Provenance
Zakim, this will be Provenance ←
14:57:45 <Zakim> sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, Luc, I don't know what conference this is ←
14:57:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, trackbot ←
14:57:48 <ericstephan> I am on the call now (muted)
Eric Stephan: I am on the call now (muted) ←
14:57:53 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth
Zakim IRC Bot: I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, pgroth ←
14:58:22 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV
Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV ←
14:58:22 <Zakim> ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started ←
14:58:22 <pgroth> chair: Paul Groth
14:58:35 <Zakim> +??P21
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P21 ←
14:58:37 <Zakim> +??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25 ←
14:58:44 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public
Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public ←
14:58:46 <pgroth> scribe: jcheney
(Scribe set to James Cheney)
14:58:47 <GK> zakim, ??P21 is me
Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P21 is me ←
14:58:47 <Zakim> +GK; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it ←
14:59:00 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?
Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call? ←
14:59:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P7, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, ??P25 ←
14:59:03 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P25 is me
Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P25 is me ←
14:59:04 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it ←
14:59:07 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P7 is me
Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P7 is me ←
14:59:08 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it ←
14:59:16 <ericstephan> I am 509.554
Eric Stephan: I am 509.554 ←
14:59:30 <Zakim> +tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo ←
14:59:49 <Zakim> +Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh ←
15:00:30 <tlebo> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Timothy Lebo: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
15:00:30 <pgroth> Regrets: Stephan Zednik
15:01:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh ←
15:01:08 <Zakim> +olaf
Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf ←
15:01:16 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
15:01:20 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:01:29 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:01:34 <Zakim> +??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10 ←
15:01:40 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, OpenLink_Software, ??P10 ←
15:01:47 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it ←
15:01:47 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me ←
15:01:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see StephenCresswell, smiles, MacTed, tlebo, olaf, Yogesh, khalidbelhajjame, Luc, Paolo, ericstephan, Zakim, RRSAgent, stain, pgroth, GK, GK1, edsu, ericP, sandro, ←
15:02:02 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
15:02:04 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted ←
15:02:24 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:02:44 <Zakim> +??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P22 ←
15:02:44 <jorn> zakim, who is on the call?
Jörn Hees: zakim, who is on the call? ←
15:02:48 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
15:02:52 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
15:03:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, ??P14, +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed (muted), ??P10, ??P22, ??P34 ←
15:03:43 <jcheney> Zakim, ??P34 is me
Zakim, ??P34 is me ←
15:04:00 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:04:01 <Zakim> +SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens ←
15:04:05 <Zakim> +??P42
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42 ←
15:04:17 <Zakim> +Reza
Zakim IRC Bot: +Reza ←
15:04:23 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it ←
15:04:31 <Zakim> + +1.512.524.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.512.524.aabb ←
<jcheney> TOPIC: Admin
Summary: The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: The minutes for the F2F are still in progress. Many action items agreed at the F2F are still incomplete; some are subject of mailing list discussion; some are waiting on W3C to set up a Mercurial repository.
15:04:31 <jcheney> pgroth: still working on minutes for F2F
Paul Groth: still working on minutes for F2F ←
15:04:52 <jcheney> pgroth: actions from F2F due today
Paul Groth: actions from F2F due today ←
15:05:09 <ericstephan> %22
Eric Stephan: %22 ←
15:05:16 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aacc ←
15:05:16 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open ←
15:05:24 <Zakim> +??P35
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P35 ←
15:05:30 <Zakim> +??P44
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P44 ←
15:05:53 <jcheney> eric: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done
Eric Stephan: action "Create a plan to deliver a connection report. Plan will include a timetable, a list of connections, and individuals who will deliver to the connection." is done ←
15:06:06 <jcheney> eric: still need contributions
Eric Stephan: still need contributions ←
15:06:17 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P35 is me
Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P35 is me ←
15:06:17 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it ←
15:06:25 <jcheney> pgroth: stephan is still working on actions
Paul Groth: stephan is still working on actions ←
15:06:38 <jcheney> pgroth: paulo is not here
Paul Groth: paulo is not here ←
15:06:49 <jcheney> pgroth: simon's action?
Paul Groth: simon's action? ←
15:06:52 <jcheney> smiles: not done
Simon Miles: not done ←
15:06:54 <ericstephan> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
Eric Stephan: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report ←
15:07:12 <jcheney> smiles: action-21 also not done
Simon Miles: ACTION-21 also not done ←
15:07:24 <jcheney> pgroth: james mccusker action-22 - not here
Paul Groth: james mccusker ACTION-22 - not here ←
15:07:31 <Zakim> -jcheney
Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney ←
15:07:39 <jcheney> smiles: action 24 not done
Simon Miles: ACTION-24 not done ←
15:07:57 <Zakim> +??P34
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34 ←
15:08:03 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 assigned to paul not done
Paul Groth: ACTION-28 assigned to paul not done ←
15:08:03 <jorn> zakim, ??p34 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p34 is me ←
15:08:03 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:08:16 <jcheney> pgroth: action-26 to satya
Paul Groth: ACTION-26 to satya ←
15:08:27 <jcheney> satya: not done
Satya Sahoo: not done ←
15:08:50 <jcheney> khalid: action-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of
Khalid Belhajjame: ACTION-27 has sent email to discuss ivp of ←
15:09:13 <jcheney> pgroth: action-28 to james myers - not here
Paul Groth: ACTION-28 to james myers - not here ←
15:09:15 <Zakim> +Yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: +Yolanda ←
15:09:33 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:09:33 <jcheney> pgroth: graham action-30 to move PAQ document to site
Paul Groth: graham ACTION-30 to move PAQ document to site ←
15:09:38 <jcheney> graham: working on it
Graham Klyne: working on it ←
15:09:51 <jcheney> pgroth: simon action-31 to enact PAQ plan
Paul Groth: simon ACTION-31 to enact PAQ plan ←
15:09:54 <jcheney> smiles: done
Simon Miles: done ←
15:10:17 <jcheney> pgroth: action-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style
Paul Groth: ACTION-32 to paolo to update concepts + updates into w3c style ←
15:10:33 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:10:35 <jcheney> paolo: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish
Paolo Missier: done, depends partly on graham's action for place to publish ←
15:10:46 <jcheney> pgroth: many actions still open
Paul Groth: many actions still open ←
15:11:07 <jcheney> pgroth: scribes needed
Paul Groth: scribes needed ←
15:11:33 <Zakim> +??P51
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P51 ←
15:11:50 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:11:57 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:11:57 <Luc> q-
Luc Moreau: q- ←
15:12:02 <jcheney> luc: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month
Luc Moreau: once minutes available please contribute & work on actions by end of month ←
15:12:05 <jcheney> (??)
(??) ←
15:12:23 <jcheney> TOPIC: Brief overview of working group plan
Summary: We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: We plan to deliver two working drafts by the end of September: the conceptual model and the OWL ontology. We also want to deliver a draft of the provenance access document. The strategy is to write drafts against we can raise and resolve issues.
15:12:50 <jcheney> pgroth: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology
Paul Groth: expected to deliver 2 working drafts: conceptual model & ontology ←
15:12:58 <jcheney> pgroth: also want to deliver access document
Paul Groth: also want to deliver access document ←
15:13:10 <jcheney> pgroth: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues
Paul Groth: strategy: produce drafts, then raise issues ←
15:13:58 <GK> I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against
Graham Klyne: I think it will be helpful to proceed with working drafts to work/discuss against ←
15:14:00 <jcheney> pgroth: reports from connection & implementation TFs
Paul Groth: reports from connection & implementation TFs ←
15:14:30 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Connection Task Force
Summary: The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: The connection task force agreed at the F2F to create an informal report to focus and identify communities where provenance will have impact. The report is drafted and contributions are welcome. WG members may be recruited to provide contacts to specific communities. Commercial compliance scenarios were mentioned as one area where some work should be done.
15:15:10 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←
15:15:22 <jcheney> eric: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities
Eric Stephan: at F2F tasked to create informal report to provide focus & identify impact in conecting provenance to other communities ←
15:15:44 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Connection_Task_Force_Informal_Report ←
15:15:52 <jcheney> eric: yolanda made group priority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?)
Eric Stephan: yolanda made group priority suggestions, which has been circulated on IRC (email?) ←
15:16:15 <jcheney> eric: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors
Eric Stephan: connection timeline proposed, and some WG members may be proposed as contributors ←
15:17:01 <jcheney> eric: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september
Eric Stephan: edits welcome, plan to publish draft by end of august for review by end of september ←
15:17:09 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:17:30 <jcheney> smiles: what does it mean to be a "source"?
Simon Miles: what does it mean to be a "source"? ←
15:18:38 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:18:59 <jcheney> eric: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs
Eric Stephan: proposed outline for collecting use cases, identifying needs ←
15:19:12 <GK> q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
Graham Klyne: q+ to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document ←
15:19:23 <Zakim> +??P41
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P41 ←
15:19:32 <Zakim> -??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P14 ←
15:19:43 <Paolo> zakim, ??P41 is me
Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P41 is me ←
15:19:43 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it ←
15:19:43 <jcheney> graham: no reference to commercial compliance
Graham Klyne: no reference to commercial compliance ←
15:20:09 <StephenCresswell> That was me
Stephen Cresswell: That was me ←
15:20:15 <jcheney> graham: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication
Graham Klyne: has come up from oracle, e-government/legislative information publication ←
15:20:17 <rgolden> q+
Ryan Golden: q+ ←
15:20:29 <pgroth> ack GK
Paul Groth: ack GK ←
15:20:29 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document
Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that I don't see any reference to commercial compliance requirements in the document ←
15:20:34 <pgroth> ack rgolden
Paul Groth: ack rgolden ←
15:20:52 <jcheney> ryan: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages
Ryan Golden: we have been talking about that on mailing list, will take a look at connection TF pages ←
15:21:16 <ericstephan> q+
Eric Stephan: q+ ←
15:21:51 <jcheney> yolanda: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap
Yolanda Gil: remember that compliance was discussed in incubator group and covered in report and roadmap ←
15:22:10 <pgroth> ack ericstephan
Paul Groth: ack ericstephan ←
15:22:40 <jcheney> eric: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report
Eric Stephan: want to make sure that we capture previous work including XG report ←
15:23:10 <jcheney> yolanda: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind
Yolanda Gil: could just point to report for some of this, no other sources come to mind ←
15:23:16 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:23:30 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:23:39 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me ←
15:23:39 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:23:46 <jcheney> yolanda: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario
Yolanda Gil: compliance also captured in third, business contract scenario ←
15:24:08 <Zakim> +SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens ←
15:24:26 <jcheney> yolanda: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant
Yolanda Gil: if there are groups to articulate compliance then it is relevant ←
15:24:44 <ericstephan> thank you Yolanda!
Eric Stephan: thank you Yolanda! ←
15:25:21 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Implementation Task Force
Summary: Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: Neither Lena nor Steven was able to connect to report at this point. They will report on progress towards a larger survey of potential users/implementers next week.
15:25:24 <pgroth> lena?
Paul Groth: lena? ←
15:25:55 <Lena> I am having sound problems
Helena Deus: I am having sound problems ←
15:26:09 <jcheney> pgroth: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available
Paul Groth: lena seems to be unavailable, steven not available ←
15:26:38 <jcheney> pgroth: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week.
Paul Groth: Impl TF needs help identifying audience for larger survey, should report next week. ←
15:26:48 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Provenance Access and Query Task Force
Summary: A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: A draft of the Access document based on Graham's strawman is in progress. It will be available for comment as soon as W3C creates a mercurial repository for it. Satya, Khalid, Olaf, Tim, Graham, Ted, Daniel, Ryan, Simon, Yogesh and Sam expressed interest in contributing.
15:27:01 <jcheney> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-prov-wg/2011Jul/0064.html ←
15:27:07 <Zakim> +Lena
Zakim IRC Bot: +Lena ←
15:27:40 <jcheney> smiles: working on uploading/revising access draft
Simon Miles: working on uploading/revising access draft ←
15:27:51 <jcheney> smiles: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F
Simon Miles: will be driven by alternative proposals discussed at F2F ←
15:28:22 <jcheney> smiles: issues to be raised against draft and discussed
Simon Miles: issues to be raised against draft and discussed ←
15:28:27 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
15:28:44 <jcheney> khalid: what date will document be available for comment
Khalid Belhajjame: what date will document be available for comment ←
15:28:47 <Yogesh> +q
Yogesh Simmhan: +q ←
15:29:19 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:29:30 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%)
Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (59%), khalidbelhajjame (15%), Sandro (5%), Lena (51%) ←
15:29:32 <GK> It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope)
Graham Klyne: It's currently online at http://imageweb.zoo.ox.ac.uk/pub/2011/provenance/ReSpec/provenance-access.html, but due to be moved to w3C site real soon now (we hope) ←
15:29:34 <jcheney> smiles: depends on when W3C version control is set up
Simon Miles: depends on when W3C version control is set up ←
15:29:42 <pgroth> ack khalidbelhajjame
Paul Groth: ack khalidbelhajjame ←
15:29:46 <pgroth> ack Yogesh
Paul Groth: ack Yogesh ←
15:29:46 <khalidbelhajjame> @graham, thanks
Khalid Belhajjame: @graham, thanks ←
15:30:08 <jcheney> yogesh: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line)
Yogesh Simmhan: action to include scenario, commens on concrete proposal (? noisy line) ←
15:30:09 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:30:23 <jorn> zakim, who is talking?
Jörn Hees: zakim, who is talking? ←
15:30:29 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy? ←
15:30:34 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%)
Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (55%), Sandro (31%), Lena (8%) ←
15:30:42 <MacTed> Zakim, mute sandro
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute sandro ←
15:30:42 <Zakim> Sandro should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Sandro should now be muted ←
15:30:44 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%)
Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Reza (46%), pgroth (64%), Sandro (24%), Lena (46%) ←
15:30:45 <Yogesh> www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example
Yogesh Simmhan: www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceAccessScenario#Concrete_Example ←
15:30:54 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute sandro
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute sandro ←
15:30:54 <Zakim> Sandro should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Sandro should no longer be muted ←
15:30:59 <jorn> zakim, please mute lena
Jörn Hees: zakim, please mute lena ←
15:30:59 <Zakim> Lena should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Lena should now be muted ←
15:31:00 <jcheney> pgroth: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september
Paul Groth: wanted to identify possible contributors to task force for document due in september ←
15:31:02 <Satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:31:03 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
15:31:06 <olaf> +1
Olaf Hartig: +1 ←
15:31:09 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:31:14 <jcheney> pgroth: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1
Paul Groth: Anyone interested in contributing please say +1 ←
15:31:32 <GK> +1 (kinda by default, I think)
Graham Klyne: +1 (kinda by default, I think) ←
15:31:36 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:31:39 <dgarijo> +1
Daniel Garijo: +1 ←
15:31:41 <rgolden> +1
Ryan Golden: +1 ←
15:31:44 <dcorsar> +1
David Corsar: +1 ←
15:31:48 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:31:50 <Yogesh> +1
Yogesh Simmhan: +1 ←
15:31:52 <jcheney> pgroth: (meaning the access document)
Paul Groth: (meaning the access document) ←
15:31:57 <Zakim> -??P51
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P51 ←
15:32:02 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:32:28 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force
Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#2._Provenance_Access_and_Query_Task_Force ←
15:32:30 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding)
Paul Groth: Contributors please put names in task force / access document wiki page so that we know who is signed up (nonbinding) ←
15:32:35 <jorn> zakim, who is noisy?
Jörn Hees: zakim, who is noisy? ←
15:32:46 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:32:47 <Zakim> jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%)
Zakim IRC Bot: jorn, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: pgroth (29%), Sandro (24%) ←
15:32:56 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discuss Plans for Model Task Force
Summary: Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: Paolo has editied the notes from the F2F meeting to produce a W3C-style draft, rephrasing without altering. This will be available for comment/editing once the Mergurial repository is available. Graham, Satya, Khalid, Simon, James, Ted, Sam, Ryan, David volunteered to contribute or comment on this draft. An OWL ontology will be drafted by Satya and others in the repository also when available. Paolo, Khalid, Jim McCusker, Ted, Daniel, and James volunteered to contribute or comment on the ontology.
15:33:05 <Zakim> -Reza
Zakim IRC Bot: -Reza ←
15:33:45 <jcheney> paolo: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document
Paolo Missier: has edited the F2F meeting wiki page to produce a W3C style document ←
15:33:55 <jcheney> paolo: tried to rephrase without altering semantics
Paolo Missier: tried to rephrase without altering semantics ←
15:34:01 <jcheney> paolo: baseline for proper document
Paolo Missier: baseline for proper document ←
15:34:02 <Zakim> +??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P0 ←
15:34:03 <Satya> @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC?
Satya Sahoo: @Paolo: can you please paste the link to this W3C note in IRC? ←
15:34:24 <jcheney> paolo: threads evolving on list
Paolo Missier: threads evolving on list ←
15:34:44 <jcheney> paolo: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model
Paolo Missier: plan for Luc and Paolo to complete version for discussion with natural language for conceptual model ←
15:35:09 <jcheney> luc: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready.
Luc Moreau: requested Mercurial repository from W3C on monday, still not ready. ←
15:35:36 <jcheney> luc: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition. Will discuss with paolo next week
Luc Moreau: thoughts about structure of document: need illustration, exposition. Will discuss with paolo next week ←
15:35:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:35:45 <Satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:36:00 <jcheney> satya: where is the new consolidated document?
Satya Sahoo: where is the new consolidated document? ←
15:36:27 <jcheney> paolo: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox
Paolo Missier: We do not have a W3C place for it yet, currently parked on dropbox ←
15:36:49 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:36:53 <Satya> q-
Satya Sahoo: q- ←
15:36:53 <jcheney> paolo: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it
Paolo Missier: Probably should wait until we have a repository to work on it ←
15:37:01 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:37:03 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:37:16 <jcheney> luc: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository
Luc Moreau: Suggest we wait for mercurial repository ←
15:37:42 <jcheney> luc: Instructions will be posted soon
Luc Moreau: Instructions will be posted soon ←
15:38:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 for Paolo's plan
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 for Paolo's plan ←
15:38:46 <jcheney> pgroth: sandro, why is repository taking so long?
Paul Groth: sandro, why is repository taking so long? ←
15:38:50 <jcheney> sandro: don't know
Sandro Hawke: don't know ←
15:38:56 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:39:13 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:39:21 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me ←
15:39:21 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:39:45 <GK> @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so
Graham Klyne: @luc: creating the repo's easy enough, but setting up access control less so ←
15:39:46 <Satya> +1
Satya Sahoo: +1 ←
15:39:47 <khalidbelhajjame> +1
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 ←
15:39:50 <smiles> +1
Simon Miles: +1 ←
15:39:51 <jcheney> pgroth: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1
Paul Groth: contributors to conceptual model document (september time frame) please say +1 ←
15:39:53 <jcheney> +1
+1 ←
15:39:54 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:39:57 <SamCoppens> +1
Sam Coppens: +1 ←
15:40:00 <rgolden> +1 (me or reza)
Ryan Golden: +1 (me or reza) ←
15:40:08 <dcorsar> +1
David Corsar: +1 ←
15:40:17 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:40:20 <GK> +1 (to review, comment, propose changes)
Graham Klyne: +1 (to review, comment, propose changes) ←
15:40:50 <jcheney> pgroth: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya
Paul Groth: OWL ontology representing conceptual model, led by Satya ←
15:41:03 <jcheney> satya: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model
Satya Sahoo: still planning, need to get together with others, depends on conceptual model ←
15:41:22 <jcheney> satya: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners
Satya Sahoo: try to use minimal OWL to keep things simple and avoid dependence on reasoners ←
15:41:52 <jcheney> satya: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points
Satya Sahoo: simon raised points on model vs representation; initial OWL ontology may help clarify these points ←
15:41:59 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:42:22 <jcheney> graham: assume that ontology will be version controlled?
Graham Klyne: assume that ontology will be version controlled? ←
15:43:03 <tlebo> q+
Timothy Lebo: q+ ←
15:43:15 <jcheney> luc: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas
Luc Moreau: yes, will all be in one repository with subdirectories for documents/schemas ←
15:43:19 <pgroth> ack tlebo
Paul Groth: ack tlebo ←
15:43:29 <tlebo> Jim McCusker is speaking
Timothy Lebo: Jim McCusker is speaking ←
15:43:45 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible
James McCusker: cost of versioning an OWL file is negligible ←
15:44:14 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:44:23 <Paolo> +1
Paolo Missier: +1 ←
15:44:24 <khalidbelhajjame> +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute)
Khalid Belhajjame: +1 (not really an expert in OWL, but would like to contribute) ←
15:44:31 <tlebo> +1
Timothy Lebo: +1 ←
15:44:32 <MacTed> +1
Ted Thibodeau: +1 ←
15:44:33 <dgarijo> +1 to help with the owl file
Daniel Garijo: +1 to help with the owl file ←
15:44:39 <tlebo> +1 for Jim McCusker
Timothy Lebo: +1 for Jim McCusker ←
15:44:42 <jcheney> pgroth: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september)
Paul Groth: Contributors to OWL ontology, please say +1 (for september) ←
15:44:49 <JimMcCusker> +1
James McCusker: +1 ←
15:45:02 <jcheney> +1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help)
+1 (but don't know much about OWL, so questionable how much I can help) ←
15:45:11 <tlebo> -= my vote for Jim McCusker
Timothy Lebo: -= my vote for Jim McCusker ←
15:45:18 <jcheney> TOPIC: Discussion of Agent
Summary: We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.
<jcheney> SUMMARY: We did not reach consensus on Agent at the F2F, and since then there has been email discussion. Ryan proposed merging Agent with Process Execution (i.e. Software Agent), while introducing a new concept for "person or organization". The need for an explicit Agent concept was debated, as was the issue of whether to import one from an existing ontology or allow reuse of any suitable Agent-like concept. The issue will be discussed on the mailing list through examples.
15:45:29 <jcheney> pgroth: Did not reach consensus at F2F
Paul Groth: Did not reach consensus at F2F ←
15:45:33 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force
Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/ProvenanceTaskForces#1._Model_Task_Force ←
15:45:41 <jcheney> pgroth: More discission of agent has been on mailing list
Paul Groth: More discission of agent has been on mailing list ←
15:45:58 <Paolo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent
Paolo Missier: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/F2F1ConceptDefinitions#Agent ←
15:46:44 <pgroth> An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity. It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred
Paul Groth: An agent is a SOMETHING (TBD) capable of activity. It can be asserted to be an agent or can be inferred ←
15:46:44 <pgroth> to be an agent by involvement in a process execution.
Paul Groth: to be an agent by involvement in a process execution. ←
15:46:46 <jcheney> pgroth: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity"
Paul Groth: We had a number of definitions of the form "an agent is <something> capable of activity" ←
15:46:53 <Zakim> +??P67
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P67 ←
15:47:08 <Zakim> - +1.509.554.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.509.554.aaaa ←
15:47:32 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:47:32 <rgolden> q+
Ryan Golden: q+ ←
15:47:33 <jcheney> pgroth: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution
Paul Groth: Disagreement over whether involvement is necessary/sufficient and relation to process execution ←
15:47:35 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:47:40 <ericstephan> sorry have to leave early today
Eric Stephan: sorry have to leave early today ←
15:48:09 <JimMcCusker> +q
James McCusker: +q ←
15:48:15 <pgroth> ack rgolden
Paul Groth: ack rgolden ←
15:48:19 <jcheney> ryan: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation
Ryan Golden: Terminology is confusing since agent usually means the execution of a program or instantiation ←
15:48:28 <jcheney> ryan: Suggest renaming process execution to agent
Ryan Golden: Suggest renaming process execution to agent ←
15:48:45 <jcheney> ryan: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function
Ryan Golden: Concept of agent at F2F tied more closely to role or function ←
15:49:26 <jcheney> ryan: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization"
Ryan Golden: See need to tie process execution to new concept: "person or organization" ←
15:49:43 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:49:50 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker
Paul Groth: ack JimMcCusker ←
15:49:58 <Paolo> zakim, please mute me
Paolo Missier: zakim, please mute me ←
15:49:58 <Zakim> Paolo was already muted, Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo was already muted, Paolo ←
15:50:06 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:50:17 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something)
James McCusker: Don't see wy process execution (event in the past) is the same as agent (something able to do something) ←
15:50:34 <dgarijo> I agree with Jim.
Daniel Garijo: I agree with Jim. ←
15:50:44 <Satya> agree with @Jim
Satya Sahoo: agree with @Jim ←
15:50:49 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs)
James McCusker: agent can be a role (something that does something) but is rarely an event (something that occurs) ←
15:50:51 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:51:41 <jcheney> ryan:this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob
Ryan Golden: this may be similar to meta-distinction between entity and entitystate/bob ←
15:51:44 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
15:52:03 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
15:52:08 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:52:12 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:52:27 <Satya> @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc.
Satya Sahoo: @Ryan - we can make provenance assertions about the agent, e.g. if a sensor is an agent, its manufacturer, it date of manufacture etc. ←
15:52:32 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way?
James McCusker: can ryan point us to references where "agent" is used this way? ←
15:52:42 <jcheney> ryan: wikipedia for "software agent"
Ryan Golden: wikipedia for "software agent" ←
15:52:58 <Satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
15:53:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals)
James McCusker: "agent" is more general than "software agent" (e.g. people, computers, animals) ←
15:53:30 <jcheney> ryan: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization
Ryan Golden: key is not name "agent" but establishing an owner or that process execution is acting on behalf of person or organization ←
15:53:40 <pgroth> ack Satya
Paul Groth: ack Satya ←
15:53:46 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event
James McCusker: yes, an agent is something that is controlling an event ←
15:54:05 <jcheney> satya: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself
Satya Sahoo: jim myers pointed out that we should be able to make assertions about the provenance itself ←
15:54:17 <jcheney> satya: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent
Satya Sahoo: owner of an agent can be an agent; sensor could be a type of agent ←
15:54:30 <jcheney> satya: deborah mentioned two things about agent:
Satya Sahoo: deborah mentioned two things about agent: ←
15:54:38 <jcheney> satya: 1. making assertion that something is an agent
Satya Sahoo: 1. making assertion that something is an agent ←
15:54:39 <Zakim> -Yolanda
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yolanda ←
15:54:40 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
15:54:45 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:54:55 <Zakim> +??P14
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14 ←
15:54:57 <jcheney> satya: 2. is something an agent only if it is involved in a process?
Satya Sahoo: 2. is something an agent only if it is involved in a process? ←
15:55:02 <JimMcCusker> Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent
James McCusker: Conversely, see the philosophical definition of Agent here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agent ←
15:55:15 <jorn> zakim, ??p14 is me
Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p14 is me ←
15:55:15 <Zakim> +jorn; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it ←
15:55:29 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
15:55:32 <jcheney> pgroth: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model? there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party
Paul Groth: Do we want to subclass "agent" within a provenance model? there may be a need for distinction between people, organization, responsible party ←
15:55:52 <jcheney> luc: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution)
Luc Moreau: ryan also pointed to issue of confusion between recipe (process) and agent (process execution) ←
15:56:12 <jcheney> luc: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe
Luc Moreau: if agent is a piece of software, what is difference between agent and recipe ←
15:56:30 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:56:31 <jcheney> luc: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??)
Luc Moreau: came up in OPM, and a lot of OPM graphs may have this confusion (??) ←
15:56:33 <Satya> recipe is a specification in my view
Satya Sahoo: recipe is a specification in my view ←
15:57:09 <jcheney> pgroth: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification"
Paul Groth: there is a need for "responsible <someone or something>" and for "process specification" ←
15:57:18 <Luc> @satya: a program is a specification for an execution
Luc Moreau: @satya: a program is a specification for an execution ←
15:57:18 <GK> volitional vs computational?
Graham Klyne: volitional vs computational? ←
15:57:20 <jcheney> pgroth: Is agent more or less than responsible entity?
Paul Groth: Is agent more or less than responsible entity? ←
15:57:24 <JimMcCusker> Responsibility is a role of an entity
James McCusker: Responsibility is a role of an entity ←
15:57:27 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:57:27 <dgarijo> @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example?
Daniel Garijo: @Satya specification or a template stating the steps of the process, for example? ←
15:57:27 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
15:57:32 <JimMcCusker> a participatory role
James McCusker: a participatory role ←
15:57:37 <JimMcCusker> q+
James McCusker: q+ ←
15:57:39 <Luc> q-
Luc Moreau: q- ←
15:57:42 <pgroth> ack Luc
Paul Groth: ack Luc ←
15:58:03 <jcheney> pgroth: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent"
Paul Groth: If we have responsible entity, maybe we don't need "agent" ←
15:58:36 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
15:58:38 <jcheney> smiles: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not
Simon Miles: We will want to talk about people in provenance, sometimes software agent is responsible entity, sometimes not ←
15:59:10 <pgroth> ack JimMcCusker
Paul Groth: ack JimMcCusker ←
15:59:11 <jcheney> smiles: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies
Simon Miles: Shouldn't be part of provenance model, but should allow use of notions of agent etc. from other models/ontologies ←
15:59:12 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
15:59:44 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process
James McCusker: If we are just saying that an agent is an entity that can participate in some active way in a process ←
16:00:05 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies
James McCusker: we can define this relationally in terms of a role and offload ontology of agents to other ontologies ←
16:00:24 <Satya> q+
Satya Sahoo: q+ ←
16:00:28 <jcheney> JimMcCusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context
James McCusker: Other ontologies can use notion of agent appropriate to the context ←
16:00:42 <pgroth> ack Satya
Paul Groth: ack Satya ←
16:01:02 <jcheney> satya: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean? Subscribing to semantics of other model?
Satya Sahoo: When we say we are not going to define agent in provenance model but reuse, what does that mean? Subscribing to semantics of other model? ←
16:01:26 <khalidbelhajjame> +q
Khalid Belhajjame: +q ←
16:01:42 <Lena> +q
Helena Deus: +q ←
16:01:43 <smiles> q+
Simon Miles: q+ ←
16:01:45 <jcheney> satya: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents
Satya Sahoo: Secondly, when we use responsibility/participation to stand in for agency, we lose ability to express assertions about agents ←
16:02:22 <jcheney> khalid: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about
Khalid Belhajjame: If we define agent as a role, it is a relation between something and process execution, so we need placeholder for agents that we can make assertions about ←
16:02:25 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:02:25 <Lena> can you hear me?
Helena Deus: can you hear me? ←
16:02:26 <Paolo> q+
Paolo Missier: q+ ←
16:02:27 <jorn> zakim, unmute lena
Jörn Hees: zakim, unmute lena ←
16:02:27 <Zakim> Lena should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Lena should no longer be muted ←
16:02:31 <Luc> ack khal
Luc Moreau: ack khal ←
16:02:36 <pgroth> ack Lena
Paul Groth: ack Lena ←
16:02:59 <pgroth> ack smiles
Paul Groth: ack smiles ←
16:03:02 <jcheney> lena: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies?
Helena Deus: Is agent something we can delegate to other ontologies? ←
16:03:17 <Paolo> zakim, unmute me
Paolo Missier: zakim, unmute me ←
16:03:17 <Zakim> Paolo was not muted, Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: Paolo was not muted, Paolo ←
16:03:34 <jcheney> smiles: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents.
Simon Miles: was not suggesting reusing other ontology, just allowing use of any ontology for agents. ←
16:03:50 <jcheney> smiles: we may need to make assertions about agents
Simon Miles: we may need to make assertions about agents ←
16:04:01 <Satya> q+ to respond to simon
Satya Sahoo: q+ to respond to simon ←
16:04:03 <jcheney> lena: we may need to identify agents of change
Helena Deus: we may need to identify agents of change ←
16:04:20 <pgroth> ack Paolo
Paul Groth: ack Paolo ←
16:04:29 <jcheney> paolo: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific
Paolo Missier: happy with Jim's idea that all we need is a relation, and agents can be domain-specific ←
16:04:52 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
Graham Klyne: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec. ←
16:04:56 <jcheney> paolo: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points
Paolo Missier: can still make sensible assertions without committing to a specific ontologies, have to identify boundaries of language and extension points ←
16:05:20 <jcheney> paolo: Should be as minimalistic as possible
Paolo Missier: Should be as minimalistic as possible ←
16:05:24 <pgroth> q?
Paul Groth: q? ←
16:05:25 <Luc> q+
Luc Moreau: q+ ←
16:05:27 <Luc> q-
Luc Moreau: q- ←
16:05:29 <Luc> q?
Luc Moreau: q? ←
16:05:34 <jcheney> satya: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things:
Satya Sahoo: Agree with paolo but may be mixing two things: ←
16:05:36 <pgroth> ack Satya
Paul Groth: ack Satya ←
16:05:36 <Zakim> Satya, you wanted to respond to simon
Zakim IRC Bot: Satya, you wanted to respond to simon ←
16:05:51 <jcheney> satya: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts
Satya Sahoo: When defining agent in provenance model, we are defining in same high level, abstract sense as other concepts ←
16:06:06 <jcheney> satya: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions
Satya Sahoo: some domains can have software agents, other domains can have other notions ←
16:06:29 <jcheney> satya: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state
Satya Sahoo: need something that stands in for this agency concept/entity/entity state ←
16:06:38 <Paolo> @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship
Paolo Missier: @satya: I agree that we need some /abstraction/ of one end of the relationship ←
16:06:40 <jcheney> satya: cannot make assertions about relationship only
Satya Sahoo: cannot make assertions about relationship only ←
16:06:53 <Paolo> but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept
Paolo Missier: but I am happy for that to be a top-level concept ←
16:07:16 <GK> I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec.
Graham Klyne: I think there's a tension here: needs of use cases vs desire to keep core provenance ontology minimal. Ideally, we should be able to answer some of the use-cases by referring to other ontologies without baking them into our spec. ←
16:07:20 <Luc> yes, can we have a few examples?
Luc Moreau: yes, can we have a few examples? ←
16:07:23 <Paolo> interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call
Paolo Missier: interesting discussion, but I need to switch to another call ←
16:07:28 <dgarijo> @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly..
Daniel Garijo: @Paolo as far as it can be subtyped properly.. ←
16:07:36 <jcheney> pgroth: need examples where it is important to know agency
Paul Groth: need examples where it is important to know agency ←
16:07:37 <Zakim> -??P0
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P0 ←
16:07:39 <Zakim> -??P44
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P44 ←
16:07:39 <Satya> @paolo and @daniel - agree
Satya Sahoo: @paolo and @daniel - agree ←
16:07:40 <Zakim> -jorn
Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn ←
16:07:41 <Paolo> @daniel sure!
Paolo Missier: @daniel sure! ←
16:07:44 <Zakim> -Lena
Zakim IRC Bot: -Lena ←
16:07:45 <Zakim> - +1.216.368.aacc
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.216.368.aacc ←
16:07:45 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame
Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame ←
16:07:45 <Zakim> -olaf
Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf ←
16:07:46 <Zakim> -tlebo
Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo ←
16:07:48 <Zakim> -??P22
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P22 ←
16:07:50 <Zakim> -Paolo
Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo ←
16:07:52 <Zakim> - +1.512.524.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.512.524.aabb ←
16:07:54 <Zakim> -dgarijo
Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo ←
16:07:56 <Zakim> -Luc
Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc ←
16:08:00 <Zakim> -MacTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed ←
16:08:02 <Zakim> -SamCoppens
Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens ←
16:08:04 <Zakim> -??P67
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P67 ←
16:08:08 <Zakim> -Yogesh
Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh ←
16:08:12 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
16:08:16 <Zakim> -??P10
Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10 ←
16:08:16 <pgroth> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp
Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/HowToSetUp ←
16:08:23 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public
Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public ←
16:08:28 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes
Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
16:08:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html pgroth ←
16:08:31 <rgolden> @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler. It needs to be useful.
Ryan Golden: @GK agree to keep the ontology as simple as possible, but no simpler. It needs to be useful. ←
16:08:33 <pgroth> trackbot, end telcon
Paul Groth: trackbot, end telcon ←
16:08:33 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
16:08:33 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc,
Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been +1.509.554.aaaa, Luc, GK, khalidbelhajjame, pgroth, tlebo, Yogesh, olaf, MacTed, Sandro, Reza, jcheney, +1.512.524.aabb, +1.216.368.aacc, ←
16:08:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
16:08:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2011/07/14-prov-minutes.html trackbot ←
16:08:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
16:08:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
16:08:36 <Zakim> ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena
Zakim IRC Bot: ... dgarijo, jorn, Yolanda, Paolo, SamCoppens, Lena ←
Formatted by CommonScribe