Slides archived at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0440.html
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<sandro> Present: rees, wallace, msmith, m_schnei, haase, jie, zhe, sandro, ruttenberg, ian, boris, pfps, Miroslav, Achille, Vipul
Scribe problem: the name 'Miroslav' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Jeff Pan Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michel Dumontier Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Rob Shearer Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu
<sandro> Remote: bijan, uli, carsten, dlm, elisa, christine
Scribe problem: the name 'carsten' does not match any of the 49 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Christine Golbreich Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Diego Calvanese Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Héctor Pérez Urbina Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman Jeff Pan Jie Bao Joanne Luciano Jonathan Rees Kendall Clark Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Michael Schneider Michel Dumontier Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Haase Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Rob Shearer Sandro Hawke Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu
12:01:38 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2008/07/29-owl-irc ←
12:01:57 <IanH> zakim, this will be owl
Ian Horrocks: zakim, this will be owl ←
12:01:57 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start now ←
12:02:32 <IanH> IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2
Ian Horrocks: IanH has changed the topic to: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F3_Agenda#Day_2 ←
12:02:49 <IanH> Zakim, this will be owlwg
Ian Horrocks: Zakim, this will be owlwg ←
12:02:49 <Zakim> ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, IanH; I see SW_OWL()8:00AM scheduled to start 2 minutes ago ←
12:03:02 <IanH> RRSAgent, make records public
Ian Horrocks: RRSAgent, make records public ←
12:34:46 <Carsten> good morning. :)
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Unknown carsten: good morning. :) ←
12:59:58 <Zakim> SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started
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Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()8:00AM has now started ←
13:00:04 <Zakim> +??P2
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P2 ←
13:00:13 <uli> zakim, ??P2 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P2 is me ←
13:00:13 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
13:00:24 <uli> and good morning to you!
Uli Sattler: and good morning to you! ←
13:02:11 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:11 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:02:26 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:02:26 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:03:55 <uli> Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement!
Uli Sattler: Hey, I should use this opportunity for advertisement! ←
13:04:53 <uli> Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/
Uli Sattler: Please remember to submit to OWLED 2008 -- deadline for abstracts is next week, more details can be found at http://www.webont.org/owled/2008/ ←
13:05:26 <uli> we are looking forward to receiving your submissions.
Uli Sattler: we are looking forward to receiving your submissions. ←
13:06:03 <uli> Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/
Uli Sattler: Also, around ISWC and OWLED, there will be interesting tutorials -- please have a look at http://iswc2008.semanticweb.org/program/tutorials/ ←
13:06:15 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:15 <Zakim> sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, uli, muting is not permitted when only one person is present ←
13:06:37 <Zakim> +Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: +Meeting_Room ←
13:06:41 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
13:06:41 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
13:10:03 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
13:10:16 <bparsia> zakim, ??p1 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p1 is me ←
13:10:16 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
13:10:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:10:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:11:31 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
13:11:31 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted) ←
13:11:32 <Zakim> On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see msmith, Zhe, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, jar, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
13:11:42 <uli> hiho
Uli Sattler: hiho ←
13:11:48 <bparsia> hullo
Bijan Parsia: hullo ←
13:12:18 <Achille> sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command
Achille Fokoue: sandro could you please make me the scribe? I forgot the magic command ←
13:13:10 <uli> scribenick: Achille
(Scribe set to Achille Fokoue)
13:13:15 <Zakim> + +00493514633aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +00493514633aaaa ←
13:13:24 <Carsten> zakim, aaaa is me
Unknown carsten: zakim, aaaa is me ←
13:13:24 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
13:13:33 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Unknown carsten: zakim, mute me ←
13:13:33 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:13:47 <Achille> topic: datatype roundup
13:15:02 <msmith> working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html
Michael Smith: working from http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html ←
13:15:07 <Achille> subtopic: Issue 126 : list of normative datatype
13:15:38 <Achille> ianh: as per the previous email (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html), we have decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema
Ian Horrocks: as per the previous email (http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0306.html), we have decided to have xsd:float discret as in XML Schema ←
13:16:17 <Achille> ianh: we need to decide about rational
Ian Horrocks: we need to decide about rational ←
13:16:32 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
13:16:38 <uli> q-
Uli Sattler: q- ←
13:16:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:16:48 <Achille> mike: we have decided to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype
Michael Smith: we have decided to postpone a decision on rational for the time of discussing N-ary datatype ←
13:17:32 <Achille> boris: owl:numberPlus contains -0. What happen to facet?
Boris Motik: owl:numberPlus contains -0. What happen to facet? ←
13:17:58 <Achille> alanr: XSD should answer this question
Alan Ruttenberg: XSD should answer this question ←
13:18:09 <Achille> mike : XSD says that 0=-0
mike : XSD says that 0=-0 ←
13:18:44 <msmith> for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float
Michael Smith: for +/-0 see http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#float ←
13:19:10 <Achille> alanr: my worry is that float and double aren't the same
Alan Ruttenberg: my worry is that float and double aren't the same ←
13:20:51 <Achille> msmith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range
Michael Smith: xsd NaN when used for range defined an empty range ←
13:21:14 <bparsia> It's definitely not maxfloat
Bijan Parsia: It's definitely not maxfloat ←
13:22:03 <Achille> alanr: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity
Alan Ruttenberg: adding 1 to maxfloat gets you to infinity ←
13:22:20 <Achille> alanr: same thing for double
Alan Ruttenberg: same thing for double ←
13:23:16 <Achille> boris: any range that contains 0, also contains -0?
Boris Motik: any range that contains 0, also contains -0? ←
13:23:28 <Achille> boris: XSD addresses different concerns compared to OWL datatypes.
Boris Motik: XSD addresses different concerns compared to OWL datatypes. ←
13:23:52 <Achille> boris: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc)
Boris Motik: the pb is that we also have true number (integer decimal, etc) ←
13:24:00 <Achille> alanr: what is the consequence?
Alan Ruttenberg: what is the consequence? ←
13:24:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:24:55 <Achille> m_schnei: -0 also denotes 0
Michael Schneider: -0 also denotes 0 ←
13:26:49 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO
Michael Schneider: if you ask for "{-0} subset [-1,+1]", then the reasoner should say yes, because the float *literal* "-0" denotes the *value* ZERO [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:25:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:25:20 <Achille> boris: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0
Boris Motik: it should be fine since integer does not contain -0 ←
13:26:26 <bparsia> I like owl:real
Bijan Parsia: I like owl:real ←
13:27:46 <m_schnei> ian: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"?
Ian Horrocks: what about "owl:number" vs. "owl:real"? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
13:28:47 <m_schnei> several people: "owl:real" is better
Michael Schneider: several people: "owl:real" is better ←
13:26:29 <Achille> ianh: owl:number is renamed owl:real
Ian Horrocks: owl:number is renamed owl:real ←
13:26:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:46 <Achille> ianh: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion
Ian Horrocks: owl:rational depends on the N-ary discussion ←
13:26:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:26:55 <Achille> ianh: No concern about integer?
Ian Horrocks: No concern about integer? ←
13:27:14 <Achille> alanr: we should add a minimum conformance of 64 bit integer.
Alan Ruttenberg: we should add a minimum conformance of 64 bit integer. ←
13:27:59 <Achille> alanr: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction?
Alan Ruttenberg: what happen when there is a constant above the 64 bit restriction? ←
13:28:07 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:28:10 <Achille> ianh: we should discuss that later
Ian Horrocks: we should discuss that later ←
13:28:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:48 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:28:48 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:28:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:28:56 <Achille> alanr: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable
Alan Ruttenberg: a datatype range greater that the max integer is still statisfiable ←
13:28:57 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:29:20 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:29:20 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:29:47 <Achille> alanr: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance
Alan Ruttenberg: let make the datatype document easily searchable for the key word conformance ←
13:30:19 <Achille> ianh: xsd:float and xsd:double value spaces are now discrete
Ian Horrocks: xsd:float and xsd:double value spaces are now discrete ←
13:30:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:30:55 <Achille> alanr: how do we decide between XSD vs. IEEE for float and double?
Alan Ruttenberg: how do we decide between XSD vs. IEEE for float and double? ←
13:31:33 <bparsia> I prefer IEEE in general
Bijan Parsia: I prefer IEEE in general ←
13:32:01 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable to anything else
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable to anything else ←
13:32:10 <bparsia> There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself
Bijan Parsia: There are a lot of NaN. And for any NaN and any other float/double NaN != that number, including itself ←
13:32:47 <Achille> msmith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation
Michael Smith: xsd:float has a single lexical representation ←
13:33:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:33:14 <Achille> m_schnei: NaN is not comparable with itself!
Michael Schneider: NaN is not comparable with itself! ←
13:33:39 <Achille> alanr: you should also consider the need for counting float elements
Alan Ruttenberg: you should also consider the need for counting float elements ←
13:33:55 <Achille> msmith: can reasoning introduce NaN?
Michael Smith: can reasoning introduce NaN? ←
13:34:32 <Achille> boris: let's go with XSD (instead of IEEE)
Boris Motik: let's go with XSD (instead of IEEE) ←
13:34:58 <Achille> ianh: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD (instead of IEEE)
Ian Horrocks: everybody seems to agree with going with XSD (instead of IEEE) ←
13:35:10 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:35:26 <Achille> alanr: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type?
Alan Ruttenberg: is it useful to have xsd:decimal as a type? ←
13:35:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
13:35:46 <Achille> msmith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number
Michael Smith: it gives you arbitrary precision decimal number ←
13:35:55 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:07 <bparsia> 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float)
Bijan Parsia: 1/10 is a decimal but not a binary number (e.g., float) ←
13:36:10 <Achille> alanr: how do i test that something is a decimal number
Alan Ruttenberg: how do i test that something is a decimal number ←
13:36:19 <bparsia> I can't understand alan rut
Bijan Parsia: I can't understand alan rut ←
13:36:31 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
13:36:39 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema11-2/#decimal ←
13:36:40 <Achille> pfps: XSD has a well defined answer to that question. please read the spec.
Peter Patel-Schneider: XSD has a well defined answer to that question. please read the spec. ←
13:36:46 <bparsia> I can't udnerstand alan at all
Bijan Parsia: I can't udnerstand alan at all ←
13:36:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:53 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:36:54 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:36:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:36:59 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:37:33 <Achille> alanr: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question
Alan Ruttenberg: i'll read xsd spec to get the answer to my question ←
13:37:59 <Achille> alanr: my problem is between real and decimal
Alan Ruttenberg: my problem is between real and decimal ←
13:38:41 <Achille> pfps: decimal = integer * 10^integer
Peter Patel-Schneider: decimal = integer * 10^integer ←
13:39:02 <bparsia> I still didn't catch that from alan
Bijan Parsia: I still didn't catch that from alan ←
13:39:17 <bparsia> It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits
Bijan Parsia: It would help if he slowed down, becuase thphone seems to cut out on soft bits ←
13:39:19 <sandro> Alan: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so.
Alan Ruttenberg: Is it required that every datatype for serialization is also a datatype for range restrictions? I don't think so. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
13:39:58 <Achille> m_schnei: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double
Michael Schneider: I can approximate as precisely as wish sqrt(2) using decimal but not with float or double ←
13:40:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:40:20 <bparsia> But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative
Bijan Parsia: But the way, I wasn't intending those searchs as determinative ←
13:40:29 <bparsia> I was just gathering some evidence
Bijan Parsia: I was just gathering some evidence ←
13:40:31 <Achille> boris: we should allow it as a legacy datatype
Boris Motik: we should allow it as a legacy datatype ←
13:40:41 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:40:49 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:40:53 <Achille> alanr: that's agood argument. thanks!
Alan Ruttenberg: that's agood argument. thanks! ←
13:40:57 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:40:59 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
13:41:00 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
13:41:06 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
13:42:23 <Achille> bijan, I did not get your point. Could you type it?
bijan, I did not get your point. Could you type it? ←
13:43:09 <Achille> alanr: there is no one-to-one mapping between decimal and real
Alan Ruttenberg: there is no one-to-one mapping between decimal and real ←
13:43:33 <bparsia> I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal
Bijan Parsia: I'm worried about things like (not sure that is a correct case) 0.1^^xsd:float != 0.1^^xsd:decimal ←
13:43:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:44:04 <Achille> alanr: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real
Alan Ruttenberg: decimal as a datatype is a synonym for real ←
13:44:29 <bparsia> -1 to decimal as a synonym for real
Bijan Parsia: -1 to decimal as a synonym for real ←
13:44:47 <bparsia> decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :)
Bijan Parsia: decimal isn't even a synonym for rational :) ←
13:44:39 <Achille> zhe: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal
Zhe Wu: do we need to specify a minimal conformance for decimal ←
13:44:48 <Achille> boris: there is such restriction in XSD w.r.t. conformance
Boris Motik: there is such restriction in XSD w.r.t. conformance ←
13:45:57 <Achille> ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: decimal is the most useful datetype in XSD ←
13:45:25 <bparsia> Integer, rational, decimal etc.
Bijan Parsia: Integer, rational, decimal etc. ←
13:45:33 <bparsia> Algebraic reals are denumeral
Bijan Parsia: Algebraic reals are denumeral ←
13:45:37 <bparsia> Only the transcendental
Bijan Parsia: Only the transcendental ←
13:45:47 <bparsia> +1 evan
Bijan Parsia: +1 evan ←
13:45:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:45:55 <uli> Alan Rector was really glad about decimal
Uli Sattler: Alan Rector was really glad about decimal ←
13:46:34 <Achille> alanr: I'm ok with keeping decimal in the spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm ok with keeping decimal in the spec ←
13:46:44 <msmith> zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues
Michael Smith: zhe and others interested in conformance, new page itemizing what needs to be addressed at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ConformanceIssues ←
13:47:19 <Achille> m_schnei: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real
Michael Schneider: I do not understand why xsd:decimal is owl:real ←
13:47:33 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:47:33 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:47:36 <Achille> ianh: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate
Ian Horrocks: we have discussed it and decided to leave them separate ←
13:48:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:04 <Achille> alanr: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength and maxLength facets?
Alan Ruttenberg: for base64Binary, should will allow length, minLength and maxLength facets? ←
13:49:40 <Achille> m_schnei: why are these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin) included in OWL Spec?
Michael Schneider: why are these datatypes (base64Bin, hexBin) included in OWL Spec? ←
13:49:44 <Achille> boris: why not?
Boris Motik: why not? ←
13:49:54 <Carsten> Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional?
Unknown carsten: Wouldn't it make sense to make a lot of this exotic stuff optional? ←
13:49:58 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:49:59 <Achille> m_schnei: why not everything from xsd?
Michael Schneider: why not everything from xsd? ←
13:50:21 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
13:50:28 <Achille> alanr: we are trying to get a agreement on a list of acceptable datatypes
Alan Ruttenberg: we are trying to get a agreement on a list of acceptable datatypes ←
13:50:28 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
13:50:28 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
13:50:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:50:30 <Carsten> Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Unknown carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:50:44 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:50:49 <sandro> ack bparsia
Sandro Hawke: ack bparsia ←
13:51:09 <Achille> bijan: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype about its usage.
Bijan Parsia: the most important thing is to make sure that we say something meaningful about each datatype about its usage. ←
13:51:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
13:51:42 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
13:51:50 <Achille> bijan: in swoogle, I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further
Bijan Parsia: in swoogle, I found a couple of these datatypes, but I need to investigate further ←
13:52:08 <m_schnei> +1 to Carsten (I think...)
Michael Schneider: +1 to Carsten (I think...) ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData16"> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:33 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;hexBinary"/> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:34 <Achille> boris: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of elements in a given range
Boris Motik: i think it is not difficult to implement these types. All you need is to find the number of elements in a given range ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64">
Bijan Parsia: <owl:DatatypeProperty rdf:ID="MediaData64"> ←
13:52:34 <bparsia> <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:domain rdf:resource="#InlineMediaType"/> ←
13:52:36 <bparsia> <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/>
Bijan Parsia: <rdfs:range rdf:resource="&xsd;base64Binary"/> ←
13:52:38 <bparsia> </owl:DatatypeProperty>
Bijan Parsia: </owl:DatatypeProperty> ←
13:52:43 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
13:52:49 <Achille> boris: it is almost identical to string in terms of implementation
Boris Motik: it is almost identical to string in terms of implementation ←
13:52:58 <uli> ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice?
Uli Sattler: ...this finiteness could still cause performance problems, but i guess having a warning about this could suffice? ←
13:52:59 <bparsia> I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial
Bijan Parsia: I'm ok in forcing implementmation if it's relatively trivial ←
13:53:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:53:32 <Achille> alanr: There is some concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them
Alan Ruttenberg: There is some concern from Carsten, but everybody else seems to agree to support them ←
13:53:48 <Achille> Carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin
Unknown carsten: Seems bad to *force* implementors to have datatypes like base64bin ←
13:53:49 <bparsia> +1 to boris
Bijan Parsia: +1 to boris ←
13:54:00 <Carsten> My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional
Unknown carsten: My proposal was to make the exotic stuff optional ←
13:54:25 <Achille> boris: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatypes
Boris Motik: the implementation overhead is almost identical for string. So if we have string, we can also have binary datatypes ←
13:54:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:54:31 <alanr> optional = incompatible
Alan Ruttenberg: optional = incompatible ←
13:55:02 <Carsten> q+
Unknown carsten: q+ ←
13:55:10 <Carsten> zakim, unmute me
Unknown carsten: zakim, unmute me ←
13:55:10 <Zakim> Carsten should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should no longer be muted ←
13:55:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:55:14 <Achille> ianh: we have decided to avoid optional datatypes
Ian Horrocks: we have decided to avoid optional datatypes ←
13:55:14 <alanr> carsten, this is easy stuff
Alan Ruttenberg: carsten, this is easy stuff ←
13:55:34 <Achille> carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional. It seems to me that these types are of limited use.
Unknown carsten: I do not care so much about whether this is optional. It seems to me that these types are of limited use. ←
13:56:42 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Unknown carsten: zakim, mute me ←
13:56:42 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:56:46 <m_schnei> Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion
Michael Schneider: Carsten, I think this is a moot discussion ←
13:56:55 <Achille> carsten: I am not sure that the only important point for completeness is the ability to count elements in a range. We may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element.
Unknown carsten: I am not sure that the only important point for completeness is the ability to count elements in a range. We may have to also check that a range does not contain a given element. ←
13:57:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:57:20 <Carsten> q-
Unknown carsten: q- ←
13:57:20 <Achille> boris: you can easily map all the floats to integers
Boris Motik: you can easily map all the floats to integers ←
13:57:21 <IanH> ack Carsten
Ian Horrocks: ack Carsten ←
13:57:27 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Unknown carsten: zakim, mute me ←
13:57:27 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
13:57:49 <Carsten> ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely
Unknown carsten: ok, thanks for the explanation, I have to admit that it is not easy to follow the discussion remotely ←
13:57:53 <Achille> boris: the complexity is not worse than for integer
Boris Motik: the complexity is not worse than for integer ←
13:57:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
13:58:00 <Carsten> an email summing up would be nice, indeed
Unknown carsten: an email summing up would be nice, indeed ←
13:58:13 <Achille> boris: i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range
Boris Motik: i can send u code to get the next float and the number of float in a range ←
13:58:14 <bparsia> See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm
Bijan Parsia: See: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/comparingfloats.htm ←
13:58:26 <Achille> boris: I have redrew my objection to float
Boris Motik: I have redrew my objection to float ←
13:58:34 <bparsia> In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455
Bijan Parsia: In particular: http://www.cygnus-software.com/papers/comparingfloats/Comparing%20floating%20point%20numbers.htm#_Toc135149455 ←
13:58:37 <Achille> ianh: we are done with numeric?
Ian Horrocks: we are done with numeric? ←
13:59:54 <bparsia> There's a standard one for iSO
Bijan Parsia: There's a standard one for iSO ←
14:00:00 <Achille> ianh: yesterday , we agreed to support xsd:dateTime with timezone
Ian Horrocks: yesterday , we agreed to support xsd:dateTime with timezone ←
14:00:17 <bparsia> As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris
Bijan Parsia: As a point of interest, ISO 8601 fixes a reference calendar date to the Gregorian calendar of 1875-05-20 as the date the Convention du Mètre was signed in Paris ←
14:00:31 <Achille> pfps: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting are gone.
Peter Patel-Schneider: datetime is dense so all the problem wih counting are gone. ←
14:02:13 <m_schnei> evan: do we support leap seconds?
Evan Wallace: do we support leap seconds? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:02:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:02:37 <m_schnei> pfps: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps
Peter Patel-Schneider: if we don't do arithmetics, it doesn't matter, since the ordering isn't hurt by leaps [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:03:35 <Achille> ianh: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength
Ian Horrocks: xsd:dateTime facet: length, minLength,maxLength ←
14:04:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:05:36 <Achille> alanr: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime which will require timezone?
Alan Ruttenberg: why not just create a new datatype owl:dateTime which will require timezone? ←
14:06:21 <bparsia> +1 to xsd:datetime
Bijan Parsia: +1 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:37 <uli> +178 to xsd:datetime
Uli Sattler: +178 to xsd:datetime ←
14:06:46 <bparsia> I would call it a conformance thing
Bijan Parsia: I would call it a conformance thing ←
14:07:38 <uli> ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'!
Uli Sattler: ...I very much like Ian's suggestion about the 'may repair al gusto'! ←
14:07:48 <Achille> ianh: we have already decided to let application do they own repair to address missing time zone
Ian Horrocks: we have already decided to let application do they own repair to address missing time zone ←
14:07:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:08:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:03 <Achille> boris: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline
Boris Motik: xsd makes an error here by saying that it is isomorphic to the timeline ←
14:09:08 <bparsia> -1000 to tuple model
Bijan Parsia: -1000 to tuple model ←
14:09:32 <Achille> ianh: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone
Ian Horrocks: let's not reconsider our decision made yesterday about mandating timezone ←
14:09:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:09:57 <bparsia> Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs
Bijan Parsia: Btw, both generating and consuming tools can offer corrections and repairs ←
14:10:16 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:10:24 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:10:39 <Achille> m_schnei: in practice, it is not a problem because any application that accepts non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them
Michael Schneider: in practice, it is not a problem because any application that accepts non-timezone has to come up with some strategy to deal with them ←
14:10:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:11:16 <Achille> ianh: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps
Ian Horrocks: that is precisely the point we cannot mandate any behavior to all apps ←
14:11:37 <m_schnei> sandro: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS
Sandro Hawke: we should talk to the XSD 1.1 WG what we think is wrong with non-timezoned dateTimeS [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:11:42 <Achille> sandro: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group
Sandro Hawke: we should make a formal comment to XSD 1.1 working group ←
14:12:07 <Achille> pfps: I'll send them a forml comment
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll send them a forml comment ←
14:12:14 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: pfps to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:14 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
14:12:27 <sandro> ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: peter to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
14:12:27 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
14:12:39 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft
ACTION: ppatelsc to draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft ←
14:12:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-176 - Draft a comment on XML Schema Datatypes 1.1 draft [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
14:12:41 <Achille> ianh: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair
Ian Horrocks: internally we require timezone, but let applications do the right repair ←
14:13:42 <bparsia> I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one
Bijan Parsia: I would also suggest that we document different repairs. Whether on the owl wg wiki or the owled one ←
14:13:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:14:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:15:48 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime, or our own dateTime datatype ←
14:16:27 <uli> ...too general/complex isn't bad?
Uli Sattler: ...too general/complex isn't bad? ←
14:16:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:17:02 <Achille> pfps: the comparison between datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification
Peter Patel-Schneider: the comparison between datetime with and w/o timezone is not feasable in our specification ←
14:17:03 <ekw> straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: straw poll: should we use XSD dateTime with a requirement for timezone component in text of spec ←
<IanH> Subtopic: Strawpoll on owl:dateTime -v- xsd:dateTime
14:17:06 <bmotik> STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime)
STRAWPOLL: Should we use owl:dateTime instead of xsd:dateTime (+1 = owl:dateTime, -1 = xsd:dateTime) ←
14:17:19 <Achille> achille: +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:17:23 <baojie> +1
14:17:26 <msmith> -1
Michael Smith: -1 ←
14:17:27 <bmotik> 0
Boris Motik: 0 ←
14:17:34 <Zhe> 0
14:17:37 <bparsia> -1 to xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to xsd:dateTime ←
14:17:40 <bparsia> er
Bijan Parsia: er ←
14:17:44 <bparsia> -1 to owl:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: -1 to owl:dateTime ←
14:17:47 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:17:52 <sandro> Alan: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, we'll still accept xsd:dateTime on input [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
14:17:57 <ekw> using boris' poll
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: using boris' poll ←
14:17:59 <ekw> -1
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: -1 ←
14:18:03 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
14:18:33 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:18:33 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:18:37 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
14:18:38 <pfps> 0 (+/- 1)
Peter Patel-Schneider: 0 (+/- 1) ←
14:18:44 <Achille> bijan:yes I want xsd:dateTime
Bijan Parsia: yes I want xsd:dateTime ←
14:19:06 <Achille> ianh: we almost have a split decision
Ian Horrocks: we almost have a split decision ←
14:20:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:20:24 <bparsia> Not just doable, but acceptible
Bijan Parsia: Not just doable, but acceptible ←
14:20:28 <Achille> alanr: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone
Alan Ruttenberg: we have agreed on xsd:dateTime with required timeZone ←
14:20:35 <bparsia> I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default
Bijan Parsia: I don't find, e.g., an interval to be a user-sensible default ←
14:20:53 <m_schnei> -1
Michael Schneider: -1 ←
14:21:32 <Achille> alanr: in other cases, we tried to keep xsd semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: in other cases, we tried to keep xsd semantics ←
14:21:47 <baojie> will owl:dateTime require a timezone?
Jie Bao: will owl:dateTime require a timezone? ←
14:21:55 <Achille> yes
yes ←
14:22:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:22:57 <Achille> ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: I am not comfortable by XSD 1.1 new semantics on dateTime ←
14:23:33 <bparsia> I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers)
Bijan Parsia: I would prefer that we calledit xsd:dateTime and said that we add additional restrictions (the way implemetnation might only support 64 bit integers) ←
14:23:36 <Achille> ianh: we defer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting
Ian Horrocks: we defer the issue of xsd:dateTime vs owl:dateTime for the next meeting ←
14:25:23 <Achille> achille: all the details on the decisions made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html
Achille Fokoue: all the details on the decisions made w.r.t datatype are posted at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html ←
14:25:50 <sandro> PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
PROPOSED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:25:57 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
14:26:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:26:04 <alanr> +1 Science Commons
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 Science Commons ←
14:26:10 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
14:26:12 <Achille> achille: +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
14:26:13 <pha> +1 (FZI)
Peter Haase: +1 (FZI) ←
14:26:15 <baojie> +1 RPI
14:26:17 <msmith> +1 C&P
Michael Smith: +1 C&P ←
14:26:18 <ekw> +1 NIST
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: +1 NIST ←
14:26:29 <Zhe> +1 ORACLE
14:26:32 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
14:26:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126.
RESOLVED: We'll handle the datatypes named in http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0433.html as described in that message. This closes ISSUE-126. ←
14:27:48 <Achille> boris: we agreed yesterday to make issue 132 an editorial issue
Boris Motik: we agreed yesterday to make ISSUE-132 an editorial issue ←
14:28:17 <Achille> topic: N-ary datatype
14:28:30 <Achille> ianh: a proposal is on the wiki
Ian Horrocks: a proposal is on the wiki ←
14:28:55 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:00 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:29:03 <Achille> ianh: there is compromise to make it optional, if a implementation decides to support it the spec specifies exactly how it should be implemented
Ian Horrocks: there is compromise to make it optional, if a implementation decides to support it the spec specifies exactly how it should be implemented ←
14:29:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:29:37 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:29:55 <Achille> alanr: there are interoperability issues here
Alan Ruttenberg: there are interoperability issues here ←
14:30:07 <bparsia> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
14:30:33 <bparsia> Hey!
Bijan Parsia: Hey! ←
14:30:37 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:30:37 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
14:30:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:30:58 <Achille> alanr: when you use that aspect of the spec, it is unlikely that you will be portable
Alan Ruttenberg: when you use that aspect of the spec, it is unlikely that you will be portable ←
14:31:00 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:31:03 <alanr> maybe
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe ←
14:31:08 <alanr> not clear
Alan Ruttenberg: not clear ←
14:31:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:32:08 <msmith> +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things
Michael Smith: +1 to bijan. There can be OWL DL conformance and OWL Nary datatype conformance as separate things ←
14:32:08 <alanr> I never use racer because of nominals
Alan Ruttenberg: I never use racer because of nominals ←
14:32:15 <Achille> bijan: i don't see why this is a problem. it is hard for me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation
Bijan Parsia: i don't see why this is a problem. it is hard for me to imagine that someone using an equation would not be aware that he is doing something hard for implementation ←
14:32:23 <alanr> consider it not to support OWL
Alan Ruttenberg: consider it not to support OWL ←
14:32:29 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:32:29 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:32:41 <Achille> bijan: This is just one of many things that tools will not support
Bijan Parsia: This is just one of many things that tools will not support ←
14:32:53 <bparsia> That'll be ture
Bijan Parsia: That'll be ture ←
14:33:06 <bparsia> And it won't include linear
Bijan Parsia: And it won't include linear ←
14:33:07 <Achille> alanr: I'm still concern about interoperability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm still concern about interoperability ←
14:33:13 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:33:25 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:33:25 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:33:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:33:55 <Achille> msmith: this goes to the conformance discussion
Michael Smith: this goes to the conformance discussion ←
14:34:10 <m_schnei> m_schnei: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension"
Michael Schneider: thinks that typical name for this is "a standard extension" [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
14:34:12 <Achille> msmith: we will have similar conformance isssue with profile.
Michael Smith: we will have similar conformance isssue with profile. ←
14:34:13 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:34:23 <bparsia> that was a separate q!
Bijan Parsia: that was a separate q! ←
14:34:25 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:34:29 <Achille> msmith: it is just another facet of this problem of conformance
Michael Smith: it is just another facet of this problem of conformance ←
14:34:37 <IanH> ack bparisa
Ian Horrocks: ack bparisa ←
14:34:41 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:34:46 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
14:35:01 <Achille> bijan: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document won't solve the problem
Bijan Parsia: i really don't understand why putting it in a different document won't solve the problem ←
14:35:48 <Achille> bijan: species validation will help you understand where you stand w.r.t. portability
Bijan Parsia: species validation will help you understand where you stand w.r.t. portability ←
14:36:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:01 <bparsia> expressive checking in general
Bijan Parsia: expressive checking in general ←
14:36:13 <bparsia> If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2
Bijan Parsia: If you have nominals, you can't use KAON2 ←
14:36:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:36:53 <bparsia> What's the question?
Bijan Parsia: What's the question? ←
14:37:15 <Achille> ianh: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ?
Ian Horrocks: will there be a specific proposal about N-ary ? ←
14:37:36 <uli> yes, I do
Uli Sattler: yes, I do ←
14:37:49 <Achille> bijan: it will be an extensibility point
Bijan Parsia: it will be an extensibility point ←
14:38:05 <Achille> bijan: we will have a specific proposal outside the main spec
Bijan Parsia: we will have a specific proposal outside the main spec ←
14:38:33 <bparsia> We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations
Bijan Parsia: We expect at least 2 interoperable implementations ←
14:38:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:38:40 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:38:45 <Achille> alanr: I'm concern with predictability
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm concern with predictability ←
14:38:48 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:39:13 <bparsia> I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec
Bijan Parsia: I would be happy to have linear inequations in the main spec ←
14:39:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:39:25 <uli> me to
Uli Sattler: me to ←
14:39:44 <uli> me too (to linear unequations)
Uli Sattler: me too (to linear unequations) ←
14:39:49 <Achille> ianh: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary between the main spec and the separate proposal?
Ian Horrocks: what is missing is whether the proposal will be acceptable and what is the boundary between the main spec and the separate proposal? ←
14:40:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:40:16 <Achille> boris: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec
Boris Motik: I do not want any N-ary in the core spec ←
14:40:38 <Carsten> inequalities give you integer programming?? How??
Unknown carsten: inequalities give you integer programming?? How?? ←
14:41:06 <Achille> ianh: boris thinks that the boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary
Ian Horrocks: boris thinks that the boundary should be as the spec stands now w/o N-ary ←
14:41:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the phone?
Sandro Hawke: zakim, who is on the phone? ←
14:41:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see uli (muted), Meeting_Room, bparsia, Carsten (muted) ←
14:41:29 <Achille> m_schnei: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementaters to do
Michael Schneider: i have no clue about what will be possible for implementaters to do ←
14:41:30 <bmotik> Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it.
Boris Motik: Perhaps not the full programming. My main problem is that I haven't seen an *exact* pointer to the literature what it is that I need to do to implement it. ←
14:41:54 <Achille> m_schnei: how hard is N-ary ?
m_schnei: how hard is N-ary ? ←
14:41:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:42:01 <bmotik> Some people promissed it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature.
Boris Motik: Some people promised it, but I haven't seen any actual pointers to literature. ←
14:42:11 <bmotik> s/promissed/promised
14:42:19 <bparsia> No one is advocating for crap specing
Bijan Parsia: No one is advocating for crap specing ←
14:42:21 <Achille> alanr: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec
Alan Ruttenberg: I'd like each extension to be as good and precise as in the current spec ←
14:42:26 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:42:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:13 <Achille> bparsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec
Bijan Parsia: yes of course, it will be as precise as the current spec ←
14:43:16 <uli> ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy!
Uli Sattler: ...and otherwise we won't accept it - this is easy! ←
14:43:22 <alanr> good
Alan Ruttenberg: good ←
14:43:41 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:43:41 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:43:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:43:43 <Achille> bparsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations
Bijan Parsia: I want to force a CR period and force implementations ←
14:43:46 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
14:44:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:44:19 <Achille> ianh: where should be the boundary?
Ian Horrocks: where should be the boundary? ←
14:44:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:04 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
14:45:05 <Achille> boris: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation of N-ary
Boris Motik: I am still waiting for a pointer to concrete implementation of N-ary ←
14:45:10 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
14:45:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
14:45:22 <Achille> bparsia: this is reasonable
Bijan Parsia: this is reasonable ←
14:45:57 <Achille> bparsia: a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later
Bijan Parsia: a lot of users pushed for linear equation , we should decide about the boundary later ←
14:45:59 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:45:59 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
14:46:50 <Achille> ianh: do we agree on a separate N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundary should be.
Ian Horrocks: do we agree on a separate N-ary document outside the main spec doc? we will have to decide later where the boundary should be. ←
14:47:12 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:13 <msmith> +1
Michael Smith: +1 ←
14:47:14 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:47:18 <baojie> +1
<IanH> Subtopic: Strawpoll on N-ary document outside main spec
14:47:29 <Achille> STRAWPOLL: do we agree on a separate N-ary document outside the main spec doc?
STRAWPOLL: do we agree on a separate N-ary document outside the main spec doc? ←
14:47:35 <pha> +1
Peter Haase: +1 ←
14:47:37 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
14:47:38 <bparsia> +1
Bijan Parsia: +1 ←
14:47:40 <pfps> +1
14:47:41 <Achille> achille: +1
Achille Fokoue: +1 ←
14:47:42 <ekw> +1
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: +1 ←
14:47:42 <Zhe> +1
14:47:43 <Carsten> 0
Unknown carsten: 0 ←
14:47:44 <m_schnei> +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*)
Michael Schneider: +1 (like the idea of n-aries *in principle*) ←
14:47:45 <alanr> 0
Alan Ruttenberg: 0 ←
14:47:52 <uli> +1
Uli Sattler: +1 ←
14:48:31 <bparsia> Is there a preferred wiki location?
Bijan Parsia: Is there a preferred wiki location? ←
14:48:37 <ekw> breaking now
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: breaking now ←
14:48:44 <alanr> can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary?
Alan Ruttenberg: can you call it "functions" instead of n-ary? ←
14:48:50 <alanr> people understand former
Alan Ruttenberg: people understand former ←
14:48:51 <Zakim> -Carsten
Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten ←
14:48:54 <bparsia> They aren't funcitons
Bijan Parsia: They aren't funcitons ←
14:48:57 <bparsia> Data predicates?
Bijan Parsia: Data predicates? ←
14:48:57 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
14:49:12 <alanr> maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe - let's brainstorm. n-ary is definitely confusing ←
14:49:21 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
14:49:21 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
14:49:32 <jar> quantitative constraints?
Jonathan Rees: quantitative constraints? ←
14:50:09 <jar> data constraints?
Jonathan Rees: data constraints? ←
14:51:01 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
14:51:01 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
15:00:00 <msmith> Topic: Break
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
15:16:16 <msmith> scribenick: msmith
(No events recorded for 16 minutes)
(Scribe set to Michael Smith)
15:16:12 <uli> +1 to 'data predicates' (instead of n-ary -- though it might take a while to get used to)
Uli Sattler: +1 to 'data predicates' (instead of n-ary -- though it might take a while to get used to) ←
15:16:46 <Zakim> +??P68
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P68 ←
15:16:51 <msmith> ianh: on nary, I understand that a second doc describing nary data types will be produce to same quality as main spec
Ian Horrocks: on nary, I understand that a second doc describing nary data types will be produce to same quality as main spec ←
15:17:04 <msmith> ... on completion we will consider moving some into main spec
... on completion we will consider moving some into main spec ←
15:17:29 <msmith> ... based on use cases, implementation support, and specification of "how" to implement (boris' concern)
... based on use cases, implementation support, and specification of "how" to implement (boris' concern) ←
15:17:30 <Zakim> +??P69
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P69 ←
15:17:43 <uli> zakim, ??P69 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P69 is me ←
15:17:43 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
15:17:45 <msmith> ekw: "how" is not in spec, correct?
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: "how" is not in spec, correct? ←
15:17:49 <msmith> ianh: correct
Ian Horrocks: correct ←
15:17:58 <bparsia> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Linear_%28In%29Equations_in_OWL
Bijan Parsia: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Linear_%28In%29Equations_in_OWL ←
15:18:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:18:16 <msmith> ianh: everyone agrees.
Ian Horrocks: everyone agrees. ←
15:18:19 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
15:18:19 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
15:19:03 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
15:19:03 <Zakim> bparsia was already muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was already muted, bparsia ←
15:19:07 <msmith> omit: topic: owl full
15:19:07 <msmith> topic: OWL-R Issue-116
15:19:16 <msmith> ianh: revisit "axiomatic triples" from yesterday
Ian Horrocks: revisit "axiomatic triples" from yesterday ←
15:20:06 <msmith> ... there is a proposal to resolve ISSUE-116, by saying OWL-R should includes rules for axiomatic triples
... there is a proposal to resolve ISSUE-116, by saying OWL-R should includes rules for axiomatic triples ←
15:20:32 <msmith> m_schnei: we must separate triples from RDFS and those from OWLR
Michael Schneider: we must separate triples from RDFS and those from OWLR ←
15:20:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:20:59 <msmith> ... I think the whole issue was about the "additional" stuff (not the RDFS axiomatic triples)
... I think the whole issue was about the "additional" stuff (not the RDFS axiomatic triples) ←
15:21:26 <Zakim> +dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm ←
15:21:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:22:26 <msmith> alanr: we intend to try to accommodate such axiomatic triples, if you produce them
Alan Ruttenberg: we intend to try to accommodate such axiomatic triples, if you produce them ←
15:22:51 <msmith> ianh: axiomatic triples are the RDFS guys, I suggest making a new issue that says m_schnei wants to extend the ruleset
Ian Horrocks: axiomatic triples are the RDFS guys, I suggest making a new issue that says m_schnei wants to extend the ruleset ←
15:23:09 <msmith> m_schnei: fine with me. I will talk with Ivan, I believe this was his intention
Michael Schneider: fine with me. I will talk with Ivan, I believe this was his intention ←
15:23:24 <msmith> ... this other set of axiomatic triples must be in anyway
... this other set of axiomatic triples must be in anyway ←
15:24:13 <msmith> alanr: there is a proposal that OWL-R is an extension of RDFS, but in order to be true, it must match where?
Alan Ruttenberg: there is a proposal that OWL-R is an extension of RDFS, but in order to be true, it must match where? ←
15:24:32 <msmith> ianh: proposal that we extend ruleset with axiomatic triples with RDFS
Ian Horrocks: proposal that we extend ruleset with axiomatic triples with RDFS ←
15:24:55 <msmith> ... that is what I understand from this issue
... that is what I understand from this issue ←
15:25:26 <msmith> ... lets resolve this ISSUE-116 based on this understanding, then open another issue with more clear difference in interpretation
... lets resolve this ISSUE-116 based on this understanding, then open another issue with more clear difference in interpretation ←
15:25:38 <msmith> m_schnei: example from issue tracker
Michael Schneider: example from issue tracker ←
15:26:37 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:26:52 <msmith> pfps: is triple from example true or false in OWL-R
Peter Patel-Schneider: is triple from example true or false in OWL-R ←
15:27:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:27:44 <msmith> m_schnei: no, because rdf:Property isn't in OWL-R DL
Michael Schneider: no, because rdf:Property isn't in OWL-R DL ←
15:28:26 <msmith> pfps: you're saying its true in OWL 1.0 full semantics?
Peter Patel-Schneider: you're saying its true in OWL 1.0 full semantics? ←
15:28:30 <msmith> m_schnei: yes
Michael Schneider: yes ←
15:28:40 <msmith> pfps: in OWL 1.0 DL?
Peter Patel-Schneider: in OWL 1.0 DL? ←
15:28:49 <msmith> m_schnei: no, rdf:Property isn't there
Michael Schneider: no, rdf:Property isn't there ←
15:28:59 <msmith> pfps: if you do the reverse mapping?
Peter Patel-Schneider: if you do the reverse mapping? ←
15:29:03 <msmith> ... I believe so
... I believe so ←
15:29:15 <IanH> ?
Ian Horrocks: ? ←
15:29:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:29:21 <msmith> pfps: therefore it is in OWL-R, therefore we don't need another change
Peter Patel-Schneider: therefore it is in OWL-R, therefore we don't need another change ←
15:29:42 <msmith> alanr: then is the rule implementation sufficient?
Alan Ruttenberg: then is the rule implementation sufficient? ←
15:29:49 <msmith> ... that sounds like the question?
... that sounds like the question? ←
15:31:02 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:31:14 <msmith> m_schnei: if we make OWL-R rules "catch-up" with the semantics of the DL part....(sidetracked)
Michael Schneider: if we make OWL-R rules "catch-up" with the semantics of the DL part....(sidetracked) ←
15:32:03 <msmith> omit: action schnei to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify
15:32:03 <trackbot> omit: Sorry, couldn't find user - schnei
15:32:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:32:52 <bmotik> ACTION: bmotik2 to Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec
ACTION: bmotik2 to Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec ←
15:32:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-177 - Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec [on Boris Motik - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-177 - Enact the resolution of ISSUE-126 (datatype system) in the spec [on Boris Motik - due 2008-08-05]. ←
15:32:52 <msmith> ACTION: schneider to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify
ACTION: schneider to clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify ←
15:32:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-178 - Clarify what ISSUE-116 is about, considering splitting to clarify [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
15:33:07 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:33:44 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
15:33:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted), ??P68, uli (muted), dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia (muted), ??P68, uli (muted), dlm ←
15:33:46 <Zakim> On IRC I see dlm, vipul, baojie, cgi-irc, Zhe, jar, Achille, m_schnei, bmotik, ekw, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see dlm, vipul, baojie, cgi-irc, Zhe, jar, Achille, m_schnei, bmotik, ekw, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, uli, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
15:33:48 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
15:34:02 <msmith> omit: scribe note previous topic was OWL-R issue
15:34:09 <msmith> topic: OWL Full
15:34:48 <uli> zakim, ??P69 is christine
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P69 is christine ←
15:34:48 <Zakim> I already had ??P69 as uli, uli
Zakim IRC Bot: I already had ??P69 as uli, uli ←
15:34:56 <uli> zakim, ??P68 is christine
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P68 is christine ←
15:34:56 <Zakim> +christine; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +christine; got it ←
15:35:15 <msmith> m_schnei: current state - the semantics are within a wiki page
Michael Schneider: current state - the semantics are within a wiki page ←
15:35:25 <msmith> .... I have started building an editor's draft
.... I have started building an editor's draft ←
15:35:46 <msmith> ... design principle to be close to existing OWL Full draft with minor changes
... design principle to be close to existing OWL Full draft with minor changes ←
15:36:15 <IanH> Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF_Semantics
Ian Horrocks: Looking at: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF_Semantics ←
15:36:20 <msmith> ... mostly many tables that say "if you have something on left, you get thing on right"
... mostly many tables that say "if you have something on left, you get thing on right" ←
15:36:41 <msmith> ... current state is not all tables are complete
... current state is not all tables are complete ←
15:36:48 <msmith> ... but this is a matter of transfer
... but this is a matter of transfer ←
15:36:55 <sandro> m_schnei seems to be projecting http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullDraft
Sandro Hawke: m_schnei seems to be projecting http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/FullDraft ←
15:37:09 <msmith> ... 2 issues
... 2 issues ←
15:37:17 <msmith> ... 1: imports in OWL Full
... 1: imports in OWL Full ←
15:37:28 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
15:37:29 <msmith> ianh: what's the issue with imports?
Ian Horrocks: what's the issue with imports? ←
15:37:51 <msmith> ... I thought it was logically clear
... I thought it was logically clear ←
15:38:04 <msmith> m_schnei: there are a few things from OWL 1 Full that are not good
Michael Schneider: there are a few things from OWL 1 Full that are not good ←
15:38:18 <msmith> ... e.g., reference to RDF/XML document directly
... e.g., reference to RDF/XML document directly ←
15:38:34 <msmith> ... I'd prefer something closer to model theoretic semantics
... I'd prefer something closer to model theoretic semantics ←
15:39:13 <msmith> ... 1a: if URI in owl:import some ontology ... produces a bnode
... 1a: if URI in owl:import some ontology ... produces a bnode ←
15:39:43 <msmith> ianh: can't we just do same as previous imports discussion
Ian Horrocks: can't we just do same as previous imports discussion ←
15:40:00 <msmith> m_schnei: no, because triple are triples in OWL Full
Michael Schneider: no, because triple are triples in OWL Full ←
15:40:09 <msmith> pfps: I don't see any issue to fix
Peter Patel-Schneider: I don't see any issue to fix ←
15:40:35 <msmith> pfps: gathering is not part of imports
Peter Patel-Schneider: gathering is not part of imports ←
15:40:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:40:44 <msmith> m_schnei: yes, that's what I'd like
Michael Schneider: yes, that's what I'd like ←
15:41:05 <msmith> ... original definition had way too much about processing, etc.
... original definition had way too much about processing, etc. ←
15:41:17 <msmith> ianh: so you want something cleaner than OWL 1 spec
Ian Horrocks: so you want something cleaner than OWL 1 spec ←
15:41:21 <msmith> ... excellent!
... excellent! ←
15:41:35 <msmith> alanr: we all agree, yes. so recorded
Alan Ruttenberg: we all agree, yes. so recorded ←
15:42:02 <msmith> omit: scribe note, previous 2: was 1a:
15:42:32 <msmith> schnei: 2: there will be some deviation from OWL 1 full regarding relationship between Full and DL
Michael Schneider: 2: there will be some deviation from OWL 1 full regarding relationship between Full and DL ←
15:42:47 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:42:47 <msmith> ... this is yet to be written
... this is yet to be written ←
15:43:19 <msmith> alanr: this will not block first public working draft
Alan Ruttenberg: this will not block first public working draft ←
15:43:31 <msmith> m_schnei: it will be done in 3 weeks
Michael Schneider: it will be done in 3 weeks ←
15:43:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:43:39 <msmith> alanr: would we prefer to freeze it now
Alan Ruttenberg: would we prefer to freeze it now ←
15:43:50 <msmith> ... for review time
... for review time ←
15:44:01 <bparsia> Why do we need a review?
Bijan Parsia: Why do we need a review? ←
15:44:04 <msmith> ianh: who are the reviewers? pfps you are volunteered
Ian Horrocks: who are the reviewers? pfps you are volunteered ←
15:45:08 <msmith> pfps: if i get by aug 20, i can comment by end of that week
Peter Patel-Schneider: if i get by aug 20, i can comment by end of that week ←
15:45:20 <msmith> alanr: to be clear, pfps will be hurdle to publish
Alan Ruttenberg: to be clear, pfps will be hurdle to publish ←
15:45:28 <sandro> trackbot, reload
Sandro Hawke: trackbot, reload ←
15:45:49 <msmith> pfps: if by aug 19th, will be done by aug 22
Peter Patel-Schneider: if by aug 19th, will be done by aug 22 ←
15:45:59 <bparsia> review notes!
Bijan Parsia: review notes! ←
15:46:03 <msmith> alanr: target will be editor notes or issues?
Alan Ruttenberg: target will be editor notes or issues? ←
15:46:08 <bparsia> Not editors notes
Bijan Parsia: Not editors notes ←
15:46:30 <msmith> pfps: I will just fix some things
Peter Patel-Schneider: I will just fix some things ←
15:46:42 <msmith> ... reviewer notes for other things
... reviewer notes for other things ←
15:47:00 <bparsia> {{Review|~~~~ }}
Bijan Parsia: {{Review|~~~~ }} ←
15:47:30 <msmith> m_schnei: I'd like a reviewer that is not familiar with OWL full details
Michael Schneider: I'd like a reviewer that is not familiar with OWL full details ←
15:47:54 <msmith> omit: s/non-OWL/non-OWL Full details/
15:48:04 <msmith> zhe: I will review on same timespan as pfps
Zhe Wu: I will review on same timespan as pfps ←
15:48:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:48:45 <msmith> m_schnei: just look, no particular focus areas
Michael Schneider: just look, no particular focus areas ←
15:50:00 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:50:08 <msmith> alanr: is this a vote to publish under some conditions
Alan Ruttenberg: is this a vote to publish under some conditions ←
15:50:15 <msmith> ianh: defer that a sec
Ian Horrocks: defer that a sec ←
15:50:16 <msmith> ianh: several outstanding owl full issues
Ian Horrocks: several outstanding owl full issues ←
15:50:26 <msmith> ... e.g., ISSUE-119
15:50:33 <msmith> ... is that still a problem
... is that still a problem ←
15:51:02 <msmith> m_schnei: this is closed if we're ok with previously stated deviation from OWL 1
Michael Schneider: this is closed if we're ok with previously stated deviation from OWL 1 ←
15:51:23 <msmith> ianh: part of review is to check that ISSUE-119 is resolved
Ian Horrocks: part of review is to check that ISSUE-119 is resolved ←
15:51:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:51:51 <msmith> alanr: it has been suggested that new semantics are provably coherent. are they?
Alan Ruttenberg: it has been suggested that new semantics are provably coherent. are they? ←
15:52:11 <msmith> m_schnei: there's a good chance. not aiming to do that in time of this wg
Michael Schneider: there's a good chance. not aiming to do that in time of this wg ←
15:52:43 <msmith> ianh: vote to delegate publish decision to reviewers?
Ian Horrocks: vote to delegate publish decision to reviewers? ←
15:52:57 <msmith> alanr: name should be OWL Full Semantics
Alan Ruttenberg: name should be OWL Full Semantics ←
15:54:45 <msmith> alanr: I like "semantics of owl full" and "semantics of owl dl"
Alan Ruttenberg: I like "semantics of owl full" and "semantics of owl dl" ←
15:55:04 <msmith> ianh: we just need some tag for reference
Ian Horrocks: we just need some tag for reference ←
15:55:39 <msmith> ... I prefer some variant of Michael's initial name, something including RDF
... I prefer some variant of Michael's initial name, something including RDF ←
15:55:12 <jar> "owl rdf"?
Jonathan Rees: "owl rdf"? ←
15:55:27 <m_schnei> I have changed the name of the Editior's Draft from "RDF Semantics" to "Full Semantics"
Michael Schneider: I have changed the name of the Editior's Draft from "RDF Semantics" to "Full Semantics" ←
15:55:43 <m_schnei> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full_Semantics
Michael Schneider: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Full_Semantics ←
15:55:50 <msmith> ianh: RDF compatible semantics
Ian Horrocks: RDF compatible semantics ←
15:56:02 <uli> -1 (to rdf since it would imply that the other is incompatible)
Uli Sattler: -1 (to rdf since it would imply that the other is incompatible) ←
15:56:21 <uli> ..as in incompatible in a strong sense
Uli Sattler: ..as in incompatible in a strong sense ←
15:56:34 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:56:36 <msmith> sandro: +1 to uli
Sandro Hawke: +1 to uli ←
15:56:39 <alanr> ok
Alan Ruttenberg: ok ←
15:56:47 <uli> 'rdf-based semantics'
Uli Sattler: 'rdf-based semantics' ←
15:57:01 <msmith> ianh: +1 to uli
Ian Horrocks: +1 to uli ←
15:57:02 <sandro> +1 RDF-Based Semantics
Sandro Hawke: +1 RDF-Based Semantics ←
15:57:19 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
15:57:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
15:57:48 <ekw> we wanted short names
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: we wanted short names ←
15:58:32 <msmith> m_schnei: what's new is the new features of OWL
Michael Schneider: what's new is the new features of OWL ←
15:58:54 <msmith> msmith: I don't think what's new should be repeated across docs
Michael Smith: I don't think what's new should be repeated across docs ←
15:59:16 <msmith> ianh: we mean what's new with OWL Full semantics, e.g., this thing about comprehension principles
Ian Horrocks: we mean what's new with OWL Full semantics, e.g., this thing about comprehension principles ←
15:59:59 <msmith> ... the previous "sledge-hammer" approach made it problematic to establish consistency
... the previous "sledge-hammer" approach made it problematic to establish consistency ←
15:59:58 <sandro> PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe.
PROPOSED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe. ←
16:00:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:00:21 <bmotik> +1 Oxford
Boris Motik: +1 Oxford ←
16:00:25 <pfps> +1 Bell Labs
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 Bell Labs ←
16:00:29 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
16:00:35 <Zhe> +1ORACLE
16:00:35 <baojie> 0
16:00:38 <sandro> +1 W3C
Sandro Hawke: +1 W3C ←
16:00:45 <m_schnei> +1 (FZI)
Michael Schneider: +1 (FZI) ←
16:00:47 <msmith> msmith: +1
Michael Smith: +1 ←
16:00:54 <Achille> +1 IBM
Achille Fokoue: +1 IBM ←
16:01:40 <sandro> ACTION: Jie to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: Jie to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:01:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-179 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:01:50 <uli> +1 manchester
Uli Sattler: +1 manchester ←
16:02:02 <sandro> ACTION: pfps to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: pfps to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:02 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
16:02:03 <ekw> +1 NIST
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: +1 NIST ←
16:02:09 <sandro> ACTION: peter to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: peter to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:10 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - peter ←
16:02:10 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. ppatelsc, phaase) ←
16:02:18 <Elisa> +1 Sandpiper
Elisa Kendall: +1 Sandpiper ←
16:02:20 <sandro> ACTION: ppatelsc to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: ppatelsc to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-180 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-180 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:02:25 <sandro> ACTION: zhe to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22.
ACTION: zhe to review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. ←
16:02:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-181 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-181 - Review RDF-Based Semantics. Document to be frozen Aug 19, review by Aug 22. [on Zhe Wu - due 2008-08-05]. ←
16:02:37 <sandro> RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe.
RESOLVED: Publish http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/RDF-Based_Semantics as a First Public Working Draft around Sept 1, after some more editorial changes, pending review and approval from PFPS and Zhe. ←
16:02:54 <msmith> ianh: topic done, thank you m_schnei
Ian Horrocks: topic done, thank you m_schnei ←
16:03:58 <msmith> topic: MOF (ISSUE-134)
Summary: Slides archived at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0440.html
16:03:58 <msmith> summary: Slides archived at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-owl-wg/2008Jul/0440.html
16:04:24 <msmith> omit: pha: (presenting slides)
16:05:19 <msmith> omit: slides will go to list or wiki soon
16:05:29 <uli> omit: I didn't crumble!
16:05:47 <uli> omit: thanks, Mike
16:05:48 <IanH> Boris will email slides to the list
Ian Horrocks: Boris will email slides to the list ←
16:05:48 <IanH> omit: Boris will emial slides to the list
16:06:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:06:46 <IanH> omit: s/emial/email/
16:07:00 <msmith> vipul: as visual syntax UML is useful, but it comes with its own semantics. can you provide guidance
Vipul Kashyap: as visual syntax UML is useful, but it comes with its own semantics. can you provide guidance ←
16:07:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:07:45 <msmith> pha: uml is used on different levels. I'm saying only as visual syntax. having diagram in UML doesn't specify semantics, impact OWL semantics
Peter Haase: uml is used on different levels. I'm saying only as visual syntax. having diagram in UML doesn't specify semantics, impact OWL semantics ←
16:08:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:09:43 <msmith> bmotik: example of confusion in OWL 1 - lack of rqmt that about disjoint entities
Boris Motik: example of confusion in OWL 1 - lack of rqmt that about disjoint entities ←
16:09:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:09:58 <msmith> ... example, what it means to declare an entity
... example, what it means to declare an entity ←
16:10:25 <msmith> ekw: so structural syntax is what clarifies, not the metamodel
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: so structural syntax is what clarifies, not the metamodel ←
16:10:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:10:39 <msmith> bmotik: this bumps up the precision to the next level
Boris Motik: this bumps up the precision to the next level ←
16:11:07 <bparsia> Matthew Horridge (OWL API author) really valued the current diagrams.
Bijan Parsia: Matthew Horridge (OWL API author) really valued the current diagrams. ←
16:11:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:12:03 <msmith> vipul: this is using metaclass from UML?
Vipul Kashyap: this is using metaclass from UML? ←
16:12:08 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:12:18 <msmith> pha: we're using MOF, a constrained form of UML
Peter Haase: we're using MOF, a constrained form of UML ←
16:12:23 <msmith> ekw: +1 to pha
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: +1 to pha ←
16:13:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:13:36 <msmith> ianh: proposal is to claim consistency and provide MOF
Ian Horrocks: proposal is to claim consistency and provide MOF ←
16:13:45 <bparsia> q+ to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec ←
16:14:13 <msmith> bmotik: I would switch to same tool as pha to be certain consistency is maintained
Boris Motik: I would switch to same tool as pha to be certain consistency is maintained ←
16:14:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:14:34 <IanH> I do see you Bijan
Ian Horrocks: I do see you Bijan ←
16:14:57 <bparsia> I want to wait until he's done anyway
Bijan Parsia: I want to wait until he's done anyway ←
16:14:59 <bparsia> No worries
Bijan Parsia: No worries ←
16:15:10 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
16:15:11 <Zakim> bparsia, you wanted to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia, you wanted to ask about incorporating the MOF into the structural spec ←
16:15:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:15:48 <msmith> bijan: I like a lot of what I hear. particularly machine processable definition of non-structural restrictions
Bijan Parsia: I like a lot of what I hear. particularly machine processable definition of non-structural restrictions ←
16:16:02 <msmith> ... do I understand that the machine readable for would be in the structural spec
... do I understand that the machine readable for would be in the structural spec ←
16:16:02 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:16:02 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:16:07 <msmith> bmotik: yes
Boris Motik: yes ←
16:16:10 <bparsia> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
16:16:21 <msmith> ianh: only change to structual spec would be diagrams
Ian Horrocks: only change to structual spec would be diagrams ←
16:16:47 <msmith> ... where machine readable model goes is another issue
... where machine readable model goes is another issue ←
16:16:24 <bparsia> +1 to appendix
Bijan Parsia: +1 to appendix ←
16:16:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:16:58 <msmith> alanr: this is a single ontology or imports closure?
Alan Ruttenberg: this is a single ontology or imports closure? ←
16:17:12 <msmith> bmotik: neither, this is a description of the structural of all ontologies
Boris Motik: neither, this is a description of the structural of all ontologies ←
16:17:17 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:17:23 <bparsia> This could help with teh accessibility of the diagrams
Bijan Parsia: This could help with teh accessibility of the diagrams ←
16:17:37 <msmith> alanr: you mentioned something about integrity constraints on declarations, this is only in imports closure
Alan Ruttenberg: you mentioned something about integrity constraints on declarations, this is only in imports closure ←
16:17:54 <msmith> bmotik: so far this hasn't been specified, we'd have to see if it was possible with OCL
Boris Motik: so far this hasn't been specified, we'd have to see if it was possible with OCL ←
16:18:10 <msmith> ... same with non-structural constraints
... same with non-structural constraints ←
16:18:15 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:18:22 <msmith> ... simpler things would be captured
... simpler things would be captured ←
16:18:26 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:18:47 <msmith> ekw: its a model of OWL, the language
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Unknown ekw: its a model of OWL, the language ←
16:18:56 <msmith> alanr: of the syntax of the language?
Alan Ruttenberg: of the syntax of the language? ←
16:19:00 <msmith> bmotik: yes
Boris Motik: yes ←
16:19:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:19:29 <msmith> ianh: not really different than current diagrams, just with an XML representation
Ian Horrocks: not really different than current diagrams, just with an XML representation ←
16:19:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:19:47 <msmith> ekw: not quite, its all of those diagrams in a package, modeled, with additional constraints
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Unknown ekw: not quite, its all of those diagrams in a package, modeled, with additional constraints ←
16:20:01 <msmith> alanr: it would be great to have a machine readable normative version of OWL language
Alan Ruttenberg: it would be great to have a machine readable normative version of OWL language ←
16:20:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:20:25 <msmith> ... I'm concerned we'll have several things like this. structural syntax, rdf doc, xml doc, etc.
... I'm concerned we'll have several things like this. structural syntax, rdf doc, xml doc, etc. ←
16:20:49 <msmith> ... I'd like something to leverage this to check the consistency of all these bits
... I'd like something to leverage this to check the consistency of all these bits ←
16:21:10 <msmith> ... absent that, I worry that this additional work that uses limited resources
... absent that, I worry that this additional work that uses limited resources ←
16:20:38 <Elisa> There are also additional tools we can use to validate the abstract syntax, and some rules we can apply for naming of things in an abstract syntax, etc. that hopefully would have a positive impact on the language itself
Elisa Kendall: There are also additional tools we can use to validate the abstract syntax, and some rules we can apply for naming of things in an abstract syntax, etc. that hopefully would have a positive impact on the language itself ←
16:21:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:21:55 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:21:58 <msmith> vipul: i think its a good idea.
Vipul Kashyap: i think its a good idea. ←
16:22:06 <msmith> bmotik: i don't think it requires a lot of resources
Boris Motik: i don't think it requires a lot of resources ←
16:22:18 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:22:24 <msmith> ... because pha already did it and the diagrams match
... because pha already did it and the diagrams match ←
16:22:38 <msmith> ... one could generate an XML syntax from it
... one could generate an XML syntax from it ←
16:22:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:22:59 <msmith> ... its a possibility
... its a possibility ←
16:23:15 <msmith> pfps: can you produce relaxng instead?
Peter Patel-Schneider: can you produce relaxng instead? ←
16:23:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:23:25 <msmith> pha: I'll look
Peter Haase: I'll look ←
16:24:13 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:24:22 <msmith> bmotik: if you have MOF metamodel of one language and another, you write transformation between the two
Boris Motik: if you have MOF metamodel of one language and another, you write transformation between the two ←
16:24:29 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:24:42 <msmith> alanr: relaxng might not have a MOF metamodel
Alan Ruttenberg: relaxng might not have a MOF metamodel ←
16:24:46 <bparsia> I wrote a script to go from fucntioanl script to relax-ng
Bijan Parsia: I wrote a script to go from fucntioanl script to relax-ng ←
16:24:51 <ekw> The transformation language that Boris mentioned is called MOF Queries, Views and Transformation (QVT)
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Unknown ekw: The transformation language that Boris mentioned is called MOF Queries, Views and Transformation (QVT) ←
16:25:00 <Elisa> this is one of the primary reasons why we developed the ODM metamodels for OWL 1 in the first place, fyi
Elisa Kendall: this is one of the primary reasons why we developed the ODM metamodels for OWL 1 in the first place, fyi ←
16:25:36 <msmith> ianh: I think alan likes MOF as normative, all others as non-normative
Ian Horrocks: I think alan likes MOF as normative, all others as non-normative ←
16:25:43 <msmith> ... any reason to be non-normative
... any reason to be non-normative ←
16:25:51 <msmith> bmotik: can you post xml schema to wiki
Boris Motik: can you post xml schema to wiki ←
16:25:57 <msmith> pha: yes
Peter Haase: yes ←
16:25:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:26:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:27:08 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
16:27:12 <msmith> msmith: this would make the burden for review higher
Michael Smith: this would make the burden for review higher ←
16:27:24 <Elisa> IBM RSA does have a publication capability so that you can publish an html version that can be "walked", with all of the model elements being alive
Elisa Kendall: IBM RSA does have a publication capability so that you can publish an html version that can be "walked", with all of the model elements being alive ←
16:27:25 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
16:27:25 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
16:27:26 <msmith> bmotik: you would have to install IBM rational architect
Boris Motik: you would have to install IBM rational architect ←
16:27:30 <msmith> pha: or other free tools
Peter Haase: or other free tools ←
16:27:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:27:36 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
16:27:44 <Zakim> -christine
Zakim IRC Bot: -christine ←
16:28:00 <Elisa> There is no need, in other words, for everyone to have IBM RSA in order to examine the MOF implementation
Elisa Kendall: There is no need, in other words, for everyone to have IBM RSA in order to examine the MOF implementation ←
16:28:13 <alanr> http://www.tucs.fi/publications/attachment.php?fname=TR606.pdf
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.tucs.fi/publications/attachment.php?fname=TR606.pdf ←
16:28:24 <alanr> In this paper, we study the relation between
Alan Ruttenberg: In this paper, we study the relation between ←
16:28:25 <alanr> context-free (Backus-Naur Form) grammars and Meta Object Facility metamodels
Alan Ruttenberg: context-free (Backus-Naur Form) grammars and Meta Object Facility metamodels ←
16:28:25 <alanr> and identify when and how we can convert a grammar to a metamodel and a meta-
Alan Ruttenberg: and identify when and how we can convert a grammar to a metamodel and a meta- ←
16:28:25 <alanr> model to a grammar. An example of this mapping for a subset of Java is shown
Alan Ruttenberg: model to a grammar. An example of this mapping for a subset of Java is shown ←
16:28:38 <msmith> bparsia: even if we have other constraints in MOF, not all constraints will be there.
Bijan Parsia: even if we have other constraints in MOF, not all constraints will be there. ←
16:28:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:28:53 <msmith> ... and down-translation to other syntaxes will probably lose some restrictions
... and down-translation to other syntaxes will probably lose some restrictions ←
16:29:00 <ekw> It constraints are expressed as OCL in the MOF model then there would be some extra review burden
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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: If constraints are expressed as OCL in the MOF model then there would be some extra review burden ←
16:29:07 <msmith> bmotik: some things are easier written in english
Boris Motik: some things are easier written in english ←
16:29:09 <ekw> s/It/If/
16:29:17 <msmith> alanr: but comparison is work
Alan Ruttenberg: but comparison is work ←
16:30:05 <msmith> bmotik: review would be only slightly more than now
Boris Motik: review would be only slightly more than now ←
16:30:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:30:19 <msmith> alanr: diagrams are noise, I look at documents and frammar
Alan Ruttenberg: diagrams are noise, I look at documents and frammar ←
16:30:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:30:35 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:30:35 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:31:05 <bparsia> I don't mind a normative appendix which is: the MOF + a list of addtional constraints in english
Bijan Parsia: I don't mind a normative appendix which is: the MOF + a list of addtional constraints in english ←
16:31:17 <msmith> msmith: what is normative, the MOF or the structural spec document?
Michael Smith: what is normative, the MOF or the structural spec document? ←
16:31:27 <bparsia> As I understand it, the diagrams are normative
Bijan Parsia: As I understand it, the diagrams are normative ←
16:31:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:31:42 <msmith> ekw: this doesn't change things because the diagrams are in the normative structural spec
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Unknown ekw: this doesn't change things because the diagrams are in the normative structural spec ←
16:32:01 <msmith> alanr: we must say if/when there is an error which document is normative
Alan Ruttenberg: we must say if/when there is an error which document is normative ←
16:32:19 <msmith> ... I assume the winner will be the text
... I assume the winner will be the text ←
16:32:27 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:32:48 <msmith> ... this is separate from MOF metamodel to the extent that it competes for limited resources
... this is separate from MOF metamodel to the extent that it competes for limited resources ←
16:33:03 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:33:19 <msmith> bmotik: diagrams are in spec now (as normative)
Boris Motik: diagrams are in spec now (as normative) ←
16:33:47 <msmith> ... diagrams specify normative structure
... diagrams specify normative structure ←
16:33:56 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:34:06 <msmith> ... functional style spec is different because we wanted it to be
... functional style spec is different because we wanted it to be ←
16:34:27 <msmith> pfps: any document has duplication, why try to remove this type of duplication
Peter Patel-Schneider: any document has duplication, why try to remove this type of duplication ←
16:34:35 <Elisa> what we did for common logic, to assist in addressing this, was to include the ebnf on every diagram in the ODM
Elisa Kendall: what we did for common logic, to assist in addressing this, was to include the ebnf on every diagram in the ODM ←
16:34:45 <msmith> alanr: that the diagrams and the syntax are different is of concern
Alan Ruttenberg: that the diagrams and the syntax are different is of concern ←
16:34:56 <Elisa> we were able to show a 1-1 correspondence between the ebnf and the MOF metamodel
Elisa Kendall: we were able to show a 1-1 correspondence between the ebnf and the MOF metamodel ←
16:35:10 <msmith> m_schnei: diagrams and bnf are complementary
Michael Schneider: diagrams and bnf are complementary ←
16:36:02 <msmith> ... a 1:1 between a MOF and bnf is a surprise to me
... a 1:1 between a MOF and bnf is a surprise to me ←
16:36:04 <msmith> ianh: me too
Ian Horrocks: me too ←
16:36:16 <ekw> elisa - do you mean the different representations in the CL spec were isomorphic?
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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: elisa - do you mean the different representations in the CL spec were isomorphic? ←
16:36:23 <sandro> (This must be a constrained form of BNF, eg where Order Never Matters.)
Sandro Hawke: (This must be a constrained form of BNF, eg where Order Never Matters.) ←
16:36:24 <msmith> bmotik: you want MOF precisely so you can avoid ordering issues
Boris Motik: you want MOF precisely so you can avoid ordering issues ←
16:36:36 <bparsia> Abstract syntax
Bijan Parsia: Abstract syntax ←
16:36:38 <bparsia> Not concrete syntax
Bijan Parsia: Not concrete syntax ←
16:36:45 <msmith> alanr: but syntax is about order
Alan Ruttenberg: but syntax is about order ←
16:37:01 <Elisa> yes, but also we were able to be very precise because the language was simple, and order was less important aside from parameters for certain expressions
Elisa Kendall: yes, but also we were able to be very precise because the language was simple, and order was less important aside from parameters for certain expressions ←
16:37:06 <msmith> sandro: RIF went down the unified mgmt path, but abandoned it as too much work
Sandro Hawke: RIF went down the unified mgmt path, but abandoned it as too much work ←
16:37:36 <uli> q+
Uli Sattler: q+ ←
16:37:42 <msmith> ... this is a parallelizable problem, someone can be responsible for making the MOF track
... this is a parallelizable problem, someone can be responsible for making the MOF track ←
16:37:54 <msmith> ianh: we already have the MOF model, informally and as diagrams
Ian Horrocks: we already have the MOF model, informally and as diagrams ←
16:39:02 <msmith> ... the only change is a serialization that can be used directly, not just as diagrams
... the only change is a serialization that can be used directly, not just as diagrams ←
16:38:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:38:31 <bparsia> That's my understanding
Bijan Parsia: That's my understanding ←
16:38:40 <uli> zakim, ack me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ack me ←
16:38:40 <Zakim> unmuting uli
Zakim IRC Bot: unmuting uli ←
16:38:42 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue ←
16:38:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:38:51 <bparsia> Not "automatically", but Matthew has much praised the diagrams
Bijan Parsia: Not "automatically", but Matthew has much praised the diagrams ←
16:38:59 <alanr> I am so on your side!
Alan Ruttenberg: I am so on your side! ←
16:39:03 <alanr> I want them to be normative
Alan Ruttenberg: I want them to be normative ←
16:39:05 <Elisa> one can actually generate the api automatically from the MOF model, in fact
Elisa Kendall: one can actually generate the api automatically from the MOF model, in fact ←
16:39:15 <ekw> So there is a benefit to goal with the burden
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Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: So there is a benefit to goal with the burden ←
16:39:26 <msmith> uli: many people have found MOF to be very useful
Uli Sattler: many people have found MOF to be very useful ←
16:39:37 <msmith> alanr: I agree with Uli
Alan Ruttenberg: I agree with Uli ←
16:39:44 <msmith> ianh: what about normativity?
Ian Horrocks: what about normativity? ←
16:39:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:39:55 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
16:39:55 <Zakim> uli should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: uli should now be muted ←
16:40:16 <Elisa> in order to standardize the mof metamodel, there is actually more work that would need to be done to document the contents properly, validate it, etc., fyi
Elisa Kendall: in order to standardize the mof metamodel, there is actually more work that would need to be done to document the contents properly, validate it, etc., fyi ←
16:40:28 <msmith> bmotik: I would like spec to say something like structure is described in these diagrams, which matches this MOF, plus some additional constraints
Boris Motik: I would like spec to say something like structure is described in these diagrams, which matches this MOF, plus some additional constraints ←
16:40:34 <msmith> ... that's the normative part
... that's the normative part ←
16:40:56 <msmith> ... the structural syntax would have a translation from the MOF
... the structural syntax would have a translation from the MOF ←
16:40:59 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:41:15 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
16:41:18 <msmith> ... and if necessary, the structural syntax would be subordinate
... and if necessary, the structural syntax would be subordinate ←
16:41:27 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:41:33 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
16:41:51 <msmith> alanr: I would say document is normative
Alan Ruttenberg: I would say document is normative ←
16:42:07 <Elisa> there are conventions at OMG for documenting these things, including the model files as part of the normative specification, and so forth, which you would want to provide if you were to go this route...
Elisa Kendall: there are conventions at OMG for documenting these things, including the model files as part of the normative specification, and so forth, which you would want to provide if you were to go this route... ←
16:42:41 <msmith> alanr: the normative description would be XML description of MOF metamodel plus additional restrictions that can't be expressed in that model, then provide a syntax for providing text from the model
Alan Ruttenberg: the normative description would be XML description of MOF metamodel plus additional restrictions that can't be expressed in that model, then provide a syntax for providing text from the model ←
16:42:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:42:57 <Elisa> we could entertain working together with the OMG ontology PSIG, since Evan and I co-chair that group, to support this, but I'm not sure we can support the publication timeline
Elisa Kendall: we could entertain working together with the OMG ontology PSIG, since Evan and I co-chair that group, to support this, but I'm not sure we can support the publication timeline ←
16:43:05 <msmith> bmotik: you can make diagrams normative, because MOF has a standard visual syntax
Boris Motik: you can make diagrams normative, because MOF has a standard visual syntax ←
16:43:21 <alanr> diagrams *could* be normative. I just don't want them to be.
Alan Ruttenberg: diagrams *could* be normative. I just don't want them to be. ←
16:43:40 <msmith> bmotik: regarding generation, I don't think you can generate the functional syntax because it is slightly different (e.g., not fully typed)
Boris Motik: regarding generation, I don't think you can generate the functional syntax because it is slightly different (e.g., not fully typed) ←
16:43:55 <msmith> ... normative part is translation
... normative part is translation ←
16:44:35 <msmith> ... say something like and ontology can be serialized in functional syntax and back to structural form without and structural changes
... say something like and ontology can be serialized in functional syntax and back to structural form without and structural changes ←
16:43:50 <bparsia> How about replacing the functional syntax with xml syntax?
Bijan Parsia: How about replacing the functional syntax with xml syntax? ←
16:44:04 <bparsia> One fewer syntax, closer alignment, more W3Cy
Bijan Parsia: One fewer syntax, closer alignment, more W3Cy ←
16:44:17 <Elisa> the XMI may be more verbose than you would want ...
Elisa Kendall: the XMI may be more verbose than you would want ... ←
16:44:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:45:04 <msmith> alanr: we agree on utility, we need to think about presentation to users
Alan Ruttenberg: we agree on utility, we need to think about presentation to users ←
16:45:24 <alanr> is there a way to annotate these models?
Alan Ruttenberg: is there a way to annotate these models? ←
16:45:46 <msmith> elisa: there is more documentation that goes with metamodel and needs to be very precise
Elisa Kendall: there is more documentation that goes with metamodel and needs to be very precise ←
16:45:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:45:55 <msmith> ... text has very specific form and is normative
... text has very specific form and is normative ←
16:45:55 <uli> zakim, mute me
Uli Sattler: zakim, mute me ←
16:45:55 <Zakim> uli was already muted, uli
Zakim IRC Bot: uli was already muted, uli ←
16:46:07 <msmith> ... in addition to XMI, etc.
... in addition to XMI, etc. ←
16:46:52 <msmith> ... what Elisa, Evan have suggested to pha is that much of this additional work happen at OMG, so that it doesn't need to fit in W3 timeline
... what Elisa, Evan have suggested to pha is that much of this additional work happen at OMG, so that it doesn't need to fit in W3 timeline ←
16:48:07 <msmith> ... synchronization not an issue. I caution that there is much additional work that needs to be done to make it as useful as we'd like
... synchronization not an issue. I caution that there is much additional work that needs to be done to make it as useful as we'd like ←
16:48:07 <msmith> omit: ... synchronization not an issue. I caution that there is much additional work that needs to be done to make it as useful as you'd like
16:46:20 <alanr> would seem that the MOF specification + MOF Metamodel would be sufficient for us
Alan Ruttenberg: would seem that the MOF specification + MOF Metamodel would be sufficient for us ←
16:47:09 <alanr> but there should be a clear advantage to having the work be part of our WG
Alan Ruttenberg: but there should be a clear advantage to having the work be part of our WG ←
16:47:14 <alanr> versus OMG work
Alan Ruttenberg: versus OMG work ←
16:47:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:48:14 <msmith> omit: s/you'd/we'd/
16:48:18 <msmith> pfps: what work
Peter Patel-Schneider: what work ←
16:48:31 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:48:47 <msmith> elisa: documentation, naming, validity, etc.
Elisa Kendall: documentation, naming, validity, etc. ←
16:49:07 <msmith> pfps: that's not work for us, that's work for OMG
Peter Patel-Schneider: that's not work for us, that's work for OMG ←
16:49:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:49:36 <msmith> ... if you want to add a bunch of additional information we don't need, that's something different
... if you want to add a bunch of additional information we don't need, that's something different ←
16:50:09 <msmith> alanr: everyone sleep on this issue
Alan Ruttenberg: everyone sleep on this issue ←
16:50:16 <msmith> ... we will revisit it
... we will revisit it ←
16:50:41 <msmith> topic: Structural Equivalence of Literals
16:50:47 <msmith> omit: s/literal/literals/
16:51:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:51:44 <msmith> bmotik: suggestion is to keep it as with rest of language. structurally equivalent if parts are equivalent. in this case parts are lexical form and datatype
Boris Motik: suggestion is to keep it as with rest of language. structurally equivalent if parts are equivalent. in this case parts are lexical form and datatype ←
16:52:19 <msmith> ... e.g., if you 2.0^^xsd:float you shouldn't change it to 2^^xsd:integer
... e.g., if you 2.0^^xsd:float you shouldn't change it to 2^^xsd:integer ←
16:52:29 <msmith> alanr: I don't want anything to change what I give it
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't want anything to change what I give it ←
16:52:36 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:53:04 <ekw> Process check: what is the new agenda?
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: Process check: what is the new agenda? ←
16:53:12 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:53:52 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
16:54:08 <msmith> bmotik: a tool may choose to replace a constant with an alternative constant for the same interpretation
Boris Motik: a tool may choose to replace a constant with an alternative constant for the same interpretation ←
16:54:15 <msmith> ianh: this surprises me
Ian Horrocks: this surprises me ←
16:54:21 <bparsia> RDF doesn't require this
Bijan Parsia: RDF doesn't require this ←
16:54:54 <msmith> msmith: example of structural changes allowed by current spec
Michael Smith: example of structural changes allowed by current spec ←
16:54:55 <bparsia> Indeed, having some normalization permitted is generally cited as desirable
Bijan Parsia: Indeed, having some normalization permitted is generally cited as desirable ←
16:55:47 <msmith> bmotik: this is to address whether it is a rqmt that tools don't change e.g., 2.3100 to 2.31
Boris Motik: this is to address whether it is a rqmt that tools don't change e.g., 2.3100 to 2.31 ←
16:55:54 <msmith> alanr: That should be a rqmt
Alan Ruttenberg: That should be a rqmt ←
16:56:00 <bparsia> I oppose this requriement
Bijan Parsia: I oppose this requriement ←
16:56:25 <msmith> bmotik: structural equivalence should be based on text and datatype
Boris Motik: structural equivalence should be based on text and datatype ←
16:56:36 <msmith> .... e.g., 2.0 is different from 2
.... e.g., 2.0 is different from 2 ←
16:56:28 <alanr> then say what structure equivalent is and handle all the cases.
Alan Ruttenberg: then say what structure equivalent is and handle all the cases. ←
16:57:00 <bparsia> The requirement to preserve lexical forms is very tool, audience, and circumstance dependant
Bijan Parsia: The requirement to preserve lexical forms is very tool, audience, and circumstance dependant ←
16:57:17 <bparsia> (I often like it, but it's really not universal.)
Bijan Parsia: (I often like it, but it's really not universal.) ←
16:57:31 <msmith> alanr: we define structural equivalence and that is all. we have no change. so recorded
Alan Ruttenberg: we define structural equivalence and that is all. we have no change. so recorded ←
16:57:34 <dlm> \so on logistics, what time should we call back in?
Deborah McGuinness: \so on logistics, what time should we call back in? ←
16:57:34 <uli> ...and I wouldn't be able to draw a line between 'structural equivalence' and 'semantics equivalence'
Uli Sattler: ...and I wouldn't be able to draw a line between 'structural equivalence' and 'semantics equivalence' ←
16:57:43 <msmith> break for lunch now
break for lunch now ←
16:57:52 <sandro> Topic: Lunch
16:58:00 <uli> bye for now
Uli Sattler: bye for now ←
16:58:10 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
16:58:10 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
16:58:11 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
16:59:21 <ekw> we will re-convene in an hour, 1st topic will be Quickstart
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: we will re-convene in an hour, 1st topic will be Quickstart ←
16:59:43 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
17:01:26 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
17:09:53 <Zakim> -bparsia
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia ←
17:47:55 <bparsia> 13:00 - 14:00 Lunch
(No events recorded for 38 minutes)
Bijan Parsia: 13:00 - 14:00 Lunch ←
17:47:56 <bparsia> 14:50 - 15:45
Bijan Parsia: 14:50 - 15:45 ←
17:57:58 <Zakim> +Elisa_Kendall
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +Elisa_Kendall ←
17:58:54 <Zakim> +dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm ←
18:00:10 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
18:00:18 <bparsia> zakim, ??p3 is me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ??p3 is me ←
18:00:18 <Zakim> +bparsia; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bparsia; got it ←
18:01:27 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:01:27 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:03:54 <IanH> ack bparsia
Ian Horrocks: ack bparsia ←
18:03:54 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:03:54 <alanr> bijan?
Alan Ruttenberg: bijan? ←
18:03:57 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
18:04:24 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:04:24 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:04:32 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:04:32 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:04:36 <IanH> scribenick: pha
(Scribe set to Peter Haase)
18:04:59 <pha> topic: quick reference
18:05:19 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:05:19 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:05:24 <IanH> ScribeNick: pha
18:05:50 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:05:50 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia (muted)
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia (muted) ←
18:05:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see ekw, m_schnei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ekw, m_schnei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
18:05:54 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
18:06:19 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Quick_Reference_Guide ←
18:07:03 <pha> elisa: snapshot to show where are headed
Elisa Kendall: snapshot to show where are headed ←
18:07:48 <bparsia> Syntax is the right place to link
Bijan Parsia: Syntax is the right place to link ←
18:07:48 <pha> ... section 3: 4 column approach, additional column with example
... section 3: 4 column approach, additional column with example ←
18:08:08 <pha> ... trying to get a sense whether this is the right approach
... trying to get a sense whether this is the right approach ←
18:08:51 <dlm> the plan is also to have a printable version somewhat along the lines of http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf
Deborah McGuinness: the plan is also to have a printable version somewhat along the lines of http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf ←
18:09:29 <pha> ... will need to point/link to the other documents, need tags in those
... will need to point/link to the other documents, need tags in those ←
18:09:53 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:10:33 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:11:05 <dlm> http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/#s2
Deborah McGuinness: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-owl-features-20040210/#s2 ←
18:11:32 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:11:32 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:11:36 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
18:11:55 <pha> bijan: fewer headers, more compact
Bijan Parsia: fewer headers, more compact ←
18:12:35 <pha> ... link to structural specification for examples
... link to structural specification for examples ←
18:12:45 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:12:45 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:13:04 <pha> pfps: seems to be very extensive, not compact
Peter Patel-Schneider: seems to be very extensive, not compact ←
18:13:17 <bparsia> My understanding is that it *is* something like this: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf
Bijan Parsia: My understanding is that it *is* something like this: http://ebiquity.umbc.edu/_file_directory_/resources/94.pdf ←
18:13:34 <bparsia> +1 to peter and alan
Bijan Parsia: +1 to peter and alan ←
18:13:38 <pha> alan: ultimate format is reference card, pay attention to that
Alan Ruttenberg: ultimate format is reference card, pay attention to that ←
18:13:38 <bparsia> CSS could do it
Bijan Parsia: CSS could do it ←
18:14:14 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:14:21 <pha> elisa: a lot of work, this approach is easier to start
Elisa Kendall: a lot of work, this approach is easier to start ←
18:14:28 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:14:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:15:06 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:15:06 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:15:11 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
18:15:45 <pha> bijan: there is not a lot of room on quick reference card, should not be lighter version of struct. spec
Bijan Parsia: there is not a lot of room on quick reference card, should not be lighter version of struct. spec ←
18:15:46 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:15:52 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:16:20 <pha> elisa: some of it due to lack of wiki knowledge
Elisa Kendall: some of it due to lack of wiki knowledge ←
18:16:41 <pha> ... thought should be similar to overview document
... thought should be similar to overview document ←
18:17:07 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:17:07 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
18:17:49 <pha> pfps: if it is not a reference card, you failed
Peter Patel-Schneider: if it is not a reference card, you failed ←
18:19:02 <pha> alan: stay away from wiki, use whatever and write it there, with the ultimate format in mind
Alan Ruttenberg: stay away from wiki, use whatever and write it there, with the ultimate format in mind ←
18:20:22 <pha> alan: when could you have pdf file?
Alan Ruttenberg: when could you have pdf file? ←
18:20:22 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
18:21:10 <pha> ... do we need all three syntaxes?
... do we need all three syntaxes? ←
18:21:41 <pha> elisa: does not work for me, can try to find somebody
Elisa Kendall: does not work for me, can try to find somebody ←
18:21:58 <pha> ... end of august more realistic
... end of august more realistic ←
18:22:55 <pha> elisa: september 3rd earliest to produce pdf
Elisa Kendall: september 3rd earliest to produce pdf ←
18:23:05 <pha> dlm: ok, realistic
Deborah McGuinness: ok, realistic ←
18:23:55 <pha> alan: get it out in first week of september, then review, working draft second week of september
Alan Ruttenberg: get it out in first week of september, then review, working draft second week of september ←
18:24:32 <bparsia> We can move it to owled
Bijan Parsia: We can move it to owled ←
18:24:37 <bparsia> or otherwise capture it
Bijan Parsia: or otherwise capture it ←
18:25:03 <pha> evan: make it not rec track?
Evan Wallace: make it not rec track? ←
18:25:18 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:25:22 <pha> alan: has not been decided yet
Alan Ruttenberg: has not been decided yet ←
18:25:22 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:25:22 <Zakim> bparsia should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should no longer be muted ←
18:26:13 <pha> ian: probably not in the set of documents for last call at next F2F
Ian Horrocks: probably not in the set of documents for last call at next F2F ←
18:26:38 <dlm> potential cut - annotation properties (suggestion from alan)
Deborah McGuinness: potential cut - annotation properties (suggestion from alan) ←
18:26:42 <dlm> +q
Deborah McGuinness: +q ←
18:26:43 <pfps> I've been viewing the document and one problem that I see is that the formatting is very bad - it changes significantly as the width of the display changes.
Peter Patel-Schneider: I've been viewing the document and one problem that I see is that the formatting is very bad - it changes significantly as the width of the display changes. ←
18:27:06 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:27:25 <pha> alan: if all the content would be in pdf in beginning of september, reviews positive, then it might fit
Alan Ruttenberg: if all the content would be in pdf in beginning of september, reviews positive, then it might fit ←
18:27:38 <alanr> ack dlm
Alan Ruttenberg: ack dlm ←
18:28:20 <pha> dlm: if we cut the content, then time is less an issue
Deborah McGuinness: if we cut the content, then time is less an issue ←
18:28:27 <pha> ... might be realistic
... might be realistic ←
18:28:51 <pha> alan: will try to get it into working draft quickly
Alan Ruttenberg: will try to get it into working draft quickly ←
18:29:30 <sandro> Alan: We're expecting a reasonably complete PDF in the first week of September.
Alan Ruttenberg: We're expecting a reasonably complete PDF in the first week of September. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
18:30:06 <pha> action: elisa to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: elisa to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:30:06 <trackbot> Created ACTION-182 - to produce pdf document first week of september [on Elisa Kendall - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-182 - to produce pdf document first week of september [on Elisa Kendall - due 2008-08-05]. ←
18:30:13 <pha> action: dlm to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: dlm to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:30:13 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - dlm ←
18:30:14 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:30:14 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia, ??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, Elisa_Kendall, dlm, bparsia, ??P4 ←
18:30:15 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, Elisa, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, ←
18:30:18 <Zakim> ... trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot ←
18:30:35 <IanH> zakim, ??P4 is cgolbrei
Ian Horrocks: zakim, ??P4 is cgolbrei ←
18:30:35 <Zakim> +cgolbrei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgolbrei; got it ←
18:30:46 <Zakim> -Elisa_Kendall
Zakim IRC Bot: -Elisa_Kendall ←
18:31:08 <pha> action: deborah to produce pdf document first week of september
ACTION: deborah to produce pdf document first week of september ←
18:31:08 <trackbot> Created ACTION-183 - Produce pdf document first week of september [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-183 - Produce pdf document first week of september [on Deborah McGuinness - due 2008-08-05]. ←
18:31:18 <Zakim> -cgolbrei
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgolbrei ←
18:31:41 <ekw> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/ ←
18:31:55 <Zakim> +??P1
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P1 ←
18:32:01 <pha> Topic: requirements
18:32:23 <IanH> zakim, ??P1 is cgolbrei
Ian Horrocks: zakim, ??P1 is cgolbrei ←
18:32:23 <Zakim> +cgolbrei; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +cgolbrei; got it ←
18:33:51 <pha> alan: there are two versions, frozen and subsequent
Alan Ruttenberg: there are two versions, frozen and subsequent ←
18:34:35 <pha> evan: this is an evolved version
Evan Wallace: this is an evolved version ←
18:35:27 <pha> ... which way to organize requirements? use case? language feature?
... which way to organize requirements? use case? language feature? ←
18:35:37 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:36:18 <pha> vipul: there does not need to be a choice
Vipul Kashyap: there does not need to be a choice ←
18:36:18 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:36:22 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
18:36:50 <pha> ... goal is to provide a motivation
... goal is to provide a motivation ←
18:37:06 <Zakim> + +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:37:12 <baojie> q+
18:37:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:37:26 <pha> ... What applications is OWL useful for?
... What applications is OWL useful for? ←
18:37:43 <dlm> +1518608aabb is dlm
Deborah McGuinness: +1518608aabb is dlm ←
18:37:47 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:37:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:37:48 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
18:38:00 <pha> evan: new section 2 would be domain, applications, stake holders
Evan Wallace: new section 2 would be domain, applications, stake holders ←
18:38:07 <IanH> Who is calling in from 518.608?
Ian Horrocks: Who is calling in from 518.608? ←
18:38:19 <pha> ... then use cases, requirements, features
... then use cases, requirements, features ←
18:38:22 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
18:38:24 <alanr> ack bijan
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bijan ←
18:38:56 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:38:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, bparsia, cgolbrei, +1.518.608.aabb ←
18:38:57 <Zakim> On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, baojie, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
18:39:08 <pha> bijan: getting large and complicated, hoping for something closer to OWL 1 overview
Bijan Parsia: getting large and complicated, hoping for something closer to OWL 1 overview ←
18:39:11 <IanH> zakim, aabb is dlm
Ian Horrocks: zakim, aabb is dlm ←
18:39:11 <Zakim> +dlm; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +dlm; got it ←
18:39:14 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:39:30 <alanr> q+
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ ←
18:39:41 <pha> ... not sure how helpful it is to have all these details
... not sure how helpful it is to have all these details ←
18:39:43 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:39:46 <alanr> ack baojie
Alan Ruttenberg: ack baojie ←
18:40:03 <bparsia> It's 33 pages by my printer :(
Bijan Parsia: It's 33 pages by my printer :( ←
18:40:18 <pha> jie: is there usecase for scalability?
Jie Bao: is there usecase for scalability? ←
18:40:19 <cgolbrei> version 2 shorter
Christine Golbreich: version 2 shorter ←
18:40:45 <bparsia> What?
Bijan Parsia: What? ←
18:40:52 <pha> evan: hoping to get input for usecases
Evan Wallace: hoping to get input for usecases ←
18:40:57 <bparsia> Usecase for all the profiles?
Bijan Parsia: Usecase for all the profiles? ←
18:41:09 <pha> ... in particular for OWL R, DL Lite
... in particular for OWL R, DL Lite ←
18:41:21 <bparsia> -1 to the web applications point
Bijan Parsia: -1 to the web applications point ←
18:41:32 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:41:33 <vipul> Agree with shortening Version 2 by moving use cases to Section 3
Vipul Kashyap: Agree with shortening Version 2 by moving use cases to Section 3 ←
18:41:35 <pha> alan: jie should be on requirements WG
Alan Ruttenberg: jie should be on requirements WG ←
18:41:41 <bparsia> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:41:43 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:41:59 <pha> alan: charter talks about requirements
Alan Ruttenberg: charter talks about requirements ←
18:42:09 <bparsia> q+ to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document
Bijan Parsia: q+ to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document ←
18:42:12 <pha> evan: no, requirements and use cases
Evan Wallace: no, requirements and use cases ←
18:42:24 <bparsia> Link for version 2?
Bijan Parsia: Link for version 2? ←
18:42:59 <alanr> Requirements:
Alan Ruttenberg: Requirements: ←
18:42:59 <alanr> A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Alan Ruttenberg: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:43:00 <bparsia> Charter:
Bijan Parsia: Charter: ←
18:43:01 <bparsia> Requirements:
Bijan Parsia: Requirements: ←
18:43:01 <bparsia> A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Bijan Parsia: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:43:03 <vipul> I meant Section 2
Vipul Kashyap: I meant Section 2 ←
18:43:07 <alanr> jinx
Alan Ruttenberg: jinx ←
18:43:09 <alanr> :)
Alan Ruttenberg: :) ←
18:43:27 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:43:37 <sandro> ack cgolbrei
Sandro Hawke: ack cgolbrei ←
18:43:40 <sandro> ack alanr
Sandro Hawke: ack alanr ←
18:44:15 <pha> alan: more historical perspective: why did we introduce new features
Alan Ruttenberg: more historical perspective: why did we introduce new features ←
18:45:26 <cgolbrei> history not very helpful for user
Christine Golbreich: history not very helpful for user ←
18:45:26 <baojie> Summarize my question, more use cases for 1) web applications 2) scalability
Jie Bao: Summarize my question, more use cases for 1) web applications 2) scalability ←
18:45:51 <alanr> christine, but our charter says what we wanted to accomplish
Alan Ruttenberg: christine, but our charter says what we wanted to accomplish ←
18:45:58 <pha> vipul: secton 2 can be shortened, use case moved to section 3
Vipul Kashyap: secton 2 can be shortened, use case moved to section 3 ←
18:46:04 <alanr> it should do at least that
Alan Ruttenberg: it should do at least that ←
18:46:11 <pha> ... need to talk about applications, stake holders
... need to talk about applications, stake holders ←
18:46:37 <cgolbrei> better understand motivations + UCs = kind of example/guidelines for use
Christine Golbreich: better understand motivations + UCs = kind of example/guidelines for use ←
18:46:53 <pha> ... missing things like semantic email
... missing things like semantic email ←
18:47:22 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:47:28 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:47:29 <pha> ... applications that already use OWL 2 should be in scope
... applications that already use OWL 2 should be in scope ←
18:47:52 <alanr> back bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: back bparsia ←
18:47:52 <bparsia> ack me
Bijan Parsia: ack me ←
18:47:52 <Zakim> bparsia, you wanted to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia, you wanted to dig in his heels against the blow up of scope of this document ←
18:48:10 <pha> bijan: should be at most 5 pages
Bijan Parsia: should be at most 5 pages ←
18:48:38 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:48:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:49:10 <alanr> not sure I see overlap
Alan Ruttenberg: not sure I see overlap ←
18:49:16 <alanr> mostly because primer is tight
Alan Ruttenberg: mostly because primer is tight ←
18:49:16 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:49:19 <pha> ... overlap in documents (e.g. primer) should be minimized
... overlap in documents (e.g. primer) should be minimized ←
18:50:06 <Zhe> ...
18:50:08 <pha> alan: if we increase scope, it should be done deliberately
Alan Ruttenberg: if we increase scope, it should be done deliberately ←
18:50:08 <cgolbrei> primer is general not OWL2 specific features
Christine Golbreich: primer is general not OWL2 specific features ←
18:50:22 <IanH> From charter: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1.
Ian Horrocks: From charter: A description of the goals and requirements that have motivated the design of OWL 1.1. ←
18:50:53 <pha> evan: do not have a shared vision
Evan Wallace: do not have a shared vision ←
18:51:19 <bparsia> What document are we discussing?
Bijan Parsia: What document are we discussing? ←
18:52:05 <bparsia> Where was evan reading from?
Bijan Parsia: Where was evan reading from? ←
18:52:14 <pha> ian: current overview sounds right
Ian Horrocks: current overview sounds right ←
18:52:16 <pha> alan: agree
Alan Ruttenberg: agree ←
18:52:25 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/ ←
18:52:27 <msmith> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/#Overview
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/draft/ED-owl2-requirements-20080722/#Overview ←
18:53:18 <bparsia> So 5 pages is doable?
Bijan Parsia: So 5 pages is doable? ←
18:53:20 <bparsia> Seems like
Bijan Parsia: Seems like ←
18:53:33 <pha> alan: rationales only for new features
Alan Ruttenberg: rationales only for new features ←
18:53:57 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:54:03 <cgolbrei> UCs + rationlae + new fetures will become more !
Christine Golbreich: UCs + rationlae + new fetures will become more ! ←
18:54:23 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:54:25 <bparsia> I'm not worried about repetition but, e.g., section 2
Bijan Parsia: I'm not worried about repetition but, e.g., section 2 ←
18:54:35 <alanr> ack cgolbrei
Alan Ruttenberg: ack cgolbrei ←
18:54:54 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
18:54:58 <pha> christine: cannot make it 5 pager
Christine Golbreich: cannot make it 5 pager ←
18:55:37 <bparsia> Section 5 would be ok
Bijan Parsia: Section 5 would be ok ←
18:55:41 <bparsia> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:56:12 <pha> ian: do we need all the use cases for the features?
Ian Horrocks: do we need all the use cases for the features? ←
18:56:29 <pha> ... can we skim down to most important ones?
... can we skim down to most important ones? ←
18:57:15 <cgolbrei> yes
Christine Golbreich: yes ←
18:57:27 <pha> alan: some use cases not specific enough
Alan Ruttenberg: some use cases not specific enough ←
18:57:36 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:57:39 <alanr> ack vipul
Alan Ruttenberg: ack vipul ←
18:58:09 <pha> vipul: useful to have use cases across domains
Vipul Kashyap: useful to have use cases across domains ←
18:58:15 <cgolbrei> +q
Christine Golbreich: +q ←
18:59:04 <bparsia> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:59:04 <Zakim> bparsia was not muted, bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia was not muted, bparsia ←
18:59:19 <pha> ... have to identify use cases and stakeholders
... have to identify use cases and stakeholders ←
18:59:50 <alanr> ack bparsia
Alan Ruttenberg: ack bparsia ←
19:00:02 <vipul> q+
Vipul Kashyap: q+ ←
19:00:26 <pha> bijan: give some understanding of the kind of motivations for features, not so specific to domains
Bijan Parsia: give some understanding of the kind of motivations for features, not so specific to domains ←
19:00:35 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:00:41 <alanr> ack cgolbrei
Alan Ruttenberg: ack cgolbrei ←
19:00:42 <bparsia> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:00:43 <Zakim> bparsia should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bparsia should now be muted ←
19:02:49 <alanr> annotations!
Alan Ruttenberg: annotations! ←
19:02:53 <alanr> :(
Alan Ruttenberg: :( ←
19:02:54 <pha> evan: understand the feedback that we need to make document smaller, have an idea of where to do that
Evan Wallace: understand the feedback that we need to make document smaller, have an idea of where to do that ←
19:02:57 <bparsia> Sorry I can't
Bijan Parsia: Sorry I can't ←
19:02:59 <alanr> k
Alan Ruttenberg: k ←
19:03:00 <alanr> bye
Alan Ruttenberg: bye ←
19:03:02 <bparsia> I'm already a bit late (
Bijan Parsia: I'm already a bit late ( ←
19:03:07 <Zakim> -bparsia
Zakim IRC Bot: -bparsia ←
19:03:35 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
19:03:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room, cgolbrei, dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room, cgolbrei, dlm ←
19:03:36 <Zakim> On IRC I see baojie, cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see baojie, cgolbrei, ekw, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, vipul, Achille, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, pha, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, bparsia, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
19:03:58 <pha> vipul: still disagreement - are use cases in scope or not?
Vipul Kashyap: still disagreement - are use cases in scope or not? ←
19:04:22 <cgolbrei> UCR doc usually does have at least some
Christine Golbreich: UCR doc usually does have at least some ←
19:05:14 <bparsia> Not quite gone but strongly against use cases....our charter don't require them and I don't think they are all that helpful for our requriemetns document except as illustrations
Bijan Parsia: Not quite gone but strongly against use cases....our charter don't require them and I don't think they are all that helpful for our requriemetns document except as illustrations ←
19:05:38 <pha> ian: use cases are in scope
Ian Horrocks: use cases are in scope ←
19:07:13 <pha> alan: you need to know who the users are, but not necessarily to document that
Alan Ruttenberg: you need to know who the users are, but not necessarily to document that ←
19:08:57 <cgolbrei> cannot listen
Christine Golbreich: cannot listen ←
19:10:06 <pha> alan: vipul, evan, christine and jie to update requirements document considering the discussed scope (shorter, tighter) within four weeks
Alan Ruttenberg: vipul, evan, christine and jie to update requirements document considering the discussed scope (shorter, tighter) within four weeks ←
19:11:01 <pha> alan: put placeholders for language profiles that do not yet have a name
Alan Ruttenberg: put placeholders for language profiles that do not yet have a name ←
19:12:06 <pha> Topic: Annotations
19:12:35 <Zakim> -cgolbrei
Zakim IRC Bot: -cgolbrei ←
19:13:31 <pha> boris: annotations right now do not have semantics, but you do want to reason over them
Boris Motik: annotations right now do not have semantics, but you do want to reason over them ←
19:13:41 <pha> ... proposal is similar to that of alan
... proposal is similar to that of alan ←
19:14:26 <pha> ... have a transformation of the original ontology to a new ontology in which annotations become logical information
... have a transformation of the original ontology to a new ontology in which annotations become logical information ←
19:15:18 <pha> ... semantics of annotations described in separate ontology
... semantics of annotations described in separate ontology ←
19:22:11 <pha> ... conceptually the same as proposal in AAAI'08 paper on metalevel information
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
... conceptually the same as proposal in AAAI'08 paper on metalevel information ←
19:23:42 <Zakim> -dlm
Zakim IRC Bot: -dlm ←
19:23:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:24:08 <IanH> ack vipul
Ian Horrocks: ack vipul ←
19:25:46 <pha> alan: how can one relate axioms in the two ontologies?
Alan Ruttenberg: how can one relate axioms in the two ontologies? ←
19:26:13 <pha> boris: leave it up to tools
Boris Motik: leave it up to tools ←
19:28:19 <dlm> \me sorry i am going to have to drop off but if i can leave the request for whatever proposal we go with to consider that at least applications need to annotate annotations - some of my science applications have observer logs that we need to encode and annotate
Deborah McGuinness: \me sorry i am going to have to drop off but if i can leave the request for whatever proposal we go with to consider that at least applications need to annotate annotations - some of my science applications have observer logs that we need to encode and annotate ←
19:29:03 <afokoue> Zakim, Achille is afokoue
Achille Fokoue: Zakim, Achille is afokoue ←
19:29:03 <Zakim> sorry, afokoue, I do not recognize a party named 'Achille'
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, afokoue, I do not recognize a party named 'Achille' ←
19:29:26 <pha> zhe: like it better than two file approach
Zhe Wu: like it better than two file approach ←
19:29:32 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:31:22 <pha> zhe: transformation is additional burden on implementors
Zhe Wu: transformation is additional burden on implementors ←
19:31:48 <pha> zhe: prefer to not spec it at all
Zhe Wu: prefer to not spec it at all ←
19:32:21 <pha> ... ok if it does not affect conformance
... ok if it does not affect conformance ←
19:33:02 <afokoue> Zakim, rename Achille to afokoue
Achille Fokoue: Zakim, rename Achille to afokoue ←
19:33:02 <Zakim> I don't understand 'rename Achille to afokoue', afokoue
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'rename Achille to afokoue', afokoue ←
19:38:20 <pha> michael: how expressive is it?
Scribe problem: the name 'michael' is ambiguous. It could be any of: Michael Smith Michael Schneider . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Unknown michael: how expressive is it? ←
19:42:32 <ekw> Peter and Boris paper mentioned in this discussion
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: Peter and Boris paper mentioned in this discussion ←
19:42:45 <ekw> http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/pubs/dhmgh08-metalevel-information.pd
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'ekw' does not match any of the 24 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Jonathan Rees Evan Wallace Michael Smith Michael Schneider Peter Haase Jie Bao Zhe Wu Sandro Hawke Alan Ruttenberg Ian Horrocks Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Unknown Miroslav Achille Fokoue Vipul Kashyap Bijan Parsia Uli Sattler Unknown carsten Deborah McGuinness Elisa Kendall Christine Golbreich Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown ekw: http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/pubs/dhmgh08-metalevel-information.pd ←
19:43:32 <pha> pha: in the original ontology you only have atomic annotations
Peter Haase: in the original ontology you only have atomic annotations ←
19:43:57 <pfps> http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/pubs/dhmgh08-metalevel-information.pdf
Peter Patel-Schneider: http://www.comlab.ox.ac.uk/people/boris.motik/pubs/dhmgh08-metalevel-information.pdf ←
19:44:14 <pha> boris: our proposal does not touch the syntax
Boris Motik: our proposal does not touch the syntax ←
20:08:51 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test_Case_Format
(No events recorded for 24 minutes)
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/Test_Case_Format ←
20:18:45 <sandro> scribe: jie
(No events recorded for 9 minutes)
(Scribe set to Jie Bao)
<IanH> Topic: Publication Schedule
20:19:19 <IanH> o Current working drafts
Ian Horrocks: o Current working drafts ←
20:19:19 <IanH> + Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008)
Ian Horrocks: + Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008) ←
20:19:20 <IanH> REPUBLISH?
Ian Horrocks: REPUBLISH? ←
20:19:20 <IanH> + Profiles (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008)
Ian Horrocks: + Profiles (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008) ←
20:19:20 <IanH> NEEDS WORK TO MAKE IT MORE ACCESSIBLE
Ian Horrocks: NEEDS WORK TO MAKE IT MORE ACCESSIBLE ←
20:19:21 <IanH> + Primer (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008)
Ian Horrocks: + Primer (First Public Working Draft published 11 April 2008) ←
20:19:22 <IanH> NEEDS WORK / NEW BLOOD?
Ian Horrocks: NEEDS WORK / NEW BLOOD? ←
20:19:24 <IanH> o Yet to be published
Ian Horrocks: o Yet to be published ←
20:19:26 <IanH> + Test Cases
Ian Horrocks: + Test Cases ←
20:19:28 <IanH> o Should we publish?
Ian Horrocks: o Should we publish? ←
20:19:30 <IanH> + Manchester Syntax
Ian Horrocks: + Manchester Syntax ←
20:19:32 <IanH> WHAT IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT? (NOTE?)
Ian Horrocks: WHAT IF ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT? (NOTE?) ←
20:19:34 <IanH> o Recap and further discussion of choices we need to make, actions, and schedule before Last Call
Ian Horrocks: o Recap and further discussion of choices we need to make, actions, and schedule before Last Call ←
20:19:36 <IanH> ALL CLEAR?
Ian Horrocks: ALL CLEAR? ←
20:19:38 <IanH> PROFILE NAMES?
Ian Horrocks: PROFILE NAMES? ←
20:19:40 <IanH> ISSUE-130: Conformance, warnings, errors
Ian Horrocks: ISSUE-130: Conformance, warnings, errors ←
20:19:40 <trackbot> ISSUE-130 ACCEPTED: Conformance, warnings, errors notes added
Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-130 ACCEPTED: Conformance, warnings, errors notes added ←
20:19:42 <IanH> Entity annotations status
Ian Horrocks: Entity annotations status ←
20:19:44 <IanH> * Other Outstanding Issues
Ian Horrocks: * Other Outstanding Issues ←
20:19:46 <IanH> o Issue 104 OWL 1.1 DL does not have a disallowed vocabulary
Ian Horrocks: o ISSUE-104 OWL 1.1 DL does not have a disallowed vocabulary ←
20:19:48 <IanH> o Issue 56 Specify standard "repairs" for moving select RDF documents to OWL?
Ian Horrocks: o ISSUE-56 Specify standard "repairs" for moving select RDF documents to OWL? ←
20:19:50 <IanH> o Issue 129 Desirable to have rdf:list vocabulary available for use in modeling in OWL 2
Ian Horrocks: o ISSUE-129 Desirable to have rdf:list vocabulary available for use in modeling in OWL 2 ←
20:19:51 <baojie> Ian: starts the last session
Ian Horrocks: starts the last session ←
20:19:59 <baojie> ... agenda as per IRC
... agenda as per IRC ←
20:20:53 <baojie> ... whether to publish a new version of the structural spec?
... whether to publish a new version of the structural spec? ←
20:21:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
20:21:48 <baojie> ... or the mapping document
... or the mapping document ←
20:22:10 <baojie> Mschnei: may publish in a few weeks a new working draft
Michael Schneider: may publish in a few weeks a new working draft ←
20:22:44 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
20:23:48 <baojie> Ian: republish the structural spec in 3-4 weeks
Ian Horrocks: republish the structural spec in 3-4 weeks ←
20:24:30 <baojie> ... possibly with user facing documents
... possibly with user facing documents ←
20:24:45 <baojie> ... full semantics, mapping
... full semantics, mapping ←
20:29:05 <msmith> msmith: (correction) xml serialization should be published again, because it has changed in a way that is relevant to users
Michael Smith: (correction) xml serialization should be published again, because it has changed in a way that is relevant to users [ Scribe Assist by Michael Smith ] ←
20:29:08 <baojie> Ian: Profiles?
Ian Horrocks: Profiles? ←
20:29:23 <baojie> ... depends on OWL-R unificiation
... depends on OWL-R unificiation ←
20:29:39 <baojie> ... which still has a lot of debate
... which still has a lot of debate ←
20:29:52 <baojie> ... not ready to publish
... not ready to publish ←
20:29:57 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
20:30:08 <msmith> ian, I think that the outstanding DL-Lite issue is also worth waiting on
Michael Smith: ian, I think that the outstanding DL-Lite issue is also worth waiting on ←
20:30:08 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
20:30:08 <Zakim> On the phone I see Meeting_Room
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Meeting_Room ←
20:30:09 <Zakim> On IRC I see ekw, Achille, m_schnei, baojie, cgolbrei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see ekw, Achille, m_schnei, baojie, cgolbrei, jar, Zhe, bmotik, dlm, Mirek, pfps, alanr, msmith, IanH, RRSAgent, Zakim, ewallace, Carsten, sandro, trackbot ←
20:30:26 <m_schnei> m_schnei: if there is a change to the functional syntax, then there will also be changes in the DL semantics and the RDF mapping (and possibly also the OWL/XML syntax)
Michael Schneider: if there is a change to the functional syntax, then there will also be changes in the DL semantics and the RDF mapping (and possibly also the OWL/XML syntax) [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:31:38 <baojie> pfps: need to clear up question about namespace
Peter Patel-Schneider: need to clear up question about namespace ←
20:31:58 <baojie> ... whether to reuse owl namespace
... whether to reuse owl namespace ←
20:32:38 <baojie> Ian: Primer?
Ian Horrocks: Primer? ←
20:33:20 <baojie> ... not changed much
... not changed much ←
20:33:45 <baojie> pfps: I will push Bijan
Peter Patel-Schneider: I will push Bijan ←
20:33:48 <m_schnei> pfps: Primer is probably out of date
Peter Patel-Schneider: Primer is probably out of date [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:34:05 <baojie> ... i will go over primer
... i will go over primer ←
20:34:18 <baojie> ... to make sure it reflects the state of the art
... to make sure it reflects the state of the art ←
20:35:36 <baojie> baojie: Turtle syntax may also need to be considered
Jie Bao: Turtle syntax may also need to be considered ←
20:36:23 <baojie> Ian: potential publication schedule
Ian Horrocks: potential publication schedule ←
20:36:39 <baojie> pfps: need Bijan to edit the Primer
Peter Patel-Schneider: need Bijan to edit the Primer ←
20:36:42 <m_schnei> ian: if rpi wants Turtle in the primer, than probably Jie can work on it?
Ian Horrocks: if rpi wants Turtle in the primer, than probably Jie can work on it? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:37:23 <baojie> baojie: inline review comments need to be addressed
Jie Bao: inline review comments need to be addressed ←
20:39:48 <baojie> pfps: editors need to make it clear how their edits address the comments
Peter Patel-Schneider: editors need to make it clear how their edits address the comments ←
20:40:49 <baojie> Ian: Hope to publish all documents in 4 weeks
Ian Horrocks: Hope to publish all documents in 4 weeks ←
20:41:20 <baojie> ... review due in 3 weeks
... review due in 3 weeks ←
20:42:07 <baojie> ... Aug 22
... Aug 22 ←
20:43:37 <baojie> ... Date to publish RDF (semantics)?
... Date to publish RDF (semantics)? ←
20:43:56 <sandro> Sandro: If any of Michael's editor's comments rise to the level of Issue, then he should talk to Chairs to get them raised as real Issues.
Sandro Hawke: If any of Michael's editor's comments rise to the level of Issue, then he should talk to Chairs to get them raised as real Issues. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:44:01 <baojie> Alan: I have RDF mapping comments need to be addressed
Alan Ruttenberg: I have RDF mapping comments need to be addressed ←
20:44:21 <baojie> s/Alan/AlanR
20:44:56 <baojie> Ian: OWL Full Semantics
Ian Horrocks: OWL Full Semantics ←
20:45:11 <baojie> ... actions on Zhe, Peter, Mschnei to review
... actions on Zhe, Peter, Mschnei to review ←
20:46:31 <m_schnei> m_schnei: Full: after review on 22th, Michael will address as much as possible of the reviewer's points over the weekend, and add editor's notes to these points, which are too hard in that short time
Michael Schneider: Full: after review on 22th, Michael will address as much as possible of the reviewer's points over the weekend, and add editor's notes to these points, which are too hard in that short time [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:46:32 <baojie> Ian: Structural Spec, Semantics, Mapping to RDF Graph
Ian Horrocks: Structural Spec, Semantics, Mapping to RDF Graph ←
20:46:40 <sandro> Ian: republish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF-Grapsh, in time with RDF-Based Semantics
Ian Horrocks: republish Syntax, Semantics, and Mapping-to-RDF-Grapsh, in time with RDF-Based Semantics [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:47:57 <baojie> ... who is going to review those documents?
... who is going to review those documents? ←
20:48:35 <sandro> deadline for reviews -- Aug 19
Sandro Hawke: deadline for reviews -- Aug 19 ←
20:50:04 <baojie> mschnei: I volunteer for the DL semantics
Michael Schneider: I volunteer for the DL semantics ←
20:51:08 <baojie> Sandro: documents need to be aligned
Sandro Hawke: documents need to be aligned ←
20:51:24 <m_schnei> m_schnei: the OWL Full Semantics has three references: old OWL 1 Full, RDF Semantics, and a generic
Michael Schneider: the OWL Full Semantics has three references: old OWL 1 Full, RDF Semantics, and a generic [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:51:45 <m_schnei> ... reference to the Semantics document, which doesn't (much) talk about content
Michael Schneider: ... reference to the Semantics document, which doesn't (much) talk about content ←
20:53:36 <baojie> AlanR: if we can publish on the 3rd week of September,
Alan Ruttenberg: if we can publish on the 3rd week of September, ←
20:54:20 <baojie> ... Sept 15
... Sept 15 ←
20:55:04 <sandro> Alan: maybe publish the two Semantics documents in August, as previously discussed....
Alan Ruttenberg: maybe publish the two Semantics documents in August, as previously discussed.... [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:55:58 <m_schnei> m_schnei: correction: actually, Full document will depend on DL document, because there will be a section about a strong semantic relationship between these two semantics --> needed to have synced publishing
Michael Schneider: correction: actually, Full document will depend on DL document, because there will be a section about a strong semantic relationship between these two semantics --> needed to have synced publishing [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
20:56:37 <baojie> Ian: how about get everything done on owl full semantics, and put it on the shelf for now
Ian Horrocks: how about get everything done on owl full semantics, and put it on the shelf for now ←
20:57:01 <baojie> ... stick to the schedule for OWL Full
... stick to the schedule for OWL Full ←
20:57:11 <sandro> Ian: Okay, let's finish the review process on RDF-Based Semantics, being done on Aug 25, but don't publish it until the others are also ready to publish.
Ian Horrocks: Okay, let's finish the review process on RDF-Based Semantics, being done on Aug 25, but don't publish it until the others are also ready to publish. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:57:19 <sandro> Ian: (hearing no objection)
Ian Horrocks: (hearing no objection) [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:57:35 <sandro> Ian: And then publish everything on 15 September.
Ian Horrocks: And then publish everything on 15 September. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
20:58:09 <baojie> ... structural spec: what work is needed?
... structural spec: what work is needed? ←
20:58:17 <baojie> Boris: not much
Boris Motik: not much ←
20:58:33 <baojie> Ian: Need reveiwers for various documents
Ian Horrocks: Need reveiwers for various documents ←
20:58:34 <baojie> Ian: Semantics?
Ian Horrocks: Semantics? ←
20:58:51 <baojie> MSchnei: me
Michael Schneider: me ←
20:59:11 <baojie> Ian: need to get reviews back by 8 sept
Ian Horrocks: need to get reviews back by 8 sept ←
20:59:53 <baojie> Ian: Syntax: action on msmith
Ian Horrocks: Syntax: action on msmith ←
20:59:58 <baojie> Ian: Profile: action on me
Ian Horrocks: Profile: action on me ←
21:00:13 <baojie> AlanR: RPI review?
Alan Ruttenberg: RPI review? ←
21:00:33 <baojie> baojie: RDF semantics: action on me
Jie Bao: RDF semantics: action on me ←
21:02:24 <baojie> ... and adding Turtle syntax to primer, which will make me busy
... and adding Turtle syntax to primer, which will make me busy ←
21:02:39 <baojie> ... I'm not sure if deb will be available
... I'm not sure if deb will be available ←
21:03:04 <baojie> AlanR: Mapping: action on me
Alan Ruttenberg: Mapping: action on me ←
21:04:30 <baojie> Ian: Jie, could you check if RPI can take another review (Profile, Structural Spec) ?
Ian Horrocks: Jie, could you check if RPI can take another review (Profile, Structural Spec) ? ←
21:04:49 <baojie> Pfps: only half of the WG is active
Peter Patel-Schneider: only half of the WG is active ←
21:05:24 <baojie> Ian: need to send to the whole WG ; if you care, better look now
Ian Horrocks: need to send to the whole WG ; if you care, better look now ←
21:05:49 <baojie> Sandro: we have about 30 issues open
Sandro Hawke: we have about 30 issues open ←
21:07:03 <baojie> Ian: should avoid vague issues!
Ian Horrocks: should avoid vague issues! ←
21:08:03 <sandro> list of open issues: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/open
Sandro Hawke: list of open issues: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/tracker/issues/open ←
21:08:07 <msmith> action msmith to review syntax document
Michael Smith: action msmith to review syntax document ←
21:08:07 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - msmith ←
21:08:20 <msmith> action michaelsm to review syntax document
Michael Smith: action michaelsm to review syntax document ←
21:08:20 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - michaelsm
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - michaelsm ←
21:08:32 <pfps> ACTION: pfps to review full semantics between 19 and 22 August
ACTION: pfps to review full semantics between 19 and 22 August ←
21:08:32 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - pfps ←
21:08:49 <msmith> action michael to review syntax document
Michael Smith: action michael to review syntax document ←
21:08:56 <pfps> ACTION: Patel-Schneider to review full semantics between 19 and 22 August
ACTION: Patel-Schneider to review full semantics between 19 and 22 August ←
21:08:56 <trackbot> Created ACTION-184 - Review full semantics between 19 and 22 August [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-184 - Review full semantics between 19 and 22 August [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:10:11 <msmith> action michael to review syntax document
Michael Smith: action michael to review syntax document ←
21:10:11 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - michael ←
21:10:11 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msmith9, mschneid, msintek)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msmith9, mschneid, msintek) ←
21:10:13 <m_schnei> ACTION: m_schnei to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August
ACTION: m_schnei to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August ←
21:10:13 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - m_schnei
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, couldn't find user - m_schnei ←
21:10:24 <m_schnei> ACTION: Michael Schneider to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August
ACTION: Michael Schneider to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August ←
21:10:24 <trackbot> Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Michael
Trackbot IRC Bot: Sorry, amibiguous username (more than one match) - Michael ←
21:10:24 <trackbot> Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msmith9, mschneid, msintek)
Trackbot IRC Bot: Try using a different identifier, such as family name or username (eg. msmith9, mschneid, msintek) ←
21:10:38 <msmith> action msmith9 to review syntax document
Michael Smith: action msmith9 to review syntax document ←
21:10:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-185 - Review syntax document [on Michael Smith - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-185 - Review syntax document [on Michael Smith - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:10:39 <m_schnei> ACTION: mschneid to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August
ACTION: mschneid to review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August ←
21:10:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-186 - Review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-186 - Review DL semantics between 19 and 22 August [on Michael Schneider - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:10:50 <baojie> ACTION: Jie to add turtle syntax to the Primer
ACTION: Jie to add turtle syntax to the Primer ←
21:10:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-187 - Add turtle syntax to the Primer [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-187 - Add turtle syntax to the Primer [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:11:38 <baojie> Action: Ian review Profiles
ACTION: Ian review Profiles ←
21:11:38 <trackbot> Created ACTION-188 - Review Profiles [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-188 - Review Profiles [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:12:11 <baojie> Action: Alan review RDF Mapping
ACTION: Alan review RDF Mapping ←
21:12:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-189 - Review RDF Mapping [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-189 - Review RDF Mapping [on Alan Ruttenberg - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:21:04 <IanH> Action: Ian Send email to WG about review responsibilities for forthcoming working drafts
(No events recorded for 8 minutes)
ACTION: Ian Send email to WG about review responsibilities for forthcoming working drafts ←
21:23:53 <IanH> Action: Jie to solicit RPI reviews of key documents
ACTION: Jie to solicit RPI reviews of key documents ←
21:23:53 <trackbot> Created ACTION-191 - Solicit RPI reviews of key documents [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-191 - Solicit RPI reviews of key documents [on Jie Bao - due 2008-08-05]. ←
<IanH> Topic: Test Cases
21:12:43 <baojie> Ian: move to test cases
Ian Horrocks: move to test cases ←
21:13:52 <msmith> Test document, as it now exists is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test
Michael Smith: Test document, as it now exists is at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test ←
21:14:46 <baojie> Msmith: changes to test types described at end of doc
Michael Smith: changes to test types described at end of doc ←
21:15:35 <baojie> Sandro: have you considered importing
Sandro Hawke: have you considered importing ←
21:15:48 <baojie> Msmith: no
Michael Smith: no ←
21:15:57 <baojie> Msmith: changes
Michael Smith: changes ←
21:16:30 <sandro> Sandro: you're missing owl:ImportsTest, and it'll be hard to do with this approach of having the content in the wiki/test-file.
Sandro Hawke: you're missing owl:ImportsTest, and it'll be hard to do with this approach of having the content in the wiki/test-file. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
21:16:59 <baojie> ... http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test#Changes_From_WebOnt_Tests
... http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Test#Changes_From_WebOnt_Tests ←
21:17:44 <baojie> AlanR: imports are important
Alan Ruttenberg: imports are important ←
21:18:31 <baojie> Msmith: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/GuideToTestTemplate
Michael Smith: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/GuideToTestTemplate ←
21:18:50 <baojie> ... this is a template to create test cases
... this is a template to create test cases ←
21:19:24 <baojie> ... can be in different syntaxes
... can be in different syntaxes ←
21:19:50 <baojie> ... there are examples
... there are examples ←
21:20:22 <baojie> ... e.g., http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/TestCase:Datatype-Primitive-Disjointness-001
... e.g., http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/TestCase:Datatype-Primitive-Disjointness-001 ←
21:21:04 <baojie> ... each example has categories
... each example has categories ←
21:21:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-190 - Send email to WG about review responsibilities for forthcoming working drafts [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-08-05].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-190 - Send email to WG about review responsibilities for forthcoming working drafts [on Ian Horrocks - due 2008-08-05]. ←
21:21:40 <baojie> ... will use a semantic wiki to edit
... will use a semantic wiki to edit ←
21:23:05 <baojie> ... need time to go over webont example to reflect OWL 2 changes
... need time to go over webont example to reflect OWL 2 changes ←
21:24:00 <baojie> Msmith: input one syntax, other syntaxes will be populated
Michael Smith: input one syntax, other syntaxes will be populated ←
21:24:48 <baojie> Alan: we need test case for RDF mapping
Alan Ruttenberg: we need test case for RDF mapping ←
21:26:13 <baojie> Alan: normative syntaxes will go to test
Alan Ruttenberg: normative syntaxes will go to test ←
21:27:28 <baojie> Mschnei: there are different test cases
Michael Schneider: there are different test cases ←
21:28:39 <m_schnei> m_schnei: I think AlanR has several kinds of tests in mind:
Michael Schneider: I think AlanR has several kinds of tests in mind: [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:29:17 <m_schnei> m_schnei: first, negative inverse-mapping tests, where certain RDF graphs are rejected, because they are not DL, or one of the fragments
Michael Schneider: first, negative inverse-mapping tests, where certain RDF graphs are rejected, because they are not DL, or one of the fragments [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:29:43 <m_schnei> m_schnei: second, if an RDF graph is accepted, then is the resulting FS is as expected
Michael Schneider: second, if an RDF graph is accepted, then is the resulting FS is as expected [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:30:08 <baojie> Sandro: it is not practical to check (all syntaxes correctness?)
Sandro Hawke: it is not practical to check (all syntaxes correctness?) ←
21:30:28 <m_schnei> m_schnei: concern: perhaps in some cases inverse mapping not completely derterministic (is this right for the reverse mapping?)
Michael Schneider: concern: perhaps in some cases inverse mapping not completely derterministic (is this right for the reverse mapping?) [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:31:23 <baojie> Alan: need a new category: syntax checking test
Alan Ruttenberg: need a new category: syntax checking test ←
21:31:32 <sandro> Sandro: Alan wants an owl:SyntaxConverstionTest
Sandro Hawke: Alan wants an owl:SyntaxConverstionTest [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
21:31:49 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
21:32:33 <baojie> Ian: if we need conformance test case?
Ian Horrocks: if we need conformance test case? ←
21:32:33 <msmith> Test cases can be created by creating a new wiki page, using the TestCase: prefix in the page name and copying and pasting from http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/GuideToTestTemplate
Michael Smith: Test cases can be created by creating a new wiki page, using the TestCase: prefix in the page name and copying and pasting from http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/GuideToTestTemplate ←
21:32:33 <msmith> For examples, see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/User:MikeSmith#Test_Cases
Michael Smith: For examples, see http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/User:MikeSmith#Test_Cases ←
21:32:36 <msmith> bye
Michael Smith: bye ←
21:33:22 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/#conformance
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-test/#conformance ←
21:34:22 <sandro> See also http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Conformance_Clauses
Sandro Hawke: See also http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wiki/BLD#Conformance_Clauses ←
21:35:08 <baojie> Mschnei: look at the old owl test case, there are OWL full test cases
Michael Schneider: look at the old owl test case, there are OWL full test cases ←
21:35:50 <baojie> Ian: do we have schedule for test case publication?
Ian Horrocks: do we have schedule for test case publication? ←
21:36:10 <sandro> m_schnei, there are 41 OWL Full Entailments tests and 7 OWL Full Inconsistency tests (and 2 import ones).
Sandro Hawke: m_schnei, there are 41 OWL Full Entailments tests and 7 OWL Full Inconsistency tests (and 2 import ones). ←
21:36:10 <baojie> Msmith: not now
Michael Smith: not now ←
21:36:37 <m_schnei> thanks, sandro, that's a lot... to review :-)
Michael Schneider: thanks, sandro, that's a lot... to review :-) ←
21:36:38 <sandro> m_schnei, see http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out for one easy view on them.
Sandro Hawke: m_schnei, see http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out for one easy view on them. ←
21:36:46 <baojie> ... once we have them in semantic wiki
... once we have them in semantic wiki ←
21:36:59 <baojie> .. in 2-3 weeks
.. in 2-3 weeks ←
21:37:13 <sandro> m_schnei, more specifically: http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out#table_1_Approved%20Full
Sandro Hawke: m_schnei, more specifically: http://www.w3.org/2003/08/owl-systems/test-results-out#table_1_Approved%20Full ←
21:37:23 <baojie> Ian: is it realistic to ask for review?
Ian Horrocks: is it realistic to ask for review? ←
21:37:30 <baojie> Msmith: no
Michael Smith: no ←
21:39:02 <baojie> Ian: what is left?
Ian Horrocks: what is left? ←
21:39:14 <baojie> ... 20 minutes more
... 20 minutes more ←
21:39:41 <baojie> ... brain storming
... brain storming ←
<IanH> Topic: Manchester Syntax
21:40:03 <baojie> ... Manchester syntax
... Manchester syntax ←
21:40:29 <baojie> Alan: the part on instances is not ready
Alan Ruttenberg: the part on instances is not ready ←
21:40:42 <m_schnei> ian: idea is to publish Manchester Syntax as a Note, not a Rec
Ian Horrocks: idea is to publish Manchester Syntax as a Note, not a Rec [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:40:48 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ManchesterSyntax
Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/ManchesterSyntax ←
21:41:04 <baojie> zhe: who used Machester syntax?
Zhe Wu: who used Machester syntax? ←
21:41:15 <baojie> Alan: Proetge, Topbraid Composer
Alan Ruttenberg: Proetge, Topbraid Composer ←
21:41:22 <alanr> lsw
Alan Ruttenberg: lsw ←
21:42:59 <baojie> sandro: we can't decide to publish it to be note by us
Sandro Hawke: we can't decide to publish it to be note by us ←
21:43:03 <m_schnei> m_schnei: are we actually free to decide to *not* publish Manchester as a note, given the fact that we use it in a Rec track document (the primer)?
Michael Schneider: are we actually free to decide to *not* publish Manchester as a note, given the fact that we use it in a Rec track document (the primer)? [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:43:15 <baojie> ... first as working draft
... first as working draft ←
21:43:31 <m_schnei> pfps: we might decide to publish it elsewhere (not as a Note)
Peter Patel-Schneider: we might decide to publish it elsewhere (not as a Note) [ Scribe Assist by Michael Schneider ] ←
21:44:10 <baojie> Zhe: we will not use the Manchester syntax
Zhe Wu: we will not use the Manchester syntax ←
21:44:54 <baojie> Ian: it is mainly about presentation, used in Primer
Ian Horrocks: it is mainly about presentation, used in Primer ←
21:45:21 <baojie> Jie: I'm neutral if it is a note
Jie Bao: I'm neutral if it is a note ←
21:47:27 <baojie> Alan: my concern is that not all of the Manchester syntax is tested
Alan Ruttenberg: my concern is that not all of the Manchester syntax is tested ←
21:47:29 <sandro> Alan: I'm concerned that not all of the Manchester Syntax is tested yet. I'll see what I can do to help make sure it is tested soon.
Alan Ruttenberg: I'm concerned that not all of the Manchester Syntax is tested yet. I'll see what I can do to help make sure it is tested soon. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
21:48:06 <baojie> Ian: 15 minutes
Ian Horrocks: 15 minutes ←
21:49:12 <m_schnei> Topic: Profile Names
21:49:59 <baojie> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names
http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names ←
21:50:34 <baojie> Ian: naming is quite political
Ian Horrocks: naming is quite political ←
21:51:49 <baojie> Sandro: let go through proposals
Sandro Hawke: let go through proposals ←
21:52:38 <baojie> Ian: Zhe, if we use OWL-SQL, are you ok with it?
Ian Horrocks: Zhe, if we use OWL-SQL, are you ok with it? ←
21:52:44 <baojie> Zhe: may not
21:52:49 <baojie> ... OWL-R is better
... OWL-R is better ←
21:53:21 <baojie> Sandro: OWL-Rule looks like a rule language
Sandro Hawke: OWL-Rule looks like a rule language ←
21:54:21 <baojie> Zhe: the 2-letter proposal looks ok
Zhe Wu: the 2-letter proposal looks ok ←
21:54:36 <baojie> Ian: looks not bad to me
Ian Horrocks: looks not bad to me ←
21:56:10 <alanr> s/ql/sql/
Alan Ruttenberg: s/ql/sql/ (warning: replacement failed) ←
21:56:31 <baojie> Ian: DL, EL, QL, RL, XL
Ian Horrocks: DL, EL, QL, RL, XL ←
21:57:17 <baojie> ... looks this proposal has some attraction
... looks this proposal has some attraction ←
21:58:41 <baojie> ... may send to the group to solve the naming issue
... may send to the group to solve the naming issue ←
<IanH> Subtopic: Strawpoll on two letter names
21:59:08 <sandro> STRAWPOLL: Use the "Two Letter" row on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names (OWL 2 DL, OWL 2 EL, OWL 2 QL, OWL 2 RL, OWL 2 XL)
STRAWPOLL: Use the "Two Letter" row on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Profile_Names (OWL 2 DL, OWL 2 EL, OWL 2 QL, OWL 2 RL, OWL 2 XL) ←
21:59:09 <pfps> +0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
Peter Patel-Schneider: +0.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 ←
21:59:23 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
21:59:26 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
21:59:28 <Zhe> +1
21:59:32 <IanH> +1
Ian Horrocks: +1 ←
21:59:33 <sandro> achille +1
Sandro Hawke: achille +1 ←
21:59:34 <baojie> baojie +3.1415926
baojie +3.1415926 ←
21:59:36 <m_schnei> +1
Michael Schneider: +1 ←
22:00:29 <sandro> Ian: agreement here. Put on agenda for next week.
Ian Horrocks: agreement here. Put on agenda for next week. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
22:00:55 <sandro> ADJOURN!
Sandro Hawke: ADJOURN! ←
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