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17:56:56 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/21-owl-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2007/11/21-owl-irc ←
17:56:58 <Zakim> +??P4
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4 ←
17:57:15 <Rinke> ah, that looks better
Rinke Hoekstra: ah, that looks better ←
17:57:25 <Rinke> ScribeNick: Rinke
(Scribe set to Rinke Hoekstra)
17:58:05 <MichaelSmith> rrsagent, make record public
Michael Smith: rrsagent, make record public ←
17:58:17 <Rinke> zakim, who's here
zakim, who's here ←
17:58:17 <Zakim> Rinke, you need to end that query with '?'
Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke, you need to end that query with '?' ←
17:58:23 <Rinke> zakim, who's here?
zakim, who's here? ←
17:58:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK ←
17:58:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng ←
17:58:52 <Zakim> +??P6
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P6 ←
17:59:17 <Zakim> +MartinD
Zakim IRC Bot: +MartinD ←
17:59:20 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P6 is bmotik
Boris Motik: Zakim, ??P6 is bmotik ←
17:59:20 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it ←
17:59:27 <Zakim> +IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: +IanH ←
17:59:31 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
17:59:31 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
17:59:33 <MartinD> zakim, mute me
Martin Dzbor: zakim, mute me ←
17:59:33 <Zakim> MartinD should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: MartinD should now be muted ←
18:00:05 <Zakim> -bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←
18:00:23 <Zakim> +??P9
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9 ←
18:00:49 <Zakim> +Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan ←
18:01:02 <Zakim> +??P12
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12 ←
18:01:03 <uli> zakim, ??P9 is me
Uli Sattler: zakim, ??P9 is me ←
18:01:03 <Zakim> +uli; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +uli; got it ←
18:01:09 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
18:01:13 <bmotik> Zakim, ??P12 is bmotik
Boris Motik: Zakim, ??P12 is bmotik ←
18:01:13 <Zakim> +bmotik; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bmotik; got it ←
18:01:16 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
18:01:16 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
18:01:17 <Zakim> +??P11
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P11 ←
18:01:39 <Zakim> +??P18
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P18 ←
18:01:48 <vit> Zakim, ??P18 is me
Vit Novacek: Zakim, ??P18 is me ←
18:01:48 <Zakim> +vit; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +vit; got it ←
18:01:58 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:01:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit ←
18:02:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng ←
18:02:27 <alanr> zakik, who is on the call?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakik, who is on the call? ←
18:02:35 <alanr> zakim, who is on the call?
Alan Ruttenberg: zakim, who is on the call? ←
18:02:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit ←
18:02:40 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
18:03:03 <alanr> calling in on cell phone too, for a few minutes, so I can fetch a coffee...
Alan Ruttenberg: calling in on cell phone too, for a few minutes, so I can fetch a coffee... ←
18:03:35 <sandro> "Zakim, ??19 is me"
Sandro Hawke: "Zakim, ??19 is me" ←
18:03:46 <Zakim> +??P20
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20 ←
18:03:50 <pfps> zakim, ??p20 is me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, ??p20 is me ←
18:03:50 <Zakim> +pfps; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps; got it ←
18:03:51 <bcuencag> zakim, ??P19 is me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: zakim, ??P19 is me ←
18:03:52 <Zakim> +bcuencag; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +bcuencag; got it ←
18:03:54 <Zakim> +Alan_Ruttenberg
Zakim IRC Bot: +Alan_Ruttenberg ←
18:03:56 <pfps> zakim, mute me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:03:56 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←
18:04:00 <Zakim> +??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3 ←
18:04:06 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:04:06 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit, bcuencag, pfps (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, ??P11, vit, bcuencag, pfps (muted), ←
18:04:09 <Zakim> ... Alan_Ruttenberg, ??P3
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Alan_Ruttenberg, ??P3 ←
18:04:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see zhe, pfps, ewallace, alanr, jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zhe, pfps, ewallace, alanr, jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng ←
18:04:12 <Carsten> zakim, ??p3 is me
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Carsten: zakim, ??p3 is me ←
18:04:14 <Zakim> +Carsten; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Carsten; got it ←
18:04:20 <Carsten> zakim, mut me
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Carsten: zakim, mut me ←
18:04:20 <Zakim> I don't understand 'mut me', Carsten
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'mut me', Carsten ←
18:04:25 <Carsten> zakim, mute me
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 45 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown Carsten: zakim, mute me ←
18:04:25 <Zakim> Carsten should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Carsten should now be muted ←
18:04:33 <Rinke> zakim, mute me
zakim, mute me ←
18:04:33 <Zakim> Rinke should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke should now be muted ←
18:04:48 <Zakim> +Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: +Evan_Wallace ←
18:06:05 <sandro> "Zakim, ??P11 is me"
Sandro Hawke: "Zakim, ??P11 is me" ←
18:06:08 <sandro> like that.
Sandro Hawke: like that. ←
18:06:17 <zhe> Zakim, ??P11 is me
18:06:17 <Zakim> +zhe; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +zhe; got it ←
18:06:26 <IanH> zakim, who is here?
Ian Horrocks: zakim, who is here? ←
18:06:26 <Zakim> On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, zhe, vit, bcuencag, pfps (muted),
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see bijan (muted), Rinke (muted), MIchaelSmith, MarkusK (muted), MartinD (muted), IanH, uli (muted), Alan, bmotik (muted), Sandro, zhe, vit, bcuencag, pfps (muted), ←
18:06:29 <Zakim> ... Alan_Ruttenberg, Carsten (muted), Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: ... Alan_Ruttenberg, Carsten (muted), Evan_Wallace ←
18:06:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see zhe, pfps, ewallace, alanr, jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zhe, pfps, ewallace, alanr, jeremy, Carsten, uli, bcuencag, bmotik, RRSAgent, Zakim, MichaelSmith, MarkusK, vit, bijan, Rinke, IanH, MartinD, sandro, trackbot-ng ←
18:07:04 <Rinke> IanH: covered Role call
Ian Horrocks: covered Role call ←
18:07:20 <sandro> scribenick: Rinke
18:07:25 <Rinke> ok, thanks
ok, thanks ←
18:07:30 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
Sandro Hawke: RRSAgent, pointer? ←
18:07:30 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/21-owl-irc#T18-07-30
RRSAgent IRC Bot: See http://www.w3.org/2007/11/21-owl-irc#T18-07-30 ←
18:07:32 <Rinke> IanH: covered Role call
Ian Horrocks: covered Role call ←
18:07:43 <Rinke> ... any amendments?
... any amendments? ←
18:07:50 <Rinke> ... no amendments
... no amendments ←
18:07:56 <Rinke> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Previous Minutes
PROPOSED: Accept Previous Previous Minutes ←
18:08:00 <bijan> Are we going to cover more issues if we finsih the one's listed
Bijan Parsia: Are we going to cover more issues if we finsih the one's listed ←
18:08:05 <bijan> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
18:08:06 <jeremy> they were rather late
Jeremy Carroll: they were rather late ←
18:08:10 <sandro> Present: bijan, Rinke, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK, MartinD, IanH, uli, Alan, bmotik, Sandro, zhe, vit, bcuencag, pfps, Alan_Ruttenberg, Carsten, Evan_Wallace
Scribe problem: the name 'Carsten' does not match any of the 42 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Achille Fokoue Alan Ruttenberg Anne Cregan Bernardo Cuenca Grau Bijan Parsia Boris Motik Conrad Bock Deborah McGuinness Doug Lenat Elisa Kendall Enrico Franconi Evan Wallace Evren Sirin Fabian Neuhaus Fabien Gandon Giorgos Stamou Giorgos Stoilos Ian Horrocks Ivan Herman James Hendler Jeff Pan Jeremy Carroll Joanne Luciano Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Michael Sintek Michael Smith Olivier Corby Pascal Hitzler Peter Patel-Schneider Ratnesh Sahay Rinke Hoekstra Sandro Hawke Steve Battle Suzette Stoutenburg Tommie Meyer Uli Sattler Vassilis Tzouvaras Vipul Kashyap Vit Novacek Vojtech Svatek Zhe Wu
18:08:21 <pfps> Ian: previous *PREVIOUS* minutes
Ian Horrocks: previous *PREVIOUS* minutes [ Scribe Assist by Peter Patel-Schneider ] ←
18:08:30 <jeremy> (ok)
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: (ok) ←
18:08:53 <MartinD> 7th
Martin Dzbor: 7th ←
18:08:54 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.14/Minutes
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.14/Minutes ←
18:09:00 <Zakim> -Alan_Ruttenberg
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan_Ruttenberg ←
18:09:06 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.07/Minutes
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.07/Minutes ←
18:09:12 <alanr> back
Alan Ruttenberg: back ←
18:09:28 <Rinke> ewallace: previous previous minutes list me as evan wallface
Evan Wallace: previous previous minutes list me as evan wallface ←
18:10:08 <Zakim> +JeffP
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeffP ←
18:10:16 <Rinke> sandro: accept them pending the change
Sandro Hawke: accept them pending the change ←
18:10:38 <IanH> PROPOSED: Accept previous previous minutes module fixing Evan's name
PROPOSED: Accept previous previous minutes module fixing Evan's name ←
18:11:01 <MichaelSmith> +1 to accept previous previous minutes
Michael Smith: +1 to accept previous previous minutes ←
18:11:02 <Rinke> sandro: fixed them
Sandro Hawke: fixed them ←
18:11:12 <Rinke> ACCEPTED: Accept previous previous minutes module fixing Evan's name
RESOLVED: Accept previous previous minutes module fixing Evan's name ←
18:11:22 <bijan> I just updated the attendance list to add Uli
Bijan Parsia: I just updated the attendance list to add Uli ←
18:11:24 <bijan> Who was missing
Bijan Parsia: Who was missing ←
18:11:25 <Rinke> PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes
PROPOSED: Accept Previous Minutes ←
18:11:27 <jeremy> SANDRO - please reply to prtvate message
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: SANDRO - please reply to prtvate message ←
18:11:31 <alanr> I approve
Alan Ruttenberg: I approve ←
18:11:34 <Rinke> sandro: haven't been there long enough to be reviewed
Sandro Hawke: haven't been there long enough to be reviewed ←
18:11:43 <pfps> +1 wait
Peter Patel-Schneider: +1 wait ←
18:11:51 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:11:54 <Rinke> IanH: who has reviewed them?
Ian Horrocks: who has reviewed them? ←
18:11:58 <uli> i haven't
Uli Sattler: i haven't ←
18:11:58 <bijan> I just did
Bijan Parsia: I just did ←
18:12:07 <Rinke> had a quick look
had a quick look ←
18:12:12 <Rinke> IanH: leave them to next week
Ian Horrocks: leave them to next week ←
18:12:21 <Rinke> ... action item status?
... action item status? ←
18:12:28 <pfps> aren't minutes supposed to be ready in 48 hours or less?
Peter Patel-Schneider: aren't minutes supposed to be ready in 48 hours or less? ←
18:12:28 <Rinke> sandro: still mulling it over
Sandro Hawke: still mulling it over ←
18:12:40 <Rinke> IanH: move to next week
Ian Horrocks: move to next week ←
18:12:48 <Rinke> alanr: did the syntax document (Action 15)
Alan Ruttenberg: did the syntax document (ACTION-15) ←
18:13:00 <Rinke> IanH: action 17 qname approval
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-17 qname approval ←
18:13:17 <Rinke> MichaelSmith: email has been sent, asking about schema components status
Michael Smith: email has been sent, asking about schema components status ←
18:13:20 <sandro> yes, PFPS, that's the normal convention. In this case the fault was mostly mine. :-(
Sandro Hawke: yes, PFPS, that's the normal convention. In this case the fault was mostly mine. :-( ←
18:13:21 <MichaelSmith> In http://www.w3.org/mid/20071115.054530.235781452.pfps@research.bell-labs.com pfps found text in XML Schema spec http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-datatypes built-in datatypes and facets are both given URIs
Michael Smith: In http://www.w3.org/mid/20071115.054530.235781452.pfps@research.bell-labs.com pfps found text in XML Schema spec http://www.w3.org/TR/xmlschema-2/#built-in-datatypes built-in datatypes and facets are both given URIs ←
18:13:23 <alanr> Evan, are you willing to write up the steps to clean up the minutes? (on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions)
Alan Ruttenberg: Evan, are you willing to write up the steps to clean up the minutes? (on http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions) ←
18:13:34 <Rinke> ... most of the issue has been addressed because peter found relevant parts
... most of the issue has been addressed because peter found relevant parts ←
18:13:47 <Rinke> ... action was done
... action was done ←
18:13:52 <Zakim> + +078910aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +078910aaaa ←
18:13:57 <Rinke> IanH: action 18, brain dump?
Ian Horrocks: ACTION-18, brain dump? ←
18:14:03 <alanr> continue
Alan Ruttenberg: continue ←
18:14:05 <Rinke> alanr: haven't dumped, postponed to next week
Alan Ruttenberg: haven't dumped, postponed to next week ←
18:14:18 <jeremy> Zakim, aaaa is me
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: Zakim, aaaa is me ←
18:14:18 <Zakim> +jeremy; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +jeremy; got it ←
18:14:21 <Rinke> IanH: f2f agenda
Ian Horrocks: f2f agenda ←
18:14:43 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F.2007.12-Manchester/Agenda
Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F.2007.12-Manchester/Agenda ←
18:14:44 <Rinke> IanH: have collected a list of items to be discussed at the f2f, please look at the agenda
Ian Horrocks: have collected a list of items to be discussed at the f2f, please look at the agenda ←
18:14:55 <bijan> F2F agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F.2007.12-Manchester/Agenda
Bijan Parsia: F2F agenda: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F.2007.12-Manchester/Agenda ←
18:15:04 <Rinke> ... currently on day 1 an overview of language features, imports
... currently on day 1 an overview of language features, imports ←
18:15:10 <bijan> Datatypes?
Bijan Parsia: Datatypes? ←
18:15:11 <Rinke> ... two other topics dl and full alignment
... two other topics dl and full alignment ←
18:15:29 <Rinke> ... if you have comments, topics, then you might want to suggest them
... if you have comments, topics, then you might want to suggest them ←
18:15:37 <pfps> suggest F2F topics how?
Peter Patel-Schneider: suggest F2F topics how? ←
18:15:37 <Rinke> ... the schedule is going to be quite tight!
... the schedule is going to be quite tight! ←
18:15:49 <pfps> q+
18:15:54 <Rinke> alanr: where did you put the agenda?
Alan Ruttenberg: where did you put the agenda? ←
18:15:57 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:15:57 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←
18:16:06 <JeffP> q?
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q? ←
18:16:11 <Rinke> IanH: link from meetings page, in the irc as well
Ian Horrocks: link from meetings page, in the irc as well ←
18:16:33 <Rinke> ... cannot guarantee that every topic will be added
... cannot guarantee that every topic will be added ←
18:16:49 <Rinke> alanr: if you feel that any knowledge needs to be made clear, we can put it in the tutorial
Alan Ruttenberg: if you feel that any knowledge needs to be made clear, we can put it in the tutorial ←
18:16:56 <bijan> What's the tutorial?
Bijan Parsia: What's the tutorial? ←
18:17:00 <bijan> When is it?
Bijan Parsia: When is it? ←
18:17:07 <Rinke> IanH: over the course of the next week we will fix the agenda?
Ian Horrocks: over the course of the next week we will fix the agenda? ←
18:17:14 <pfps> q-
18:17:18 <Rinke> (who's this?)
(who's this?) ←
18:17:21 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:17:21 <Zakim> pfps was not muted, pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: pfps was not muted, pfps ←
18:17:43 <Rinke> ewallace: would like to discuss the Declaration
Evan Wallace: would like to discuss the Declaration ←
18:17:50 <Rinke> ... just the discussion of it
... just the discussion of it ←
18:17:52 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:17:52 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:17:54 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:18:12 <Rinke> bijan: what's the tutorial?
Bijan Parsia: what's the tutorial? ←
18:18:31 <Rinke> alanr: orientation, looking who's coming, having a walkthrough of the specs, and doing a Q&A
Alan Ruttenberg: orientation, looking who's coming, having a walkthrough of the specs, and doing a Q&A ←
18:18:42 <Rinke> ... if you have ideas of what should be covered, let us know
... if you have ideas of what should be covered, let us know ←
18:18:59 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:18:59 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:19:00 <Rinke> bianr: is that the same as Overview of language features?
Bijan Parsia: is that the same as Overview of language features? ←
18:19:03 <Rinke> alanr: yes
Alan Ruttenberg: yes ←
18:19:09 <Rinke> IanH: are we done?
Ian Horrocks: are we done? ←
18:19:10 <sandro> chair: Ian
18:19:12 <bijan> s/bianr/bijan
18:19:29 <Rinke> IanH: alan and I will prepare a more concrete agenda
Ian Horrocks: alan and I will prepare a more concrete agenda ←
18:19:36 <Rinke> IanH: 2nd F2F meeting
Ian Horrocks: 2nd F2F meeting ←
18:19:37 <bijan> Perhaps, ian should send an email to solicit agenda topics for f2f?
Bijan Parsia: Perhaps, ian should send an email to solicit agenda topics for f2f? ←
18:19:43 <IanH> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2_proposals
Ian Horrocks: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/F2F2_proposals ←
18:19:50 <Rinke> ... quite a few have commented already
... quite a few have commented already ←
18:20:05 <JeffP> Beijing
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: Beijing ←
18:20:10 <Rinke> ... any people on the phone who would like to add their response before we come to a decision?
... any people on the phone who would like to add their response before we come to a decision? ←
18:20:16 <pfps> zakim, mute me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, mute me ←
18:20:16 <Zakim> pfps should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should now be muted ←
18:20:30 <alanr> q+ to go back to scribing for a second
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to go back to scribing for a second ←
18:20:32 <Rinke> ... uli, boris, bernardo... you didn't respond yet?
... uli, boris, bernardo... you didn't respond yet? ←
18:20:40 <bmotik> No preference
Boris Motik: No preference ←
18:20:41 <uli> oups - i thought i had: preference for washington
Uli Sattler: oups - i thought i had: preference for washington ←
18:20:47 <bcuencag> beijing or DC
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: beijing or DC ←
18:20:48 <Rinke> ... any preference Washington, Bejing, Sydney
... any preference Washington, Bejing, Sydney ←
18:20:59 <Rinke> JeffP: beijing
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: beijing ←
18:21:00 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:21:00 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:21:05 <MartinD> prob. washington for me
Martin Dzbor: prob. washington for me ←
18:21:10 <MichaelSmith> I prefer DC, at risk for Beijing, no to sydney
Michael Smith: I prefer DC, at risk for Beijing, no to sydney ←
18:21:23 <Carsten> I can probably neither come to Washington nor Beijing, but Sydney may be possible
Unknown Carsten: I can probably neither come to Washington nor Beijing, but Sydney may be possible ←
18:21:46 <vit> no preference for me for F2F2
Vit Novacek: no preference for me for F2F2 ←
18:21:52 <Rinke> alanr: will put the raw responses on the voting list
Alan Ruttenberg: will put the raw responses on the voting list ←
18:21:52 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:21:52 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:22:11 <Carsten> two
Unknown Carsten: two ←
18:22:17 <Rinke> IanH: it is overwhelming for Washington... two people Beijing, one Sydney, everybody else Washington
Ian Horrocks: it is overwhelming for Washington... two people Beijing, one Sydney, everybody else Washington ←
18:22:35 <Rinke> IanH: it's a no brainer... almost unanimous for Washington
Ian Horrocks: it's a no brainer... almost unanimous for Washington ←
18:22:47 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:22:50 <Rinke> ... peter can go ahead with the OWLED colocation thing? That's my proposal
... peter can go ahead with the OWLED colocation thing? That's my proposal ←
18:23:03 <IanH> PROPOSED: F2F2 will be in Washington DC
PROPOSED: F2F2 will be in Washington DC ←
18:23:07 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:23:09 <bmotik> +1
Boris Motik: +1 ←
18:23:10 <Rinke> +1
+1 ←
18:23:11 <MarkusK> +1
Markus Krötzsch: +1 ←
18:23:13 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
18:23:15 <MartinD> +1
Martin Dzbor: +1 ←
18:23:16 <ewallace> +1
Evan Wallace: +1 ←
18:23:17 <MichaelSmith> +1
Michael Smith: +1 ←
18:23:31 <Rinke> IanH: lots of agreement, no disagreement
Ian Horrocks: lots of agreement, no disagreement ←
18:23:43 <sandro> RESOLVED: F2F2 will be in Washington DC
RESOLVED: F2F2 will be in Washington DC ←
18:23:48 <Rinke> IanH: finished with the admin
Ian Horrocks: finished with the admin ←
18:24:10 <JeffP> q+ have we decided the dates on F2F2?
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q+ have we decided the dates on F2F2? ←
18:24:12 <bijan> +1 to DC
Bijan Parsia: +1 to DC ←
18:24:15 <alanr> ack alanr
Alan Ruttenberg: ack alanr ←
18:24:15 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to go back to scribing for a second
Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to go back to scribing for a second ←
18:24:19 <Rinke> alanr: if Conrad could put his work on the cleanups on the wiki
Alan Ruttenberg: if Conrad could put his work on the cleanups on the wiki ←
18:24:23 <bijan> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:24:23 <JeffP> q?
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q? ←
18:24:32 <Rinke> IanH: task forces stuff
Ian Horrocks: task forces stuff ←
18:24:49 <Rinke> IanH: it would be useful to get some feedback from them
Ian Horrocks: it would be useful to get some feedback from them ←
18:25:03 <Rinke> IanH: jeremy to say something about the UFDTF
Ian Horrocks: jeremy to say something about the UFDTF ←
18:25:05 <IanH> ?q
Ian Horrocks: ?q ←
18:25:09 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:25:10 <bijan> Yes he is :)
Bijan Parsia: Yes he is :) ←
18:25:27 <sandro> q+ testing zakim
Sandro Hawke: q+ testing zakim ←
18:25:28 <Rinke> jeremy: let me think
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: let me think ←
18:25:31 <sandro> q?
Sandro Hawke: q? ←
18:25:34 <sandro> ack
Sandro Hawke: ack ←
18:25:34 <Rinke> ... can I go second?
... can I go second? ←
18:25:41 <sandro> ack testing
Sandro Hawke: ack testing ←
18:25:43 <sandro> ack zakim
Sandro Hawke: ack zakim ←
18:25:45 <Rinke> IanH: Rich annotations? Bijan?
Ian Horrocks: Rich annotations? Bijan? ←
18:25:53 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:25:53 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:26:07 <Rinke> bijan: I wrote up a proposal, some use cases, not finished
Bijan Parsia: I wrote up a proposal, some use cases, not finished ←
18:26:18 <Rinke> ... I ran them by several people, e.g. Alan Rector
... I ran them by several people, e.g. Alan Rector ←
18:26:40 <Rinke> ... somebody wanted to use them for patterns (value partitions)
... somebody wanted to use them for patterns (value partitions) ←
18:26:49 <Rinke> ... that's fine in my proposal, haven't written it up
... that's fine in my proposal, haven't written it up ←
18:27:01 <Rinke> ... (Jeremy?) using reification for axiom annotations
... (Jeremy?) using reification for axiom annotations ←
18:27:07 <jeremy> oooh
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: oooh ←
18:27:23 <Rinke> ... I guess in that exchange with Boris one option would be to ... the anotations
... I guess in that exchange with Boris one option would be to ... the anotations ←
18:27:30 <alanr> +1 on importance of axiom annotations
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 on importance of axiom annotations ←
18:27:35 <Rinke> ... would remove a lot of the usefullness of annotations
... would remove a lot of the usefullness of annotations ←
18:27:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:27:48 <alanr> q+ to mention issue with rich annotations
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to mention issue with rich annotations ←
18:27:52 <Rinke> bijan: proposal is 90% done...
Bijan Parsia: proposal is 90% done... ←
18:28:03 <Rinke> ... would be nice to get some sense of what we're going to do with it
... would be nice to get some sense of what we're going to do with it ←
18:28:12 <Rinke> IanH: there is a fairly wellformed proposal on the table
Ian Horrocks: there is a fairly wellformed proposal on the table ←
18:28:17 <Rinke> ... please give some comments
... please give some comments ←
18:28:21 <MichaelSmith> the current proposal is http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System correct?
Michael Smith: the current proposal is http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Annotation_System correct? ←
18:28:26 <bijan> Yes
Bijan Parsia: Yes ←
18:28:33 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:28:37 <Rinke> alanr: concerned about the multiple domains of interpretation/ multiple worlds/ multiple models aspect of it
Alan Ruttenberg: concerned about the multiple domains of interpretation/ multiple worlds/ multiple models aspect of it ←
18:28:41 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:28:42 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to mention issue with rich annotations
Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to mention issue with rich annotations ←
18:28:59 <Rinke> ... part of the concern was that it's fairly new, and unexplored... want a warm fuzzy feeling that it's well understood
... part of the concern was that it's fairly new, and unexplored... want a warm fuzzy feeling that it's well understood ←
18:29:10 <bcuencag> zakim, mute me
Bernardo Cuenca Grau: zakim, mute me ←
18:29:10 <Zakim> bcuencag should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bcuencag should now be muted ←
18:29:18 <Rinke> ... second issue is that I don't know whether and how it would affect the RDF semantics
... second issue is that I don't know whether and how it would affect the RDF semantics ←
18:29:38 <Rinke> ... could you comment on how it affects the OWL Full aspect of it, in the RDF sense
... could you comment on how it affects the OWL Full aspect of it, in the RDF sense ←
18:29:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:29:48 <Rinke> bijan: I have not realised an RDF mapping
Bijan Parsia: I have not realised an RDF mapping ←
18:30:03 <Rinke> ... one could use different extensions: multiple files with pointers analogous to owl:imports
... one could use different extensions: multiple files with pointers analogous to owl:imports ←
18:30:12 <Rinke> ... minimal mutilation of everything, and easy to understand
... minimal mutilation of everything, and easy to understand ←
18:30:26 <Rinke> ... other than that: is that enough to get you going?
... other than that: is that enough to get you going? ←
18:30:43 <Rinke> alanr: yes, just to say where I am on it: how much of the proposal is dependent on that
Alan Ruttenberg: yes, just to say where I am on it: how much of the proposal is dependent on that ←
18:31:03 <Rinke> ... is that the central part of the proposal? If it's left out, what will be left?
... is that the central part of the proposal? If it's left out, what will be left? ←
18:31:20 <Rinke> bijan: it's a major part... another part is the idea to have blobs of annotations instead of nested or chained
Bijan Parsia: it's a major part... another part is the idea to have blobs of annotations instead of nested or chained ←
18:31:31 <Rinke> ... in the current anotations have to booted in the axiom
... in the current anotations have to booted in the axiom ←
18:31:51 <Rinke> ... a lot of people I talked to want to be able toa ssociate fairly elaborate structures to an entity or axiom
... a lot of people I talked to want to be able toa ssociate fairly elaborate structures to an entity or axiom ←
18:32:08 <jeremy> q+ to comment
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: q+ to comment ←
18:32:16 <Rinke> IanH: until more people have had a chance to have a look at that... we might as well leave that
Ian Horrocks: until more people have had a chance to have a look at that... we might as well leave that ←
18:32:28 <alanr> we do have it on f2f
Alan Ruttenberg: we do have it on f2f ←
18:32:31 <Rinke> bijan: suggest that it becomes an official agenda item
Bijan Parsia: suggest that it becomes an official agenda item ←
18:32:40 <Rinke> IanH: action item to go and read it?
Ian Horrocks: action item to go and read it? ←
18:33:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:33:07 <Rinke> bijan: if I know its' going to be on the agenda I could (re)start an email discussion about this
Bijan Parsia: if I know its' going to be on the agenda I could (re)start an email discussion about this ←
18:33:14 <Rinke> sandro: no need to do an action item
Sandro Hawke: no need to do an action item ←
18:33:22 <Rinke> bijan: if its on the agenda, I will start a discussion
Bijan Parsia: if its on the agenda, I will start a discussion ←
18:33:33 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:33:33 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:33:41 <Rinke> IanH: why don't you start a discussion, and if there's a significant response to that we can put it on the agenda
Ian Horrocks: why don't you start a discussion, and if there's a significant response to that we can put it on the agenda ←
18:33:42 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:33:48 <Rinke> alanr: who are the stakeholders on this?
Alan Ruttenberg: who are the stakeholders on this? ←
18:33:56 <Rinke> ... and have an action item to review this?
... and have an action item to review this? ←
18:34:05 <Rinke> ... for them (that holds for me)
... for them (that holds for me) ←
18:34:11 <MichaelSmith> I'm a stakeholder and will review
Michael Smith: I'm a stakeholder and will review ←
18:34:13 <Rinke> IanH: anyone else?
Ian Horrocks: anyone else? ←
18:34:16 <pfps> I'll stick my hand up
Peter Patel-Schneider: I'll stick my hand up ←
18:34:26 <bmotik> I will read it by next week. Does this cound as a review?
Boris Motik: I will read it by next week. Does this cound as a review? ←
18:34:34 <Rinke> alanr: more strongly, if you think it's important and you might object, you're a stakeholder
Alan Ruttenberg: more strongly, if you think it's important and you might object, you're a stakeholder ←
18:34:35 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:34:49 <IanH> ack jeremy
Ian Horrocks: ack jeremy ←
18:34:49 <Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to comment
Zakim IRC Bot: jeremy, you wanted to comment ←
18:34:52 <Rinke> IanH: why not let jeremy speak, and let people mull over whether they are stakeholders
Ian Horrocks: why not let jeremy speak, and let people mull over whether they are stakeholders ←
18:35:11 <Rinke> jeremy: by having the OWL Full semantics in multiple documents is very complicated
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: by having the OWL Full semantics in multiple documents is very complicated ←
18:35:17 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:35:18 <Rinke> ... far away from owl 1.0
... far away from owl 1.0 ←
18:35:28 <alanr> q+ to see if I understand bijan's idea
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to see if I understand bijan's idea ←
18:35:40 <ewallace> could we ask for a decision on this next week
Evan Wallace: could we ask for a decision on this next week ←
18:35:42 <Rinke> ... out of court. More about 'lets' put some wacky stuff in' instead of a conservative improvement over 1.0
... out of court. More about 'lets' put some wacky stuff in' instead of a conservative improvement over 1.0 ←
18:35:55 <bmotik> If I've understood things correctly, the idea is not to have one semantics distributed over different documents (Bijan, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Boris Motik: If I've understood things correctly, the idea is not to have one semantics distributed over different documents (Bijan, please correct me if I'm wrong). ←
18:35:55 <Rinke> IanH: you're talking yourself into being a stakeholder
Ian Horrocks: you're talking yourself into being a stakeholder ←
18:36:04 <uli> jeremy, as usual, I can't understand what you are saying -- could you please talk louder?
Uli Sattler: jeremy, as usual, I can't understand what you are saying -- could you please talk louder? ←
18:36:15 <Rinke> jeremy: just articulating how a large part of the OWL community would feel about this move away from 1.0
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: just articulating how a large part of the OWL community would feel about this move away from 1.0 ←
18:36:26 <Rinke> (me neither)
(me neither) ←
18:36:36 <bmotik> The idea is that you just have different, independent documents. They have nothing to do with each other. You can, however, query them together using, say, SPARQL.
Boris Motik: The idea is that you just have different, independent documents. They have nothing to do with each other. You can, however, query them together using, say, SPARQL. ←
18:36:46 <Rinke> jeremy: this seems a big change from 1.0 in terms of the OWL Full semantics
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: this seems a big change from 1.0 in terms of the OWL Full semantics ←
18:36:53 <Rinke> ... sounds like a non starter (?)
... sounds like a non starter (?) ←
18:36:53 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:36:59 <IanH> ack alanr
Ian Horrocks: ack alanr ←
18:36:59 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to see if I understand bijan's idea
Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to see if I understand bijan's idea ←
18:37:06 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:37:12 <Rinke> alanr: by putting it into different files, we are just making things independently and unconnected
Alan Ruttenberg: by putting it into different files, we are just making things independently and unconnected ←
18:37:22 <Rinke> ... each separately is an OWL Full document
... each separately is an OWL Full document ←
18:37:22 <bijan> that's fine
Bijan Parsia: that's fine ←
18:37:37 <bijan> That's one reasonable way to go yes
Bijan Parsia: That's one reasonable way to go yes ←
18:37:41 <Rinke> ... that correct bijan?
... that correct bijan? ←
18:37:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:37:52 <Rinke> jeremy: strikes me as a 'big' change (in the eye of the beholder)
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: strikes me as a 'big' change (in the eye of the beholder) ←
18:37:57 <Rinke> ... mouses and elephants
... mouses and elephants ←
18:38:08 <Rinke> IanH: clearly needs to be discussed in some more detail
Ian Horrocks: clearly needs to be discussed in some more detail ←
18:38:12 <bmotik> But this is really no change: each document is still interpreted as it was interpreted in OWL 1.0. You can use either Full or DL semantics, moreover.
Boris Motik: But this is really no change: each document is still interpreted as it was interpreted in OWL 1.0. You can use either Full or DL semantics, moreover. ←
18:38:15 <alanr> +1 to draft Jeremy as stakeholder :)
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 to draft Jeremy as stakeholder :) ←
18:38:22 <Rinke> ... perhaps jeremy and bijan could exchange some emails on this topic?
... perhaps jeremy and bijan could exchange some emails on this topic? ←
18:38:30 <Rinke> ... then the rest of us can eavesdrop
... then the rest of us can eavesdrop ←
18:38:34 <bijan> Fine
Bijan Parsia: Fine ←
18:38:36 <Rinke> ... how would that be?
... how would that be? ←
18:38:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:38:45 <alanr> I can be on call too...
Alan Ruttenberg: I can be on call too... ←
18:38:51 <alanr> if desired
Alan Ruttenberg: if desired ←
18:38:59 <Rinke> jeremy: not very enthusiastic, at least I get payd for it
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: not very enthusiastic, at least I get payd for it ←
18:39:06 <Rinke> IanH: I'll take that as a yes
Ian Horrocks: I'll take that as a yes ←
18:39:13 <Rinke> ... move on to datatypes
... move on to datatypes ←
18:39:25 <bijan> There was a telecon!
Bijan Parsia: There was a telecon! ←
18:39:32 <Rinke> IanH: a lot of email traffic, no taskforce...
Ian Horrocks: a lot of email traffic, no taskforce... ←
18:39:33 <bijan> There is!
Bijan Parsia: There is! ←
18:39:42 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:39:45 <Rinke> alanr: summarise where we came to in the first meeting
Alan Ruttenberg: summarise where we came to in the first meeting ←
18:39:48 <MichaelSmith> Cleaned up datatype telecon minutes at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/DataType.Telecon.2007.11.19/Minutes
Michael Smith: Cleaned up datatype telecon minutes at http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/DataType.Telecon.2007.11.19/Minutes ←
18:39:48 <Rinke> (who's this?)
(who's this?) ←
18:39:55 <alanr> Mike smith
Alan Ruttenberg: Mike smith ←
18:40:35 <Rinke> MichaelSmith: two types of external datatypes... those that include ID's which can be externally referenced, and those that can't
Michael Smith: two types of external datatypes... those that include ID's which can be externally referenced, and those that can't ←
18:40:53 <Rinke> ... on the first we are waiting on the XML Schema wg
... on the first we are waiting on the XML Schema wg ←
18:40:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:41:07 <Rinke> (on the second)
(on the second) ←
18:41:16 <MichaelSmith> to modify structural specification to require the approach described in http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#sec-id-attr when referencing external XML Schema definitions with id attributes
Michael Smith: to modify structural specification to require the approach described in http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#sec-id-attr when referencing external XML Schema definitions with id attributes ←
18:41:29 <Rinke> ... moving forward on the approach outlined in the best practices document for the case where we do have IDs
... moving forward on the approach outlined in the best practices document for the case where we do have IDs ←
18:41:47 <Rinke> IanH: what kinds of things wouldn't we be able to do without ID's
Ian Horrocks: what kinds of things wouldn't we be able to do without ID's ←
18:41:48 <jeremy> referencing externalk datatypes defined by someone else
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: referencing externalk datatypes defined by someone else ←
18:41:51 <alanr> big file of anonymous datatypes
Alan Ruttenberg: big file of anonymous datatypes ←
18:41:54 <alanr> external
Alan Ruttenberg: external ←
18:42:15 <Rinke> MikeSmith: perfectly valid xml schema exists without IDs... if you want to reuse such schema types you have a problem
Michael Smith: perfectly valid xml schema exists without IDs... if you want to reuse such schema types you have a problem ←
18:42:17 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:42:22 <Rinke> ... on the semantic web
... on the semantic web ←
18:42:27 <bijan> So one would have to cut and paste that datatype definition into a different file
Bijan Parsia: So one would have to cut and paste that datatype definition into a different file ←
18:42:39 <Rinke> ... if the author does have the semweb in mind, we have a solution.
... if the author does have the semweb in mind, we have a solution. ←
18:42:44 <Rinke> ... from the best practices
... from the best practices ←
18:42:52 <Rinke> IanH: we won't lose expressivity, just some rework
Ian Horrocks: we won't lose expressivity, just some rework ←
18:42:57 <alanr> literal inclusion of the file within the OWL file
Alan Ruttenberg: literal inclusion of the file within the OWL file ←
18:43:11 <bijan> Yes
Bijan Parsia: Yes ←
18:43:13 <Rinke> MikeSmith: yes, about reusing existing XML schema definitions
Michael Smith: yes, about reusing existing XML schema definitions ←
18:43:17 <Rinke> IanH: unary datatypes?
Ian Horrocks: unary datatypes? ←
18:43:31 <Rinke> MikeSmith: yes, the external datatypes only discussed about unary datatypes
Michael Smith: yes, the external datatypes only discussed about unary datatypes ←
18:43:40 <Rinke> ... one other thing, that we discussed
... one other thing, that we discussed ←
18:43:53 <Rinke> ... don't know if we want to put that in to a proposal first or...
... don't know if we want to put that in to a proposal first or... ←
18:44:03 <Rinke> IanH: try us with the other item first
Ian Horrocks: try us with the other item first ←
18:44:07 <jeremy> (at the telecon - some e-mail traffic on n-ary)
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: (at the telecon - some e-mail traffic on n-ary) ←
18:44:20 <Rinke> MikeSmith: inline xml as opposed to what is in the member submission
Michael Smith: inline xml as opposed to what is in the member submission ←
18:44:21 <MichaelSmith> Issues with XML Schema in thread starting at http://www.w3.org/mid/474203BC.50307@hpl.hp.com and with attempted summary at http://www.w3.org/mid/1195586107.6320.52.camel@msmith-laptop
Michael Smith: Issues with XML Schema in thread starting at http://www.w3.org/mid/474203BC.50307@hpl.hp.com and with attempted summary at http://www.w3.org/mid/1195586107.6320.52.camel@msmith-laptop ←
18:44:28 <Rinke> ... I think it hit some kind of completion point
... I think it hit some kind of completion point ←
18:44:34 <Rinke> ... we understand what could be done,
... we understand what could be done, ←
18:44:50 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:44:53 <Rinke> ... if we want to use xml schema types inline, ...
... if we want to use xml schema types inline, ... ←
18:45:04 <Rinke> ... we need feedback from people about this
... we need feedback from people about this ←
18:45:08 <bijan> I got negative feedback from OWL API/Protege4 author Matthew Horridge
Bijan Parsia: I got negative feedback from OWL API/Protege4 author Matthew Horridge ←
18:45:10 <jeremy> I'll ask HP implementors
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: I'll ask HP implementors ←
18:45:17 <Rinke> IanH: another case where people need to have a look and get feedback
Ian Horrocks: another case where people need to have a look and get feedback ←
18:45:19 <JeffP> q+ unary datatype
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Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q+ unary datatype ←
18:45:21 <bijan> I would expect negative feedback from TopQuadrent (Holger)
Bijan Parsia: I would expect negative feedback from TopQuadrent (Holger) ←
18:45:31 <bijan> Oh, xml schema syntax inline
Bijan Parsia: Oh, xml schema syntax inline ←
18:45:32 <Rinke> IanH: negative with respect to which option?
Ian Horrocks: negative with respect to which option? ←
18:45:36 <JeffP> q?
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q? ←
18:45:45 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:45:54 <Rinke> alanr: I was advocating taking this as our first point strictly from a simplicity point of view
Alan Ruttenberg: I was advocating taking this as our first point strictly from a simplicity point of view ←
18:46:03 <IanH> ack unary
Ian Horrocks: ack unary ←
18:46:08 <IanH> ack datatype
Ian Horrocks: ack datatype ←
18:46:14 <bijan> q+ to talk about schema syntax
Bijan Parsia: q+ to talk about schema syntax ←
18:46:17 <JeffP> q+
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: q+ ←
18:46:22 <Rinke> ... doesn't require any vocabulary, might reduce the load at the expence of annoying but sufferable softare adaptations
... doesn't require any vocabulary, might reduce the load at the expence of annoying but sufferable softare adaptations ←
18:46:29 <pfps> well, what about all the corner cases in having inline XML Schema content?
Peter Patel-Schneider: well, what about all the corner cases in having inline XML Schema content? ←
18:46:37 <Rinke> IanH: first bijan, then jeffP
Ian Horrocks: first bijan, then jeffP ←
18:46:38 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:46:38 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:46:44 <IanH> ack bijan
Ian Horrocks: ack bijan ←
18:46:44 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to talk about schema syntax
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to talk about schema syntax ←
18:47:01 <Rinke> bijan: I originally was thinking that using the XML schema syntax would be useful even with its limitations
Bijan Parsia: I originally was thinking that using the XML schema syntax would be useful even with its limitations ←
18:47:17 <Rinke> ... main argument against it: if we use XSD it restricts us in how we...
... main argument against it: if we use XSD it restricts us in how we... ←
18:47:24 <Rinke> ... would be apply new datatypes such as rational
... would be apply new datatypes such as rational ←
18:47:34 <Rinke> ... we could change it, but XSD guys might not like that
... we could change it, but XSD guys might not like that ←
18:47:56 <Rinke> ... unary datatypes with definitions, and totally different for n-ary: two different syntaxes
... unary datatypes with definitions, and totally different for n-ary: two different syntaxes ←
18:48:01 <Rinke> ... if we do it ourselves
... if we do it ourselves ←
18:48:09 <jeremy> how about noting the issue and coming back to it in a few months?
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: how about noting the issue and coming back to it in a few months? ←
18:48:23 <Rinke> ... some advantages if we do it ourselves, otherwise we have to take the XSD WG into account
... some advantages if we do it ourselves, otherwise we have to take the XSD WG into account ←
18:48:41 <alanr> q?
Alan Ruttenberg: q? ←
18:48:42 <Rinke> ... if we make our home-made one it would probably be more uniform and more under control
... if we make our home-made one it would probably be more uniform and more under control ←
18:48:51 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:48:51 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:48:53 <Rinke> IanH: sounds like a convincing argument
Ian Horrocks: sounds like a convincing argument ←
18:48:55 <alanr> q+ to ask whether we *at least* need to support XML syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: q+ to ask whether we *at least* need to support XML syntax ←
18:48:59 <IanH> ack jeffp
Ian Horrocks: ack jeffp ←
18:49:00 <jeremy> agree with ian no premature decision
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: agree with ian no premature decision ←
18:49:05 <Rinke> JeffP: question for mike... can we see the unions as well?
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Unknown JeffP: question for mike... can we see the unions as well? ←
18:49:15 <Rinke> MikeSmith: there hasn't been a proposal to include unions no
Michael Smith: there hasn't been a proposal to include unions no ←
18:49:31 <Rinke> JeffP: if we don't have unions for datatypes. Won't we have too complicated datatypes
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Unknown JeffP: if we don't have unions for datatypes. Won't we have too complicated datatypes ←
18:49:47 <bijan> With external datatypes they could use union,a faict
Bijan Parsia: With external datatypes they could use union,a faict ←
18:49:49 <Rinke> ... users might really want to reuse existing datatypes that they have
... users might really want to reuse existing datatypes that they have ←
18:50:07 <Rinke> IanH: if people don't use unions, then ...
Ian Horrocks: if people don't use unions, then ... ←
18:50:10 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:50:10 <Rinke> (sorry missed that)
(sorry missed that) ←
18:50:11 <uli> but we had counter-examples for this, Jeff!
Uli Sattler: but we had counter-examples for this, Jeff! ←
18:50:28 <IanH> ack alan
Ian Horrocks: ack alan ←
18:50:28 <Zakim> alanr, you wanted to ask whether we *at least* need to support XML syntax
Zakim IRC Bot: alanr, you wanted to ask whether we *at least* need to support XML syntax ←
18:50:29 <pfps> -1 to requiring XML syntax
Peter Patel-Schneider: -1 to requiring XML syntax ←
18:50:30 <Rinke> alanr: might at least support the XML syntax. At least vs. might
Alan Ruttenberg: might at least support the XML syntax. At least vs. might ←
18:50:43 <JeffP> uli, could you send a pointer?
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Unknown JeffP: uli, could you send a pointer? ←
18:51:08 <uli> Jeff, no - somewhere in the list of emails flying past
Uli Sattler: Jeff, no - somewhere in the list of emails flying past ←
18:51:11 <Rinke> IanH: if pople don't use unions, then the kinds of datatypes thay would be defining would be very simple, then not referencing
Ian Horrocks: if pople don't use unions, then the kinds of datatypes thay would be defining would be very simple, then not referencing ←
18:51:16 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:51:26 <Rinke> ... external datatypes using wouldn't be so much of an issue
... external datatypes using wouldn't be so much of an issue ←
18:51:35 <Rinke> IanH: Mike was saying something about a proposal
Ian Horrocks: Mike was saying something about a proposal ←
18:51:39 <JeffP> uli, which email in the mailing list?
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Unknown JeffP: uli, which email in the mailing list? ←
18:51:43 <MichaelSmith> to modify structural specification to require the approach described in http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#sec-id-attr when referencing external XML Schema definitions with id attributes
Michael Smith: to modify structural specification to require the approach described in http://www.w3.org/TR/swbp-xsch-datatypes/#sec-id-attr when referencing external XML Schema definitions with id attributes ←
18:51:52 <Rinke> MikeSmith: proposal for modifying structural specificaiton
Michael Smith: proposal for modifying structural specificaiton ←
18:51:53 <bijan> +1 to this proposal
Bijan Parsia: +1 to this proposal ←
18:51:58 <jeremy> +1
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Unknown jeremy: +1 ←
18:52:07 <jeremy> (look jeremy and bijan agree!)
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Unknown jeremy: (look jeremy and bijan agree!) ←
18:52:14 <JeffP> :-)
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Unknown JeffP: :-) ←
18:52:41 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
18:52:43 <Rinke> IanH: that must mean everyone else is on board as well
Ian Horrocks: that must mean everyone else is on board as well ←
18:52:51 <MartinD> sounds reasonable :-)
Martin Dzbor: sounds reasonable :-) ←
18:53:01 <Rinke> ... this would need to be formed into a proposal that we might resolve
... this would need to be formed into a proposal that we might resolve ←
18:53:09 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:53:09 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
18:53:16 <bijan> q+
Bijan Parsia: q+ ←
18:53:20 <jeremy> q+ to note normativity (lack of)
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Unknown jeremy: q+ to note normativity (lack of) ←
18:53:21 <Rinke> alanr: is there a section that we could read, a section that says everything about it?
Alan Ruttenberg: is there a section that we could read, a section that says everything about it? ←
18:53:34 <Rinke> MikeSmith: the alternative would be to insert text into the structural document
Michael Smith: the alternative would be to insert text into the structural document ←
18:53:44 <alanr> I like this
Alan Ruttenberg: I like this ←
18:53:50 <bijan> +1 to doing the edit
Bijan Parsia: +1 to doing the edit ←
18:53:51 <pfps> -1 to this proposal, as OWL 1.1 already has an adequate solution
Peter Patel-Schneider: -1 to this proposal, as OWL 1.1 already has an adequate solution ←
18:53:52 <alanr> that, ians suggestion
Alan Ruttenberg: that, ians suggestion ←
18:53:53 <jeremy> I prefer inserting text
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Unknown jeremy: I prefer inserting text ←
18:53:58 <Rinke> IanH: add it to the document, and then come back with a proposal to accept the edit in the document
Ian Horrocks: add it to the document, and then come back with a proposal to accept the edit in the document ←
18:54:01 <bijan> q-
Bijan Parsia: q- ←
18:54:10 <pfps> zakim, unmute me
Peter Patel-Schneider: zakim, unmute me ←
18:54:10 <Zakim> pfps should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: pfps should no longer be muted ←
18:54:10 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:54:11 <Rinke> alanr: please comment in sandro's format
Alan Ruttenberg: please comment in sandro's format ←
18:54:14 <jeremy> q-
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Unknown jeremy: q- ←
18:54:31 <Rinke> IanH: peter objects? but I guess that when you come back with the proposal to accept your editing...
Ian Horrocks: peter objects? but I guess that when you come back with the proposal to accept your editing... ←
18:54:39 <Rinke> pfps: the message stands for itself
Peter Patel-Schneider: the message stands for itself ←
18:54:58 <Rinke> ... owl 1.1 already has its own syntax solution which eliminates the need for hacked-up xml schema documents
... owl 1.1 already has its own syntax solution which eliminates the need for hacked-up xml schema documents ←
18:55:09 <Rinke> alanr: there is our own syntax for defining datatypes?
Alan Ruttenberg: there is our own syntax for defining datatypes? ←
18:55:20 <Rinke> ... a requirement is to be able to reuse other people's documents...
... a requirement is to be able to reuse other people's documents... ←
18:55:30 <jeremy> q+ to respond to peter
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Unknown jeremy: q+ to respond to peter ←
18:55:30 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:55:33 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
18:55:33 <Zakim> bijan was not muted, bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan was not muted, bijan ←
18:55:36 <Rinke> pfps: there's a vanishingly small number of xsd documents in that form
Peter Patel-Schneider: there's a vanishingly small number of xsd documents in that form ←
18:55:40 <Rinke> alanr: bijan?
Alan Ruttenberg: bijan? ←
18:55:46 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:56:02 <Rinke> bijan: not so much about reusing... I would be perfectly reasonable to define my own datatypes in xml schema.
Bijan Parsia: not so much about reusing... I would be perfectly reasonable to define my own datatypes in xml schema. ←
18:56:19 <Rinke> ... I have reasons for doing them inline sometimes, and for doing them outline in some cases
... I have reasons for doing them inline sometimes, and for doing them outline in some cases ←
18:56:21 <IanH> ack jeremy
Ian Horrocks: ack jeremy ←
18:56:21 <Zakim> jeremy, you wanted to respond to peter
Zakim IRC Bot: jeremy, you wanted to respond to peter ←
18:56:21 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
18:56:23 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
18:56:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:56:35 <Rinke> jeremy: the data may well be useful for an owl or webservice application
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Unknown jeremy: the data may well be useful for an owl or webservice application ←
18:56:42 <bmotik> XML Schema is a really complex specification, though.
Boris Motik: XML Schema is a really complex specification, though. ←
18:56:44 <JeffP> +1 for reuse xml schema datatypes
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Unknown JeffP: +1 for reuse xml schema datatypes ←
18:56:56 <Rinke> ... since the rest of the world reads xml datatypes already, we might as well do it ourselves as well
... since the rest of the world reads xml datatypes already, we might as well do it ourselves as well ←
18:57:06 <Rinke> ... yes, it's awful, but that's life
... yes, it's awful, but that's life ←
18:57:19 <bmotik> I don't understand quite what exactly is mean with "reusing XML Schema datatypes".
Boris Motik: I don't understand quite what exactly is mean with "reusing XML Schema datatypes". ←
18:57:22 <Rinke> IanH: bijan and jeremy are saying that there isn't actually a huge cost to it?
Ian Horrocks: bijan and jeremy are saying that there isn't actually a huge cost to it? ←
18:57:38 <Rinke> ... we just need to add id's
... we just need to add id's ←
18:57:49 <Carsten> and by the user
Unknown Carsten: and by the user ←
18:57:50 <bijan> Boris, I currently can create a set of XML Schema datatypes using XML Schema
Bijan Parsia: Boris, I currently can create a set of XML Schema datatypes using XML Schema ←
18:57:51 <Rinke> alanr: the documents need to be understood by the reasoners that support them
Alan Ruttenberg: the documents need to be understood by the reasoners that support them ←
18:57:52 <bijan> Why not?
Bijan Parsia: Why not? ←
18:57:55 <bijan> Er
Bijan Parsia: Er ←
18:57:57 <bijan> Why not use that?
Bijan Parsia: Why not use that? ←
18:58:10 <Rinke> IanH: the added overhead for implementers is that they need to add support for xml datatypes
Ian Horrocks: the added overhead for implementers is that they need to add support for xml datatypes ←
18:58:20 <Rinke> pfps: you are going to require them to do that
Peter Patel-Schneider: you are going to require them to do that ←
18:58:32 <Rinke> MikeSmith: if you do reference them, you do it in the required way
Michael Smith: if you do reference them, you do it in the required way ←
18:58:33 <bmotik> But are these only the elementary data types (sting etc), or are we including the complex datatypes as well (elements, complexType, etc.)?
Boris Motik: But are these only the elementary data types (sting etc), or are we including the complex datatypes as well (elements, complexType, etc.)? ←
18:58:39 <jeremy> there may be an issue with some facets
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Unknown jeremy: there may be an issue with some facets ←
18:58:57 <Rinke> alanr: add a delimited specific set of datatypes... but implementers could hook into the syntax to support more complex datatypes
Alan Ruttenberg: add a delimited specific set of datatypes... but implementers could hook into the syntax to support more complex datatypes ←
18:59:04 <bijan> bmotik, yes, the imported datatype must be legal in OWL 1.1
Bijan Parsia: bmotik, yes, the imported datatype must be legal in OWL 1.1 ←
18:59:05 <jeremy> simple types only
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Unknown jeremy: simple types only ←
18:59:05 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
18:59:12 <JeffP> boris, I think we mean simple types only
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Unknown JeffP: boris, I think we mean simple types only ←
18:59:15 <Rinke> MikeSmith: owl 1.0 docs are a little bit inconsistend (integer + string, another doc has a longer list)
Michael Smith: owl 1.0 docs are a little bit inconsistend (integer + string, another doc has a longer list) ←
18:59:29 <Rinke> ... we are not really clear on what's required for implementors and what's not
... we are not really clear on what's required for implementors and what's not ←
18:59:36 <bijan> But if an implemented handled something more expressive, e.g., union, it seems harmless to let them address it by Id
Bijan Parsia: But if an implemented handled something more expressive, e.g., union, it seems harmless to let them address it by Id ←
18:59:36 <Rinke> ... maybe clarifying that is important
... maybe clarifying that is important ←
18:59:51 <bmotik> Referencing an external .xsd document from OWL parsers might be a pain for implementors.
Boris Motik: Referencing an external .xsd document from OWL parsers might be a pain for implementors. ←
18:59:55 <Rinke> IanH: a side chat between boris and jeff, trying to clarify whether we are only talking SimpleTypes
Ian Horrocks: a side chat between boris and jeff, trying to clarify whether we are only talking SimpleTypes ←
19:00:04 <jeremy> q+
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: q+ ←
19:00:13 <Rinke> ... I was presuming we're talking about more complex types, not unions, but facets
... I was presuming we're talking about more complex types, not unions, but facets ←
19:00:34 <Rinke> MikeSmith: when I was responding to Jeff, I was talking about inline... now we're talking about external datatypes
Michael Smith: when I was responding to Jeff, I was talking about inline... now we're talking about external datatypes ←
19:00:37 <bmotik> What is "external"?
Boris Motik: What is "external"? ←
19:00:47 <bijan> I.e., defined in an XML Schema file
Bijan Parsia: I.e., defined in an XML Schema file ←
19:00:56 <Rinke> ... I don't think there was a proposal to restrict what kinds of external xsd datatypes are allowed
... I don't think there was a proposal to restrict what kinds of external xsd datatypes are allowed ←
19:00:58 <bijan> q+ to say "no to complex stuff"
Bijan Parsia: q+ to say "no to complex stuff" ←
19:01:22 <bijan> +1 to jeremy's point about complex types
Bijan Parsia: +1 to jeremy's point about complex types ←
19:01:22 <bmotik> What exactly could you write in this external document? Could you do much more than just apply factes?
Boris Motik: What exactly could you write in this external document? Could you do much more than just apply factes? ←
19:01:24 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:01:28 <Rinke> IanH: reuse the external xsd in your owl file
Ian Horrocks: reuse the external xsd in your owl file ←
19:01:29 <IanH> ack jeremy
Ian Horrocks: ack jeremy ←
19:01:41 <Rinke> jeremy: complextype and simpletype are technical terms
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Unknown jeremy: complextype and simpletype are technical terms ←
19:01:49 <Rinke> jeremy: a simpletype can be very complicated
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Unknown jeremy: a simpletype can be very complicated ←
19:01:51 <bijan> I could define a type hierachy
Bijan Parsia: I could define a type hierachy ←
19:01:56 <Rinke> IanH: complicated rather than complex them
Ian Horrocks: complicated rather than complex them ←
19:02:02 <bijan> I coudl define complex types, but they wouldn't be usable in OWL
Bijan Parsia: I coudl define complex types, but they wouldn't be usable in OWL ←
19:02:04 <Rinke> ... does this answer boris' questions?
... does this answer boris' questions? ←
19:02:13 <bmotik> More or less.
Boris Motik: More or less. ←
19:02:17 <Rinke> ... perhaps Boris could say whether he understands everything now?
... perhaps Boris could say whether he understands everything now? ←
19:02:17 <bmotik> What is a type hierachy?
Boris Motik: What is a type hierachy? ←
19:02:20 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:02:24 <bijan> ack bijan
Bijan Parsia: ack bijan ←
19:02:25 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to say "no to complex stuff"
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to say "no to complex stuff" ←
19:02:53 <Rinke> bijan: we need to be a little bit careful wrt the types you are about to reference are types that are 'allowed'
Bijan Parsia: we need to be a little bit careful wrt the types you are about to reference are types that are 'allowed' ←
19:03:05 <Rinke> ... presumably no current reasoner can do anything with it
... presumably no current reasoner can do anything with it ←
19:03:18 <Rinke> ... the type that you reference must be definable in the inline syntax as well
... the type that you reference must be definable in the inline syntax as well ←
19:03:25 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:03:39 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:03:39 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
19:03:40 <Rinke> ... qnames wouldn't be types you can use and dereference from
... qnames wouldn't be types you can use and dereference from ←
19:03:46 <Rinke> IanH: clarified a lot for me
Ian Horrocks: clarified a lot for me ←
19:03:53 <bijan> Boris, I can define a string type that is a subclass of xsd:string
Bijan Parsia: Boris, I can define a string type that is a subclass of xsd:string ←
19:03:54 <Rinke> ... action on Mike
... action on Mike ←
19:03:56 <bijan> And subclasses of that
Bijan Parsia: And subclasses of that ←
19:03:59 <bijan> Etc.
Bijan Parsia: Etc. ←
19:04:04 <Rinke> ... to make a change that encapsulates his proposal
... to make a change that encapsulates his proposal ←
19:04:23 <Rinke> IanH: skipped over the user facing documents
Ian Horrocks: skipped over the user facing documents ←
19:04:27 <Zakim> +Vipul_Kashyap
Zakim IRC Bot: +Vipul_Kashyap ←
19:04:28 <bmotik> Wiki question: can we approve changes out-of-order?
Boris Motik: Wiki question: can we approve changes out-of-order? ←
19:04:28 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:04:39 <Rinke> jeremy: three telecons so far
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Unknown jeremy: three telecons so far ←
19:04:56 <bmotik> For example, if two people make changes in one order, but we want to approve them in different order (or even roll-back one change), is this possible, and if so, how?
Boris Motik: For example, if two people make changes in one order, but we want to approve them in different order (or even roll-back one change), is this possible, and if so, how? ←
19:04:59 <Rinke> ... quite a lot of disagreement, the main point of the telecons was sharing and exchanging views
... quite a lot of disagreement, the main point of the telecons was sharing and exchanging views ←
19:05:01 <bijan> Re: numerics, I've been working on an explantion document in support of datatypes and n-ary predicates: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics
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Unknown Re: numerics, I've been working on an explantion document in support of datatypes and n-ary predicates: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/OWL_Numerics [ Scribe Assist by Bijan Parsia ] ←
19:05:13 <Rinke> ... agreement on different users prefer docs in terms of their domain and use cases
... agreement on different users prefer docs in terms of their domain and use cases ←
19:05:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:05:23 <Rinke> ... risk that we like to produce more docs than we could
... risk that we like to produce more docs than we could ←
19:05:40 <Rinke> ... some members are keen on docs that represent user communities
... some members are keen on docs that represent user communities ←
19:05:53 <Rinke> ... another opinion is that we should produce very little
... another opinion is that we should produce very little ←
19:06:08 <Rinke> ... another point of disagreement is to do with what the overview should look like
... another point of disagreement is to do with what the overview should look like ←
19:06:12 <bijan> Well, part of that view (which is mine) is there is other venues which are, perhaps, more appropriate
Bijan Parsia: Well, part of that view (which is mine) is there is other venues which are, perhaps, more appropriate ←
19:06:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:06:22 <Rinke> ... input is owl 1.0: brief summary + list of constructs
... input is owl 1.0: brief summary + list of constructs ←
19:06:32 <Rinke> ... owl 1.1 summary which is much briefer
... owl 1.1 summary which is much briefer ←
19:06:46 <Rinke> ... not anywhere near resolving anytime soon
... not anywhere near resolving anytime soon ←
19:07:04 <Rinke> ... a further issue is that non-wg members have interesting work that they would like to contribute to the group
... a further issue is that non-wg members have interesting work that they would like to contribute to the group ←
19:07:24 <Rinke> ... how much can we interact with people not on the wg
... how much can we interact with people not on the wg ←
19:07:51 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:07:53 <Rinke> IanH: not really a constraint on interaction, but if the cdocuments reflect a lot of their input, then their names could not be on the docs
Ian Horrocks: not really a constraint on interaction, but if the cdocuments reflect a lot of their input, then their names could not be on the docs ←
19:08:05 <alanr> I thought it was Jeremy that was following up...
Alan Ruttenberg: I thought it was Jeremy that was following up... ←
19:08:11 <Rinke> Vipul: sent anemail to michel and ... as to what their expectations are
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Unknown Vipul: sent anemail to michel and ... as to what their expectations are ←
19:08:19 <jeremy> i asked sandro
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: i asked sandro ←
19:08:37 <Rinke> IanH: fair to say, ongoing, progress is made, but significant issues?
Ian Horrocks: fair to say, ongoing, progress is made, but significant issues? ←
19:08:44 <alanr> also there are action items for UFDTF
Alan Ruttenberg: also there are action items for UFDTF ←
19:08:56 <Rinke> jeremy: for the overall taskforce, yes, I think we're making disappointingly small progress so far
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Unknown jeremy: for the overall taskforce, yes, I think we're making disappointingly small progress so far ←
19:09:11 <alanr> Alan is more optimistic than Jeremy, but that may expose a flaw ...
Alan Ruttenberg: Alan is more optimistic than Jeremy, but that may expose a flaw ... ←
19:09:14 <Rinke> Vipul: one thing we did agree on is to identify the set of users that would
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Unknown Vipul: one thing we did agree on is to identify the set of users that would ←
19:09:22 <alanr> in Alan's optimism
Alan Ruttenberg: in Alan's optimism ←
19:09:23 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:09:28 <Rinke> ... be targeted by these docs
... be targeted by these docs ←
19:09:45 <Rinke> ... CIO's Enterprise Architects, developers: list on an external website
... CIO's Enterprise Architects, developers: list on an external website ←
19:09:59 <alanr> Also started page trying to define who the targets of the documentation are
Alan Ruttenberg: Also started page trying to define who the targets of the documentation are ←
19:10:09 <Rinke> IanH: we'll be discussing this more on the F2F... hopefully more progress on these issues
Ian Horrocks: we'll be discussing this more on the F2F... hopefully more progress on these issues ←
19:10:12 <Rinke> ... then
... then ←
19:10:16 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Who_Reads_Our_Documents ←
19:10:42 <Rinke> IanH: issues ... first is Issue 13: quotation and CURIES
Ian Horrocks: issues ... first is ISSUE-13: quotation and CURIES ←
19:10:52 <Rinke> sandro: CURIES as in Marie Curie
Sandro Hawke: CURIES as in Marie Curie ←
19:11:23 <Rinke> alanr: peter and I had a breef discussion about our original decision to use SPARQL
Alan Ruttenberg: peter and I had a breef discussion about our original decision to use SPARQL ←
19:11:28 <bijan> Nasty in the RDF/XML yes?
Bijan Parsia: Nasty in the RDF/XML yes? ←
19:11:29 <jeremy> Did sparql not use CURIE because it wasn't reaching REC any time soon?
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: Did sparql not use CURIE because it wasn't reaching REC any time soon? ←
19:11:35 <Rinke> ... peter thought it was limited, suggested to go for full CURIES instead
... peter thought it was limited, suggested to go for full CURIES instead ←
19:11:43 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:11:47 <Rinke> ... no problem: a dependency as they're not a standard yet
... no problem: a dependency as they're not a standard yet ←
19:12:11 <Rinke> ... if others think that CURIES are good, then I'm happy too
... if others think that CURIES are good, then I'm happy too ←
19:12:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:12:20 <Rinke> IanH: are we in a position that we could resolve
Ian Horrocks: are we in a position that we could resolve ←
19:12:34 <Rinke> sandro: the state of CURIES, we don't know they're ever going to be a rec
Sandro Hawke: the state of CURIES, we don't know they're ever going to be a rec ←
19:12:42 <bijan> q+ to ask where would we use these
Bijan Parsia: q+ to ask where would we use these ←
19:12:48 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:12:50 <Rinke> pfps: we could pull the stuff out of the CURIE spec
Peter Patel-Schneider: we could pull the stuff out of the CURIE spec ←
19:13:01 <jeremy> pfps: we could copy/paste CURIE text if they do not reach REVC
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Peter Patel-Schneider: we could copy/paste CURIE text if they do not reach REVC [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jeremy ] ←
19:13:06 <Rinke> alanr: someone from the group suggested we might monitor this
Alan Ruttenberg: someone from the group suggested we might monitor this ←
19:13:14 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:13:21 <Rinke> ... and do a fallback when it turns out to not become a rec
... and do a fallback when it turns out to not become a rec ←
19:13:28 <jeremy> I'll Dave tomorrow
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: I'll Dave tomorrow ←
19:13:38 <jeremy> ^ask^
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: ^ask^ ←
19:13:47 <bijan> ack bijan
Bijan Parsia: ack bijan ←
19:13:49 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to ask where would we use these
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to ask where would we use these ←
19:13:54 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:13:58 <Rinke> sandro: in RIF there was some discussion, in the end decided not to... not relevant...?
Sandro Hawke: in RIF there was some discussion, in the end decided not to... not relevant...? ←
19:14:17 <jeremy> q+
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Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: q+ ←
19:14:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:14:22 <Rinke> bijan: if CURIES are not legal element names, then how would this effect the RDF serialisation
Bijan Parsia: if CURIES are not legal element names, then how would this effect the RDF serialisation ←
19:14:34 <MichaelSmith> I see CURIs in RIF BLD at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/draft-2007-10-30#head-7c71117f168aef019182ae8e8ad8bc542c76868d
Michael Smith: I see CURIs in RIF BLD at http://www.w3.org/2005/rules/wg/bld/draft-2007-10-30#head-7c71117f168aef019182ae8e8ad8bc542c76868d ←
19:14:42 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:14:42 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
19:14:43 <Rinke> ... probably would require additional processing
... probably would require additional processing ←
19:14:44 <sandro> right -- CURIE in AS, or in some of the serializations?
Sandro Hawke: right -- CURIE in AS, or in some of the serializations? ←
19:15:00 <bijan> That doesn't always work
Bijan Parsia: That doesn't always work ←
19:15:12 <Rinke> alanr: if the local part is not a valid part of a qname then it's expanded to an escaped uri
Alan Ruttenberg: if the local part is not a valid part of a qname then it's expanded to an escaped uri ←
19:15:17 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:15:19 <bijan> no that doesn't make sense
Bijan Parsia: no that doesn't make sense ←
19:15:26 <Rinke> ... I don't create extra namespaces, I fully quote them (in angle brackets)
... I don't create extra namespaces, I fully quote them (in angle brackets) ←
19:15:30 <IanH> ack jeremy
Ian Horrocks: ack jeremy ←
19:15:45 <bijan> Yes, i.e., properties
Bijan Parsia: Yes, i.e., properties ←
19:15:50 <alanr> pmid:1234 -> <http://purl.org/.../1234>
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Unknown pmid: 1234 -> <http://purl.org/.../1234> [ Scribe Assist by Alan Ruttenberg ] ←
19:15:51 <Rinke> jeremy: certain uris that might occur as property uris can not be serialised as RDF uris
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Unknown jeremy: certain uris that might occur as property uris can not be serialised as RDF uris ←
19:16:05 <bmotik> Metaquestion: do we expect people to use the functional-style syntax directly? If not (i.e., if this syntax is used just in the spec), do we care about abbreviating URIs?
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Unknown Metaquestion: do we expect people to use the functional-style syntax directly? If not (i.e., if this syntax is used just in the spec), do we care about abbreviating URIs? [ Scribe Assist by Boris Motik ] ←
19:16:06 <bijan> q+ to reply
Bijan Parsia: q+ to reply ←
19:16:10 <Rinke> ... in alan's cases we're talking about subject/object uris, in that case no problem
... in alan's cases we're talking about subject/object uris, in that case no problem ←
19:16:17 <alanr> can always use description/about
Alan Ruttenberg: can always use description/about ←
19:16:24 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
19:16:26 <Rinke> ... in predicate position some curies cannot be serialised in RDF/XML
... in predicate position some curies cannot be serialised in RDF/XML ←
19:16:30 <bijan> zakim, ack bijan
Bijan Parsia: zakim, ack bijan ←
19:16:30 <Zakim> unmuting bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: unmuting bijan ←
19:16:31 <Zakim> bijan, you wanted to reply
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan, you wanted to reply ←
19:16:32 <Zakim> I see no one on the speaker queue
Zakim IRC Bot: I see no one on the speaker queue ←
19:16:39 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:16:40 <Rinke> ... this a known limitation in RDF/XML, and we should ignore it
... this a known limitation in RDF/XML, and we should ignore it ←
19:16:52 <Rinke> bijan: that's fine jeremy, that's what I wanted to know
Bijan Parsia: that's fine jeremy, that's what I wanted to know ←
19:17:01 <Rinke> ... if that's ok with you, then I'm fine with it
... if that's ok with you, then I'm fine with it ←
19:17:09 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:17:09 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
19:17:14 <Rinke> jeremy: RDF/XML went to REC with this as a known bug
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: RDF/XML went to REC with this as a known bug ←
19:17:37 <sandro> q+ to repeat the AS vs CS quest
Sandro Hawke: q+ to repeat the AS vs CS quest ←
19:17:40 <IanH> PROPOSED: to base abbreviated URIs on CURIES not QNAMES
PROPOSED: to base abbreviated URIs on CURIES not QNAMES ←
19:17:40 <Rinke> alanr: you can already use an arbitrary URI already in OWL 1.1 which cannot be serialised as RDf
Alan Ruttenberg: you can already use an arbitrary URI already in OWL 1.1 which cannot be serialised as RDf ←
19:17:53 <Rinke> jeremy: not an OWL problem, an RDF problem
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: not an OWL problem, an RDF problem ←
19:17:53 <bijan> But curies don't help in RDF/XML *at all*
Bijan Parsia: But curies don't help in RDF/XML *at all* ←
19:18:01 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:18:07 <Rinke> sandro: is this just about the abstract syntax?
Sandro Hawke: is this just about the abstract syntax? ←
19:18:16 <Rinke> alanr: only effect the functional syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: only effect the functional syntax ←
19:18:26 <jeremy> I would perhaps change my position after discussion with colleagues (dave and andy)
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: I would perhaps change my position after discussion with colleagues (dave and andy) ←
19:18:38 <bmotik> functional sytax
Boris Motik: functional sytax ←
19:18:42 <bmotik> structural specification
Boris Motik: structural specification ←
19:18:43 <Rinke> IanH: structural syntax
Ian Horrocks: structural syntax ←
19:18:48 <Rinke> alanr: functional style syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: functional style syntax ←
19:18:49 <IanH> PROPOSED: to base functional style syntax abbreviated URIs on CURIES not QNAMES
PROPOSED: to base functional style syntax abbreviated URIs on CURIES not QNAMES ←
19:18:56 <alanr> "Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax"
Alan Ruttenberg: "Structural Specification and Functional-Style Syntax" ←
19:18:59 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
19:19:06 <alanr> +1
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 ←
19:19:19 <Rinke> jeremy: have you seen my notes? I might change my vote tomorrow by email
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: have you seen my notes? I might change my vote tomorrow by email ←
19:19:34 <alanr> put it on agenda next week
Alan Ruttenberg: put it on agenda next week ←
19:19:39 <Rinke> IanH: what's the best way forward? Resolve this now, backtrack? Push it to next week?
Ian Horrocks: what's the best way forward? Resolve this now, backtrack? Push it to next week? ←
19:20:01 <Rinke> IanH: put it on the agenda for next week. You'll be in a position to give a definitive yay or nay
Ian Horrocks: put it on the agenda for next week. You'll be in a position to give a definitive yay or nay ←
19:20:13 <Rinke> IanH: we resolved that we will resolve something
Ian Horrocks: we resolved that we will resolve something ←
19:20:24 <Rinke> IanH: issue 2 is the final thing on the agenda
Ian Horrocks: ISSUE-2 is the final thing on the agenda ←
19:20:41 <Rinke> ... we already resolved that we fix up this problem for alldisjoint wrt the RDF mapping
... we already resolved that we fix up this problem for alldisjoint wrt the RDF mapping ←
19:21:19 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:21:30 <Rinke> ... the question arose as to whether we make the language symmetrical and add constructs for things in the structural syntax that use lists
... the question arose as to whether we make the language symmetrical and add constructs for things in the structural syntax that use lists ←
19:21:35 <Zakim> -MartinD
Zakim IRC Bot: -MartinD ←
19:21:45 <bmotik> differentindividual
Boris Motik: differentindividual ←
19:21:47 <Rinke> ... boris what are the other ones
... boris what are the other ones ←
19:21:49 <bmotik> sameindividual
Boris Motik: sameindividual ←
19:21:55 <Rinke> pfps: union, intersection
Peter Patel-Schneider: union, intersection ←
19:22:00 <bijan> ?
Bijan Parsia: ? ←
19:22:08 <bmotik> Union and intersection are already OK
Boris Motik: Union and intersection are already OK ←
19:22:09 <bijan> Doesn't union and intersection allready nary
Bijan Parsia: Doesn't union and intersection allready nary ←
19:22:13 <alanr> +1 to differentindividual
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 to differentindividual ←
19:22:16 <Rinke> IanH: really correct peter?
Ian Horrocks: really correct peter? ←
19:22:31 <Rinke> ... in RDF they are mapped to multiple pairwise
... in RDF they are mapped to multiple pairwise ←
19:22:32 <bmotik> It is equivalentClasses, equaivalentProperties, disjointClasses, disjointProperties
Boris Motik: It is equivalentClasses, equaivalentProperties, disjointClasses, disjointProperties ←
19:22:44 <Rinke> alanr: alldifferent was already in the first version?
Alan Ruttenberg: alldifferent was already in the first version? ←
19:23:01 <Rinke> pfps: if you want to go for a same-sized translation, there are only two that are lists
Peter Patel-Schneider: if you want to go for a same-sized translation, there are only two that are lists ←
19:23:03 <bmotik> sameIndividaul, differentIndividuals
Boris Motik: sameIndividaul, differentIndividuals ←
19:23:10 <alanr> <owl:AllDifferent>
Alan Ruttenberg: <owl:AllDifferent> ←
19:23:12 <alanr> <owl:distinctMembers rdf:parseType="Collection">
Alan Ruttenberg: <owl:distinctMembers rdf:parseType="Collection"> ←
19:23:14 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Don_Giovanni"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Don_Giovanni"/> ←
19:23:14 <jeremy> ifferentIndividuals(iID1 … iIDn)
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: ifferentIndividuals(iID1 … iIDn) ←
19:23:14 <jeremy> _:x rdf:type owl:AllDifferent .
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name '_' is ambiguous. It could be any of: RRSAgent IRC Bot Michael Smith Alan Ruttenberg Martin Dzbor Rinke Hoekstra Trackbot IRC Bot Unknown Carsten Vit Novacek Boris Motik Peter Patel-Schneider Bernardo Cuenca Grau Evan Wallace Sandro Hawke Markus Krötzsch Bijan Parsia Zhe Wu Zakim IRC Bot Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler . Either change the name used or insert a 'PRESENT: ...' line to restrict the active names.
Unknown _: x rdf:type owl:AllDifferent . [ Scribe Assist by Unknown jeremy ] ←
19:23:15 <jeremy> 04_:x 04owl:distinctMembers04 T(SEQ iID04104 … iID04n04) .
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: 04_:x 04owl:distinctMembers04 T(SEQ iID04104 … iID04n04) . ←
19:23:16 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Nozze_di_Figaro"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Nozze_di_Figaro"/> ←
19:23:17 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Cosi_fan_tutte"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Cosi_fan_tutte"/> ←
19:23:19 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Tosca"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Tosca"/> ←
19:23:20 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Turandot"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Turandot"/> ←
19:23:22 <alanr> <Opera rdf:about="#Salome"/>
Alan Ruttenberg: <Opera rdf:about="#Salome"/> ←
19:23:23 <alanr> </owl:distinctMembers>
Alan Ruttenberg: </owl:distinctMembers> ←
19:23:25 <alanr> </owl:AllDifferent>
Alan Ruttenberg: </owl:AllDifferent> ←
19:23:25 <jeremy> http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/mapping.html#4.1
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl-semantics/mapping.html#4.1 ←
19:23:25 <bmotik> It does not enable roundtripping.
Boris Motik: It does not enable roundtripping. ←
19:23:26 <alanr> so differentindividuals already handled
Alan Ruttenberg: so differentindividuals already handled ←
19:23:27 <Rinke> IanH: not a direct syntax as we have for alldisjoint
Ian Horrocks: not a direct syntax as we have for alldisjoint ←
19:23:38 <Rinke> pfps: the only rationale for having a direct syntax for some of them is
Peter Patel-Schneider: the only rationale for having a direct syntax for some of them is ←
19:23:57 <Rinke> that the obvious translation is n^2 and the non-obvious translation needs a trick
that the obvious translation is n^2 and the non-obvious translation needs a trick ←
19:24:09 <Rinke> IanH: boris says that it makes the problem for roundtripping
Ian Horrocks: boris says that it makes the problem for roundtripping ←
19:24:24 <alanr> do we have specification of what roundtripping means? Is it an agreed upon requirement?
Alan Ruttenberg: do we have specification of what roundtripping means? Is it an agreed upon requirement? ←
19:24:38 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:24:42 <uli> how big is this problem?
Uli Sattler: how big is this problem? ←
19:24:43 <bijan> No
Bijan Parsia: No ←
19:24:44 <bmotik> For backwards-compatibility we might translate things as usual only if n =2
Boris Motik: For backwards-compatibility we might translate things as usual only if n =2 ←
19:24:53 <bmotik> If n != 2, we might use the new mapping
Boris Motik: If n != 2, we might use the new mapping ←
19:25:17 <bijan> zakim, unmute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, unmute me ←
19:25:17 <Zakim> bijan should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should no longer be muted ←
19:25:22 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:25:32 <Rinke> pfps: we always have a roundtrip from functional to RDF and back, but if we already have a document in RDF then we cannot do roundtripping unless
Peter Patel-Schneider: we always have a roundtrip from functional to RDF and back, but if we already have a document in RDF then we cannot do roundtripping unless ←
19:25:41 <bmotik> Sure, but if you have an OWL 1.1 RDF document (with new vocabulary), then things should be round-trippable.
Boris Motik: Sure, but if you have an OWL 1.1 RDF document (with new vocabulary), then things should be round-trippable. ←
19:25:56 <Rinke> ... we have a direct mapping
... we have a direct mapping ←
19:26:02 <bmotik> q+
Boris Motik: q+ ←
19:26:05 <Rinke> pfps: quantitative vs. qualitative improvement
Peter Patel-Schneider: quantitative vs. qualitative improvement ←
19:26:10 <bmotik> zakim, unmute me
Boris Motik: zakim, unmute me ←
19:26:10 <Zakim> bmotik should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should no longer be muted ←
19:26:14 <Rinke> pfps: reason is bloat
Peter Patel-Schneider: reason is bloat ←
19:26:14 <jeremy> +1 to pfps
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: +1 to pfps ←
19:26:16 <bijan> zakim, mute me
Bijan Parsia: zakim, mute me ←
19:26:16 <Zakim> bijan should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bijan should now be muted ←
19:26:20 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
19:26:21 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:26:25 <alanr> +1 to pfps too
Alan Ruttenberg: +1 to pfps too ←
19:26:32 <sandro> Arg -- wrong button
Sandro Hawke: Arg -- wrong button ←
19:26:40 <IanH> q?
Ian Horrocks: q? ←
19:26:44 <sandro> q-
Sandro Hawke: q- ←
19:26:48 <jeremy> sandro left call
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: sandro left call ←
19:26:50 <bijan> sandro hung up
Bijan Parsia: sandro hung up ←
19:27:03 <sandro> I pressed hangup instead of unmute.
Sandro Hawke: I pressed hangup instead of unmute. ←
19:27:07 <Rinke> boris: I understand the point regarding the bload
Boris Motik: I understand the point regarding the bload ←
19:27:17 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
19:27:21 <alanr> roundtripping not possible given backwards compatibility
Alan Ruttenberg: roundtripping not possible given backwards compatibility ←
19:27:31 <Rinke> ... if we now extend the language with this new construct... new ontology, serialise as RDF then we can do roundtrip
... if we now extend the language with this new construct... new ontology, serialise as RDF then we can do roundtrip ←
19:27:40 <alanr> I don't know if it matters
Alan Ruttenberg: I don't know if it matters ←
19:27:47 <Rinke> ... if you use owl 1.1 RDF and owl 1.1 AS then things should be round-trippable
... if you use owl 1.1 RDF and owl 1.1 AS then things should be round-trippable ←
19:27:57 <Rinke> IanH: this wasn't the simple discussion I was anticipating
Ian Horrocks: this wasn't the simple discussion I was anticipating ←
19:28:01 <bmotik> Zakim, mute me
Boris Motik: Zakim, mute me ←
19:28:01 <Zakim> bmotik should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: bmotik should now be muted ←
19:28:13 <Rinke> ... are not going to get through this in the remaining 3 minutes of this telecon
... are not going to get through this in the remaining 3 minutes of this telecon ←
19:28:25 <Rinke> ... aim for email exchange to clarify the matter
... aim for email exchange to clarify the matter ←
19:28:34 <Rinke> IanH: last item.... aob?
Ian Horrocks: last item.... aob? ←
19:28:37 <Rinke> ... any of it?
... any of it? ←
19:28:49 <JeffP> +1 bye
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'JeffP' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown JeffP: +1 bye ←
19:28:51 <uli> doe and dusted
Uli Sattler: doe and dusted ←
19:28:52 <Zakim> -Vipul_Kashyap
Zakim IRC Bot: -Vipul_Kashyap ←
19:28:56 <Rinke> IanH: declare us finished for this week
Ian Horrocks: declare us finished for this week ←
19:28:57 <uli> bye bye
Uli Sattler: bye bye ←
19:28:57 <Zakim> -Evan_Wallace
Zakim IRC Bot: -Evan_Wallace ←
19:28:58 <Zakim> -jeremy
Zakim IRC Bot: -jeremy ←
19:28:59 <bmotik> bye
Boris Motik: bye ←
19:28:59 <Zakim> -bijan
Zakim IRC Bot: -bijan ←
19:29:00 <MarkusK> bye
Markus Krötzsch: bye ←
19:29:02 <Zakim> -Carsten
Zakim IRC Bot: -Carsten ←
19:29:03 <jeremy> bye
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Scribe problem: the name 'jeremy' does not match any of the 20 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Bijan Parsia Rinke Hoekstra Michael Smith Markus Krötzsch Martin Dzbor Ian Horrocks Uli Sattler Alan Ruttenberg Boris Motik Sandro Hawke Zhe Wu Vit Novacek Bernardo Cuenca Grau Peter Patel-Schneider Alan Ruttenberg Unknown Carsten Evan Wallace Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown jeremy: bye ←
19:29:03 <Rinke> yep
yep ←
19:29:03 <Zakim> -MIchaelSmith
Zakim IRC Bot: -MIchaelSmith ←
19:29:05 <Zakim> -JeffP
Zakim IRC Bot: -JeffP ←
19:29:05 <bijan> -bye
Bijan Parsia: -bye ←
19:29:06 <Zakim> -uli
Zakim IRC Bot: -uli ←
19:29:06 <zhe> bye
19:29:07 <Zakim> -vit
Zakim IRC Bot: -vit ←
19:29:07 <Zakim> -MarkusK
Zakim IRC Bot: -MarkusK ←
19:29:08 <Rinke> zakim, unmute me
zakim, unmute me ←
19:29:09 <Zakim> Rinke should no longer be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: Rinke should no longer be muted ←
19:29:11 <Zakim> -bcuencag
Zakim IRC Bot: -bcuencag ←
19:29:22 <Zakim> -bmotik
Zakim IRC Bot: -bmotik ←
19:29:31 <Zakim> -pfps
Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps ←
19:30:00 <Zakim> -IanH
Zakim IRC Bot: -IanH ←
19:30:38 <Zakim> -zhe
Zakim IRC Bot: -zhe ←
19:31:06 <alanr> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions
Alan Ruttenberg: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Scribe_Conventions ←
19:31:16 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.21/Minutes
Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2007/OWL/wiki/Teleconference.2007.11.21/Minutes ←
19:31:19 <alanr> Remove Zakim chit chat such as people entering, leaving, q+, acks, who is here, etc.
Alan Ruttenberg: Remove Zakim chit chat such as people entering, leaving, q+, acks, who is here, etc. ←
19:31:21 <alanr> Move scribes own comments (as opposed) into irc syntax
Alan Ruttenberg: Move scribes own comments (as opposed) into irc syntax ←
19:31:23 <alanr> Sometimes reorder to make discussions more coherent
Alan Ruttenberg: Sometimes reorder to make discussions more coherent ←
19:31:25 <alanr> Add section headers
Alan Ruttenberg: Add section headers ←
19:32:37 <alanr> Adding {{Action|4}} and {{Issue|23}}
Alan Ruttenberg: Adding {{Action|4}} and {{Issue|23}} ←
19:35:04 <Rinke> %7B
%7B ←
19:35:37 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
19:35:39 <Zakim> -Alan
Zakim IRC Bot: -Alan ←
19:35:40 <Zakim> SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_OWL()12:00PM has ended ←
19:35:41 <Zakim> Attendees were Rinke, bijan, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK, MartinD, bmotik, IanH, Alan, uli, Sandro, vit, pfps, bcuencag, Alan_Ruttenberg, Carsten, Evan_Wallace, zhe, JeffP, +078910aaaa,
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Rinke, bijan, MIchaelSmith, MarkusK, MartinD, bmotik, IanH, Alan, uli, Sandro, vit, pfps, bcuencag, Alan_Ruttenberg, Carsten, Evan_Wallace, zhe, JeffP, +078910aaaa, ←
19:35:43 <Zakim> ... jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap
Zakim IRC Bot: ... jeremy, Vipul_Kashyap ←
Formatted by CommonScribe