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00:44:42 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-irc
RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-irc ←
00:46:10 <ivan> zakim, this is dpub
Ivan Herman: zakim, this is dpub ←
00:46:10 <Zakim> ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dpub".
Zakim IRC Bot: ivan, I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be dpub". ←
00:46:19 <ivan> zakim, this will be dpub
Ivan Herman: zakim, this will be dpub ←
00:46:19 <Zakim> ok, ivan; I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; I see SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM scheduled to start in 14 minutes ←
00:56:33 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started ←
00:56:38 <Zakim> + +1.201.387.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.387.aaaa ←
00:57:21 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is tzviya
Tzviya Siegman: zakim, aaaa is tzviya ←
00:57:21 <Zakim> +tzviya; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +tzviya; got it ←
00:59:45 <ivan> hi tzviya, we will dial in shortly
Ivan Herman: hi tzviya, we will dial in shortly ←
00:59:51 <ivan> but people are just gathering...
Ivan Herman: but people are just gathering... ←
00:59:57 <tzviya> ok, thanks
Tzviya Siegman: ok, thanks ←
01:00:18 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan ←
01:00:18 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
01:00:20 <Zakim> +Songshan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan ←
01:04:46 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
Zakim IRC Bot: +JeanKaplansky ←
01:05:41 <mgylling_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Markus Gylling: Zakim, who is on the phone? ←
01:05:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky ←
01:08:38 <gcapiel> scribe: gcapiel
(Scribe set to Gerardo Capiel)
01:09:10 <mgylling_> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov
Markus Gylling: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov ←
01:09:21 <gcapiel> mygilling: let's look at agenda
Scribe problem: the name 'mygilling' does not match any of the 57 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown mygilling: let's look at agenda ←
01:09:47 <gcapiel> … robin berjon is coming in to talk about html5
… robin berjon is coming in to talk about html5 ←
01:10:08 <gcapiel> … we also have toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks
… we also have toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks ←
01:10:17 <gcapiel> … other than that agenda is stable
… other than that agenda is stable ←
01:10:35 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 5 minutes
Ivan Herman: let's take 5 minutes ←
01:11:12 <gcapiel> … there's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years. there's also a mailing. people didn't know what to sign up for. which has created problems
… there's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years. there's also a mailing. people didn't know what to sign up for. which has created problems ←
01:11:35 <gcapiel> … let's merge the two mailing lists by either discontinuing or redirecting one
… let's merge the two mailing lists by either discontinuing or redirecting one ←
01:11:49 <gcapiel> … we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both
… we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both ←
01:11:55 <gcapiel> … and listened to by the tracker
… and listened to by the tracker ←
01:12:01 <gcapiel> … plan to do it next week
… plan to do it next week ←
01:12:11 <gcapiel> … email will go out on this
… email will go out on this ←
01:12:50 <mgylling_> unchanged: public-digipub-ig@w3.org : only IG members can send mail, but anyone can access the archives
Scribe problem: the name 'unchanged' does not match any of the 57 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown unchanged: public-digipub-ig@w3.org : only IG members can send mail, but anyone can access the archives [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ] ←
01:14:13 <mgylling_> ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org
Markus Gylling: ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org ←
01:14:46 <gcapiel> ivan: -ig will be used for mailing agenda
Ivan Herman: -ig will be used for mailing agenda ←
01:14:53 <gcapiel> mgylling: back to the agenda
Markus Gylling: back to the agenda ←
01:14:56 <ivan> Topic: Behavioral adaption
01:15:16 <gcapiel> … @tzviya should we start with wiki?
… @tzviya should we start with wiki? ←
01:15:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: sent out email about agenda
Tzviya Siegman: sent out email about agenda ←
01:15:51 <gcapiel> … a few ideas on wiki that are categorized. let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases
… a few ideas on wiki that are categorized. let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases ←
01:16:07 <gcapiel> … a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion
… a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion ←
01:16:16 <tmichel> Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect.
Thierry Michel: Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect. ←
01:16:16 <tmichel> <tmichel> in favor of ...
Thierry Michel: <tmichel> in favor of ... ←
01:16:16 <tmichel> <public-digipub
Thierry Michel: <public-digipub ←
01:16:17 <gcapiel> … the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup
… the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup ←
01:16:39 <gcapiel> … looking at use case of book semantics
… looking at use case of book semantics ←
01:16:54 <gcapiel> … publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names
… publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names ←
01:17:05 <gcapiel> … examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles
… examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles ←
01:17:13 <tmichel> the IG list is .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list public-digipub-ig (public archive).
Thierry Michel: the IG list is .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list public-digipub-ig (public archive). ←
01:17:27 <gcapiel> … case study is another example from book publishing. other parts of publishing have their own uses cases
… case study is another example from book publishing. other parts of publishing have their own uses cases ←
01:18:05 <gcapiel> … when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle. in this case we're talking about chapter title
… when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle. in this case we're talking about chapter title ←
01:18:17 <gcapiel> … benefit will be improved display, usability and discoverability
… benefit will be improved display, usability and discoverability ←
01:18:38 <gcapiel> … use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC
… use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC ←
01:19:20 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing. if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package.
Markus Gylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing. if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package. ←
01:19:34 <gcapiel> … in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html
… in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html ←
01:19:44 <gcapiel> tzviya: this is getting more granular
Tzviya Siegman: this is getting more granular ←
01:20:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this
Markus Gylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this ←
01:20:23 <gcapiel> … we need to find weak points where we need to focus
… we need to find weak points where we need to focus ←
01:20:34 <gcapiel> … i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata
… i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata ←
01:20:38 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
01:20:50 <gcapiel> tzviya: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail
Tzviya Siegman: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail ←
01:21:07 <gcapiel> mygilling: vocabs are shallow right now, but it would be worked with them
Scribe problem: the name 'mygilling' does not match any of the 57 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown mygilling: vocabs are shallow right now, but it would be worked with them ←
01:21:09 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+ ←
01:21:17 <gcapiel> tzviya: this use is trying to show the detail
Tzviya Siegman: this use is trying to show the detail ←
01:21:30 <gcapiel> … more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely
… more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely ←
01:21:39 <gcapiel> … each publisher is doing it differently
… each publisher is doing it differently ←
01:21:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: that is the problem. lack of predictability
Markus Gylling: that is the problem. lack of predictability ←
01:21:59 <gcapiel> … and lack of detail as you say
… and lack of detail as you say ←
01:22:25 <gcapiel> ivan: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki
Ivan Herman: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki ←
01:22:32 <gcapiel> … i would consider that an anti-pattern
… i would consider that an anti-pattern ←
01:23:10 <gcapiel> … when i have discussions with guha and why they don't want to use microformats. they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses
… when i have discussions with guha and why they don't want to use microformats. they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses ←
01:23:20 <gcapiel> … we should stay away from microformats
… we should stay away from microformats ←
01:23:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done
Tzviya Siegman: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done ←
01:24:03 <gcapiel> mgylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa
Markus Gylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa ←
01:24:36 <gcapiel> ivan: that is my other point. with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI
Ivan Herman: that is my other point. with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI ←
01:24:57 <gcapiel> … what is the URI for that book instance? or that book publication. we don't have an answer
… what is the URI for that book instance? or that book publication. we don't have an answer ←
01:25:11 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly. that is why we have the issue in the wiki
Tzviya Siegman: exactly. that is why we have the issue in the wiki ←
01:25:49 <gcapiel> ivan: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future. there may be other areas with the same problem. or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its
Ivan Herman: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future. there may be other areas with the same problem. or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its ←
01:26:13 <gcapiel> … which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin. decision has to be made or some unknown third one
… which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin. decision has to be made or some unknown third one ←
01:26:41 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+ ←
01:26:43 <gcapiel> mgylling: but in terms of this particular use case. maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue
Markus Gylling: but in terms of this particular use case. maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue ←
01:26:50 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan ←
01:27:04 <gcapiel> … we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level
… we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level ←
01:27:18 <mgylling_> ack Jean
Markus Gylling: ack Jean ←
01:28:06 <gcapiel> jeank: going back to the edupub conf. there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there. this is a practice that has gone a long time. we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub
Jean Kaplansky: going back to the edupub conf. there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there. this is a practice that has gone a long time. we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub ←
01:28:41 <gcapiel> … a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just. need to be bumped up to top of priority list
… a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just. need to be bumped up to top of priority list ←
01:29:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in. and it's an anti-pattern
Markus Gylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in. and it's an anti-pattern ←
01:29:25 <gcapiel> … if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ...
… if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ... ←
01:30:04 <gcapiel> jeanK: oreilly came out it differently than pearson and others. it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how.
Jean Kaplansky: oreilly came out it differently than pearson and others. it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how. ←
01:30:19 <gcapiel> mgylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy
Markus Gylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy ←
01:30:35 <gcapiel> jeank: i heard that tshould not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse
Jean Kaplansky: i heard that tshould not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse ←
01:30:53 <gcapiel> ivan: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back
Ivan Herman: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back ←
01:31:30 <gcapiel> gcapiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe
Gerardo Capiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe ←
01:31:38 <gcapiel> jeanK: level of detail is not there yet
Jean Kaplansky: level of detail is not there yet ←
01:32:16 <gcapiel> tzviya: i agree that is high priority
Tzviya Siegman: i agree that is high priority ←
01:32:24 <gcapiel> … class is playing a strong role
… class is playing a strong role ←
01:33:00 <gcapiel> … i have a few use cases where we need to define markup. i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup.
… i have a few use cases where we need to define markup. i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup. ←
01:33:05 <gcapiel> … let's look at the index ones
… let's look at the index ones ←
01:33:43 <gcapiel> … http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1
… http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1 ←
01:34:06 <gcapiel> … this is bit complicated because of filtering. once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated
… this is bit complicated because of filtering. once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated ←
01:34:44 <gcapiel> … index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3
… index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3 ←
01:35:04 <gcapiel> … this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup
… this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup ←
01:35:30 <gcapiel> ivan: i would like to understand from html / css friends pov whether something is missing
Ivan Herman: i would like to understand from html / css friends pov whether something is missing ←
01:36:05 <gcapiel> … i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends? or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue
… i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends? or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue ←
01:36:42 <gcapiel> tzviya: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive. if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub
Tzviya Siegman: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive. if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub ←
01:36:57 <gcapiel> … then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes
… then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes ←
01:37:09 <gcapiel> ivan: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one
Ivan Herman: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one ←
01:37:35 <gcapiel> … if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler. is there anything more than that?
… if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler. is there anything more than that? ←
01:37:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: i think not?
Markus Gylling: i think not? ←
01:37:55 <gcapiel> … this is exemplify why we need additional metadata.
… this is exemplify why we need additional metadata. ←
01:37:57 <gcapiel> ivan: yes
Ivan Herman: yes ←
01:38:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way.
Tzviya Siegman: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way. ←
01:39:05 <gcapiel> … if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section. concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind
… if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section. concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind ←
01:39:29 <gcapiel> mgylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup. question of why not do this in css?
Markus Gylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup. question of why not do this in css? ←
01:39:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: could be done in css. it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span
Tzviya Siegman: could be done in css. it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span ←
01:40:41 <gcapiel> … not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats. it would make like easier.
… not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats. it would make like easier. ←
01:40:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: this is a bit different than others. it is an authoring time switching mechanism
Markus Gylling: this is a bit different than others. it is an authoring time switching mechanism ←
01:41:04 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly
Tzviya Siegman: exactly ←
01:42:00 <gcapiel> ivan: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern. so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine.
Ivan Herman: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern. so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine. ←
01:42:35 <gcapiel> … maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5. ow, using css class selectors seems fine
… maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5. ow, using css class selectors seems fine ←
01:43:06 <gcapiel> mgylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started.
Markus Gylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started. ←
01:43:27 <gcapiel> … book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth. but others are examples of extending html
… book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth. but others are examples of extending html ←
01:44:18 <gcapiel> … are there others? for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type
… are there others? for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type ←
01:44:27 <gcapiel> … but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something
… but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something ←
01:44:36 <gcapiel> tzviya: can look into ibooks specific attributes
Tzviya Siegman: can look into ibooks specific attributes ←
01:45:07 <gcapiel> jeank: we just need to document their custom epub like types. some drive navigational type features. we can pull a list together
Jean Kaplansky: we just need to document their custom epub like types. some drive navigational type features. we can pull a list together ←
01:45:33 <gcapiel> mgylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set
Markus Gylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set ←
01:45:47 <gcapiel> tzviya: need to be careful about IP
Tzviya Siegman: need to be careful about IP ←
01:46:12 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need to generalize use cases
Markus Gylling: we need to generalize use cases ←
01:46:18 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
01:47:04 <gcapiel> mgylling: need to look at all special hooks out there
Markus Gylling: need to look at all special hooks out there ←
01:47:26 <gcapiel> … are you two sufficient sources of all this info?
… are you two sufficient sources of all this info? ←
01:47:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: we can use more info
Tzviya Siegman: we can use more info ←
01:48:01 <gcapiel> tzviya: we are working with bisg looking at this.
Tzviya Siegman: we are working with bisg looking at this. ←
01:48:11 <gcapiel> mgyling: that group will have all this
Markus Gylling: that group will have all this ←
01:48:24 <gcapiel> s/mgyling/mgylling/
01:48:57 <gcapiel> mgylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list.
Markus Gylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list. ←
01:49:09 <gcapiel> … we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed
… we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed ←
01:49:30 <gcapiel> jeank: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics.
Jean Kaplansky: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics. ←
01:49:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup
Markus Gylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup ←
01:50:22 <gcapiel> jeank: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs.
Jean Kaplansky: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs. ←
01:50:40 <mgylling_> q?
Markus Gylling: q? ←
01:50:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe.
Markus Gylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe. ←
01:50:47 <mgylling_> ack Ivan
Markus Gylling: ack Ivan ←
01:51:32 <gcapiel> ivan: getting back to id issue. is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad)
Ivan Herman: getting back to id issue. is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad) ←
01:52:39 <gcapiel> ivan: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique. then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id. however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore.
Ivan Herman: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique. then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id. however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore. ←
01:52:50 <gcapiel> … do we have the easy or hard problem?
… do we have the easy or hard problem? ←
01:53:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique...
Tzviya Siegman: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique... ←
01:53:52 <gcapiel> ivan: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id. but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device.
Ivan Herman: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id. but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device. ←
01:53:59 <gcapiel> … are your examples on first or second?
… are your examples on first or second? ←
01:54:11 <gcapiel> … second case would be for use annotation
… second case would be for use annotation ←
01:54:35 <gcapiel> … we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily.
… we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily. ←
01:55:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: to make it more complicated. if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately
Tzviya Siegman: to make it more complicated. if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately ←
01:55:42 <gcapiel> ivan: not a problem using fragment IDs. we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work
Ivan Herman: not a problem using fragment IDs. we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work ←
01:55:58 <gcapiel> brady_duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7
Brady Duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7 ←
01:56:34 <gcapiel> ivan: isbn for title. problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine.
Ivan Herman: isbn for title. problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine. ←
01:57:02 <gcapiel> brady_duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier
Brady Duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier ←
01:57:17 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is. whether isbn is good enough
Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is. whether isbn is good enough ←
01:57:23 <gcapiel> brady_duga: some do not use isbn
Brady Duga: some do not use isbn ←
01:57:30 <gcapiel> ivan: then we have a problem
Ivan Herman: then we have a problem ←
01:57:49 <gcapiel> tzviya: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7?
Tzviya Siegman: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7? ←
01:58:16 <gcapiel> … pub will need to be rewired. fragment id creates unique id.
… pub will need to be rewired. fragment id creates unique id. ←
01:58:22 <mgylling_> darobin: you joining us soonish?
Robin Berjon: you joining us soonish? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ] ←
01:58:28 <gcapiel> brady_duga: questions of how you know ownership
Brady Duga: questions of how you know ownership ←
01:58:34 <gcapiel> … based on a unique ID
… based on a unique ID ←
01:58:42 <gcapiel> … out of my area
… out of my area ←
01:58:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: can't imagine doing this without isbn
Tzviya Siegman: can't imagine doing this without isbn ←
01:59:13 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is with publishers
Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is with publishers ←
01:59:26 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+ ←
01:59:42 <gcapiel> brady_duga: lack of unique ID is a bug.
Brady Duga: lack of unique ID is a bug. ←
01:59:51 <gcapiel> … spec should assume that there are unique ID
… spec should assume that there are unique ID ←
02:00:51 <gcapiel> ivan: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension. not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty
Ivan Herman: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension. not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty ←
02:00:55 <mgylling_> ack Jean
Markus Gylling: ack Jean ←
02:01:25 <gcapiel> tzviya: libraries do not use isbn. most libraries use loc cataloguing number.
Tzviya Siegman: libraries do not use isbn. most libraries use loc cataloguing number. ←
02:01:52 <gcapiel> jeank: each country has their own way.
Jean Kaplansky: each country has their own way. ←
02:02:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme?
Markus Gylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme? ←
02:02:26 <gcapiel> ivan: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI
Ivan Herman: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI ←
02:02:45 <gcapiel> … we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN
… we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN ←
02:03:07 <gcapiel> … it's ok. but if we use rdfa we need identifier. microdata doesn't address this issue.
… it's ok. but if we use rdfa we need identifier. microdata doesn't address this issue. ←
02:03:17 <gcapiel> … because you use itemscope and props
… because you use itemscope and props ←
02:03:42 <gcapiel> … it's left vague and undef. personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree.
… it's left vague and undef. personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree. ←
02:03:56 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan what is the takeaway here?
Markus Gylling: ivan what is the takeaway here? ←
02:04:42 <gcapiel> ivan: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help. what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that
Ivan Herman: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help. what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that ←
02:04:53 <gcapiel> … tzviya's examples could be done that way
… tzviya's examples could be done that way ←
02:05:00 <gcapiel> … that's a way of doing it
… that's a way of doing it ←
02:05:35 <gcapiel> … if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't.
… if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't. ←
02:05:44 <gcapiel> … and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID
… and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID ←
02:06:00 <gcapiel> … if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open
… if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open ←
02:06:31 <gcapiel> mgylling: discussing two different things. struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill.
Markus Gylling: discussing two different things. struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill. ←
02:06:45 <gcapiel> ivan: rdfa lite is not an overkill. similar to microdata in terms of complexity
Ivan Herman: rdfa lite is not an overkill. similar to microdata in terms of complexity ←
02:07:04 <gcapiel> … we need vocab and someone needs to define it
… we need vocab and someone needs to define it ←
02:07:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: idpf has it
Markus Gylling: idpf has it ←
02:07:35 <gcapiel> … not following. between prior discussions
… not following. between prior discussions ←
02:08:00 <gcapiel> ivan: it's a mix. indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well
Ivan Herman: it's a mix. indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well ←
02:08:09 <gcapiel> … not clean
… not clean ←
02:08:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: can i send you an example that you can markup?
Tzviya Siegman: can i send you an example that you can markup? ←
02:08:35 <gcapiel> ivan: yes, not this week
Ivan Herman: yes, not this week ←
02:08:43 <gcapiel> … but send it
… but send it ←
02:08:48 <JeanK> +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision!
Jean Kaplansky: +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision! ←
02:10:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: taking a 2-3 minute break
Markus Gylling: taking a 2-3 minute break ←
02:16:51 <gcapiel> zakim, who is talking?
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
zakim, who is talking? ←
02:17:04 <Zakim> gcapiel, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Songshan (100%)
Zakim IRC Bot: gcapiel, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Songshan (100%) ←
02:22:12 <gcapiel> mgylling: we could use epub- for class attributes
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Markus Gylling: we could use epub- for class attributes ←
02:22:46 <ivan> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon, W3C
02:22:48 <gcapiel> mgylling: welcome robin. timely we were just talking about its 2.0
Markus Gylling: welcome robin. timely we were just talking about its 2.0 ←
02:23:07 <gcapiel> … robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv
… robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv ←
02:23:34 <gcapiel> … basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html
… basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html ←
02:23:59 <gcapiel> … situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics. epub uses epub:
… situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics. epub uses epub: ←
02:24:18 <gcapiel> … oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute
… oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute ←
02:24:28 <gcapiel> darobin: that's wrong
Robin Berjon: that's wrong ←
02:24:37 <gcapiel> mgylling: pearson is doing a mix.
Markus Gylling: pearson is doing a mix. ←
02:24:54 <gcapiel> … we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral
… we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral ←
02:25:01 <gcapiel> … collection that works in xhtml and html
… collection that works in xhtml and html ←
02:25:12 <gcapiel> … and looks and behaves the same way
… and looks and behaves the same way ←
02:25:20 <gcapiel> … it would be interesting to look at its 2.0
… it would be interesting to look at its 2.0 ←
02:25:36 <gcapiel> darobin: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details.
Robin Berjon: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details. ←
02:26:17 <gcapiel> … what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix. the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html
… what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix. the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html ←
02:26:29 <gcapiel> … this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub
… this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub ←
02:26:45 <gcapiel> … in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same
… in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same ←
02:27:00 <gcapiel> ivan: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean?
Ivan Herman: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean? ←
02:27:11 <gcapiel> darobin: we don't want to list everything that a user can support
Robin Berjon: we don't want to list everything that a user can support ←
02:27:17 <gcapiel> … people should be free to mix stuff up
… people should be free to mix stuff up ←
02:27:39 <gcapiel> … based on what the user agents support
… based on what the user agents support ←
02:27:57 <gcapiel> … if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine
… if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine ←
02:28:07 <gcapiel> … by html working group standard it's perfectly
… by html working group standard it's perfectly ←
02:28:24 <gcapiel> ivan: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody
Ivan Herman: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody ←
02:28:38 <gcapiel> darobin: technically we don't need anything. we don't give out stamps of approval
Robin Berjon: technically we don't need anything. we don't give out stamps of approval ←
02:29:04 <gcapiel> … that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec
… that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec ←
02:29:44 <gcapiel> ivan: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem. we just need to specify epub-
Ivan Herman: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem. we just need to specify epub- ←
02:30:05 <gcapiel> … if idpf or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go. is that good enough?
… if idpf or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go. is that good enough? ←
02:30:17 <gcapiel> darobin: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted
Robin Berjon: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted ←
02:30:25 <gcapiel> ivan: does it need to be much?
Ivan Herman: does it need to be much? ←
02:30:35 <gcapiel> darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages
darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages ←
02:30:42 <gcapiel> … doesn't have to be complicated
… doesn't have to be complicated ←
02:30:58 <gcapiel> tzviya: what about extensibility of this list?
Tzviya Siegman: what about extensibility of this list? ←
02:31:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: that's the values
Markus Gylling: that's the values ←
02:31:27 <gcapiel> ivan: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub-
Ivan Herman: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub- ←
02:31:37 <gcapiel> darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding
darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding ←
02:31:50 <gcapiel> … they check syntax. and it depends on the spec
… they check syntax. and it depends on the spec ←
02:32:02 <gcapiel> … and the value space that you are defining
… and the value space that you are defining ←
02:32:20 <gcapiel> … attributes names need to be fixed
… attributes names need to be fixed ←
02:32:38 <gcapiel> … because in it's hard to check partial names
… because in it's hard to check partial names ←
02:33:02 <gcapiel> ivan: that's doable
Ivan Herman: that's doable ←
02:33:09 <gcapiel> darobin: you can always add attributes
Robin Berjon: you can always add attributes ←
02:33:22 <gcapiel> … you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month
… you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month ←
02:33:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: epub-type would be primary one
Markus Gylling: epub-type would be primary one ←
02:35:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast.
Markus Gylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast. ←
02:35:17 <gcapiel> … what does w3c suggest?
… what does w3c suggest? ←
02:35:38 <gcapiel> … it's a note. which only takes about a week once doc is done
… it's a note. which only takes about a week once doc is done ←
02:35:49 <gcapiel> darobin: could be 24 hours once publishing happens
Robin Berjon: could be 24 hours once publishing happens ←
02:35:54 <gcapiel> ivan: not a big deal
Ivan Herman: not a big deal ←
02:36:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space?
Markus Gylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space? ←
02:36:39 <gcapiel> ivan: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider
Ivan Herman: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider ←
02:36:55 <gcapiel> … doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea
… doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea ←
02:37:13 <JeanK> ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C...
Jean Kaplansky: ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C... ←
02:37:25 <gcapiel> ivan: we will find a way
Ivan Herman: we will find a way ←
02:37:44 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's talk about pagination dom events
Markus Gylling: let's talk about pagination dom events ←
02:38:17 <gcapiel> … let's summarize quickly
… let's summarize quickly ←
02:38:38 <gcapiel> … both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression
… both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression ←
02:38:47 <gcapiel> … we did ask to move title stuff into metadata
… we did ask to move title stuff into metadata ←
02:39:00 <gcapiel> … we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue
… we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue ←
02:39:45 <gcapiel> mgylling: what about identfiers conundrum?
Markus Gylling: what about identfiers conundrum? ←
02:40:16 <gcapiel> ivan: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics
Ivan Herman: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics ←
02:40:29 <Zakim> -Songshan
Scribe problem: the name 'Songshan' does not match any of the 58 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Zakim IRC Bot: -Songshan ←
02:40:29 <gcapiel> … let's push it to annotation people where it's a major issue
… let's push it to annotation people where it's a major issue ←
02:40:45 <tzviya> we lost the phone line
Tzviya Siegman: we lost the phone line ←
02:40:46 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan ←
02:40:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
02:40:48 <Zakim> +Songshan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan ←
02:41:22 <darobin> Zakim, who's making noise?
Robin Berjon: Zakim, who's making noise? ←
02:41:34 <Zakim> darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%)
Zakim IRC Bot: darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%) ←
02:41:38 <JeanK> Tzviya and I are!!!
Jean Kaplansky: Tzviya and I are!!! ←
02:41:39 <ivan> zakim, drop songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, drop songshan ←
02:41:39 <Zakim> Songshan is being disconnected
Zakim IRC Bot: Songshan is being disconnected ←
02:41:40 <Zakim> -Songshan
Scribe problem: the name 'Songshan' does not match any of the 58 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Zakim IRC Bot: -Songshan ←
02:41:48 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan ←
02:41:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made ←
02:41:48 <duga> We are trying to get back on
Brady Duga: We are trying to get back on ←
02:41:49 <Zakim> +Songshan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan ←
02:42:31 <gcapiel> ivan: [replaying discusion]
Ivan Herman: [replaying discusion] ←
02:43:33 <ivan> Topic: dom events, pagination
02:43:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination
Markus Gylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination ←
02:45:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: speaking of pagination. dave cramer is working on issues around it. questions around pagination really means. when we take a html doc and break into pages. what is a page and what pages should be visible. ordering. how do we know a page has loaded. we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective.
Brady Duga: speaking of pagination. dave cramer is working on issues around it. questions around pagination really means. when we take a html doc and break into pages. what is a page and what pages should be visible. ordering. how do we know a page has loaded. we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective. ←
02:45:13 <fjh> zakim, code>
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code> ←
02:45:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code>', fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'code>', fjh ←
02:45:18 <fjh> zakim, code?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code? ←
02:45:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh ←
02:45:37 <gcapiel> darobin: good questions. lots of diff answers. if entire book is a doc or something large than page. page is viewport.
Robin Berjon: good questions. lots of diff answers. if entire book is a doc or something large than page. page is viewport. ←
02:45:57 <gcapiel> … does not give you page number
… does not give you page number ←
02:45:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
02:46:04 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] i sme
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] i sme ←
02:46:04 <Zakim> I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh ←
02:46:20 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
02:46:20 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +fjh; got it ←
02:46:53 <gcapiel> brady_duga: not saying everything is defined. some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model. recommend creating new events like next page, previous page. this is easy.
Brady Duga: not saying everything is defined. some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model. recommend creating new events like next page, previous page. this is easy. ←
02:47:20 <gcapiel> brady_duga: viewport is not quite good enough.
Brady Duga: viewport is not quite good enough. ←
02:47:34 <gcapiel> darobin: don't use xquery for this
Robin Berjon: don't use xquery for this ←
02:48:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things
Brady Duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things ←
02:48:31 <gcapiel> darobin: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable.
Robin Berjon: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable. ←
02:48:48 <gcapiel> … for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was
… for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was ←
02:49:02 <gcapiel> … laptop? time was lost in def
… laptop? time was lost in def ←
02:49:25 <gcapiel> … agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages.
… agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages. ←
02:49:36 <gcapiel> … you may not need all of it for good content
… you may not need all of it for good content ←
02:50:29 <gcapiel> brady_duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page. right now it kind of works, but is painful. would be better to do at browser level for performance
Brady Duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page. right now it kind of works, but is painful. would be better to do at browser level for performance ←
02:51:14 <gcapiel> ivan: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do
Ivan Herman: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do ←
02:51:35 <gcapiel> brady_duga: webkit kind of has this.
Brady Duga: webkit kind of has this. ←
02:51:46 <gcapiel> … but not exposed
… but not exposed ←
02:52:06 <gcapiel> … not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page
… not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page ←
02:52:09 <gcapiel> … internal trick
… internal trick ←
02:52:31 <gcapiel> ivan: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff. let's collect info what's done today and what's painful.
Ivan Herman: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff. let's collect info what's done today and what's painful. ←
02:52:42 <gcapiel> … so we can understand the level of abstraction needed.
… so we can understand the level of abstraction needed. ←
02:52:58 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need.
Markus Gylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need. ←
02:53:02 <gcapiel> to trigger actions
to trigger actions ←
02:53:10 <gcapiel> … and various things actors need to do
… and various things actors need to do ←
02:53:47 <gcapiel> ivan: readium should give us info where problems where
Ivan Herman: readium should give us info where problems where ←
02:53:58 <tzviya> q
Tzviya Siegman: q ←
02:54:01 <tzviya> +
Tzviya Siegman: + ←
02:54:04 <tzviya> q+
Tzviya Siegman: q+ ←
02:54:32 <ivan> ack tzviya
Ivan Herman: ack tzviya ←
02:54:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: term pagination means many things and it's confusing
Tzviya Siegman: term pagination means many things and it's confusing ←
02:54:56 <gcapiel> … we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint
… we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint ←
02:55:09 <gcapiel> … for example dealing with widows, etc.
… for example dealing with widows, etc. ←
02:55:16 <gcapiel> … brady_duga is talking about event triggers
… brady_duga is talking about event triggers ←
02:55:34 <JeanK> +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy.
Jean Kaplansky: +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy. ←
02:55:55 <gcapiel> … let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers
… let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers ←
02:56:18 <gcapiel> ivan: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc.
Ivan Herman: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc. ←
02:56:37 <gcapiel> darobin: depends on what's on the doc. it should not be about styling.
Robin Berjon: depends on what's on the doc. it should not be about styling. ←
02:56:45 <gcapiel> ivan: we have a separate doc on styling issues
Ivan Herman: we have a separate doc on styling issues ←
02:57:09 <gcapiel> darobin: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group
Robin Berjon: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group ←
02:57:23 <gcapiel> … not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own
… not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own ←
02:57:40 <gcapiel> … html5 official req still needs to be shipped
… html5 official req still needs to be shipped ←
02:57:53 <gcapiel> … area i'm in interested in
… area i'm in interested in ←
02:58:03 <gcapiel> … and others too
… and others too ←
02:58:22 <gcapiel> ivan: we knew this is the way this should happen
Ivan Herman: we knew this is the way this should happen ←
02:58:45 <gcapiel> darobin: we do see this needed in browsers too
Robin Berjon: we do see this needed in browsers too ←
02:58:56 <gcapiel> brady_duga: we have reading systems in browsers too
Brady Duga: we have reading systems in browsers too ←
02:59:03 <gcapiel> ivan: do we do this with dom4?
Ivan Herman: do we do this with dom4? ←
02:59:18 <gcapiel> darobin: yes. dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible
Robin Berjon: yes. dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible ←
02:59:55 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 15
Ivan Herman: let's take 15 ←
03:00:30 <Zakim> -fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh ←
03:00:31 <Zakim> -tzviya
Zakim IRC Bot: -tzviya ←
03:00:33 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
Zakim IRC Bot: -JeanKaplansky ←
03:10:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
(No events recorded for 10 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller] ←
03:10:35 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] is me ←
03:10:35 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
Zakim IRC Bot: +fjh; got it ←
03:10:37 <Zakim> -Songshan
Scribe problem: the name 'Songshan' does not match any of the 58 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Zakim IRC Bot: -Songshan ←
03:10:37 <Zakim> +Songshan
Zakim IRC Bot: +Songshan ←
03:10:53 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is here? ←
03:10:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Songshan, fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Songshan, fjh ←
03:10:55 <Zakim> On IRC I see trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_, fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_, fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, ←
03:10:55 <Zakim> ... plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: ... plinss ←
03:24:16 <fjh> /me will probably drop of in 30 minutes or so
(No events recorded for 13 minutes)
Frederick Hirsch: /me will probably drop of in 30 minutes or so ←
03:24:49 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is here? ←
03:24:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Songshan, fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Songshan, fjh ←
03:24:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_, ←
03:24:50 <Zakim> ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss ←
03:25:20 <tmichel> scribe: tmichel
(Scribe set to Thierry Michel)
03:25:26 <tmichel> topic:security
03:25:44 <tmichel> digital publishing security issues
digital publishing security issues ←
03:26:46 <tmichel> digitral books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, to modify
digitral books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, to modify ←
03:27:00 <tmichel> but several challenges and issues ...
but several challenges and issues ... ←
03:27:14 <tmichel> distribution content ...
distribution content ... ←
03:27:44 <tmichel> publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ...
publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ... ←
03:28:09 <tmichel> Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place
Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place ←
03:28:41 <tmichel> ... Users can purchase content from publishers site ...
... Users can purchase content from publishers site ... ←
03:29:04 <tmichel> There are security at each of these level.
There are security at each of these level. ←
03:30:15 <tmichel> ant each level from moved publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase
ant each level from moved publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase ←
03:30:52 <tmichel> New slides: publishers related security issues
New slides: publishers related security issues ←
03:30:54 <fjh> is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing?
Frederick Hirsch: is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing? ←
03:31:09 <tmichel> ... during content development
... during content development ←
03:32:16 <tmichel> right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness)
right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness) ←
03:32:25 <tmichel> transmission/distribution
transmission/distribution ←
03:32:47 <tmichel> making sure the digital content is securely transmitted.
making sure the digital content is securely transmitted. ←
03:32:58 <tmichel> Next slide Client side issues
Next slide Client side issues ←
03:33:40 <tmichel> encryption on Device dpub books are always encrypted on users devices
encryption on Device dpub books are always encrypted on users devices ←
03:34:02 <tmichel> securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device
securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device ←
03:34:54 <tmichel> Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) ....
Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) .... ←
03:35:16 <tmichel> or limitrd number of devices content can be opened on.
or limitrd number of devices content can be opened on. ←
03:35:52 <tmichel> Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technos
Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technos ←
03:36:42 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+ ←
03:37:31 <mgylling_> ack fjh
Markus Gylling: ack fjh ←
03:38:16 <tmichel> frederic: republishing issues ?
Frederick Hirsch: republishing issues ? ←
03:38:35 <tmichel> Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation
Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation ←
03:38:54 <fjh> my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail
Frederick Hirsch: my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail ←
03:38:55 <tmichel> NExt slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution
NExt slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution ←
03:39:07 <fjh> is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual?
Frederick Hirsch: is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual? ←
03:39:21 <fjh> otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc?
Frederick Hirsch: otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc? ←
03:39:28 <fjh> really just a question
Frederick Hirsch: really just a question ←
03:39:56 <tmichel> Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line)
Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line) ←
03:40:21 <tmichel> and copy and un-authorised distribution
and copy and un-authorised distribution ←
03:41:05 <tmichel> prevent un-authorised copies
prevent un-authorised copies ←
03:41:38 <tmichel> Next slide: un-authorised copy and distribution
Next slide: browser support for digital books ←
03:47:31 <tmichel> s/un-authorised copy and distribution/browser support for digital books/
03:48:12 <fjh> what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Frederick Hirsch: what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others ←
03:48:41 <tmichel> digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device
digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device ←
03:48:54 <tmichel> which triggers issues.
which triggers issues. ←
03:49:04 <tmichel> next slide Next steps
next slide Next steps ←
03:49:49 <tmichel> provide input, develop detailed Use cases
provide input, develop detailed Use cases ←
03:50:00 <tmichel> privicy issues.
privicy issues. ←
03:50:45 <tmichel> Mgylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ?
Markus Gylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ? ←
03:51:34 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+ ←
03:51:38 <fjh> I suspect users don't want DRM at all
Frederick Hirsch: I suspect users don't want DRM at all ←
03:51:42 <mgylling_> ack Ivan
Markus Gylling: ack Ivan ←
03:51:48 <tmichel> proiders and publisher have each their own DRM system
providerss and publisher have each their own DRM system ←
03:52:05 <tmichel> s/proider/providers/
03:52:47 <tmichel> Ivan: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM
Ivan Herman: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM ←
03:53:00 <fjh> watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user
Frederick Hirsch: watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user ←
03:53:46 <tmichel> Sharad: So many solutions that are not all working
Sharad Garg: So many solutions that are not all working ←
03:54:00 <tmichel> therfore should list use Cases ...
therfore should list use Cases ... ←
03:54:28 <tmichel> Ivan: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ...
Ivan Herman: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ... ←
03:54:43 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+ ←
03:54:55 <tmichel> ... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ...
... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ... ←
03:55:15 <tmichel> Sharad: it is not only DRM but also security issues
Sharad Garg: it is not only DRM but also security issues ←
03:55:27 <ivan> ack fjh
Ivan Herman: ack fjh ←
03:56:35 <tmichel> sharad: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements.
Sharad Garg: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements. ←
03:56:52 <tmichel> Then, see to who we should input these requirements.
Then, see to who we should input these requirements. ←
03:57:11 <tmichel> And maybe technology already exist.
And maybe technology already exist. ←
03:58:11 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+ ←
03:58:38 <tmichel> ivan: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM
Ivan Herman: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM ←
03:59:19 <tmichel> mgylling: this iw exactly what happened in idph when we started collecting these kind of UCs.
Markus Gylling: this iw exactly what happened in idpf when we started collecting these kind of UCs. ←
03:59:39 <tmichel> We couldn't achive anything in this field.
We couldn't achive anything in this field. ←
03:59:40 <mgylling_> s/idph/idpf/
03:59:42 <ivan> ack fjh
Ivan Herman: ack fjh ←
04:00:23 <tmichel> Sharad: happy to do some more work if needed.
Sharad Garg: happy to do some more work if needed. ←
04:01:17 <tmichel> ivan: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub.
Ivan Herman: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub. ←
04:01:19 <fjh> DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed
Frederick Hirsch: DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed ←
04:02:03 <fjh> We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email
Frederick Hirsch: We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email ←
04:02:16 <tmichel> privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books.
privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books. ←
04:02:23 <fjh> +1
Frederick Hirsch: +1 ←
04:02:47 <tmichel> ... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy
... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy ←
04:03:47 <tmichel> sharad: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues.
Sharad Garg: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues. ←
04:04:24 <tmichel> Mgylling: Any one to repport on EME ?
Markus Gylling: Any one to repport on EME ? ←
04:04:40 <tmichel> ivan: current spycho drama ;-)
Ivan Herman: current psycho drama ;-) ←
04:05:16 <tmichel> ivan: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch.
Ivan Herman: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch. ←
04:05:40 <tmichel> ... need to have a secure envirement within the browser.
... need to have a secure envirement within the browser. ←
04:05:55 <tmichel> mgylling: anymore issues ?
Markus Gylling: anymore issues ? ←
04:06:14 <tmichel> ...maybe we should break for lunch ...
...maybe we should break for lunch ... ←
04:06:32 <Zakim> -fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: -fjh ←
04:07:26 <tmichel> mgylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues
Markus Gylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues ←
04:08:05 <tmichel> s/spycho/psycho/
04:21:57 <Zakim> -Songshan
Scribe problem: the name 'Songshan' does not match any of the 58 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
(No events recorded for 14 minutes)
Zakim IRC Bot: -Songshan ←
04:21:59 <Zakim> SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has ended ←
04:21:59 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.201.387.aaaa, tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky, fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were +1.201.387.aaaa, tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky, fjh ←
04:22:32 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
rrsagent, draft minutes ←
04:22:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html tmichel ←
05:33:36 <duga> test
(No events recorded for 71 minutes)
Brady Duga: test ←
05:34:57 <duga> scribe: duga
(Scribe set to Brady Duga)
05:35:07 <duga> topic: Accessibility
05:35:41 <duga> Guest: Jason White
05:35:51 <ivan> Guest: Jason White
05:36:43 <duga> Jason: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y
Jason White: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y ←
05:37:06 <duga> ... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub
... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub ←
05:37:21 <duga> ... will help us pilot through other WGs
... will help us pilot through other WGs ←
05:37:58 <duga> mgylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority
Markus Gylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority ←
05:38:43 <duga> ... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech
... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech ←
05:39:23 <duga> ... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing
... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing ←
05:39:31 <duga> ... want to enable it everywhere
... want to enable it everywhere ←
05:39:59 <duga> ... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books
... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books ←
05:40:18 <duga> ... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying
... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying ←
05:40:34 <duga> ... need to point out differences
... need to point out differences ←
05:41:02 <duga> ... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis
... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis ←
05:41:24 <duga> ... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon
... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon ←
05:41:37 <duga> ... 2 - are there any gaps?
... 2 - are there any gaps? ←
05:42:18 <duga> gcapiel: will run through unordered laundry list
Gerardo Capiel: will run through unordered laundry list ←
05:42:25 <duga> ... then lets prioritize
... then lets prioritize ←
05:42:52 <duga> ... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group?
... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group? ←
05:43:32 <duga> ... need to cover all areas of assistive tech
... need to cover all areas of assistive tech ←
05:43:41 <duga> ... Would like input on who we should pull in
... Would like input on who we should pull in ←
05:43:58 <duga> ... Problem areas - SVG
... Problem areas - SVG ←
05:44:21 <duga> ... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted
... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted ←
05:44:36 <duga> ... May not support everything we need
... May not support everything we need ←
05:45:01 <duga> ... descr attribute can't have rich text
... descr attribute can't have rich text ←
05:45:29 <duga> ivan: What about html via foreign object?
Ivan Herman: What about html via foreign object? ←
05:45:38 <duga> gcapiel: not supported by screen readers
Gerardo Capiel: not supported by screen readers ←
05:45:45 <duga> ... need to drill down on use cases
... need to drill down on use cases ←
05:46:22 <duga> ... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at
... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at ←
05:46:39 <duga> ... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document
... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document ←
05:46:57 <duga> ... might want short description, long desc, etc
... might want short description, long desc, etc ←
05:47:23 <duga> ... These are new areas we need to define some semantics
... These are new areas we need to define some semantics ←
05:47:56 <duga> ivan: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg
Ivan Herman: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg ←
05:48:09 <duga> gcapiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu
Gerardo Capiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu ←
05:48:39 <duga> ... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu
... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu ←
05:49:07 <duga> ... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released
... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released ←
05:49:36 <duga> ... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features
... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features ←
05:49:52 <duga> ... may want to use annotations to implement that
... may want to use annotations to implement that ←
05:50:08 <duga> ... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub
... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub ←
05:50:42 <duga> ... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML)
... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML) ←
05:51:10 <duga> ... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images)
... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images) ←
05:51:16 <duga> ... none really good enough
... none really good enough ←
05:51:53 <duga> ... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural
... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural ←
05:52:35 <duga> ... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml
... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml ←
05:52:53 <duga> mgylling: nemeth braille may be US centric
Markus Gylling: nemeth braille may be US centric ←
05:53:41 <duga> jason: mathematics codes not standard
Jason White: mathematics codes not standard ←
05:54:25 <duga> ... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation
... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation ←
05:54:55 <duga> gcapiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable
Gerardo Capiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable ←
05:55:12 <duga> guest: Andrew Kirkpatrick
05:55:37 <duga> gcapiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True?
Gerardo Capiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True? ←
05:55:49 <ivan> s/Kirkpatrick/Kirkpatrick, Adobe/
05:55:59 <duga> Jason: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far
Jason White: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far ←
05:56:44 <duga> ... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that
... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that ←
05:57:19 <duga> ivan: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again
Ivan Herman: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again ←
05:57:41 <duga> mgylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille)
Markus Gylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille) ←
05:58:11 <duga> gcapiel: looking at runtime braille conversion
Gerardo Capiel: looking at runtime braille conversion ←
05:58:24 <duga> andrew: useful when we have haptic displays?
Andrew Kirkpatrick: useful when we have haptic displays? ←
05:58:45 <duga> jason: maybe now is the time
Jason White: maybe now is the time ←
05:59:33 <duga> mgylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition
Markus Gylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition ←
05:59:56 <duga> ... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good
... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good ←
06:00:06 <duga> andrew: and there are legal reasons in the US
Andrew Kirkpatrick: and there are legal reasons in the US ←
06:00:19 <duga> jason: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate
Jason White: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate ←
06:00:25 <duga> ... back to svg
... back to svg ←
06:00:39 <duga> ... aria support getting in to svg
... aria support getting in to svg ←
06:00:53 <duga> ... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document
... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document ←
06:01:13 <duga> ... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases
... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases ←
06:01:50 <duga> ... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui
... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui ←
06:02:02 <duga> ... don't know if anyone is working on it
... don't know if anyone is working on it ←
06:02:25 <duga> mgylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics)
Markus Gylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics) ←
06:02:43 <duga> ... this group could propose extensions to aria
... this group could propose extensions to aria ←
06:03:02 <duga> ... mark hakkenen is the new member
... mark Hakkinen is the new member ←
06:03:27 <duga> jason: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions
Jason White: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions ←
06:03:41 <duga> gcapiel: css speech - don't know what we need
Gerardo Capiel: css speech - don't know what we need ←
06:03:48 <duga> ... implementation lacking
... implementation lacking ←
06:03:56 <duga> jason: where are we on the spec?
Jason White: where are we on the spec? ←
06:04:08 <duga> ... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1
... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1 ←
06:04:26 <duga> mgylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck
Markus Gylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck ←
06:04:40 <ivan> s/hakkenen/Hakkinen/
06:04:49 <duga> ... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere
... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere ←
06:04:57 <duga> ... is marked as at-risk by css wg
... is marked as at-risk by css wg ←
06:05:02 <duga> ivan: why?
Ivan Herman: why? ←
06:05:08 <duga> mgylling: no implementations?
Markus Gylling: no implementations? ←
06:05:48 <duga> jason: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css
Jason White: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css ←
06:05:57 <duga> ... could be a convergence of interest
... could be a convergence of interest ←
06:06:09 <duga> ... pay attention to and contribute to css
... pay attention to and contribute to css ←
06:06:26 <duga> andrew: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow
Andrew Kirkpatrick: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow ←
06:06:54 <duga> gcapiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech
Gerardo Capiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech ←
06:07:19 <duga> mgylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries
Markus Gylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries ←
06:07:36 <duga> ... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP
... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP ←
06:07:46 <duga> ... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations
... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations ←
06:08:17 <duga> ivan: haven't heard any epub specific issues
Ivan Herman: haven't heard any epub specific issues ←
06:08:28 <duga> ... all OWP issues that we happen to share
... all OWP issues that we happen to share ←
06:08:45 <duga> ... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems
... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems ←
06:09:14 <duga> .. we can't comment on css in general
.. we can't comment on css in general ←
06:09:31 <duga> mgylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub
Markus Gylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub ←
06:09:46 <duga> ... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things
... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things ←
06:10:32 <duga> duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general
Brady Duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general ←
06:10:44 <duga> ivan: are there features in the specs that are really missing?
Ivan Herman: are there features in the specs that are really missing? ←
06:11:00 <duga> ... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with
... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with ←
06:11:08 <duga> gcapiel: well, there is braille
Gerardo Capiel: well, there is braille ←
06:11:18 <duga> ivan: yes, css braille is one we should look at
Ivan Herman: yes, css braille is one we should look at ←
06:11:54 <duga> jason: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention
Jason White: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention ←
06:12:27 <duga> ... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues
... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues ←
06:12:53 <duga> ivan: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc)
Ivan Herman: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc) ←
06:13:20 <duga> ... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features?
... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features? ←
06:13:31 <duga> ... are any of these things ones only we care about?
... are any of these things ones only we care about? ←
06:13:42 <duga> gcapiel: biggest one is annotations piece
Gerardo Capiel: biggest one is annotations piece ←
06:14:01 <duga> gcapiel: braille, annotations, ...
Gerardo Capiel: braille, annotations, ... ←
06:14:53 <duga> gcapiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations
Gerardo Capiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations ←
06:15:12 <duga> andrew: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail
Andrew Kirkpatrick: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail ←
06:15:49 <duga> ivan: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes
Ivan Herman: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes ←
06:16:15 <duga> ... yeah, it a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient
... yeah, it a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient ←
06:16:29 <duga> ... these are the things we should try to collect
... these are the things we should try to collect ←
06:16:40 <duga> gcapiel: in that vein, web speech is another one
Gerardo Capiel: in that vein, web speech is another one ←
06:16:53 <duga> ... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused
... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused ←
06:17:10 <duga> ... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech
... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech ←
06:17:29 <duga> mgylling: infographics and assessments are lacking
Markus Gylling: infographics and assessments are lacking ←
06:18:07 <duga> ivan: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing
Ivan Herman: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing ←
06:18:17 <duga> ... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them?
... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them? ←
06:18:25 <duga> gcapiel: probably not - need new members
Gerardo Capiel: probably not - need new members ←
06:18:35 <duga> ... wonder what high priority items are for pubs
... wonder what high priority items are for pubs ←
06:18:56 <duga> andrew: uag approaching last call
Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag approaching last call ←
06:19:07 <duga> ... atag in the same situation
... atag in the same situation ←
06:19:35 <duga> ... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA
... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA ←
06:19:45 <duga> ivan: seems like it is all UA at the moment
Ivan Herman: seems like it is all UA at the moment ←
06:20:09 <duga> jason: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS?
Jason White: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS? ←
06:20:12 <duga> mgylling: yes
Markus Gylling: yes ←
06:20:37 <duga> jason: that means all the OWP tech is in place
Jason White: that means all the OWP tech is in place ←
06:20:47 <duga> ... though may not be accessible
... though may not be accessible ←
06:21:35 <duga> ivan: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser
Ivan Herman: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser ←
06:22:08 <duga> ivan: do ereaders use canvas?
Ivan Herman: do ereaders use canvas? ←
06:22:25 <duga> mgylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas
Markus Gylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas ←
06:22:42 <duga> ... because of crappy typography
... because of crappy typography ←
06:23:00 <duga> ivan: canvas is an a11y nightmare
Ivan Herman: canvas is an a11y nightmare ←
06:23:09 <duga> jason: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y
Jason White: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y ←
06:23:27 <duga> andrew: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible
Andrew Kirkpatrick: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible ←
06:23:46 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list?
Markus Gylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list? ←
06:24:14 <duga> gcapiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA)
Gerardo Capiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA) ←
06:24:28 <duga> jason: that includes css as well, right?
Jason White: that includes css as well, right? ←
06:24:37 <duga> gcapiel: Huh?
Gerardo Capiel: Huh? ←
06:24:45 <duga> jason: you referred to css speech
Jason White: you referred to css speech ←
06:24:58 <duga> mgylling: need pronunciation lexicons
Markus Gylling: need pronunciation lexicons ←
06:25:04 <duga> ivan: mathml?
Ivan Herman: mathml? ←
06:25:13 <duga> gcapiel: mathml semantics, yes
Gerardo Capiel: mathml semantics, yes ←
06:25:24 <duga> ... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml
... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml ←
06:25:29 <duga> mgylling: good luck with that
Markus Gylling: good luck with that ←
06:25:44 <duga> ... is there work on this?
... is there work on this? ←
06:25:50 <duga> gcapiel: I don't know
Gerardo Capiel: I don't know ←
06:26:06 <duga> mgylling: what is the state of this?
Markus Gylling: what is the state of this? ←
06:26:18 <duga> gcapiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml
Gerardo Capiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml ←
06:26:50 <duga> ivan: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp
Ivan Herman: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp ←
06:27:01 <duga> gcapiel: and there is the fallbacks issue
Gerardo Capiel: and there is the fallbacks issue ←
06:28:04 <duga> mgylling: do we care how we generate good mathml?
Markus Gylling: do we care how we generate good mathml? ←
06:28:31 <duga> andrew: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS
Andrew Kirkpatrick: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS ←
06:28:42 <duga> ... design science has some success
... design science has some success ←
06:28:54 <duga> gcapiel: but it has limited scope (IE only)
Gerardo Capiel: but it has limited scope (IE only) ←
06:29:30 <duga> jason: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start?
Jason White: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start? ←
06:29:45 <duga> ... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway?
... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway? ←
06:30:15 <duga> andrew: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap
Andrew Kirkpatrick: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap ←
06:30:54 <duga> jason: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies
Jason White: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies ←
06:32:11 <duga> <discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand>
<discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand> ←
06:33:39 <duga> jason: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes.
Jason White: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes. ←
06:35:06 <duga> ... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs
... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs ←
06:36:00 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look?
Markus Gylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look? ←
06:36:10 <duga> gcapiel: will need help on assessments
Gerardo Capiel: will need help on assessments ←
06:36:19 <duga> mgylling: mark hakkinen to help with that
Markus Gylling: mark hakkinen to help with that ←
06:36:38 <duga> gcapiel: can look at infographics and web speech
Gerardo Capiel: can look at infographics and web speech ←
06:36:52 <duga> ... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help
... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help ←
06:37:13 <duga> ... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing
... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing ←
06:37:37 <duga> mgylling: when is ?? up as a draft?
Markus Gylling: when is UAAG up as a draft? ←
06:37:48 <duga> andrew: atag is soon or already happened.
Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag is soon or already happened. ←
06:38:00 <duga> ... before eoy, both of them
... before eoy, both of them ←
06:38:05 <duga> mgylling: LC?
Markus Gylling: LC? ←
06:38:13 <duga> andrew: one is CR, maybe
Andrew Kirkpatrick: one is CR, maybe ←
06:38:14 <ivan> s/??/UAAG/
06:38:21 <duga> mgylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt
Markus Gylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt ←
06:38:41 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
06:38:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←
06:38:45 <duga> gcapiel: web API for braille support is a new one
Gerardo Capiel: web API for braille support is a new one ←
06:39:29 <duga> andrew: atag was CR on nov 7th
Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag was CR on nov 7th ←
06:39:42 <duga> jason: mathml is a significant issue
Jason White: mathml is a significant issue ←
06:39:56 <duga> ... makes content inaccessible without it
... makes content inaccessible without it ←
06:40:09 <duga> ivan: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues
Ivan Herman: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues ←
06:40:27 <duga> gcapiel: mathml barely comes up in a11y guidelines
Gerardo Capiel: mathml barely comes up in UAAG guidelines ←
06:40:41 <duga> andrew: uag was LC nov 7
Andrew Kirkpatrick: UAAG was LC nov 7 ←
06:40:51 <mgylling> s/a11y/UAAG/
06:41:05 <ivan> s/uag/UAAG/
06:41:31 <duga> jason: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help?
Jason White: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help? ←
06:41:38 <duga> ... need new tech, not guidelines
... need new tech, not guidelines ←
06:42:01 <duga> ... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech
... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech ←
06:42:14 <duga> andrew: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly
Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly ←
06:43:29 <duga> jason: need the minutes
Jason White: need the minutes ←
06:43:39 <duga> action: ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes
ACTION: ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes ←
06:43:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19]. ←
06:45:28 <mgylling> scribe: Sharad
(Scribe set to Sharad Garg)
06:45:48 <mgylling> topic: Testing (with Tobie Langel)
06:47:09 <ivan> Guest: Tobie (tobie) Langel, W3C
06:47:11 <tobie> https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/
Tobie Langel: https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/ ←
06:48:43 <Sharad> tobie: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward
Tobie Langel: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward ←
06:49:57 <Sharad> ... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5
... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5 ←
06:51:16 <Sharad> ... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing
... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing ←
06:52:13 <Sharad> ... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed
... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed ←
06:53:17 <Sharad> ... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions
... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions ←
06:54:34 <Sharad> mgylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited
Markus Gylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited ←
06:56:48 <Sharad> tobie: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry
Tobie Langel: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry ←
06:58:02 <Sharad> ... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs
... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs ←
06:59:24 <Sharad> ... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices
... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices ←
07:01:20 <Sharad> ... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests
... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests ←
07:02:16 <Sharad> ... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests
... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests ←
07:05:24 <duga> IDL
Brady Duga: IDL ←
07:06:18 <Sharad> ... tobie: special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing
... tobie: special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing ←
07:06:57 <Sharad> .. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput
.. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput ←
07:07:30 <Sharad> get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests
get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests ←
07:09:03 <Sharad> ... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport;
... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport; ←
07:15:07 <Sharad> ivan: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core?
(No events recorded for 6 minutes)
Ivan Herman: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core? ←
07:20:11 <Sharad> tobie: i am not rigth person to ask technical details
(No events recorded for 5 minutes)
Tobie Langel: i am not rigth person to ask technical details ←
07:22:52 <Sharad> ivan: publisher will want produce typography nicety
Ivan Herman: publisher will want produce typography nicety ←
07:23:22 <Sharad> duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line
Brady Duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line ←
07:25:29 <Sharad> ivan: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS
Ivan Herman: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS ←
07:29:06 <Sharad> ivan: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help
Ivan Herman: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help ←
07:30:58 <Sharad> tobie: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits
Tobie Langel: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits ←
07:32:08 <Sharad> mgylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system
Markus Gylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system ←
07:33:07 <Sharad> .. do we good online intro to webdriver?
.. do we good online intro to webdriver? ←
07:33:14 <Sharad> tobie: no
Tobie Langel: no ←
07:33:46 <Sharad> ... nothing about driver structure
... nothing about driver structure ←
07:34:02 <Sharad> ivan: can look at web code to understand?
Ivan Herman: can look at web code to understand? ←
07:35:36 <Sharad> no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue
no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue ←
07:37:28 <Sharad> ivan: how is it related to validation project?
Ivan Herman: how is it related to validation project? ←
07:37:42 <Sharad> tobie: completely different scope
Tobie Langel: completely different scope ←
07:42:27 <Sharad> tobie: looking for options to scale
Tobie Langel: looking for options to scale ←
07:44:39 <Sharad> ivan: start the process here and then show readium
Ivan Herman: start the process here and then show readium ←
07:46:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
07:46:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan ←
08:15:13 <dauwhe_> Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies
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Dave Cramer: Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies ←
08:31:49 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
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Thierry Michel: rrsagent, draft minutes ←
08:31:49 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html tmichel ←
08:37:08 <dauwhe_> ScribeNick: dauwhe
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(Scribe set to Dave Cramer)
08:37:17 <dauwhe_> Topic: backgrounds and borders
08:37:39 <dauwhe_> fantasai: issue that backgrounds and borders defines in what order short orders are extended
Scribe problem: the name 'fantasai' does not match any of the 62 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Jason White Jason White Andrew Kirkpatrick Tobie Langel Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown fantasai: issue that backgrounds and borders doesn't define in what order short orders are extended ←
08:37:46 <dauwhe_> ... what should I do with this issue?
... what should I do with this issue? ←
08:38:03 <dauwhe_> ... should it go in spec?
... should it go in spec? ←
08:38:11 <dauwhe_> dbaron: we should test implementations first
Scribe problem: the name 'dbaron' does not match any of the 62 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Jason White Jason White Andrew Kirkpatrick Tobie Langel Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown dbaron: we should test implementations first ←
08:38:18 <dauwhe_> s/defines/doesn't define/
08:38:34 <dauwhe_> ... not urgent. Worth doing, but test implemtations first.
... not urgent. Worth doing, but test implemtations first. ←
08:38:53 <dauwhe_> fantasai: will people will be happy if we ??? this from level 3?
Scribe problem: the name 'fantasai' does not match any of the 62 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Jason White Jason White Andrew Kirkpatrick Tobie Langel Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown fantasai: will people will be happy if we ??? this from level 3? ←
08:39:06 <dauwhe_> ???: could you describe the issue again?
???: could you describe the issue again? ←
08:39:30 <dauwhe_> dbaron: if there's a shorthand property, what order do the longhand properties take in the object model.
Scribe problem: the name 'dbaron' does not match any of the 62 active names. Either change the name used, or request the list of names be altered.Active names: Alan Tam Alan Stearns Ben Ko Bert Bos Bill Kasdorf Brady Duga Carlos San Jose Daniel Schwabe Dave Cramer Dmitry Shkolnik Erik Mannens Frank Liu Frederick Hirsch George Kerscher George Walkley Gerardo Capiel Hajar Ghaem Sigarchian Ivan Herman Jean Kaplansky Jiphun Satapathy Jirka Kosek Jun Fujisawa Koji Ishii Laura Fowler Liam Quin Livio Mondini Madi Solomon Marilyn Siderwicz Markku Hakkinen Markus Gylling Miel Vander Sande Mohamed ZERGAOUI Naitik Tyagi Paolo Ciccarese Peter Linss Pierre Danet Prashant Prashant Priyanka Malik Richard Bowles Richard Schwerdtfeger Robert Sanderson Robin Berjon Sharad Garg Somnath Chandra Suzanne Taylor Swaran Lata Thierry Michel Tim Clark Tom Burns Tom De Nies Tyng-Ruey Chuang Tzviya Siegman Vlad Stirbu Vladimir Levantovsky Robin Berjon Jason White Jason White Andrew Kirkpatrick Tobie Langel Zakim IRC Bot Trackbot IRC Bot RRSAgent IRC Bot
Unknown dbaron: if there's a shorthand property, what order do the longhand properties take in the object model. ←
08:39:46 <dauwhe_> ???: the spec is aligned with what implementations do.
???: the spec is aligned with what implementations do. ←
08:40:22 <dauwhe_> ??? is looking up the spec.
??? is looking up the spec. ←
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