W3C

Accessible E-Learning Online Symposium 16 Dec 2013
Chat Log

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<Connor_OKeefe> Just wanted to add their our findings were very similar to those of the Polytechnic Institute of Leiria

<Connor_OKeefe> 'what appealed mmost to attendees was the variety of formats for the same content i.e. the multi-format slant'

<Justin_Brown> how all - we will use session 3 for questions from participants - sp write those questions down :)

<Justin_Brown> let me try that again folks - we will use the last session for questions from participants - so jot down your questions as they occur to you and we will get through a many as we can

<Connor_OKeefe> We firmly believe in terms of universal standard for eLearning there needs to be allowance made for highly interactive content which benefits learners from a pedagogical perspective but here it is not possible to make a conforming version that would provide the equivalent experience. In other words providing a palin text based version would need to suffice even though it could not provide the ame learning experience

<Connor_OKeefe> We have some good examples of this such as with realtime interactive video

<bfisseler> @Justin_Brown: So you collect all questions during the current live session?

<Justin_Brown> bfissler - I will try and keep track of who has questions and call them in order come question time - shall I put you down for a question?

<bfisseler> Justin, I have three questions.

<bfisseler> @Ruchi: What was your motivation to develop another accessible e-learning model? There are some, e.g. the holistic model of Kelly et al, or Jane Seale’s model.

<bfisseler> @AlbertoArbiol: Did you take a look at the IMS GLC standards? Or why are the existing standards not enough? Do you think it would be helpful to provide some guidelines that are very specific to the detail? What are your criterions to determine if a standard is helpful or not?

<bfisseler> @All: I would like to here more about successful accessible e-learning initiatives, like the ATI at the California State University. Does anyone know about other initiatives in higher education, that have successfully implemented accessible e-learning in an university or college setting?

<Ruchi_Permvattana> Hi, Kelly and Phipps’s holistic model (2006) and Seale’s contextualised model (2006) are designed for people with disabilities in general and not specifically for those with vision impairment.

<DavidSloan> @bfiessler - and to extend your question, how is "successfully implemented" defined? Is it, for example, number of instructors who have had training, change in attitude to accessibility of courseware procurement teams, good performance in a technical accessibility evaluation of e-learning resources, performance of students with disabilities in assessments? So many factors, but the last one seems most important, ultimately.

<NDAIreland> Question: Given that many types of eLearning assessment questions are difficult for some people with disabilities (sorting questions, drag/drop questions), what kinds of questions can be used to engage users while still being accessible for all users?

<bfisseler> @DavidSloan: That's a good question. I'd say it could be measured by the number of people who actually care about accessibility. And by the number of complains of students with disabilities? The problem with the ATI at the CSU is that they provide no details about any kind of evaluation. So I don't know if they really evaluated their initiative.

<Alberto_Arbiol> @bfisseler We have been studying IMS Guidelines for Developing Accessible Learning Applications but they are very generic and they are not focused on mobile devices. We think it would be necessary to provide a guideline which specifies how a chat could be accessible for m-learning. This is what we are trying to do now. We are selecting all the guidelines that could be related to chats in m-learning,

<Alberto_Arbiol> , after that we will overlap all these guidelines, laws or standards to create a guideline to help developers creating accessible chats for m-learning.

<bfisseler> @Ruchi_Permvattana: I understand what you mean. But to what extend is your VIVID model specific to students with VI?

<bfisseler> @Alberto_Arbiol: Thanks!

<Alberto_Arbiol> You're welcome :)

<EA> We should also say there will be an exit survey and the MOOC is still in its final week. The next MOOC on this subject will go ahead in February

<Ruchi_Permvattana> @bfisseler The VIVID takes into account the specific needs of VI learners. It also includes a social element which VI learners identified as being extremely important to the success of their learning

<bfisseler> @Ruchi: Thank you!

<Ruchi_Permvattana> Thank you bfisseler

<DavidSloan> @bfisseler - a standardised framework for evaluating effectiveness of an institutional elearning accessibility initiative sounds like it could be very useful.

<Connor_OKeefe> Sadie NAthan and I will need to leave at the break, if anyone wants to contact us directly my email is connor.o'keefe@deewr.gov.au

<Nathan_Bellato> @ connor_Okeefe or me, Nathan at Nathan.Bellato@deewr.gov.au

<Connor_OKeefe> We would really love to know if the W3C RDWG have a position on reducing interactivity to achieve better conformance or else to maintain high interactivy and providing a conforming alternative?

<DavidSloan> @NDAIreland - I'd also like to know more about this concept of "engagement" and "excitement" in the way a learner takes part in a learning activity, and the extent of the problem of a conflict with accessibility. I'm curious about the quality of evidence to support an assertion that a more dynamic input method like drag-and-drop is more engaging than, say, a set of radio button lists; and the resulting implications on effectiveness of learning?

<DavidSloan> @Connor_OKeefe - I think my question relates to yours! i.e. how real is the tension between "interactivity" and accessibility?

<Connor_OKeefe> Our experience is that it is fundemtnal to eLEarning pedagogy

<bfisseler> I'd like to ask the experts about their adoption of concepts like Universal Design for Learning, UD of Instruction, or UD of Education? Accessible e-learning should not rely on technology alone!

<Connor_OKeefe> Would be great to hear your views David, feel free to flick me an email and anyone else, apologies for not staying til the end only I have work in a few hours lol

<Ruchi_Permvattana> Thanks Connor and Nathan

<DavidSloan> @Connor_OKeefe - so I'm curious about how do you define interactivity? Not suggesting this is your view, but sometimes I sense that it's defined as "anything that's not accessible" :)

<DavidSloan> @Connor_OKeefe - I'll definitely follow up by email - this is a very interesting aspect of inclusive e-learning experience design

<Connor_OKeefe> not at all, interactivity covers a full range of learning activities on scale, but it is usually the case that the more interactive an activity the less likely it will be possible to make it accessible

<Connor_OKeefe> and often because such activities require the user to enagge multiple senses

<Connor_OKeefe> which of course is not possible for some with disabilities

<Connor_OKeefe> an example is interactive video

<Justin_Brown> conner - so synchronous e-learning environments would be a bit of a non-starter in terms of accessible e-learning?

<NDAIreland> @DavidSloan - Yes, that's a good point. I'm not aware of any particular measure of engagement. I was thinking about the scenario where we found ourselves limited in the variety of types of assessment questions. We limited ourselves to multiple choice questions only. I wonder if there are ways to have more varied questions, but still be accessible?

<Connor_OKeefe> not necessarily, some synchronous environments can be optimised to work quite well with accessibility, but for example where the user needs to actuallly see what is happening on screen to interact with the video it becomes impossible to make such a learning solution accessible or to provide an alternate version which provides the same experience, so our view is that there should be allowance made for such situations where is can be shown th[CUT]

<Justin_Brown> @connor_Okeefe -agreed

<Connor_OKeefe> beneficial to those who can benefit from it. We can still provide a content based version for those unable t interactive with the video, but recognising it does not provide the same value/experoience

<Justin_Brown> @connor_okeefe - yes - there is always a '

<Justin_Brown> fidelity gap

<Justin_Brown> between the standard and accessible versions (or at least a perception of such)

<Connor_OKeefe> yep agreed, interestingly though some of our users with disabilities actually tell us that they only want basic text versions of content and aren't fused about having the same experience (not all) and on the other hand we have some users with no disabilities who prefer to use the acceesible alternate version... sometimes it just comes back to learning styles and preferences

<chunming> edX and coursera

<Justin_Brown> i have had the same experience with my students - 'gimme text and gimme mp3'

<taliesin> Oh I had a question for the Australian group: Australia case: Why do you think that e-learning potential is being limited in Australia?

<taliesin> And: You mention that the WCAG 2.0 is grey on e-learning. Do you think it is really grey or just difficult to understand and implement?

<bfisseler> @taliesin: We successfully used WCAG or rather the German pendant BITV 2.0 for the evaluation of e-learning systems (LMS).

<amaury_bauzac_ck> i have a question : have you ever "override" the screen readers shortcuts so that disabled users can fully use your content or should it be avoided ?

<bfisseler> I have a question for Manuela Francisco: You say that you still encounter some errors when doing manual tests with real users. Could you give some examples?

<taliesin> Personas: Pablo mentioned he thought the personas were Best for Content developer, but do you see use of persona can help bridge the gap between content developers and web developers?

<NDAIreland> It would be great if Sylvia could answer my question about types of assessment questions beyond multiple choice questions. Thanks a lot. Shane Hogan

<amaury_bauzac_ck> We are currently designing our e learning solution and we think about overriding some keys like TAB or Space keys, I'm just asking if some of you think we really should avoid this and if there is an alternative about that

<NDAIreland> Great, thanks Sylvia - I will follow up with you offline for more details on the IMS (?) standards

<shadi> http://www.imsglobal.org/

<Justin_Brown> shadi - beat me to it

<bfisseler> Just a thought: can we really say these are "non-conventional devices"? Aren't mobile devices (smartphones, phablets, tablets) going to be part of the arsenal of learning devices?

<bfisseler> @Justin_Brown: I've got a question for open question time. I'm impressed by all this interesting research. But how much more standards do we need? We have accessibility standards, we have e-learning standards, and we have accessible e-learning standards. How much more is needed and when will it be too much?

<chunming> JTC1/SC36 is focusing on standards on education. as well as IEEE LTSC. do they have any consideration on accssibility issue at this moment?

<bfisseler> Addendum: What will make up a successful standard? How can we measure this?

<taliesin> Open question: Are people mainly creating content in HTML or other formats? I find that HTML content is the easiest to make accessible.

<bfisseler> @chunming: Yeah, but aren't these rather old and not-so-active standards?

<taliesin> not-so-active? Do you mean interactive?

<bfisseler> No, not under active development.

<taliesin> I have a gap question

<NDAIreland> Thanks Shadi/Justin for the link to the IMSglobal.org

<taliesin> I find the implementation of the standards are the difficult part and choosing what level to implement.

<bfisseler> @All: I would like to here more about successful accessible e-learning initiatives, like the ATI at the California State University. Does anyone know about other initiatives in higher education, that have successfully implemented accessible e-learning in an university or college setting?

<bfisseler> I'd say a11y always comes down to the POUR concept.

<bfisseler> That's what is easy to communicate.

<taliesin> I agree the POUR concept is very useful.

<bfisseler> @Justin_Brown: What's that university?

<bfisseler> Okay.

<NDAIreland> The MOOCs on Coursera.org reach a good standard of accessibility. I just finished a MOOC on Coursera from University of Michigan. All videos were captioned in English and other languages. Exercises seemed to be accessible HTML, though I didn't test this out.

<bfisseler> @Justin_Brown: Thank you!

<Justin_Brown> No worries bfissler

<taliesin> Portland Community College is doing a lot of support work in helping faculty members make content accessible.

<bfisseler> @taliesin: Thanks!

<taliesin> http://www.pcc.edu/resources/instructional-support/access/

<taliesin> They have chosen the WCAG 2.0 AA

<bfisseler> @All: I wonder how the a11y of e-learning in higher education settings could be measured? As I commented earlier, even the CSU provides no info on any kind of evaluation.

<bfisseler> CSU is California State University.

<Gaurang> Open Question: For those who use videos for MOOC courses, have you considered using audio-description? If yes, what was your experience?

<taliesin> Good point. Also related to writing accessible guidelines :-)

<bfisseler> thank you all for a very interesting session! lots of stuff to think about!

<amaury_bauzac_ck> thank you to the staff and participants

<Alberto_Arbiol> Thank you for the opportunity of being here :)

<Justin_Brown> thanks all

<NDAIreland> @Gaurang - would audio-described really be necessary for a filmed lecture video? In general, there is no action going on to be described to a viewer with sight loss.

<silvia_mirri_> thanks all!

<taliesin> Thanks. This is the first time I participated in somethign like this.

<chunming> thank you all. Bye.

<NDAIreland> Thanks for the seminar - some useful content there.

<Ruchi_Permvattana> Thank you all

<Harper_Simon> Thanks Guys for an excellent sympoisum.

<Gaurang> @NDAIreland - thanks!

<Gaurang> I think perhaps audio-description, or perhaps, some extra audio might be required for explaining some maths related concepts, using a khan-academy type video

<Gaurang> I just wanted to know if anyone has any experience with that


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