14:57:00 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-ldp-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-ldp-irc ←
14:57:02 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs public ←
14:57:04 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be LDP
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be LDP ←
14:57:04 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_LDP()10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes ←
14:57:05 <trackbot> Meeting: Linked Data Platform (LDP) Working Group Teleconference
14:57:05 <trackbot> Date: 24 February 2014
15:00:09 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has now started ←
15:00:16 <Zakim> +Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: +Arnaud ←
15:00:18 <Zakim> +MIT531
Zakim IRC Bot: +MIT531 ←
15:00:28 <deiu> Zakim: MIT531 is me
15:00:36 <deiu> Zakim, MIT531 is me
Andrei Sambra: Zakim, MIT531 is me ←
15:00:36 <Zakim> +deiu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +deiu; got it ←
15:01:28 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software
Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software ←
15:01:51 <TallTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me ←
15:01:52 <Zakim> +TallTed; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +TallTed; got it ←
15:01:56 <Zakim> +[IBM]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IBM] ←
15:02:08 <SteveS> zakim, [IBM] is me
Steve Speicher: zakim, [IBM] is me ←
15:02:08 <Zakim> +SteveS; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveS; got it ←
15:02:14 <Zakim> +Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: +Sandro ←
15:03:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:04:07 <Ashok> zakim, IPcaller is me
Ashok Malhotra: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:04:07 <Zakim> +Ashok; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok; got it ←
15:04:15 <Zakim> +ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: +ericP ←
15:04:49 <Zakim> +bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: +bblfish ←
15:05:04 <bblfish> hi
Henry Story: hi ←
15:05:26 <bblfish> I suppose I could scripte
Henry Story: I suppose I could scripte ←
15:06:39 <bblfish> Topic: Admin
15:06:56 <bblfish> Arnaud: We are going to change the order of the agenda a little bit
Arnaud Le Hors: We are going to change the order of the agenda a little bit [ Scribe Assist by Henry Story ] ←
15:07:05 <bblfish> ... because of feedback
Henry Story: ... because of feedback ←
15:07:31 <ericP> scribenick: bblfish
(Scribe set to Henry Story)
<bblfish> chair: Arnaud
<bblfish> agenda: http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.02.24
15:07:36 <deiu> Minutes seemed ok
Andrei Sambra: Minutes seemed ok ←
15:07:54 <bblfish> http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.02.24
http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2014.02.24 ←
15:08:04 <bblfish> rnaud: We are going to change the order of the agenda a little bit
Arnaud Le Hors: We are going to change the order of the agenda a little bit ←
15:08:04 <bblfish> because of feedback
because of feedback ←
15:08:27 <deiu> s/rnaud/Arnaud
15:08:29 <Zakim> +??P16
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P16 ←
15:08:40 <bblfish> Resolved: Minutes for February 17 approved http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-02-17
RESOLVED: Minutes for February 17 approved http://www.w3.org/2013/meeting/ldp/2014-02-17 ←
15:08:43 <Zakim> +Roger
Zakim IRC Bot: +Roger ←
15:08:47 <nmihindu> Zakim, ??P16 is me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, ??P16 is me ←
15:08:47 <Zakim> +nmihindu; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +nmihindu; got it ←
15:08:57 <nmihindu> Zakim, mute me
Nandana Mihindukulasooriya: Zakim, mute me ←
15:08:57 <Zakim> nmihindu should now be muted
Zakim IRC Bot: nmihindu should now be muted ←
15:09:28 <bblfish> Topic: Tracking of actions
15:10:09 <Zakim> +??P19
Zakim IRC Bot: +??P19 ←
15:10:09 <bblfish> Steve reports on completing unnamed action of splitting the spec, moving paging and ordering to a different doc
Steve reports on completing unnamed action of splitting the spec, moving paging and ordering to a different doc ←
15:10:19 <pchampin> zakim, ??P19 Is me
Pierre-Antoine Champin: zakim, ??P19 Is me ←
15:10:19 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +pchampin; got it ←
15:10:46 <bblfish> Topic: HTTP 209
15:11:51 <bblfish> ericP: put together a draft for the new response to try and push this through IETF
Eric Prud'hommeaux: put together a draft for the new response to try and push this through IETF ←
15:12:38 <Arnaud> http://www.w3.org/2014/02/2xx/draft-prudhommeaux-http-status-209
Arnaud Le Hors: http://www.w3.org/2014/02/2xx/draft-prudhommeaux-http-status-209 ←
15:13:55 <bblfish> Arnaud: the tension is a bit less because it is only the paging spec that depends on 209
Arnaud Le Hors: the tension is a bit less because it is only the paging spec that depends on 209 ←
15:14:11 <bblfish> bblfish: a lot of other things in the semweb would depend on it too :-)
Henry Story: a lot of other things in the semweb would depend on it too :-) ←
15:14:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:14:29 <bblfish> ericP: if one can test this on a bunch of systems that would be helpful
Eric Prud'hommeaux: if one can test this on a bunch of systems that would be helpful ←
15:14:38 <codyburleson> Zakim, IPcaller is me
Cody Burleson: Zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:14:38 <Zakim> +codyburleson; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +codyburleson; got it ←
15:14:57 <bblfish> ... it would be interesting to test this in existing linked data applications
... it would be interesting to test this in existing linked data applications ←
15:15:22 <bblfish> the people who make this mistake would be those who mistake information resources and non-information resources
the people who make this mistake would be those who mistake information resources and non-information resources ←
15:15:24 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
15:15:36 <bblfish> ... this would be useful for feedback on IETF
... this would be useful for feedback on IETF ←
15:16:12 <bblfish> ... github would find this useful for github, as they don't differentiate one group of issues from others. This could be argued to be pathological
... github would find this useful for github, as they don't differentiate one group of issues from others. This could be argued to be pathological ←
15:16:31 <sandro> q+ to ask about allies
Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask about allies ←
15:16:32 <bblfish> ... and due to there not being a 209
... and due to there not being a 209 ←
15:16:39 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:16:44 <Ashok> Eric, how long do you expect the IETF process to take?
Ashok Malhotra: Eric, how long do you expect the IETF process to take? ←
15:17:28 <deiu> bblfish: isn't schema.org the one that returns a different url for identity? they can be an ally
Henry Story: isn't schema.org the one that returns a different url for identity? they can be an ally [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
15:18:16 <deiu> ... my feeling is that 3XX might be a bit better (it has a notion of redirect), while for 2XX space it could be confusing for people
Andrei Sambra: ... my feeling is that 3XX might be a bit better (it has a notion of redirect), while for 2XX space it could be confusing for people ←
15:19:09 <deiu> ericP: the fact is that 2XX is returning content, while 3XX is about the redirect and not the final product of the redirect
Eric Prud'hommeaux: the fact is that 2XX is returning content, while 3XX is about the redirect and not the final product of the redirect [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
15:19:10 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
15:19:10 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask about allies
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask about allies ←
15:19:17 <bblfish> bblfish: why not in the 3xx space?
Henry Story: why not in the 3xx space? ←
15:19:39 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
15:19:40 <bblfish> ericP: because there seems to be a lot of agreement that 3xx is only about the headers and redirects
Eric Prud'hommeaux: because there seems to be a lot of agreement that 3xx is only about the headers and redirects ←
15:20:03 <bblfish> Mhh, perhaps I can go to IETF
Mhh, perhaps I can go to IETF ←
15:20:55 <bblfish> Sandro: this is server only redirect, and sandro thinks about suggesting a client preference for a redirect
Sandro Hawke: this is server only redirect, and sandro thinks about suggesting a client preference for a redirect ←
15:21:08 <bblfish> ... the client could suggest the redirect
... the client could suggest the redirect ←
15:21:59 <sandro> Client says: Prefer: follow-link rel=first
Sandro Hawke: Client says: Prefer: follow-link rel=first ←
15:22:00 <bblfish> Sandro is suggesting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Feb/0100.html
Sandro is suggesting http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-ldp-wg/2014Feb/0100.html ←
15:22:56 <bblfish> ericP: John Arwe had made a similar suggestion with respect to a Prefer header, though John had a 303 in his proposal
Eric Prud'hommeaux: John Arwe had made a similar suggestion with respect to a Prefer header, though John had a 303 in his proposal ←
15:23:28 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
15:24:58 <Arnaud> ack SteveS
Arnaud Le Hors: ack SteveS ←
15:25:01 <bblfish> q-
q- ←
15:25:28 <bblfish> SteveS: there is an editorial note taken for 308
Steve Speicher: there is an editorial note taken for 308 ←
15:25:47 <bblfish> ericP: that was because he complied with the 308 RFC
Eric Prud'hommeaux: that was because he complied with the 308 RFC ←
15:27:02 <bblfish> Ashok: what are the expectations on how long that is going to take
Ashok Malhotra: what are the expectations on how long that is going to take ←
15:27:27 <bblfish> ericP: Philippe Le Hegaret will talk about it at IETF London next week there should be a response with the apps ...
Eric Prud'hommeaux: Philippe Le Hegaret will talk about it at IETF London next week there should be a response with the apps ... ←
15:28:04 <bblfish> ericP: it is helpful as the w3c acting director is supporting this and is the liaison with IETF
Eric Prud'hommeaux: it is helpful as the w3c acting director is supporting this and is the liaison with IETF ←
15:28:59 <sandro> ( I see Content-Location is the location of THIS PARTICULAR representation )
Sandro Hawke: ( I see Content-Location is the location of THIS PARTICULAR representation ) ←
15:29:15 <bblfish> ericP: one remaining issue: was not sure if sandro is better 209 over 200
Eric Prud'hommeaux: one remaining issue: was not sure if sandro is better 209 over 200 ←
15:29:28 <bblfish> sandro: prefers 209 over 200
Sandro Hawke: prefers 209 over 200 ←
15:30:52 <bblfish> sandro: the 209 spec would use a prefer header as an example - they would not be tied together
Sandro Hawke: the 209 spec would use a prefer header as an example - they would not be tied together ←
15:32:00 <bblfish> the question was how complex is it to get a new prefer header
the question was how complex is it to get a new prefer header ←
15:32:30 <sandro> prefer registry = http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/message-headers.xhtml
Sandro Hawke: prefer registry = http://www.iana.org/assignments/message-headers/message-headers.xhtml ←
15:32:50 <bblfish> the answer seems to be vague between it's just a registration to w3c specs may have some automatic speed way to registration
the answer seems to be vague between it's just a registration to w3c specs may have some automatic speed way to registration ←
15:32:52 <sandro> or not: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-http-prefer-18#page-13
Sandro Hawke: or not: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-snell-http-prefer-18#page-13 ←
15:33:44 <bblfish> Topic: Status of LDP spec
<bblfish> Arnaud: Sandro isn't happy with the spec and is proposing a new model for containers
Arnaud Le Hors: Sandro isn't happy with the spec and is proposing a new model for containers ←
<bblfish> https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Collection_Types
https://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/Collection_Types ←
15:35:41 <bblfish> Sandro: finding the Collections and the members to be confusing as they are smushed together
Sandro Hawke: finding the Collections and the members to be confusing as they are smushed together ←
15:36:04 <TallTed> q+
Ted Thibodeau: q+ ←
15:36:06 <bblfish> ... if synchronisation is a problem, or access control can be problematic, ... various extensibility problems
... if synchronisation is a problem, or access control can be problematic, ... various extensibility problems ←
15:40:22 <Zakim> -Ashok
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok ←
15:40:30 <Arnaud> ack TallTed
Arnaud Le Hors: ack TallTed ←
15:41:47 <bblfish> TallTed: is not that happy about the use cases, that may be ephemeral, and that end up being used as a justification for a lot of features
Ted Thibodeau: is not that happy about the use cases, that may be ephemeral, and that end up being used as a justification for a lot of features ←
15:42:19 <bblfish> ... there seems to be a need for a container which when deleted removes all contained resources and a container that when removed must remove all contained resources
... there seems to be a need for a container which when deleted removes all contained resources and a container that when removed must remove all contained resources ←
15:42:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
15:42:47 <Ashok> zakim, IPcaller is me
Ashok Malhotra: zakim, IPcaller is me ←
15:42:47 <Zakim> +Ashok; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +Ashok; got it ←
15:42:49 <bblfish> ... and it should be easy to have both
... and it should be easy to have both ←
15:42:57 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
15:44:20 <bblfish> TallTed: Sandro's proposal seems to be like a rehash of previous issues that were resolved some time ago. So there was at a previous F2F the idea of a factory method that could be used to say do a rm -rf on a directory
Ted Thibodeau: Sandro's proposal seems to be like a rehash of previous issues that were resolved some time ago. So there was at a previous F2F the idea of a factory method that could be used to say do a rm -rf on a directory ←
15:45:28 <bblfish> ... one should remove the temptation of simplification for the sake of simplification because there are all these use cases
... one should remove the temptation of simplification for the sake of simplification because there are all these use cases ←
15:45:45 <roger> I don't think that the factory method is doing deleting - it is doing creation.
Roger Menday: I don't think that the factory method is doing deleting - it is doing creation. ←
15:46:02 <bblfish> Arnaud: was worried because of the reliance on PATCH everywhere
Arnaud Le Hors: was worried because of the reliance on PATCH everywhere ←
15:46:24 <bblfish> sandro: the current spec has the same problem with PATCH
Sandro Hawke: the current spec has the same problem with PATCH ←
15:46:36 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
15:47:27 <deiu> bblfish: I haven't had time to look at the spec carefully, but the notion of containership was that there are things that have containment.
Henry Story: I haven't had time to look at the spec carefully, but the notion of containership was that there are things that have containment. [ Scribe Assist by Andrei Sambra ] ←
15:47:39 <deiu> ... my feeling is that one can go down to the basic building blocks
Andrei Sambra: ... my feeling is that one can go down to the basic building blocks ←
15:48:44 <deiu> ... one should first do a POST (create a doc), then PATCH to modify contents
Andrei Sambra: ... one should first do a POST (create a doc), then PATCH to modify contents ←
15:48:56 <SteveS> you can do that with BasicContainers if you want that
Steve Speicher: you can do that with BasicContainers if you want that ←
15:49:17 <deiu> ... the idea is that there are consequences to doing certain actions
Andrei Sambra: ... the idea is that there are consequences to doing certain actions ←
15:49:40 <sandro> q+
Sandro Hawke: q+ ←
15:50:06 <deiu> ... the high lever thinking is not so clear, and perhaps if we can understand what we're doing with these two different things, then people will understand WHY we're doing it
Andrei Sambra: ... the high lever thinking is not so clear, and perhaps if we can understand what we're doing with these two different things, then people will understand WHY we're doing it ←
15:50:29 <Zakim> -nmihindu
Zakim IRC Bot: -nmihindu ←
15:50:38 <sandro> q+ to ask how people think of the two-headed monster -- when they are looking in different directions
Sandro Hawke: q+ to ask how people think of the two-headed monster -- when they are looking in different directions ←
15:53:28 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
15:53:28 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to ask how people think of the two-headed monster -- when they are looking in different directions
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to ask how people think of the two-headed monster -- when they are looking in different directions ←
15:54:09 <ericP> sandro, i'm having a hard time writing something into 209 to use Prefer before Prefer: follow-link is defined.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: sandro, i'm having a hard time writing something into 209 to use Prefer before Prefer: follow-link is defined. ←
15:54:23 <ericP> e.g. 'A client MAY indicate that it expects a 209 status code with a header like "Prefer: follow-link rel=first".'
Eric Prud'hommeaux: e.g. 'A client MAY indicate that it expects a 209 status code with a header like "Prefer: follow-link rel=first".' ←
15:54:51 <roger> sandro: why would I want a container that has membership triples which are different to the containment triples ?
Sandro Hawke: why would I want a container that has membership triples which are different to the containment triples ? [ Scribe Assist by Roger Menday ] ←
15:54:56 <roger> is that correct ?
Roger Menday: is that correct ? ←
15:56:21 <Ashok> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
15:56:25 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
15:57:00 <ericP> in Annotea, some clients wanted hosting and others didn't.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: in Annotea, some clients wanted hosting and others didn't. ←
15:57:41 <ericP> it was really a question of whether they owned some other web space into which they wrote their annotations.
Eric Prud'hommeaux: it was really a question of whether they owned some other web space into which they wrote their annotations. ←
15:58:28 <ericP> (in response to Sandro's question of why one container would accept both POST and PATCH)
Eric Prud'hommeaux: (in response to Sandro's question of why one container would accept both POST and PATCH) ←
15:59:38 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
15:59:54 <bblfish> qoops forgot to keep scribing
qoops forgot to keep scribing ←
16:00:28 <bblfish> Ashok: found sandro's write up easy to understand
Ashok Malhotra: found sandro's write up easy to understand ←
16:00:34 <Arnaud> ack steves
Arnaud Le Hors: ack steves ←
16:00:35 <bblfish> and that it's a better write up
and that it's a better write up ←
16:01:25 <bblfish> SteveS: an explanation for the need of the double headed beast. Why not have as bblfish said a simple POST to create an ldp:contains and then PATCH the returned URL somewhere else.
Steve Speicher: an explanation for the need of the double headed beast. Why not have as bblfish said a simple POST to create an ldp:contains and then PATCH the returned URL somewhere else. ←
16:02:09 <bblfish> .... but with the bug report use case it is useful to have the action of POSTing have as a consequence the addition of the membership triple to another resource
.... but with the bug report use case it is useful to have the action of POSTing have as a consequence the addition of the membership triple to another resource ←
16:04:34 <SteveS> I have a few edits I'd like to make to help with understanding, so would request another week before making decision on going to LC (or at least be clear on what actions are needed to make LC2)
Steve Speicher: I have a few edits I'd like to make to help with understanding, so would request another week before making decision on going to LC (or at least be clear on what actions are needed to make LC2) ←
16:05:11 <bblfish> Arnaud: Sandro proposes a new notion of Selection that is underspecified ( would take a lot of time to get it right ). What is a problem would be if we found that we had cornered ourselves. But if people don't like the IndirectContainer and DirectContainer and can just ignore them then we are ok. The problem would be the renaming of the IndirectContainer to ldp:Container decided last week
Arnaud Le Hors: Sandro proposes a new notion of Selection that is underspecified ( would take a lot of time to get it right ). What is a problem would be if we found that we had cornered ourselves. But if people don't like the IndirectContainer and DirectContainer and can just ignore them then we are ok. The problem would be the renaming of the IndirectContainer to ldp:Container decided last week ←
16:05:37 <bblfish> since with the ldp:BasicContainer things are the way sandro likes it
since with the ldp:BasicContainer things are the way sandro likes it ←
16:06:28 <bblfish> ... from a logical point of view this makes sense. But the ldp:BasicContainer is also an indirectContainer.
... from a logical point of view this makes sense. But the ldp:BasicContainer is also an indirectContainer. ←
16:07:58 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
16:08:45 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
16:09:12 <sandro> +1 rename ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer
Sandro Hawke: +1 rename ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer ←
16:09:34 <sandro> +1 removing the class hierarchy
Sandro Hawke: +1 removing the class hierarchy ←
16:09:40 <Ashok> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
16:10:05 <sandro> (to reduce tying ourselves to the current model)
Sandro Hawke: (to reduce tying ourselves to the current model) ←
16:12:02 <SteveS> I like the hierarchy we have but understand how some of the model complexities might make into the simplest thing
Steve Speicher: I like the hierarchy we have but understand how some of the model complexities might make into the simplest thing ←
16:13:25 <sandro> ApplicationDomainContainer === IndirectContainer ?
Sandro Hawke: ApplicationDomainContainer === IndirectContainer ? ←
16:13:40 <Arnaud> ack ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack ashok ←
16:14:53 <sandro> q+ to push forward, maybe with IC and DC "at risk".
Sandro Hawke: q+ to push forward, maybe with IC and DC "at risk". ←
16:15:06 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
16:15:06 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to push forward, maybe with IC and DC "at risk".
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to push forward, maybe with IC and DC "at risk". ←
16:15:24 <SteveS> q+
Steve Speicher: q+ ←
16:15:32 <TallTed> ldp:Container has 2 disjoint subclasses -- ldp:BasicContainer, ldp:AdvancedContainer
Ted Thibodeau: ldp:Container has 2 disjoint subclasses -- ldp:BasicContainer, ldp:AdvancedContainer ←
16:15:32 <TallTed> AdvancedContainer has 2 subclasses -- and 1 AdvancedContainer could be both of these -- ldp:IndirectContainer, ldp:DirectContainer
Ted Thibodeau: AdvancedContainer has 2 subclasses -- and 1 AdvancedContainer could be both of these -- ldp:IndirectContainer, ldp:DirectContainer ←
16:16:23 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
16:16:39 <Arnaud> ack SteveS
Arnaud Le Hors: ack SteveS ←
16:17:42 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
16:19:22 <Zakim> -Roger
Zakim IRC Bot: -Roger ←
16:19:31 <SteveS> right, think soap/wsdl would have same issues
Steve Speicher: right, think soap/wsdl would have same issues ←
16:23:34 <sandro> q+ to bring up my PREFER request as well
Sandro Hawke: q+ to bring up my PREFER request as well ←
16:25:06 <sandro> Arnaud, I'd love to propose to go to LC, but I'd also like to address my PREFER point.
Sandro Hawke: Arnaud, I'd love to propose to go to LC, but I'd also like to address my PREFER point. ←
16:26:30 <bblfish> yes
yes ←
16:26:36 <SteveS> I can stay
Steve Speicher: I can stay ←
16:26:39 <ericP> ack me
Eric Prud'hommeaux: ack me ←
16:26:42 <sandro> Henry, the client IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for what people infer, incliduing what the server infers.
Sandro Hawke: Henry, the client IS NOT RESPONSIBLE for what people infer, incliduing what the server infers. ←
16:27:10 <Arnaud> ack sandro
Arnaud Le Hors: ack sandro ←
16:27:10 <Zakim> sandro, you wanted to bring up my PREFER request as well
Zakim IRC Bot: sandro, you wanted to bring up my PREFER request as well ←
16:27:14 <bblfish> I was just explaining what the importance of binding is
I was just explaining what the importance of binding is ←
16:29:35 <bblfish> what is a client bound to when it POSTs a graph to a LDPC. It seems it is bound to the content of the graph and the ldp:contains relation . But for more advanced containers it seems the client is bound to the extra triples appearing. This is not made clear in the spec. Here binding is not the same as causal consequence. POSTing G could have as causal consequence that a bomb goes off, but the client is not bound to that consequence: he is certainly
what is a client bound to when it POSTs a graph to a LDPC. It seems it is bound to the content of the graph and the ldp:contains relation . But for more advanced containers it seems the client is bound to the extra triples appearing. This is not made clear in the spec. Here binding is not the same as causal consequence. POSTing G could have as causal consequence that a bomb goes off, but the client is not bound to that consequence: he is certainly ←
16:29:35 <bblfish> h not responsible for it.
h not responsible for it. ←
16:30:01 <sandro> |Prefer: return=representation;
Sandro Hawke: |Prefer: return=representation; ←
16:30:01 <sandro> include="http://www.w3.org/ns/ldp#PreferEmptyContainer"|
Sandro Hawke: include="http://www.w3.org/ns/ldp#PreferEmptyContainer"| ←
16:33:42 <bblfish> I am not sure I have a grasp of these proposals
I am not sure I have a grasp of these proposals ←
16:34:08 <bblfish> q+
q+ ←
16:34:15 <Arnaud> ack bblfish
Arnaud Le Hors: ack bblfish ←
16:35:51 <SteveS> Agree with sandro, it would be good to have a URI for container metadata
Steve Speicher: Agree with sandro, it would be good to have a URI for container metadata ←
16:36:24 <SteveS> ...we seem to have lost that (had it with ?non-member-properties) and added Prefer
Steve Speicher: ...we seem to have lost that (had it with ?non-member-properties) and added Prefer ←
16:37:17 <Ashok> q+
Ashok Malhotra: q+ ←
16:37:39 <Arnaud> ack Ashok
Arnaud Le Hors: ack Ashok ←
16:40:00 <sandro> { ?x ldp:contains ?y } => { member-constant membership-predicate ?y }
Sandro Hawke: { ?x ldp:contains ?y } => { member-constant membership-predicate ?y } ←
16:40:09 <sandro> that's how tyou make an IndirectContainer
Sandro Hawke: that's how tyou make an IndirectContainer ←
16:42:14 <sandro> PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types
PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types ←
16:43:57 <sandro> keeping ldp:Contains as the abstract class if folks really want it.
Sandro Hawke: keeping ldp:Contains as the abstract class if folks really want it. ←
16:44:14 <Zakim> -Ashok
Zakim IRC Bot: -Ashok ←
16:44:30 <sandro> oh no.... we lost Ashok, and he can't call back because we're over time.
Sandro Hawke: oh no.... we lost Ashok, and he can't call back because we're over time. ←
16:46:37 <ericP> setting X=1 is idempotent but it has side effects
Eric Prud'hommeaux: setting X=1 is idempotent but it has side effects ←
16:46:48 <sandro> sandro: The client is NEVER responsible for what ends up in the Container. The client is ONLY responsble for the triples in its posting.
Sandro Hawke: The client is NEVER responsible for what ends up in the Container. The client is ONLY responsble for the triples in its posting. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
16:48:22 <bblfish> btw. I'm happy that we just have this discussion on this issue of what the consequences of POSTing are. This is really useful to understand
btw. I'm happy that we just have this discussion on this issue of what the consequences of POSTing are. This is really useful to understand ←
16:48:42 <sandro> PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types. With ldp:Container as the abstract base class of the three subclasses.
PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types. With ldp:Container as the abstract base class of the three subclasses. ←
16:49:06 <sandro> or BasicContain is the base class.
Sandro Hawke: or BasicContain is the base class. ←
16:52:15 <bblfish> Arnaud: is ldp:BasicContainer rdfs:subClassOf ldp:IndirectContainer .
Arnaud Le Hors: is ldp:BasicContainer rdfs:subClassOf ldp:IndirectContainer . ←
16:53:06 <sandro> strawpoll: basic is base class, or basic is not base class
STRAWPOLL: basic is base class, or basic is not base class ←
16:53:07 <bblfish> so ldp:contains has as domain rdf:IndirectContainer ?
so ldp:contains has as domain rdf:IndirectContainer ? ←
16:53:28 <TallTed> Zakim, who's here?
Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here? ←
16:53:28 <Zakim> On the phone I see deiu, Arnaud, TallTed, SteveS, Sandro, ericP (muted), bblfish, pchampin, codyburleson
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see deiu, Arnaud, TallTed, SteveS, Sandro, ericP (muted), bblfish, pchampin, codyburleson ←
16:53:30 <Zakim> On IRC I see bhyland, codyburleson, pchampin, MiguelAraCo, betehess, Zakim, RRSAgent, SteveS, deiu, nmihindu, TallTed, bblfish, abstractj, Arnaud, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see bhyland, codyburleson, pchampin, MiguelAraCo, betehess, Zakim, RRSAgent, SteveS, deiu, nmihindu, TallTed, bblfish, abstractj, Arnaud, sandro, Yves, ericP, trackbot ←
16:53:38 <Zakim> -ericP
Zakim IRC Bot: -ericP ←
16:54:24 <SteveS> +0 for reverting to LDPC parent class and subclasses
Steve Speicher: +0 for reverting to LDPC parent class and subclasses ←
16:54:52 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: make BasicContainer -> Container, have Direct and Indirect subclasses
Arnaud Le Hors: PROPOSED: make BasicContainer -> Container, have Direct and Indirect subclasses ←
16:55:04 <sandro> -0
Sandro Hawke: -0 ←
16:55:20 <SteveS> +/- 0
Steve Speicher: +/- 0 ←
16:55:20 <bblfish> -0.8
-0.8 ←
16:55:26 <TallTed> -0
Ted Thibodeau: -0 ←
16:55:28 <deiu> 0
Andrei Sambra: 0 ←
16:55:28 <bblfish> I am pretty sure that's wrong
I am pretty sure that's wrong ←
16:56:12 <SteveS> ok, I change to +0.3
Steve Speicher: ok, I change to +0.3 ←
16:56:52 <sandro> PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types. Use ldp:Container as the abstract base class of the three subclasses.
PROPOSED: Revert ldp:Container back to ldp:IndirectContainer, and remove class hierarchy relation among the Container types. Use ldp:Container as the abstract base class of the three subclasses. ←
16:56:53 <Arnaud> PROPOSED: make Container abstract, have Basic, Direct, and Indirect subclasses
PROPOSED: make Container abstract, have Basic, Direct, and Indirect subclasses ←
16:57:15 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
16:57:21 <SteveS> back to what we had on 2/16 basically
Steve Speicher: back to what we had on 2/16 basically ←
16:57:37 <TallTed> +0.5
Ted Thibodeau: +0.5 ←
16:57:45 <SteveS> +0.01
Steve Speicher: +0.01 ←
16:58:32 <Zakim> -codyburleson
Zakim IRC Bot: -codyburleson ←
16:59:58 <codyburleson> Oops. Dropped on accident and conference is restricted to re-enter. :-(
Cody Burleson: Oops. Dropped on accident and conference is restricted to re-enter. :-( ←
17:01:17 <sandro> PROPOSED: include server MAY include rel=describeby, and if so it gets the empty-container triples.
PROPOSED: include server MAY include rel=describedby, and if so it gets the empty-container triples. ←
17:01:25 <SteveS> +1
Steve Speicher: +1 ←
17:01:53 <sandro> +1
Sandro Hawke: +1 ←
17:02:17 <deiu> +0 (I need to think about it some more)
Andrei Sambra: +0 (I need to think about it some more) ←
17:02:28 <sandro> SteveS: we removed this, because we had prefer, but we lost the IRI
Steve Speicher: we removed this, because we had prefer, but we lost the IRI [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ] ←
17:02:31 <TallTed> s/describeby/describedby/
17:02:34 <SteveS> RFC5988 describes describedBy
Steve Speicher: RFC5988 describes describedBy ←
17:02:39 <TallTed> +0.8
Ted Thibodeau: +0.8 ←
17:02:52 <sandro> s/describeby/describedBy/
17:03:53 <bblfish> +0 don't have anything against it. Not sure what the use case is
+0 don't have anything against it. Not sure what the use case is ←
<bblfish> Arnaud: unfortunately I don't see how we can solve this now so we'll defer to next week but next week we need to make a decision and move to LC so think about this before then.
Arnaud Le Hors: unfortunately I don't see how we can solve this now so we'll defer to next week but next week we need to make a decision and move to LC so think about this before then. ←
17:08:41 <Zakim> -deiu
Zakim IRC Bot: -deiu ←
17:09:31 <SteveS> I need to drop
Steve Speicher: I need to drop ←
17:09:38 <Zakim> -SteveS
Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveS ←
17:10:27 <sandro> MembershipContainer and IndirectMembershipContainer
Sandro Hawke: MembershipContainer and IndirectMembershipContainer ←
17:11:53 <TallTed> DirectMembershipContainer and IndirectMembershipContainer
Ted Thibodeau: DirectMembershipContainer and IndirectMembershipContainer ←
17:11:53 <TallTed> subclasses of MembershipContainer :-)
Ted Thibodeau: subclasses of MembershipContainer :-) ←
17:13:39 <Zakim> -Sandro
Zakim IRC Bot: -Sandro ←
17:13:44 <Zakim> -TallTed
Zakim IRC Bot: -TallTed ←
17:13:47 <Zakim> -Arnaud
Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud ←
17:13:48 <Zakim> -bblfish
Zakim IRC Bot: -bblfish ←
17:13:53 <bblfish> by
by ←
17:14:35 <bblfish> thanks. I'll read those proposals more carefully for next time.
thanks. I'll read those proposals more carefully for next time. ←
17:17:57 <bblfish> I liked TallTed's argument about two-directional arguments :-)
I liked TallTed's argument about two-directional arguments :-) ←
17:18:08 <bblfish> I wonder if I have to close this
I wonder if I have to close this ←
17:18:48 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_LDP()10:00AM
Zakim IRC Bot: disconnecting the lone participant, pchampin, in SW_LDP()10:00AM ←
17:18:49 <Zakim> SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_LDP()10:00AM has ended ←
17:18:49 <Zakim> Attendees were Arnaud, deiu, TallTed, SteveS, Sandro, Ashok, ericP, bblfish, Roger, nmihindu, pchampin, codyburleson
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were Arnaud, deiu, TallTed, SteveS, Sandro, Ashok, ericP, bblfish, Roger, nmihindu, pchampin, codyburleson ←
17:23:37 <bblfish> trackbot, end meeting
trackbot, end meeting ←
17:23:37 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees ←
17:23:37 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is ←
17:23:45 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes ←
17:23:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-ldp-minutes.html trackbot
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/02/24-ldp-minutes.html trackbot ←
17:23:46 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye ←
17:23:46 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items ←
Formatted by CommonScribe