None.
Zakim IRC Bot: SW_DPUB-IG()8:00PM has now started
00:56:38 <Zakim> + +1.201.387.aaaa
Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.201.387.aaaa
00:57:21 <tzviya> zakim, aaaa is tzviya
Tzviya Siegman: zakim, aaaa is tzviya
00:57:21 <Zakim> +tzviya; got it
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00:59:45 <ivan> hi tzviya, we will dial in shortly
00:59:51 <ivan> but people are just gathering..
00:59:57 <tzviya> ok, thanks
01:00:18 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan
01:00:18 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made
01:00:20 <Zakim> +Songshan
01:04:46 <Zakim> +JeanKaplansky
01:05:41 <mgylling_> Zakim, who is on the phone?
Markus Gylling: Zakim, who is on the phone?
01:05:41 <Zakim> On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see tzviya, Songshan, JeanKaplansky
01:08:38 <gcapiel> scribe: gcapiel
(Scribe set to Gerardo Capiel)
01:09:10 <mgylling_> http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov
Markus Gylling: http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/TPAC-F2F#Tuesday_12_Nov
Markus Gylling: let's look at agenda
01:09:47 <gcapiel> � robin berjon is coming in to talk about html5
Robin Berjon is coming in to talk about HTML5
01:10:08 <gcapiel> � we also have toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks
we also have Toby coming in to talk about webdrive and the future of testing in ebooks
01:10:17 <gcapiel> � other than that agenda is stable
other than that agenda is stable
01:10:35 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 5 minutes
Ivan Herman: let's take 5 minutes
01:11:12 <gcapiel> � there's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years. there's also a mailing. people didn't know what to sign up for. which has created problems
There's been a misunderstanding. community that predates our work by 1.5 years. there's also a mailing. people didn't know what to sign up for. which has created problems
01:11:49 <gcapiel> � we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both
01:11:35 <gcapiel> � let's merge the two mailing lists by either discontinuing or redirecting one let's merge the two mailing lists by
either discontinuing or redirecting one
we will merge subscribers and interest group people will be on both
01:11:55 <gcapiel> � and listened to by the trackerand listened to by the tracker
01:12:01 <gcapiel> � plan to do it next week
01:12:11 <gcapiel> � email will go out on this
[ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]
01:14:13 <mgylling_> ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org
Markus Gylling: ... and public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org : completely public both for writing, reading and subscribing, will be discontinued in favor of public-digipub@w3.org
01:14:46 <gcapiel> ivan: -ig will be used for mailing agenda
Ivan Herman: IG will be used for mailing agenda
01:14:53 <gcapiel> mgylling: back to the agenda
Markus Gylling: back to the agenda
01:14:56 <ivan> Topic: Behavioral adaption
01:15:16 <gcapiel> � @tzviya should we start with wiki?
@Tzviya should we start with wiki?
01:15:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: sent out email about agenda
Tzviya Siegman: sent out email about agenda
01:15:51 <gcapiel> � a few ideas on wiki that are categorized. let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases
a few ideas on wiki that are categorized. let's talk about background ideas and then look at use cases
01:16:07 <gcapiel> � a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion
a lot will tie back to prior discussions, but there is room for more discussion
01:16:16 <tmichel> Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect.
Thierry Michel: Comments from the public to the Interest Group are welcome on the public comment list public-digipub-ig-comment (public archive). should be discontinued and be redirect.
01:16:16 <tmichel> <tmichel> in favor of ...
Thierry Michel: <tmichel> in favor of ... public-digipub
01:16:17 <gcapiel> � the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup
the first issue is establishing vocab for finding markup
01:16:39 <gcapiel> � looking at use case of book semantics
looking at use case of book semantics
01:16:54 <gcapiel> � publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names
publications use a lot of components, perhaps we want to standardize component names
01:17:05 <gcapiel> � examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles
examples are different components of chapter title or sidebars with titles
01:17:13 <tmichel> the IG list is .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list public-digipub-ig (public archive).
Thierry Michel: the IG list is public-digipub-ig (public archive). .... All Interest Group participants are automatically subscribed to the group's main discussion list
01:17:27 <gcapiel> � case study is another example from book publishing. other parts of publishing have their own uses cases
case study is another example from book publishing. other parts of publishing have their own uses cases
01:18:05 <gcapiel> � when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle. in this case we're talking about chapter title
when we talk about dublin core metadata we have spec for when we use title versus subtitle. in this case we're talking about chapter title
01:18:17 <gcapiel> � benefit will be improved display, usability and discoverability
benefit will be improved display, usability and discover-ability
01:18:38 <gcapiel> � use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC
use case in front is w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructSem_UC
01:19:20 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing. if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package.
Markus Gylling: let's see if we're talking about the same thing. if we look at epub the formal name of titles that a book may have is in package.
01:19:34 <gcapiel> � in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html
in the future the package file might be redundant and we can do it in just the html
01:19:44 <gcapiel> tzviya: this is getting more granular
Tzviya Siegman: this is getting more granular
01:20:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this
Markus Gylling: we all know that rdfa exists and there are semantics at schema.org that enable some of this
01:20:23 <gcapiel> � we need to find weak points where we need to focus
we need to find weak points where we need to focus
01:20:34 <gcapiel> � i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata
i.e. what's missing in the replacement for package metadata
01:20:38 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+
01:20:50 <gcapiel> tzviya: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail
Tzviya Siegman: i could argue with you whether it could be done in schema.org do this level of detail
Markus Gylling: vocabs are shallow right now, but it would be worked with them01:21:09 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+
01:21:17 <gcapiel> tzviya: this use is trying to show the detail
Tzviya Siegman: this use is trying to show the detail
01:21:30 <gcapiel> � more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely
more details need to be explored if this is to be done widely
01:21:39 <gcapiel> � each publisher is doing it differently
each publisher is doing it differently
01:21:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: that is the problem. lack of predictability
Markus Gylling: that is the problem. lack of predictability
01:21:59 <gcapiel> � and lack of detail as you say
01:22:25 <gcapiel> ivan: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki
Ivan Herman: one thing that i would warn against is to use the class attribute for this kind of thing like you did here in the the example in the wiki
01:22:32 <gcapiel> � i would consider that an anti-pattern
i would consider that an anti-pattern
01:23:10 <gcapiel> � when i have discussions with guha and why they don't want to use microformats. they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses
when i have discussions with Guha and why they don't want to use microformats. they said usage of class attribute for vocabs created lots of problems with clashes with other uses
01:23:20 <gcapiel> � we should stay away from microformats
we should stay away from microformats
01:23:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done
Tzviya Siegman: i understand, but that is how is it commonly done
01:24:03 <gcapiel> mgylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa
Markus Gylling: on that topic if the problem we want to get through is the lack of detail and predictability we could go with rdfa
01:24:36 <gcapiel> ivan: that is my other point. with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI
Ivan Herman: that is my other point. with my semantic web hat, from a purist point of view if we talk about rdfa or microdata what we do is assign some properties to a subject, which is a URI
01:24:57 <gcapiel> � what is the URI for that book instance? or that book publication. we don't have an answer
what is the URI for that book instance? or that book publication. we don't have an answer
01:25:11 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly. that is why we have the issue in the wiki
Tzviya Siegman: exactly. that is why we have the issue in the wiki
01:25:49 <gcapiel> ivan: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future. there may be other areas with the same problem. or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its
Ivan Herman: let's pick up the issue of identifiers at some point in the future. there may be other areas with the same problem. or we use some dpub specific attribute like are used for aria or its
01:26:13 <gcapiel> � which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin. decision has to be made or some unknown third one
which is the kind of discussion we may have with robin. decision has to be made or some unknown third one
01:26:41 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+
01:26:43 <gcapiel> mgylling: but in terms of this particular use case. maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue
Markus Gylling: but in terms of this particular use case. maybe we are deviating, but i think we may want to lift from behavioral adaptive, since this is purely a metadata issue
01:26:50 <ivan> ack ivan
Ivan Herman: ack ivan
01:27:04 <gcapiel> � we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level
we need a way for predictablity at the microdata and html level
01:27:18 <mgylling_> ack Jean
Markus Gylling: ack Jean
01:28:06 <gcapiel> jeank: going back to the edupub conf. there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there. this is a practice that has gone a long time. we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub
Jean Kaplansky: going back to the edupub conf. there was heavy use of class attribute demonstrated there. this is a practice that has gone a long time. we need to straighten that out before stuff goes too much further with 100 day initiative coming out of edupub
01:28:41 <gcapiel> � a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just. need to be bumped up to top of priority list
a lot of what tzviya is talking about is not just. need to be bumped up to top of priority list
01:29:07 <gcapiel> mgylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in. and it's an anti-pattern
Markus Gylling: when robin comes we will talk about this and you're right that edupub profile is mixing class attribute in. and it's an anti-pattern
01:29:25 <gcapiel> � if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ...
if you look at oreilly they also started with class and they discovered ...
01:30:04 <gcapiel> jeanK: oreilly came out it differently than pearson and others. it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how.
Jean Kaplansky: oreilly came out it differently than Pearson and others. it would be better if we had a schema.org solution. but we don't have that how.
01:30:19 <gcapiel> mgylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy
Markus Gylling: oreilly know uses data-type instead because it gets messy
01:30:35 <gcapiel> jeank: i heard that tshould not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse
Jean Kaplansky: i heard that should not be using data attribute either, because it was a misuse
01:30:53 <gcapiel> ivan: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back
Ivan Herman: that's correct and we had long discussion with html5 people and we were pushed back
01:31:30 <gcapiel> gcapiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe
Gerardo Capiel: bib-ex is looking at this maybe
01:31:38 <gcapiel> jeanK: level of detail is not there yet
Jean Kaplansky: level of detail is not there yet
01:32:16 <gcapiel> tzviya: i agree that is high priority
Tzviya Siegman: i agree that is high priority
01:32:24 <gcapiel> � class is playing a strong role
class is playing a strong role
01:33:00 <gcapiel> � i have a few use cases where we need to define markup. i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup.
i have a few use cases where we need to define markup. i have a few examples around index and notes and media specific markup.
01:33:05 <gcapiel> � let's look at the index ones
01:33:43 <gcapiel> � http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC#Behavioral_1
01:34:06 <gcapiel> � this is bit complicated because of filtering. once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated
this is bit complicated because of filtering. once you have categories in place then concept of collapsing cats is not as complicated
01:34:44 <gcapiel> � index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3
index 3 : http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Behavioral_UC3#Behavioral_3
01:35:04 <gcapiel> � this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup
this is a bit more complicated, but should be achievable in markup
01:35:30 <gcapiel> ivan: i would like to understand from html / css friends pov whether something is missing
Ivan Herman: i would like to understand from html / css friends, whether something is missing
01:36:05 <gcapiel> � i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends? or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue
i was wondering if for these problems what is missing in the html/css and other friends? or is something that can be implemented with judicious javascript and it's not a spec issue
01:36:42 <gcapiel> tzviya: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive. if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub
Tzviya Siegman: it can be done today with scripting, but it's complicated and labor intensive. if we had a uniform way to do it and this term indicates a category of indexing like in epub
01:36:57 <gcapiel> � then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes
then it would be far simpler for creating indexes or collapsing indexes
01:37:09 <gcapiel> ivan: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one
Ivan Herman: from this tech pov this is the same problem as the previous one
01:37:35 <gcapiel> � if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler. is there anything more than that?
if we have a universally accepted way of adding metadata to the various terms, then you get the addt info to make this simpler. is there anything more than that?
01:37:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: i think not?
Markus Gylling: i think not?
01:37:55 <gcapiel> � this is exemplify why we need additional metadata.
this is exemplify why we need additional metadata.
01:37:57 <gcapiel> ivan: yes
Ivan Herman: yes
01:38:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way.
Tzviya Siegman: yes and next one is also a markup issue and is doable with css. i have a product that will appear across print and digital and many of us do our markup this way.
01:39:05 <gcapiel> � if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section. concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind
if there we an easier way to have digi products skip print-only section. concept of pseudo selector crossed my mind
01:39:29 <gcapiel> mgylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup. question of why not do this in css?
Markus Gylling: we could use media, but it would be helpful to use markup. question of why not do this in css?
01:39:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: could be done in css. it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span
Tzviya Siegman: could be done in css. it's just avoiding wrapping it in a span, because it's easier to style than something more concrete than a span
01:40:41 <gcapiel> � not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats. it would make like easier.
not sure how do this with css than having to do a span for different formats. it would make like easier.
01:40:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: this is a bit different than others. it is an authoring time switching mechanism
Markus Gylling: this is a bit different than others. it is an authoring time switching mechanism
01:41:04 <gcapiel> tzviya: exactly
Tzviya Siegman: exactly
01:42:00 <gcapiel> ivan: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern. so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine.
Ivan Herman: to be honest for that example i think using class is perfectly fine and is the usual usage pattern. so to mark part of the file as print or digital only with css is fine.
01:42:35 <gcapiel> � maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5. ow, using css class selectors seems fine
maybe the on the idpf you want to have standardized class attribute names unlike html5. ow, using css class selectors seems fine
01:43:06 <gcapiel> mgylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started.
Markus Gylling: so in terms of gathering examples of why addt semantics are needed which is where we started.
01:43:27 <gcapiel> � book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth. but others are examples of extending html
book semantics 1 should be about predictability and depth. but others are examples of extending html
01:44:18 <gcapiel> � are there others? for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type
are there others? for example, more direct behavioral imperatives like ibooks:background-audio-track or something like that that are not epub or data type
01:44:27 <gcapiel> � but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something
but dedicated attribute that specifies nature of something
01:44:36 <gcapiel> tzviya: can look into ibooks specific attributes
Tzviya Siegman: can look into ibooks specific attributes
01:45:07 <gcapiel> jeank: we just need to document their custom epub like types. some drive navigational type features. we can pull a list together
Jean Kaplansky: we just need to document their custom epub like types. some drive navigational type features. we can pull a list together
01:45:33 <gcapiel> mgylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set
Markus Gylling: doesn't need to be complete, but has a fair number of examples of what pub industry is doing and it's a hetero set
01:45:47 <gcapiel> tzviya: need to be careful about IP
Tzviya Siegman: need to be careful about IP
01:46:12 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need to generalize use cases
Markus Gylling: we need to generalize use cases
01:46:18 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+
01:47:04 <gcapiel> mgylling: need to look at all special hooks out there
Markus Gylling: need to look at all special hooks out there
01:47:26 <gcapiel> � are you two sufficient sources of all this info?
are you two sufficient sources of all this info?
01:47:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: we can use more info
Tzviya Siegman: we can use more info
01:48:01 <gcapiel> tzviya: we are working with bisg looking at this.
Tzviya Siegman: we are working with bisg looking at this.
01:48:11 <gcapiel> mgyling: that group will have all this
Markus Gylling: that group will have all this
01:48:24 <gcapiel> s/mgyling/mgylling/
01:48:57 <gcapiel> mgylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list.
Markus Gylling: to summarize we just need mechanism of examples to make it clear, not an exhaustive list.
01:49:09 <gcapiel> � we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed
we just need enough to know what's absolutely needed
01:49:30 <gcapiel> jeank: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics.
Jean Kaplansky: those of those outside of epub are doing some unusual heuristics.
01:49:51 <gcapiel> mgylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup
Markus Gylling: heuristics instead of publisher provided markup
01:50:22 <gcapiel> jeank: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs.
Jean Kaplansky: it also may be interested to speak with readium, since they are familiar with w3c specs.
01:50:40 <mgylling_> q?
Markus Gylling: q?
01:50:42 <gcapiel> mgylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe.
Markus Gylling: readium does not contain heuristics, i believe.
01:50:47 <mgylling_> ack Ivan
Markus Gylling: ack Ivan
01:51:32 <gcapiel> ivan: getting back to id issue. is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad)
Ivan Herman: getting back to id issue. is it correct that in all these examples that the metadata is not on manifestation level (e.g. the book on my ipad)
01:52:39 <gcapiel> ivan: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique. then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id. however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore.
Ivan Herman: let's supposed there's an ideal world where isbn are unique. then id to be usable for microdata for rdfa using id. however if it's added to book that i own, then this id doesn't work anymore.
01:52:50 <gcapiel> � do we have the easy or hard problem?
do we have the easy or hard problem?
01:53:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique...
Tzviya Siegman: if i understand correctly, if isbn is unique...
01:53:52 <gcapiel> ivan: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id. but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device.
Ivan Herman: the isbn would be the subject for all the metadata and that would be kosher because it gives unique id. but that would not work, if i want to add to the instance on my device.
01:53:59 <gcapiel> � are your examples on first or second?
are your examples on first or second?
01:54:11 <gcapiel> � second case would be for use annotation
second case would be for use annotation
01:54:35 <gcapiel> � we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily.
we may choose for this specific use case category, we may choose to do it where ID can be done easily.
01:55:12 <gcapiel> tzviya: to make it more complicated. if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately
Tzviya Siegman: to make it more complicated. if i have a book with 10 chapters, i have one isbn for all the 10, but then i want to sell chapter 1 separately
01:55:42 <gcapiel> ivan: not a problem using fragment IDs. we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work
Ivan Herman: not a problem using fragment IDs. we have to define fragments, but not a major problem if we have an id of work
01:55:58 <gcapiel> brady_duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7
Brady Duga: only if id is unique for chapter 7
01:56:34 <gcapiel> ivan: isbn for title. problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine.
Ivan Herman: isbn for title. problem comes if i want to annotate title on my machine.
01:57:02 <gcapiel> brady_duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier
Brady Duga: you need some unique id, but you're assuming that you're assuming the subset is using the same identifier
01:57:17 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is. whether isbn is good enough
Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is. whether isbn is good enough
01:57:23 <gcapiel> brady_duga: some do not use isbn
Brady Duga: some do not use isbn
01:57:30 <gcapiel> ivan: then we have a problem
Ivan Herman: then we have a problem
01:57:49 <gcapiel> tzviya: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7?
Tzviya Siegman: do we need a unique id to sell chapter 7?
01:58:16 <gcapiel> � pub will need to be rewired. fragment id creates unique id.
pub will need to be rewired. fragment id creates unique id.
01:58:22 <mgylling_> darobin: you joining us soonish?
Robin Berjon: you joining us soonish? [ Scribe Assist by Markus Gylling ]
01:58:28 <gcapiel> brady_duga: questions of how you know ownership
Brady Duga: questions of how you know ownership
01:58:34 <gcapiel> � based on a unique ID
01:58:42 <gcapiel> � out of my area
01:58:59 <gcapiel> tzviya: can't imagine doing this without isbn
Tzviya Siegman: can't imagine doing this without isbn
01:59:13 <gcapiel> ivan: not sure what practice is with publishers
Ivan Herman: not sure what practice is with publishers
01:59:26 <JeanK> q+
Jean Kaplansky: q+
01:59:42 <gcapiel> brady_duga: lack of unique ID is a bug.
Brady Duga: lack of unique ID is a bug.
01:59:51 <gcapiel> � spec should assume that there are unique ID
spec should assume that there are unique ID
02:00:51 <gcapiel> ivan: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension. not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty
Ivan Herman: one way of moving forward of making problem a bit easier, then we don't need HTML5 extension. not sure whether schema.org has sufficient vocab or epub needs to define it with rdfa without problem is another possibilty
02:00:55 <mgylling_> ack Jean
Markus Gylling: ack Jean
02:01:25 <gcapiel> tzviya: libraries do not use isbn. most libraries use loc cataloguing number.
Tzviya Siegman: libraries do not use isbn. most libraries use loc cataloguing number.
02:01:52 <gcapiel> jeank: each country has their own way.
Jean Kaplansky: each country has their own way.
02:02:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme?
Markus Gylling: ivan in your vision are you saying everyone has to use same scheme?
02:02:26 <gcapiel> ivan: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI
Ivan Herman: no, putting on semantic hat, what rdf says subject has to have unique URI
02:02:45 <gcapiel> � we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN
we prefer http URI, but urn with ISBN
02:03:07 <gcapiel> � it's ok. but if we use rdfa we need identifier. microdata doesn't address this issue.
it's ok. but if we use rdfa we need identifier. microdata doesn't address this issue.
02:03:17 <gcapiel> � because you use itemscope and props
because you use itemscope and props
02:03:42 <gcapiel> � it's left vague and undef. personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree.
it's left vague and undef. personally it does not seem like a clean approach and html5 folks will disagree.
02:03:56 <gcapiel> mgylling: ivan what is the takeaway here?
Markus Gylling: ivan what is the takeaway here?
02:04:42 <gcapiel> ivan: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help. what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that
Ivan Herman: 1st we have to understand the options and robin can help. what does it mean if epub wants to have it's own approach. e.g. epub- or something like that
02:04:53 <gcapiel> � tzviya's examples could be done that way
tzviya's examples could be done that way
02:05:00 <gcapiel> � that's a way of doing it
02:05:35 <gcapiel> � if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't.
if it's messy or if we prefer to reuse vocabs then we can use microdata or rdfa approach and need to check whether vocab exists that covers the needs, which it probably doesn't.
02:05:44 <gcapiel> � and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID
and it needs to be define and we need to figure out ID
02:06:00 <gcapiel> � if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open
if we go html5 route, the vocab issue is still open
02:06:31 <gcapiel> mgylling: discussing two different things. struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill.
Markus Gylling: discussing two different things. struct semantics stuff where there is a pretty unison opinion that rdfa is overkill.
02:06:45 <gcapiel> ivan: rdfa lite is not an overkill. similar to microdata in terms of complexity
Ivan Herman: rdfa lite is not an overkill. similar to microdata in terms of complexity
02:07:04 <gcapiel> � we need vocab and someone needs to define it
we need vocab and someone needs to define it
02:07:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: idpf has it
Markus Gylling: idpf has it
02:07:35 <gcapiel> � not following. between prior discussions
not following. between prior discussions
02:08:00 <gcapiel> ivan: it's a mix. indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well
Ivan Herman: it's a mix. indexes for example via the index you def something deep into the contents that could be used out of that role as well
02:08:09 <gcapiel> � not clean
02:08:31 <gcapiel> tzviya: can i send you an example that you can markup?
Tzviya Siegman: can i send you an example that you can markup?
02:08:35 <gcapiel> ivan: yes, not this week
Ivan Herman: yes, not this week
02:08:43 <gcapiel> � but send it
02:08:48 <JeanK> +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision!
Jean Kaplansky: +1 on Tzviya's request for Ivan's RDF vision!
02:10:59 <gcapiel> mgylling: taking a 2-3 minute break
Markus Gylling: taking a 2-3 minute break
02:16:51 <gcapiel> zakim, who is talking?Markus Gylling: we could use epub- for class attributes
02:22:46 <ivan> Guest: Robin (darobin) Berjon, W3C
02:22:48 <gcapiel> mgylling: welcome robin. timely we were just talking about its 2.0
Markus Gylling: welcome robin. timely we were just talking about its 2.0
02:23:07 <gcapiel> � robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv
robin is one of the editors of the html5 specv
02:23:34 <gcapiel> � basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html
basically the problem cluster we have been wandering around is about metadata and behavior on top of html
02:23:59 <gcapiel> � situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics. epub uses epub:
situtation is not just about epub being stuck in html serializations, but also how to enhance semantics. epub uses epub:
02:24:18 <gcapiel> � oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute
oreilly is working on authoring time schema using class attribute, but abandoned in favor of data type attribute
02:24:28 <gcapiel> darobin: that's wrong
Robin Berjon: that's wrong
02:24:37 <gcapiel> mgylling: pearson is doing a mix.
Markus Gylling: pearson is doing a mix.
02:24:54 <gcapiel> � we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral
we would like to quickly identify a solution that is unified and serialization neutral
02:25:01 <gcapiel> � collection that works in xhtml and html
collection that works in xhtml and html
02:25:12 <gcapiel> � and looks and behaves the same way
and looks and behaves the same way
02:25:20 <gcapiel> � it would be interesting to look at its 2.0
it would be interesting to look at its 2.0
02:25:36 <gcapiel> darobin: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details.
Robin Berjon: so i'm not super familiar with ITS details.
02:26:17 <gcapiel> � what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix. the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html
what they have done is taken a bunch of attributes with its- as a prefix. the validator considers it as applicable specification and accepts it as valid html
02:26:29 <gcapiel> � this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub
this mean that the same approach that the same approach could be used by epub
02:26:45 <gcapiel> � in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same
in the same sort of spec for one or more attributes that would function the same
02:27:00 <gcapiel> ivan: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean?
Ivan Herman: what does an acceptable / applicable extension mean?
02:27:11 <gcapiel> darobin: we don't want to list everything that a user can support
Robin Berjon: we don't want to list everything that a user can support
02:27:17 <gcapiel> � people should be free to mix stuff up
people should be free to mix stuff up
02:27:39 <gcapiel> � based on what the user agents support
based on what the user agents support
02:27:57 <gcapiel> � if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine
if epub- or book- or digipub- is implemented then it's fine
02:28:07 <gcapiel> � by html working group standard it's perfectly
by html working group standard it's perfectly
02:28:24 <gcapiel> ivan: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody
Ivan Herman: does the html5 validator need a stable document spec published by somebody
02:28:38 <gcapiel> darobin: technically we don't need anything. we don't give out stamps of approval
Robin Berjon: technically we don't need anything. we don't give out stamps of approval
02:29:04 <gcapiel> � that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec
that being said, if you want it accepted by w3c validator, one way to convince them you need to have a royalty free public spec
02:29:44 <gcapiel> ivan: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem. we just need to specify epub-
Ivan Herman: if we produce a spec with a set of attribute epub-xyz and later epub-aaa, then it's not a problem. we just need to specify epub-
02:30:05 <gcapiel> � if idpf or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go. is that good enough?
if IDPF or this group publishes a note of the way we want to go. is that good enough?
02:30:17 <gcapiel> darobin: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted
Robin Berjon: can't vouch for validator team, but that seems to be what is accepted
02:30:25 <gcapiel> ivan: does it need to be much?
Ivan Herman: does it need to be much?
02:30:35 <gcapiel> darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages
darobin - if you remove the boilerplate, 2-3 pages
02:30:42 <gcapiel> � doesn't have to be complicated
doesn't have to be complicated
02:30:58 <gcapiel> tzviya: what about extensibility of this list?
Tzviya Siegman: what about extensibility of this list?
02:31:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: that's the values
Markus Gylling: that's the values
02:31:27 <gcapiel> ivan: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub-
Ivan Herman: what i'm undestanding is that the validator accepts all attribute epub-
02:31:37 <gcapiel> darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding
darobin - no, they don't like wildcarding
02:31:50 <gcapiel> � they check syntax. and it depends on the spec
they check syntax. and it depends on the spec
02:32:02 <gcapiel> � and the value space that you are defining
and the value space that you are defining
02:32:20 <gcapiel> � attributes names need to be fixed
attributes names need to be fixed
02:32:38 <gcapiel> � because in it's hard to check partial names
because in it's hard to check partial names
02:33:02 <gcapiel> ivan: that's doable
Ivan Herman: that's doable
02:33:09 <gcapiel> darobin: you can always add attributes
Robin Berjon: you can always add attributes
02:33:22 <gcapiel> � you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month
you just need to coordinate as long as it's not an attribute a month
02:33:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: epub-type would be primary one
Markus Gylling: epub-type would be primary one
02:35:10 <gcapiel> mgylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast.
Markus Gylling: from idpf perspective, we want to move fast.
02:35:17 <gcapiel> � what does w3c suggest?
02:35:38 <gcapiel> � it's a note. which only takes about a week once doc is done
it's a note. which only takes about a week once doc is done
02:35:49 <gcapiel> darobin: could be 24 hours once publishing happens
Robin Berjon: could be 24 hours once publishing happens
02:35:54 <gcapiel> ivan: not a big deal
Ivan Herman: not a big deal
02:36:09 <gcapiel> mgylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space?
Markus Gylling: should this happen in w3c or idpf space?
02:36:39 <gcapiel> ivan: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider
Ivan Herman: idpf is probably a better known place because it's not seen as much as an outsider
02:36:55 <gcapiel> � doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea
doing it only as w3c doc is not a good idea
02:37:13 <JeanK> ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C...
Jean Kaplansky: ++1 to the idea of a jointly published note from both the IDPF and W3C...
02:37:25 <gcapiel> ivan: we will find a way
Ivan Herman: we will find a way
02:37:44 <gcapiel> mgylling: let's talk about pagination dom events
Markus Gylling: let's talk about pagination dom events
02:38:17 <gcapiel> � let's summarize quickly
02:38:38 <gcapiel> � both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression
both tzviya and jeank are continuing to gather examples of custom attributes for behavioral extension or suppression
02:38:47 <gcapiel> � we did ask to move title stuff into metadata
we did ask to move title stuff into metadata
02:39:00 <gcapiel> � we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue
we have identified a path for epub- space that we will pursue
02:39:45 <gcapiel> mgylling: what about identfiers conundrum?
Markus Gylling: what about identfiers conundrum?
02:40:16 <gcapiel> ivan: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics
Ivan Herman: it seems for this category of use cases the approach we discussing with darobin is probably the way to go, thus ID discussion is not necessary for this issue, but will come back for other topics
let's push it to annotation people where it's a major issue02:40:45 <tzviya> we lost the phone line
Tzviya Siegman: we lost the phone line
02:40:46 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan
02:40:46 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made
02:40:48 <Zakim> +Songshan
02:41:22 <darobin> Zakim, who's making noise?
Robin Berjon: Zakim, who's making noise?
02:41:34 <Zakim> darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%)
Zakim IRC Bot: darobin, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: tzviya (32%), JeanKaplansky (15%)
02:41:38 <JeanK> Tzviya and I are!!!
Jean Kaplansky: Tzviya and I are!!!
02:41:48 <ivan> zakim, dial songshan
Ivan Herman: zakim, dial songshan
02:41:48 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made
02:41:48 <duga> We are trying to get back on
Brady Duga: We are trying to get back on
02:41:49 <Zakim> +Songshan
02:42:31 <gcapiel> ivan: [replaying discusion]
Ivan Herman: [replaying discusion]
02:43:33 <ivan> Topic: dom events, pagination
02:43:38 <gcapiel> mgylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination
Markus Gylling: should we quickly cover dom events and pagination
02:45:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: speaking of pagination. dave cramer is working on issues around it. questions around pagination really means. when we take a html doc and break into pages. what is a page and what pages should be visible. ordering. how do we know a page has loaded. we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective.
Brady Duga: speaking of pagination. dave cramer is working on issues around it. questions around pagination really means. when we take a html doc and break into pages. what is a page and what pages should be visible. ordering. how do we know a page has loaded. we talk about styling, but not from a dom perspective.
02:45:13 <fjh> zakim, code>
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code>
02:45:13 <Zakim> I don't understand 'code>', fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'code>', fjh
02:45:18 <fjh> zakim, code?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, code?
02:45:18 <Zakim> the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 3782 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh
02:45:37 <gcapiel> darobin: good questions. lots of diff answers. if entire book is a doc or something large than page. page is viewport.
Robin Berjon: good questions. lots of diff answers. if entire book is a doc or something large than page. page is viewport.
02:45:57 <gcapiel> � does not give you page number
02:45:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
02:46:04 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] i sme
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] i sme
02:46:04 <Zakim> I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '[IPcaller] i sme', fjh
02:46:20 <fjh> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, [IPcaller] is me
02:46:20 <Zakim> +fjh; got it
02:46:53 <gcapiel> brady_duga: not saying everything is defined. some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model. recommend creating new events like next page, previous page. this is easy.
Brady Duga: not saying everything is defined. some pieces are there in css, viewports in css object model. recommend creating new events like next page, previous page. this is easy.
02:47:20 <gcapiel> brady_duga: viewport is not quite good enough.
Brady Duga: viewport is not quite good enough.
02:47:34 <gcapiel> darobin: don't use xquery for this
Robin Berjon: don't use xquery for this
02:48:00 <gcapiel> brady_duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things
Brady Duga: don't have answers to this stuff and different browsers doing diff things
02:48:31 <gcapiel> darobin: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable.
Robin Berjon: don't do this beyond for making content interoperable.
02:48:48 <gcapiel> � for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was
for ex mobile alliance, didn't have a good definition of what a mobile device was
02:49:02 <gcapiel> � laptop? time was lost in def
02:49:25 <gcapiel> � agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages.
agree a subset of questions need to be answered, such as page change and styling for pages.
02:49:36 <gcapiel> � you may not need all of it for good content
you may not need all of it for good content
02:50:29 <gcapiel> brady_duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page. right now it kind of works, but is painful. would be better to do at browser level for performance
Brady Duga: maybe the answer is there is no such thing as a page. right now it kind of works, but is painful. would be better to do at browser level for performance
02:51:14 <gcapiel> ivan: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do
Ivan Herman: need to understand way forward by seeing what various devices do
02:51:35 <gcapiel> brady_duga: webkit kind of has this.
Brady Duga: webkit kind of has this.
02:51:46 <gcapiel> � but not exposed
02:52:06 <gcapiel> � not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page
not exposed to JS, so you can't go to a page
02:52:09 <gcapiel> � internal trick
02:52:31 <gcapiel> ivan: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff. let's collect info what's done today and what's painful.
Ivan Herman: we need the same thing we need for the metadata stuff. let's collect info what's done today and what's painful.
02:52:42 <gcapiel> � so we can understand the level of abstraction needed.
so we can understand the level of abstraction needed.
02:52:58 <gcapiel> mgylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need.
Markus Gylling: we need use cases from user point of view and what pubs need.
02:53:02 <gcapiel> to trigger actions
02:53:10 <gcapiel> � and various things actors need to do
and various things actors need to do
02:53:47 <gcapiel> ivan: readium should give us info where problems where
Ivan Herman: readium should give us info where problems where
02:53:58 <tzviya> q
02:54:01 <tzviya> +
02:54:04 <tzviya> q+
Tzviya Siegman: q+
02:54:32 <ivan> ack tzviya
Ivan Herman: ack tzviya
02:54:38 <gcapiel> tzviya: term pagination means many things and it's confusing
Tzviya Siegman: term pagination means many things and it's confusing
02:54:56 <gcapiel> � we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint
we use it to mean parity with print book and also talking about it from a visual standpoint
02:55:09 <gcapiel> � for example dealing with widows, etc.
for example dealing with widows, etc.
02:55:16 <gcapiel> � brady_duga is talking about event triggers
brady_duga is talking about event triggers
02:55:34 <JeanK> +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy.
Jean Kaplansky: +1 to Tzviya. We need a taxonomy.
02:55:55 <gcapiel> � let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers
let's not forget that the same issue doesn't happen in just browsers
02:56:18 <gcapiel> ivan: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc.
Ivan Herman: so operationally, let's say this group produces a doc and we give you doc.
02:56:37 <gcapiel> darobin: depends on what's on the doc. it should not be about styling.
Robin Berjon: depends on what's on the doc. it should not be about styling.
02:56:45 <gcapiel> ivan: we have a separate doc on styling issues
Ivan Herman: we have a separate doc on styling issues
02:57:09 <gcapiel> darobin: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group
Robin Berjon: if it were reqs for html, js and dom, then it could happen in html working group
02:57:23 <gcapiel> � not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own
not sure it can be pulled of by darobin on his own
02:57:40 <gcapiel> � html5 official req still needs to be shipped
html5 official req still needs to be shipped
02:57:53 <gcapiel> � area i'm in interested in
02:58:03 <gcapiel> � and others too
02:58:22 <gcapiel> ivan: we knew this is the way this should happen
Ivan Herman: we knew this is the way this should happen
02:58:45 <gcapiel> darobin: we do see this needed in browsers too
Robin Berjon: we do see this needed in browsers too
02:58:56 <gcapiel> brady_duga: we have reading systems in browsers too
Brady Duga: we have reading systems in browsers too
02:59:03 <gcapiel> ivan: do we do this with dom4?
Ivan Herman: do we do this with dom4?
02:59:18 <gcapiel> darobin: yes. dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible
Robin Berjon: yes. dom4 is about fundamental trees and is extensible
02:59:55 <gcapiel> ivan: let's take 15
Ivan Herman: let's take 15
03:00:30 <Zakim> -fjh
03:00:31 <Zakim> -tzviya
03:00:33 <Zakim> -JeanKaplansky
03:10:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
Frederick Hirsch: /me will probably drop of in 30 minutes or so
03:24:49 <fjh> zakim, who is here?
Frederick Hirsch: zakim, who is here?
03:24:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see Songshan, fjh
Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see Songshan, fjh
03:24:50 <Zakim> On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_,
Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see walkley, duga, kaki_, cwdoh, koji, bobby, kaki, trackbot, frank, marilyn, taocai, kawabata2, Vlad, tmichel, gcapiel, liam, mgylling_, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, dauwhe_,
03:24:50 <Zakim> ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss
Zakim IRC Bot: ... fjh, benjaminsko, manu, _nikos_office, astearns, plinss
03:25:20 <tmichel> scribe: tmichel
(Scribe set to Thierry Michel)
03:25:26 <tmichel> topic:security
03:25:44 <tmichel> digital publishing security issues
Sharad presents his slides about Digital publishing security
First slide : Digital publishing security issues
03:26:46 <tmichel> digitral books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, to modify
Digital books benefits (low costs, portability, richer content, easy to distribute, ease of use, ease to modify
03:27:00 <tmichel> but several challenges and issues ...
but several challenges and issues ...
03:27:14 <tmichel> distribution content ...
03:27:44 <tmichel> publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ...
publisher create content and provide content to 3rd party stores ...
03:28:09 <tmichel> Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place
Users buy content from 3rd party Stores or Market place
03:28:41 <tmichel> ... Users can purchase content from publishers site ...
... Users can purchase content from publishers site ...
03:29:04 <tmichel> There are security at each of these level.
There are security at each of these level.
03:30:15 <tmichel> ant each level from moved publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase
and each level like when moved from publisher to store / 3rd party stores content purchase
03:30:52 <tmichel> New slides: publishers related security issues
Next slide: Publishers related security issues
03:30:54 <fjh> is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing?
Frederick Hirsch: is there a need to distinguish attack of individual taking content for personal use versus taking content to publish in volume, cannot the first be handled by pricing?
03:31:09 <tmichel> ... during content development
... during content development
03:32:16 <tmichel> right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness)
right management (multiple right management, each with strenghts and weakness)
03:32:25 <tmichel> transmission/distribution
03:32:47 <tmichel> making sure the digital content is securely transmitted.
making sure the digital content is securely transmitted.
03:32:58 <tmichel> Next slide Client side issues
Next slide :Client side issues
03:33:40 <tmichel> encryption on Device dpub books are always encrypted on users devices
encryption on Device dpub books are always encrypted on users devices
03:34:02 <tmichel> securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device
securing the Licence/ Encryption Key on device
03:34:54 <tmichel> Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) ....
Access control (enforcing publisher policy like cut and paste, disable printing) ....
03:35:16 <tmichel> or limitrd number of devices content can be opened on.
or limited number of devices content can be opened on.
03:35:52 <tmichel> Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technos
Interoperability issues (how to play content from different publishers using security technologies)
03:36:42 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+
03:37:31 <mgylling_> ack fjh
Markus Gylling: ack fjh
03:38:16 <tmichel> frederic: republishing issues ?
Frederick Hirsch: republishing issues ?
03:38:35 <tmichel> Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation
Sharad should present this at the end of his presentation
03:38:54 <fjh> my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail
Frederick Hirsch: my question is whether we can make sure we frame the problem correctly, since otherwise there is much detail
03:38:55 <tmichel> NExt slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution
Next slide: Un authorised Copy and Distribution
03:39:07 <fjh> is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual?
Frederick Hirsch: is it possible to focus on large redistribution rather than individual?
03:39:21 <fjh> otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc?
Frederick Hirsch: otherwise concern about usability, convenience, accessibility etc?
03:39:28 <fjh> really just a question
Frederick Hirsch: really just a question
03:39:56 <tmichel> Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line)
Offline Consumption (paid ebook for reading off line)
03:40:21 <tmichel> and copy and un-authorised distribution
and copy and un-authorised distribution
03:41:05 <tmichel> prevent un-authorised copies
03:41:38 <tmichel> Next slide: un-authorised copy and distribution
Next slide: Browser support for digital books
03:47:31 <tmichel> s/un-authorised copy and distribution/browser support for digital books/
03:48:12 <fjh> what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others
Frederick Hirsch: what I think I'm hearing is that DRM requirement depends on target market segment, and that text books may be different than others
03:48:41 <tmichel> digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device
digital content can be consumed from publisher's website via browsers without downloading onto a local device
03:48:54 <tmichel> which triggers issues.
03:49:04 <tmichel> next slide Next steps
03:49:49 <tmichel> provide input, develop detailed Use cases
provide input, develop detailed Use cases
03:50:00 <tmichel> privicy issues.
03:50:45 <tmichel> Mgylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ?
Markus Gylling: what are the new things you want to provide that are not existing in DRM ?
03:51:34 <ivan> q+
Ivan Herman: q+
03:51:38 <fjh> I suspect users don't want DRM at all
Frederick Hirsch: I suspect users don't want DRM at all
03:51:42 <mgylling_> ack Ivan
Markus Gylling: ack Ivan
03:51:48 <tmichel> proiders and publisher have each their own DRM system
providers and publishers have each their own DRM system
03:52:05 <tmichel> s/proider/providers/
03:52:47 <tmichel> Ivan: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM
Ivan Herman: industry does not have an agreement. So there is a huge variety of systems for DRM
03:53:00 <fjh> watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user
Frederick Hirsch: watermarking offers a mitigation of bulk copying but does not disturb legitimate user
03:53:46 <tmichel> Sharad: So many solutions that are not all working
Sharad Garg: So many solutions that are not all working
03:54:00 <tmichel> therfore should list use Cases ...
therfore should list use Cases ...
03:54:28 <tmichel> Ivan: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ...
Ivan Herman: there are major technologies to encrypt and signed ...
03:54:43 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+
03:54:55 <tmichel> ... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ...
... on the DRM side I have difficulties to deal with this ...
03:55:15 <tmichel> Sharad: it is not only DRM but also security issues
Sharad Garg: it is not only DRM but also security issues
03:55:27 <ivan> ack fjh
Ivan Herman: ack fjh
03:56:35 <tmichel> sharad: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements.
Sharad Garg: not trying to give solutions ... but trying to collect UC and requirements.
03:56:52 <tmichel> Then, see to who we should input these requirements.
Then, see to who we should input these requirements.
03:57:11 <tmichel> And maybe technology already exist.
And maybe technology already exist.
03:58:11 <fjh> q+
Frederick Hirsch: q+
03:58:38 <tmichel> ivan: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM
Ivan Herman: the UC metadata we discussed this morning for example are easy to have consensus within the group. It may be more difficult to get such consensus about the validy of these UCs for security and DRM
03:59:19 <tmichel> mgylling: this iw exactly what happened in idph when we started collecting these kind of UCs.
Markus Gylling: this iw exactly what happened in idpf when we started collecting these kind of UCs.
03:59:39 <tmichel> We couldn't achive anything in this field.
We couldn't achive anything in this field.
03:59:40 <mgylling_> s/idph/idpf/
03:59:42 <ivan> ack fjh
Ivan Herman: ack fjh
04:00:23 <tmichel> Sharad: happy to do some more work if needed.
Sharad Garg: happy to do some more work if needed.
04:01:17 <tmichel> ivan: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub.
Ivan Herman: move issues to look at like security and privacy issues. Do they apply to epub.
04:01:19 <fjh> DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed
Frederick Hirsch: DRM is a different issue than security issues, agreed
04:02:03 <fjh> We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email
Frederick Hirsch: We definitely should understand such broader security issues, as mentioned in my email
04:02:16 <tmichel> privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books.
privacy issues about ereaders collecting my behavior abouthow I am reading my books.
04:02:23 <fjh> +1
Frederick Hirsch: +1
04:02:47 <tmichel> ... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy
... might be really relevant to look into security and privacy
04:03:47 <tmichel> sharad: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues.
Sharad Garg: will work with frederic to work on UC and requirements on security and privacy issues.
04:04:24 <tmichel> Mgylling: Any one to repport on EME ?
Markus Gylling: Any one to repport on EME ?
04:04:40 <tmichel> ivan: current spycho drama ;-)
Ivan Herman: current psycho drama ;-)
04:05:16 <tmichel> ivan: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch.
Ivan Herman: for book readers I guess EME would not be the right approch.
04:05:40 <tmichel> ... need to have a secure envirement within the browser.
... need to have a secure envirement within the browser.
04:05:55 <tmichel> mgylling: anymore issues ?
Markus Gylling: anymore issues ?
04:06:14 <tmichel> ...maybe we should break for lunch ...
...maybe we should break for lunch ...
04:06:32 <Zakim> -fjh
04:07:26 <tmichel> mgylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues
Markus Gylling: After lunch we will discuss security issues
05:35:41 <duga> Guest: Jason White
05:35:51 <ivan> Guest: Jason White
05:36:43 <duga> Jason: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y
Jason White: intro - lots of experience on standard, a11y
05:37:06 <duga> ... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub
... joining us to discuss a11y in digipub
05:37:21 <duga> ... will help us pilot through other WGs
... will help us pilot through other WGs
05:37:58 <duga> mgylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority
Markus Gylling: This IG is looking at everything, a11y is high priority
05:38:43 <duga> ... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech
... in ebook space still trying to get to a point where we can maximize web a11y tech
05:39:23 <duga> ... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing
... have a history where the entire web access stack is missing
05:39:31 <duga> ... want to enable it everywhere
... want to enable it everywhere
05:39:59 <duga> ... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books
... Are there differences in priority for the web vs books
05:40:18 <duga> ... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying
... for instance, web browsing vs a university student studying
05:40:34 <duga> ... need to point out differences
... need to point out differences
05:41:02 <duga> ... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis
... eg need to have efficient, accurate speech synthesis
05:41:24 <duga> ... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon
... 2 themes - 1. how do we content and impl on aria bandwagon
05:41:37 <duga> ... 2 - are there any gaps?
05:42:18 <duga> gcapiel: will run through unordered laundry list
Gerardo Capiel: will run through unordered laundry list
05:42:25 <duga> ... then lets prioritize
05:42:52 <duga> ... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group?
... How do we broaden the range of perspectives in the group?
05:43:32 <duga> ... need to cover all areas of assistive tech
... need to cover all areas of assistive tech
05:43:41 <duga> ... Would like input on who we should pull in
... Would like input on who we should pull in
05:43:58 <duga> ... Problem areas - SVG
05:44:21 <duga> ... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted
... lots of features for assistive tech, not widely adopted
05:44:36 <duga> ... May not support everything we need
... May not support everything we need
05:45:01 <duga> ... descr attribute can't have rich text
... descr attribute can't have rich text
05:45:29 <duga> ivan: What about html via foreign object?
Ivan Herman: What about html via foreign object?
05:45:38 <duga> gcapiel: not supported by screen readers
Gerardo Capiel: not supported by screen readers
05:45:45 <duga> ... need to drill down on use cases
... need to drill down on use cases
05:46:22 <duga> ... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at
... image descriptions, epub 2 limited to alt, epub 3 has no more support, 3.0.1 has Aria described-at
05:46:39 <duga> ... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document
... no actual guidance/ best practices, or semantics of the document
05:46:57 <duga> ... might want short description, long desc, etc
... might want short description, long desc, etc
05:47:23 <duga> ... These are new areas we need to define some semantics
... These are new areas we need to define some semantics
05:47:56 <duga> ivan: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg
Ivan Herman: There are a11y problems with SVG - is this epub issue, or general svg
05:48:09 <duga> gcapiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu
Gerardo Capiel: everywhere, but more pronounced in edu
05:48:39 <duga> ... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu
... as it moves online, may be on the same footing. Older use cases may not account for modern uses in edu
05:49:07 <duga> ... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released
... for edu, in epub, since it is packaged it is harder to update once released
05:49:36 <duga> ... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features
... Need remediation tools to fix epub that is missing a11y features
05:49:52 <duga> ... may want to use annotations to implement that
... may want to use annotations to implement that
05:50:08 <duga> ... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub
... MathML fallbacks is particularly a problem in epub
05:50:42 <duga> ... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML)
... hybrid epub 2/3 files use nav features but don't make content epub 3 (so, no MathML)
05:51:10 <duga> ... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images)
... need to explore mathml fallbacks (alt text, images)
05:51:16 <duga> ... none really good enough
05:51:53 <duga> ... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural
... even with mathml, works well for visual representation, but not great for aural
05:52:35 <duga> ... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml
... some people want nemeth (??) braille conversion from mathml
05:52:53 <duga> mgylling: nemeth braille may be US centric
Markus Gylling: nemeth braille may be US centric
05:53:41 <duga> jason: mathematics codes not standard
Jason White: mathematics codes not standard
05:54:25 <duga> ... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation
... mathml to braille conversion hard, need to convert to local braille math representation
05:54:55 <duga> gcapiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable
Gerardo Capiel: will a publisher really account for every math code? Need to make sure easilly adaptable
05:55:12 <duga> guest: Andrew Kirkpatrick
05:55:37 <duga> gcapiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True?
Gerardo Capiel: CSS braille not gone very far. True?
05:55:49 <ivan> s/Kirkpatrick/Kirkpatrick, Adobe/
05:55:59 <duga> Jason: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far
Jason White: Started end of the 90s, didn't go very far
05:56:44 <duga> ... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that
... issues around grid for east Asian typ0graphy, lots of questions on if possible to make a braille for that
05:57:19 <duga> ivan: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again
Ivan Herman: East asian typography just picked up in general, so maybe it can be looked at again
05:57:41 <duga> mgylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille)
Markus Gylling: Following the CSS group, has not seen this in 12 years (css braille)
05:58:11 <duga> gcapiel: looking at runtime braille conversion
Gerardo Capiel: looking at runtime braille conversion
05:58:24 <duga> andrew: useful when we have haptic displays?
Andrew Kirkpatrick: useful when we have haptic displays?
05:58:45 <duga> jason: maybe now is the time
Jason White: maybe now is the time
05:59:33 <duga> mgylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition
Markus Gylling: good time to bring it up, as epub is looking at alternate renditions. Might make sense to look at braille as alternate rendition
05:59:56 <duga> ... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good
... braille is so hard, might be hard to do in automated fashion, so hand crafted is good
06:00:06 <duga> andrew: and there are legal reasons in the US
Andrew Kirkpatrick: and there are legal reasons in the US
06:00:19 <duga> jason: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate
Jason White: And stuff like tables is really hard to automate
06:00:25 <duga> ... back to svg
06:00:39 <duga> ... aria support getting in to svg
... aria support getting in to svg
06:00:53 <duga> ... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document
... area states and roles can be placed in an svg document
06:01:13 <duga> ... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases
... no aria changes for svg, but could be worked on if there are specific use cases
06:01:50 <duga> ... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui
... could associate aria role with part of svg document, then make accessible ui
06:02:02 <duga> ... don't know if anyone is working on it
... don't know if anyone is working on it
06:02:25 <duga> mgylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics)
Markus Gylling: new member of the group looking at it for STEM (may include inforgraphics)
06:02:43 <duga> ... this group could propose extensions to aria
... this group could propose extensions to aria
06:03:02 <duga> ... mark hakkenen is the new member
... mark Hakkinen is the new member
06:03:27 <duga> jason: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions
Jason White: knows mark and knows he is interested in aria extensions
06:03:41 <duga> gcapiel: css speech - don't know what we need
Gerardo Capiel: css speech - don't know what we need
06:03:48 <duga> ... implementation lacking
06:03:56 <duga> jason: where are we on the spec?
Jason White: where are we on the spec?
06:04:08 <duga> ... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1
... was in 2, going to drop in 2.0.1
06:04:26 <duga> mgylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck
Markus Gylling: was revived in epub by daniele weck
06:04:40 <ivan> s/hakkenen/Hakkinen/
06:04:49 <duga> ... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere
... it is at least a WD in CSS, but has gone nowhere
06:04:57 <duga> ... is marked as at-risk by css wg
... is marked as at-risk by css wg
06:05:02 <duga> ivan: why?
Ivan Herman: why?
06:05:08 <duga> mgylling: no implementations?
Markus Gylling: no implementations?
06:05:48 <duga> jason: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css
Jason White: protocols and formats wg interested in people reviewing and getting engaged in what is happening in css
06:05:57 <duga> ... could be a convergence of interest
... could be a convergence of interest
06:06:09 <duga> ... pay attention to and contribute to css
... pay attention to and contribute to css
06:06:26 <duga> andrew: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow
Andrew Kirkpatrick: they are trying to follow css, but it is huge and hard to follow
06:06:54 <duga> gcapiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech
Gerardo Capiel: TV says this group should file a bug against chrome, since it is lacking css speech
06:07:19 <duga> mgylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries
Markus Gylling: there is also the issue of pronunciation dictionaries
06:07:36 <duga> ... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP
... there are specs on it, but they are not part of OWP
06:07:46 <duga> ... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations
... epub 3 references them, but there are no implementations
06:08:17 <duga> ivan: haven't heard any epub specific issues
Ivan Herman: haven't heard any epub specific issues
06:08:28 <duga> ... all OWP issues that we happen to share
... all OWP issues that we happen to share
06:08:45 <duga> ... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems
... this group should concentrate on whether there are really epub specific problems
06:09:14 <duga> .. we can't comment on css in general
.. we can't comment on css in general
06:09:31 <duga> mgylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub
Markus Gylling: as gcapiel points out, some of these are more critical to dpub
06:09:46 <duga> ... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things
... the evolution of the epub ecosystem depends on these things
06:10:32 <duga> duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general
Brady Duga: similar to hanging punctuation - more important for us than OWP in general
06:10:44 <duga> ivan: are there features in the specs that are really missing?
Ivan Herman: are there features in the specs that are really missing?
06:11:00 <duga> ... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with
... lacking implementations are not something we can deal with
06:11:08 <duga> gcapiel: well, there is braille
Gerardo Capiel: well, there is braille
06:11:18 <duga> ivan: yes, css braille is one we should look at
Ivan Herman: yes, css braille is one we should look at
06:11:54 <duga> jason: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention
Jason White: a range of a11y issues haven't gotten enough attention
06:12:27 <duga> ... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues
... need to get people involved in standardization of these issues
06:12:53 <duga> ivan: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc)
Ivan Herman: if I take an ebook reader, there is a lot there not in a webpage (toc, etc)
06:13:20 <duga> ... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features?
... are any of these a11y features like those ebook specific features?
06:13:31 <duga> ... are any of these things ones only we care about?
... are any of these things ones only we care about?
06:13:42 <duga> gcapiel: biggest one is annotations piece
Gerardo Capiel: biggest one is annotations piece
06:14:01 <duga> gcapiel: braille, annotations, ...
Gerardo Capiel: braille, annotations, ...
06:14:53 <duga> gcapiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations
Gerardo Capiel: So spec for synchronized reading, but there are implementations
06:15:12 <duga> andrew: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail
Andrew Kirkpatrick: word or line height seems like UA implementation detail
06:15:49 <duga> ivan: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes
Ivan Herman: elevator pitch is look at publishing industry needs, look at w3c tech, see if there are any holes
06:16:15 <duga> ... yeah, it a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient
... yeah, it a ua guideline issue, but that means the guidelines are not sufficient
06:16:29 <duga> ... these are the things we should try to collect
... these are the things we should try to collect
06:16:40 <duga> gcapiel: in that vein, web speech is another one
Gerardo Capiel: in that vein, web speech is another one
06:16:53 <duga> ... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused
... not going to cover the other ones to keep it focused
06:17:10 <duga> ... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech
... use cases focus - braille, annotation, maybe web speech
06:17:29 <duga> mgylling: infographics and assessments are lacking
Markus Gylling: infographics and assessments are lacking
06:18:07 <duga> ivan: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing
Ivan Herman: In an ideal world we should look at everything and see what is missing
06:18:17 <duga> ... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them?
... we have 2 or 3 items - are these all of them?
06:18:25 <duga> gcapiel: probably not - need new members
Gerardo Capiel: probably not - need new members
06:18:35 <duga> ... wonder what high priority items are for pubs
... wonder what high priority items are for pubs
06:18:56 <duga> andrew: uag approaching last call
Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag approaching last call
06:19:07 <duga> ... atag in the same situation
... atag in the same situation
06:19:35 <duga> ... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA
... stuff like dictionary popups, could be in content, could be in UA
06:19:45 <duga> ivan: seems like it is all UA at the moment
Ivan Herman: seems like it is all UA at the moment
06:20:09 <duga> jason: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS?
Jason White: is there such a thing as a full html implementation of epub in JS?
06:20:12 <duga> mgylling: yes
Markus Gylling: yes
06:20:37 <duga> jason: that means all the OWP tech is in place
Jason White: that means all the OWP tech is in place
06:20:47 <duga> ... though may not be accessible
... though may not be accessible
06:21:35 <duga> ivan: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser
Ivan Herman: shell around web UA, need to look at that shell not just browser
06:22:08 <duga> ivan: do ereaders use canvas?
Ivan Herman: do ereaders use canvas?
06:22:25 <duga> mgylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas
Markus Gylling: there is a japanese reader that is entirely implemented in canvas
06:22:42 <duga> ... because of crappy typography
... because of crappy typography
06:23:00 <duga> ivan: canvas is an a11y nightmare
Ivan Herman: canvas is an a11y nightmare
06:23:09 <duga> jason: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y
Jason White: yeah, canvas is nasty for a11y
06:23:27 <duga> andrew: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible
Andrew Kirkpatrick: there is work around shadow dom to make canvas accessible
06:23:46 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list?
Markus Gylling: in terms of the list of concrete perceived gaps, what is the list?
06:24:14 <duga> gcapiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA)
Gerardo Capiel: assessments for aria, infographics, braille (css), web speech (UA)
06:24:28 <duga> jason: that includes css as well, right?
Jason White: that includes css as well, right?
06:24:37 <duga> gcapiel: Huh?
Gerardo Capiel: Huh?
06:24:45 <duga> jason: you referred to css speech
Jason White: you referred to css speech
06:24:58 <duga> mgylling: need pronunciation lexicons
Markus Gylling: need pronunciation lexicons
06:25:04 <duga> ivan: mathml?
Ivan Herman: mathml?
06:25:13 <duga> gcapiel: mathml semantics, yes
Gerardo Capiel: mathml semantics, yes
06:25:24 <duga> ... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml
... bridge gap between content and presentational mathml
06:25:29 <duga> mgylling: good luck with that
Markus Gylling: good luck with that
06:25:44 <duga> ... is there work on this?
06:25:50 <duga> gcapiel: I don't know
Gerardo Capiel: I don't know
06:26:06 <duga> mgylling: what is the state of this?
Markus Gylling: what is the state of this?
06:26:18 <duga> gcapiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml
Gerardo Capiel: it's pretty easy to write crappy mathml
06:26:50 <duga> ivan: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp
Ivan Herman: mathml is one of the issue that is more important to books than owp
06:27:01 <duga> gcapiel: and there is the fallbacks issue
Gerardo Capiel: and there is the fallbacks issue
06:28:04 <duga> mgylling: do we care how we generate good mathml?
Markus Gylling: do we care how we generate good mathml?
06:28:31 <duga> andrew: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS
Andrew Kirkpatrick: need a tool to generate the good mathml and send it to TTS
06:28:42 <duga> ... design science has some success
... design science has some success
06:28:54 <duga> gcapiel: but it has limited scope (IE only)
Gerardo Capiel: but it has limited scope (IE only)
06:29:30 <duga> jason: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start?
Jason White: suppose there was a techniques document for constructing content mathml. Is that a good start?
06:29:45 <duga> ... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway?
... or do we need to change mathml to get halfway?
06:30:15 <duga> andrew: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap
Andrew Kirkpatrick: might accept it as an advisory technique, but there us still a big gap
06:30:54 <duga> jason: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies
Jason White: disagrees. wcag conformance requires relying on certain technologies
06:32:11 <duga> <discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand>
<discussion descends into wcag details the scribe does not understand>
06:33:39 <duga> jason: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes.
Jason White: huge challenge to get eberything working across various APIs and OSes.
06:35:06 <duga> ... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs
... either need to enable web tech to act as a11y tools, or we need to get everyone to implement all these specs
06:36:00 <duga> mgylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look?
Markus Gylling: in terms of the short list, how does it look?
06:36:10 <duga> gcapiel: will need help on assessments
Gerardo Capiel: will need help on assessments
06:36:19 <duga> mgylling: mark hakkinen to help with that
Markus Gylling: mark hakkinen to help with that
06:36:38 <duga> gcapiel: can look at infographics and web speech
Gerardo Capiel: can look at infographics and web speech
06:36:52 <duga> ... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help
... has some mathml knowledge, but may need more help
06:37:13 <duga> ... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing
... need to go through guidelines and see what is missing
06:37:37 <duga> mgylling: when is ?? up as a draft?
Markus Gylling: when is UAAG up as a draft?
06:37:48 <duga> andrew: atag is soon or already happened.
Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag is soon or already happened.
06:38:00 <duga> ... before eoy, both of them
06:38:05 <duga> mgylling: LC?
Markus Gylling: LC?
06:38:13 <duga> andrew: one is CR, maybe
Andrew Kirkpatrick: one is CR, maybe
06:38:14 <ivan> s/??/UAAG/
06:38:21 <duga> mgylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt
Markus Gylling: doesn't matter, we can adapt
06:38:41 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes
06:38:41 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
06:38:45 <duga> gcapiel: web API for braille support is a new one
Gerardo Capiel: web API for braille support is a new one
06:39:29 <duga> andrew: atag was CR on nov 7th
Andrew Kirkpatrick: atag was CR on nov 7th
06:39:42 <duga> jason: mathml is a significant issue
Jason White: mathml is a significant issue
06:39:56 <duga> ... makes content inaccessible without it
... makes content inaccessible without it
06:40:09 <duga> ivan: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues
Ivan Herman: it is one of the most frequently mentioned issues
06:40:27 <duga> gcapiel: mathml barely comes up in a11y guidelines
Gerardo Capiel: mathml barely comes up in UAAG guidelines
06:40:41 <duga> andrew: uag was LC nov 7
Andrew Kirkpatrick: UAAG was LC nov 7
06:40:51 <mgylling> s/a11y/UAAG/
06:41:05 <ivan> s/uag/UAAG/
06:41:31 <duga> jason: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help?
Jason White: what can the guidelines say at this point that will help?
06:41:38 <duga> ... need new tech, not guidelines
... need new tech, not guidelines
06:42:01 <duga> ... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech
... whatever the solutions (OS, etc), we need tech
06:42:14 <duga> andrew: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly
Andrew Kirkpatrick: uag doesn't mention mathml explicitly
06:43:29 <duga> jason: need the minutes
Jason White: need the minutes
06:43:39 <duga> action: ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes
ACTION: Ivan to get jason the URI for the minutes
06:43:40 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19].
Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-11 - Get jason the uri for the minutes [on Ivan Herman - due 2013-11-19].
06:45:28 <mgylling> scribe: Sharad
06:45:48 <mgylling> topic: Testing (with Tobie Langel)
06:47:09 <ivan> Guest: Tobie (tobie) Langel, W3C
06:47:11 <tobie> https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/
Tobie Langel: https://www.w3.org/2013/Talks/1112-testtwf/
06:48:43 <Sharad> tobie: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward
Tobie Langel: w3c is so far testing spec is implementable, less you test, easy to move spec forward
06:49:57 <Sharad> ... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5
... TV industry is getting involved with HTML5, mobil & publishing industry is also moving towards HTML5
06:51:16 <Sharad> ... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing
... lots of new spec, interactions with new technology thus lots of issues. new effort started to improve testing
06:52:13 <Sharad> ... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed
... scope is large, # of test is missing, approx 25 - 30 Man years of engineering needed
06:53:17 <Sharad> ... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions
... how do I test, how to run them, how to gather results. happy to answerrelated questions
06:54:34 <Sharad> mgylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited
Markus Gylling: like to know architecture, couple of open source systems available. testing in epub is strictly limited
06:56:48 <Sharad> tobie: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry
Tobie Langel: 30 - 40 specs for mobile, TV inudstry. 30 o them may be required for publishign industry
06:58:02 <Sharad> ... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs
... it will be useful for everyone to have implement these specs
06:59:24 <Sharad> ... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices
... missing is solid base that developers can use acrossdevices
07:01:20 <Sharad> ... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests
... we have we have a # of different kinds of tests, most common is JAVA tests
07:02:16 <Sharad> ... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests
... 2bd kind if test are reference test, these ar layout tests
07:05:24 <duga> IDL
Brady Duga: IDL
07:06:18 <Sharad> ... tobie: special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing
... tobie: special kind of tests: IDL test. automatically generate tests, also called signature testing
07:06:57 <Sharad> .. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput
.. web driver tests; completely mimic a user, navigate to a page, take screen, itake nput
07:07:30 <Sharad> get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests
get rid of manual test, replace them by web driver tests
07:09:03 <Sharad> ... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport;
... web drivers don't do testing outside of web viewport;
07:15:07 <Sharad> ivan: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core?
Ivan Herman: is the implementation part of webkit or part of web core?
07:20:11 <Sharad> tobie: i am not rigth person to ask technical details
Tobie Langel: i am not rigth person to ask technical details
07:22:52 <Sharad> ivan: publisher will want produce typography nicety
Ivan Herman: publisher will want produce typography nicety
07:23:22 <Sharad> duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line
Brady Duga: never have hanging puctuation; comma appearing outside of line
07:25:29 <Sharad> ivan: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS
Ivan Herman: 2 apge side by side, they would not be equalize, today does not exist in CSS
07:29:06 <Sharad> ivan: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help
Ivan Herman: typography tests need to be checked by human. running test harness automatically wil lbe major help
07:30:58 <Sharad> tobie: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits
Tobie Langel: cost of test automation will be sometimes more than benefits
07:32:08 <Sharad> mgylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system
Markus Gylling: talk to Readium foundation, developing opensource reading system
07:33:07 <Sharad> .. do we good online intro to webdriver?
.. do we good online intro to webdriver?
07:33:14 <Sharad> tobie: no
Tobie Langel: no
07:33:46 <Sharad> ... nothing about driver structure
... nothing about driver structure
07:34:02 <Sharad> ivan: can look at web code to understand?
Ivan Herman: can look at web code to understand?
07:35:36 <Sharad> no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue
no funds to suport this effort, this is going to be another issue
07:37:28 <Sharad> ivan: how is it related to validation project?
Ivan Herman: how is it related to validation project?
07:37:42 <Sharad> tobie: completely different scope
Tobie Langel: completely different scope
07:42:27 <Sharad> tobie: looking for options to scale
Tobie Langel: looking for options to scale
07:44:39 <Sharad> ivan: start the process here and then show readium
Ivan Herman: start the process here and then show readium
07:46:07 <ivan> rrsagent, draft minutes
Ivan Herman: rrsagent, draft minutes
07:46:07 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2013/11/12-dpub-minutes.html ivan
08:15:13 <dauwhe_> Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies
Dave Cramer: Bert and I have proposed a breakout session for tomorrow about paged media etc.: http://www.w3.org/wiki/TPAC2013/SessionIdeas#Towards_paginated_layouts_for_.28e-.29books_using_Web_technologies
08:31:49 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
08:37:17 <dauwhe_> Topic: backgrounds and borders
08:37:39 <dauwhe_> fantasai: issue that backgrounds and borders defines in what order short orders are extended
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