W3C

- DRAFT -

User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

11 Nov 2013

See also: IRC log

Attendees

Present
kelly, Jan, kim, Jeanne, JimBell(HP)
Regrets
Chair
JimAllan, KellyFord
Scribe
allanj, jeanne, jeanne2, Jan1

Contents


<trackbot> Date: 11 November 2013

<kford> it set it up as our weekly meeting

<AllanJ> Meeting: UAWG F2F Shenzhen, China - 10 Nov 2013 day 1

<kford> UAAG members introducing themselves.

<AllanJ> kp: Mobile Accessibility Taskforce - reviewing mobile accessibility. joint group with UAAG and WCAG

<AllanJ> ... will be working on mobile techniques for WCAG

<AllanJ> ... all member of TF will be members of WCAG or

<AllanJ> UAAG working group

<AllanJ> js: last june UAAG published mobile examples for UAAG

<AllanJ> scribe: allanj

js: history of UAAG. 1999 to present

www.w3.org/tr/uaag10

scribe: waited for WCAG20 to be finished, then developed new UAAG focus on new technology
... Last Call on 9 Nov 2013.
... now searching for implementation, real world example of tools that implement all of the Success Criteria
... members are in the US and Canada, will be on call until Noon

<jeanne2> Mobile Examples of UAAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20130606/mobile.html

jimbell: how closely does UAAG work with HTML5?

jr: went through HTML5 WD and commented on specific

<Jan1> we commented on HTML5 especially where HTML5 asked for specific browser behaviour...

<Jan1> they took some of our comments on borad...

<Jan1> and in other cases they pushed the issue back to our WG to handle in our guidelines.

<jeanne2> scribe: jeanne

<jeanne2> JA: We also commented on Media Task Force that there needs to be a rich set of controls

<jeanne2> ... that need to be natively key board accessible

<jeanne2> ... that needs to be skins for CSS

<jeanne2> ... we don't want to have 10 million inaccessible browser controls for media

<jeanne2> ... we want to have a handful of accessible controls that can be easily modified for different appearance.

<jeanne2> ... there are lots of different toolkits with a different look and feel of how it is supposed to work. This is difficult for assistive technology

<jeanne2> ... if the browser takes care of these controls, it will make it easier for the assistive technology and the users.

<jeanne2> ... mobile has new challenges

<jeanne2> ... we want to normalize the behaviors

<Jan1> that's it

<jeanne2> ... across different browsers and mobile platforms.

introductions from all people in the room

10 folks from China, Korea, Japan, Hong Kong

js: UAAG does not replace WCAG - we share the user.

<jeanne2> JA: You can think of it as WCAG is the screen, and UAAG applies more behind the screen.

<jeanne2> ... the author can do everything right according to WCAG, but if the browser doesn't render it correctly, it won't be accessible.

<jeanne2> ... and if the author didn't write it correctly, sometimes the browser will try to fix it.

<jeanne2> ... if the browser doesn't send the correct information to the accessibility API for the platform, it won't work will together.

<jeanne2> Jim Bell: How well does it work with the VPAAC laws in the US?

<jeanne2> JA: We commented on it.

kf: CVAA - video accessibility

<scribe> scribe: allanj

CVAA - 2010 passed in the US. took effect on 8 Oct 2013 in USA.

kf: covers Chat, instant messaging, email. related experiences -- billing, education
... video.
... how does UAAG relate to CVAA?
... CVAA does not reference any standard.
... it is more about ensuring that users software is usable. it is subject to interpretation
... UAAG has set of guidelines that relate it to software features if implemented will make user experience more usable.

jbell: if you implement according to UAAG will that make a product compliant with CVAA

js: if product complies with UAAG should exceed CVAA

kf: check with corporate legal.

<Jan1> also the CVAA talks about things besides user agents...

<Jan1> e.g. re: messaging

<jeanne2> ATAG and UAAG and WCAG are rather unique in W3C. Most of W3C are specific languages, but our work is more guideline oriented. We have made it unique to browsers.

<jeanne2> ... One of our members participates in ISO, so we have tried to make our work compatible with them and also specific to user agents.

<jeanne2> ... we originally called the user interface "chrome" and then Google came out with a product named Chrome, so our work is is little more stilted.

<scribe> scribe: jeanne2

JS: Let's get to work

<Jan1> jeanne...my audio is good enough to scribe if you like

<Jan1> jeanne2...my audio is good enough to scribe if you like

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/

<Jan1> scribe: Jan1

JS: Just put in link to our implementing doc...
... It includes the specific and testable guideline doc...plus supporting info...the intent, examples and related resources
... In some cases, examples reflect current implementations...or theortetical implementations
... UAAG has a number of priniples...
... Perceivable, operable, understandable
... Then PRINCIPLE 4. Programmatic access and PRINCIPLE 5: Specifications and conventions
... So we'd like to start with principle 1...

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#principle-perceivable

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#gl-access-alternative-content

JS: Each guideline begins with summary

Question from floor: Are testable things going to be tested with W3C testing?

JS: Unfortunately not, as W3C testing can't get outside of the rendered UI to the tool.
... ATAG 2.0 has the same issue.

Questionner: How much funding needed?

JS: $50K

Questioner: Does not seem like much in grand scheme of things

JA: Points out that most testing happens in the browser...

Questioner: Thinks that since W3C is charging for testing
... should pay for itelf.

Questioner 2: How do you decide which screen reader to use since they differ

JA: It's a rathole to go down...
... If you try and code for any screen reader or assistive tech...
... So we are more concerned with if the info gets sent to the accessibility API in the right way
... You can only write to the code...you can't be concerned with every screen reader
... If we can get authors to write good code then it is up to AT to present it properly
... Any different opinions?

KP: I think you put it well

JA: Kim is involved with speech input systems

GL: Just joined...
... Just wanted to add that our guidelines are necessarily platform independent...
... So we can't say exactly how a user agent should communicate with assistive technology
... So whenever one is testing to see whether software correctly talks with assistive tech...
... So for any given platform I would recommend that the SW, in this case the user agent, it should be tested with two categories of tools...
... The first is accessibility API test tools...eg tools that test UIA or MSAA
... Then you can get an idea whether the right info is exposed
... Then you shopuld also check with a few real world assistive tech tools

<AllanJ> UIA=UI Automation (User Interface Automation)

GL: If you only test the assistive tech tools then you can't tell what part of behaviour comes from heuristics

<AllanJ> different platforms have different API testing tools

Questioner: How many different platforms do you need to test on?
... Windows, iOS, Linux?

JA: Android...

KF: Who is you?

<AllanJ> platforms: Windows, IOS, Android, Linux

JS: If you are looking at a UA that runs of diff platforms...Safari
... Apple would be responsible for testing
... During implementation gatering, we the WG will test on various platforms

Questioner: Would iOS be the platform or is it iPhone or iPad?

JS: At the moment iOS...

JA: Except Android is complicated...because some devices may not include the accessibilitty kernel
... With iOS its simpler

GL: It really comes down to the party writing the conformance claim...
... To determine which platform or variant of platform is involved.

Questioner: ...inaudible...

JS: W3C...we write specs...whether someone chooses to conform to them is their choice...
... When this is done, we will approach vendors to say you should comply but it is their choice
... THey are voluntary
... We do our best to make them as broad as possible

JA: We have no enforcement mechanism

Questioner: with Android we can write an accessible app, but it won't work on every phone. What is W3C doing to address this?
... Can only test on one or two models

<AllanJ> questioner: having problems with some apps on android being inaccessible, difficult to test all

JS: This is really our goal...if we make it easier and clear to comply...then we hope more vendors will

JA: Same with WCAG...still a matter of author education
... On iOS more clear info on writing accessible apps
... On Android I always say there are 99 wrong ways for evey 1 accessible way
... Digressesses re: cat videos... :)
... 1.1.1 Render Alternative Content: The user can choose to render any type of recognized alternative content that is present for a content element.
... The reason we say "recognized" is that there are lots of black holes that the user agent doens't know about..eg Flash plugin
... That's up to the flash player as a user agent
... THe other thing that UAAG is adamant about is that the requirements are not just about screen readers...
... Eg. ability to turn off images helps other people
... Can meet UAAG through extensions
... e.g. there are lots of tools that can turn off images
... And if you know of any pls tell us

Questioner: Take Flash...if it is self-contained...should it pay attention to your guidelines?

JS: Yes

JA: Otherwise everything is a black hole

JS: Imp example of 1.1.1

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_111

<kenny> :)

<kenny> :(

Questioner: What about these types of icons?
... In UI interface, they are a symbol?...how do you expand?

JA: When I mouse over...I get the colon and left paren...
... So that can be spoken...eg. via screen readers

JS: In this case chatzilla will exapan

<AllanJ> jr: chatzilla is rendering the icon in place of :(

JR: In this case it is chatzilla that renders the "markup" as an image

JS: Do you get any alt content on your system?
... In skype client...if I type ": )"
... It turns it into a smily image...and then it as alt text "smiley"...
... So lets put down Skype
... As a system that does some implementation with emoticons

JA: Shows a setting for expand alt text on images...

JR: which browser

JA: IE10...lets put it on the chart

JS: Would be too hard to actually test today...
... Today we want to look for implementation...not test or write tests?

Questioner: Anything in UAAG that is culturally specific? And if so has there been international input?
... Has there been an attempt to liase with the i18n people?

JS: Yes, on many points.
... Reminds me that I would like to invite Rich.

JA; When thinking about Chinese/Japanese/Korean browsers...are their settings...

JA; to show alt on screen/

I am using IE and Chrome

JA: Shows example on his browser.
... In FF and chrome...there is developer tools...
... The other thing we have to tease out...what to do when something can be done but takes 15 steps...
... eg would it count to require users to edit in about.config?
... I see headshake-no

Questioner: Definitely no

JA: In Chrome...dev extension...
... Pops up in sep window

Some tools will not allow entering a null "" in alternative text. What do you do?

JS: WCAG recommends alt="" to show something is decorative image...US screen readers then ignore it

<AllanJ> evaluation tools sometimes flag empty alt as an error

<AllanJ> ja: broken tool

JA: So with javascript injection etc...the tools are having to be more dynamic...they have to look at the effective rendered content.
... Since code can be rewritten on the fly

JS: We are not trying to setup rules for people to get around...we are trying to educate people on what is needed for accessibility.

1.1.2 Indicate Unrendered Alternative Content: The user can specify that indicators be displayed along with rendered content when recognized unrendered alternative content is present.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#gl-access-alternative-content

JA: Prevents people from having to go hunting...eg. is descriptive text present
... There are FF extensions that do this.

<AllanJ> http://www.d.umn.edu/itss/training/online/webdesign/accessibility.html

JA: This is Laura Carlson's page, an amazing reference of things related to accessibility
... Opera has en extension for this...
... Icon pops up...if user activates icon, they will then get a list of iamges with descriptions
... Then there is a FF extension that puts longdesc link in popup menus
... This is all for longdesc...is there one for video?

JS: Youtube gives you an icon for captions

GL: Two things to mention...
... Items in rendered content have to have indicator near them...
... So general list would not satisfy
... Have demonstrated how this can be done in HTML using user stylesheeet...
... So it would be easy to write a browser extension.

Questioner: So user who is blind...might be asking for same things over and over?

JS: Yes, we will get to that...we have a section

<kenny> join #W3C TPAC#

JA: This would be one of those native HTML5 support things...
... For playing videos with captions
... Want to have..."author proposes, user disposes"

JS: Break?

JA: OK 10min break
... Back at 11:05

Yes I will keep the call up

<AllanJ> UAWG will break at 3PM to attend launch of Chinese Web Accessibility Community Group - Yangtse River Hall

<AllanJ> still waiting on others to show up

1.1.3 Configurable Alternative Content Defaults

1.1.3 Replace Non-Text Content: The user can request a placeholder that incorporates recognized text alternative content instead of recognized non-text content, until explicit user request to render the non-text content.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_113

JS: Reads intent...

Users may wish to hide images for a number of different reasons. Some users with cognitive disabilities may wish to hide images in order to avoid those that would be severely distracting. Some users with visual disabilities may wish to hide images in order to avoid those that are painful (such as those with high contrast). Other users may wish to replace images with alternative content...

scribe: because they are unlikely to be able to visually discern, understand, or otherwise benefit from the images. Some users with impaired motion or dexterity may wish to replace images with smaller alternative content to reduce the amount of scrolling they have to do, while some users with attention deficit disorder may wish to do the same thing in order to keep as much information visible on...
... the screen as possible.

JS: Any implementation examples?

Question: Will this doc be avaialble in accessible form?

JA: It is
... W3C stuff is also copyrighted...but avaialble internationally
... This placeholders for images, videos etc.

KP: Mercury mobile browser for iOS does this

JS: Pls put in IRC
... We found that mobile browser market is exploding so they have a lot of interesting features.

JA: Do you have URI?

KP: It is controlled from settings in Mercury
... > advanced

GL: Mainstream browsers such as IE...

<KimPatch> iOS mobile browser that allow user to turn off images:

<KimPatch> Mercury

<KimPatch> settings/advance/disable images

GL: And IE replaces images with alt when it exists

<Greg> In IE 10, use Preferences from the Tools menu, select the Advanced pane, under Multimedia uncheck the option "Display images". Images are then replaced by their alt text.

JA: T ehn you can reight click on images and have images reload

1.1.4 Provide Configurable Alternative Content Defaults: The user can specify which type(s) of alternative content to render by default for each type of non-text content, including time based media.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_114

JS: Intent: Alternative content is wasted if the user agent doesn't render it for users who need it. Default alternative content is a global setting because it is an unreasonable burden for users to change the rendering options every time they visit a new page.

JA: One example is IE

JS: Other examples...

GL: Possible to create user stylesheets that implement this.
... So can insert generated content that is your choice of alternative content attributes.

Question: Is there a fixed way user has to be able to do it?

JS: we try to give browser developers freedom in this area

Question: Burdensome to have to learn diff ways?

JS: Unless there was clear reason to go with one way, we would leave it open.
... This kind of flexibility has plussess and minuses...tried to keep creativity open...
... Always tempting to make narrow, restricitve rules...
... But WCAG1 tried this approach and was then outdated....WCAG2 was more flexible and more future proof

JA: We tried hard to be tech agnostic

GL: Was questioners concern the users difficulty?

JS: Yes

GL: Example?

Question: Just general questin...since some users will use different user agents...

GL: One thing we had to keep in mind was that GLs had to work for everything from conventional browsers to voice over phone browsers.

1.1.5 Facilitate Clear Display of Alternative Content for Time-based Media

1.1.5 Facilitate Clear Display of Alternative Content for Time-based Media:

For recognized on-screen alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video), the following are all true: (Level AA)

Don't obscure controls: Displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure recognized controls for the primary time-based media.

Don't obscure primary media: The user can specify that displaying time-based media alternatives doesn't obscure the primary time-based media.

Use configurable text: The user can configure recognized text within time-based media alternatives (e.g. captions) in conformance with 1.4.1.

Note: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size to meet this requirement.

JS: This was hard when we were trying to take into account very small mobile screens
... JA: Any implementations?

JA: There is long tail media player?
... Can have captions on top or bottom.
... I saw a csun presentation by youtube and netflix...with captions on the side...continuously scrolling...
... Really unique...thing we want to do....imagine professor writing on the board...
... Need to be able to customize
... Anyone else have example?

KP: Question...
... So several mobile browsers let you spoof other browsers...
... Could you use the mobile browser spoofing ability to get that ability
... e.g. Mercury lets you be another browser.

KimPatch - can you explain how that helps here?

Question: Like compatibility-mode in IE?

JA: Like that you can get the mobile-ver of Gmail.

Question: If you have user stylesheet (inaudible)

1.1.6 Allow Resize and Reposition of Time-based Media Alternatives

1.1.6 Allow Resize and Reposition of Time-based Media Alternatives:

The user can configure recognized alternative content for time-based media (e.g. captions, sign language video) as follows: (Level AAA)

Resize: The user can resize alternative content for time-based media up to the size of the user agent's viewport.

Reposition: The user can reposition alternative content for time-based media to two or more of the following: above, below, to the right, to the left, and overlapping the primary time-based media.

Note 1: Depending on the screen area available, the display of the primary time-based media may need to be reduced in size or hidden to meet this requirement.

Note 2: Implementation may involve displaying alternative content for time-based media in a separate viewport, but this is not required.

JA: This is an expansion of the earlier one

Question: Is it your expecation that all this stuff will be in the base browsers?

JS: We don't expect the browsers to be forked, but there might be extensions to do certain things.

JA: Would be nice if they were in the base brwsers....
... Rememebr most people with disabilities are older and don't self identify...
... Will they go and download extensions?
... prob not...but if there were helper functions built in they might be used...

Questioner: That's why HP repositioned their accessibility office as accessibility and aging..certain things are binary but other are more grdual (font sizes)

1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies

1.2.1 Support Repair by Assistive Technologies:

If text alternatives for non-text content are missing or empty then both of the following are true: (Level AA)

The user agent doesn't attempt to repair the text alternatives by substituting text values that are also available to assistive technologies.

The user agent makes available metadata related to the non-text content available programmatically, but not via fields reserved for text alternatives.

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_121

JS: Reads the intent...

When alternative content is missing, it can be helpful for users to access metadata such as the filename, which can be substituted as repair text. However, these are not as helpful as alternative content that's properly authored for the original document. In these cases assistive technology can provide users with information that may be more helpful than any one piece of repair text the user...

scribe: agent could provide. Therefore it's important that assistive technology have access to as much information as possible about the non-text content that needs repair, and also to be able to inform the user that no author-provided text alternative is available. User agents should provide assistive technology with available metadata for the non-text content that needs repair, but not...
... substitute repair text in ways assistive technology will mistake for author-provided text alternatives.

Question: What about crowd-sourcing to fix this material.

JS: We talked about it....in this case the 2nd bullet might apply
... So its clear to user that it is crowdsourced not from author

JA: We don't want the filename stuffed into the alt

JS: One of the big use cases is photosharing sites....
... Users upload lots of images without alt text but with lots of metadata

Question: There are apps that will do that automatically?

JS: Like what?

Question: Don't have names off the top of my head.

1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure

1.2.2 Repair Missing Structure:

The user can specify whether or not the user agent should attempt to insert the following types of structural markup on the basis of author-specified presentation attributes (e.g. position and appearance): (Level AAA)

Labels

Headers (e.g. heading markup, table headers)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_122

JS: Reads intent

When an author neglects to provide labels and/or headers as necessary for accessibility, the user agent can sometimes use heuristics to determine potential labels and/or headers from presentation attributes. Once potential headings and/or labels have been identified, the user agent can proceed (e.g. with communication via platform accessibility services) as if the relationship was defined in...

scribe: the markup. The user can specify whether heuristics should be applied because some users want to experience the content as the author provided it (e.g. to perform evaluations or when heuristics fail).

1.3.1 Highlighted Items:

1.3.1 Highlighted Items:

The user can specify that the following classes be highlighted so that each is uniquely distinguished: (Level A)

Selection

Active keyboard focus (indicated by focus cursors and/or text cursors)

Recognized enabled input elements (distinguished from disabled elements)

Recently visited links

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_131

JA: I haven't seen in CSS or browser...I haven't seen control of selection...I know there is some control at OS level

GL: This one is not so much how it is highlighted as much as that it is highlighted
... Preety much every browser I know uses inversion...
... Microsoft Word still uses hard coded for coloration
... Something to note about wording...ok have these things always on

1.3.2 Highlighting Options:

1.3.2 Highlighting Options:

When highlighting classes specified by 1.3.1 Highlighted Items, the user can specify highlighting options that include at least: (Level AA)

Foreground colors

Background colors

Borders (color, style, and thickness)

Size when the indicator is an image

Blink rate (where implemented)

http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/WD-IMPLEMENTING-UAAG20-20131107/#sc_132

JA: So this is the settings part

JS: We will have to do more work for this

KP: I can't find a mobile browser with user CSS
... Mercury supprots extensions

Guideline 1.4 - Provide text configuration

JS: Before last call we did a lot of revisions here based on some new research shared with us
... Reads: Note 1: Success criteria 1.4.1, 1.4.3, and 1.4.6 address configuration at a global level, that is, it changes all of the text. Success criteria 1.4.2 and 1.4.5 are at an element type level, such as configuring just the heading text.

Note 2: All of the success criteria under guideline 1.4 allow users to override the text characteristics specified by authors, and override user agent defaults.

Note 3: The success criteria in guideline 1.4 can be met through user stylesheets. For platforms without user stylesheets, text configuration needs to be provide to users through the user agent's main user interface.

<AllanJ> jbell: will there be testing to ensure the practicality of making these settings easy for the user.

<AllanJ> js: a qualitative test of an implementation is not addressed directly

<AllanJ> ... try to make the management of preferences "easy"

1.4.2 text size, color and font (by element)

<AllanJ> 1.4.2 Text Size, Color and Font (by Element): The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for text element types including at least headings and input fields:(Level AA)

<AllanJ> * Text size

<AllanJ> * Text color and background color, choosing from all platform color options

<AllanJ> * Font family, choosing from all platform fonts

<AllanJ> scribe: allanj

jbell: what is mobile or not mobile?

js: try to be general, screen size, portability, etc

1.4.3 Text Spacing and Style (Globally): The user can globally set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered blocks of text: (Level AA)

jbell: why these specific numbers?

js: research based. we used CSS definitions and reviewed i18n and typeography

1.4.4 Configured and Reflowed Text Printing: The user can print any rendered visual, non-time-based content to the user's choice of available printing devices. (Level AA)

js: user needs to customize the viewport to meet their needs, then when printed maintain the settings but reformat for a piece of paper.
... no implementations yet.

1.4.5 Text Style, Margins, Borders (by Element):

The user can set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered text content for main text and for text element types including at least headings and input fields: (Level AAA)

1.4.6 Spacing, Capitalization and Hyphenation (Globally)

The user can globally set all of the following characteristics of visually rendered blocks of text: (Level AAA)

ja: user css is an implementation

1.5.1 Global Volume

The user can adjust the volume of each audio track independently of other tracks, relative to the global volume level set through operating environment mechanisms. (Level A)

<Greg> The version Jim pasted in is outdated.

1.6.1 Speech Rate, Volume, and Voice

If synthesized speech is produced, the user can specify the following: (Level A)

Speech rate

Speech volume (independently of other sources of audio)

Voice, when more than one voice is available

question: can you specify which language will be spoken, and switch automatically between languages, switch speech engine.

question: in 1.6.5 if user changes the tone of the text to speech, it may change it so much that the meaning of words is changed for tonal languages?

sometimes the meaning changes

speaker: when using a screen reader, the user gets used to the speech generated and compensates

js: do you have any suggestions for non-screen reader (browser based speech engine)

kenny: IBM has an adaptive speech engine. it is server based
... a web browser can check the language used and rate and compensate.

questioner: I only user browser with a screen reader. not a self-voicing browser.

<Greg> While there may not be any or many self-voicing general-purpose web browsers at the moment, there are browser extensions that use text-to-speech to read pages or selected text. Those would be required to follow these success criteria.

js: this is a restriction on working group, as we can only write recommendations to the web browser not external applications used in conjunction with browsers.

kenneth: this is not the browsers job. it should be a screen reader or OS issue

gl: even if there are no browsers that are self voicing, there are extensions to read pages or passages, these SC will apply to them.

js: many reasons for having content read aloud, need to have the best configurable experience
... not happy to remove this section entirely

@@ on 1.6.4 bullet 4 explain what spoken literally

<jeanne2> ACTION: Jeanne to add to next week's agenda to discuss synthesized speech when used with a screenreader so that the screen reader takes precedence. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-917 - Add to next week's agenda to discuss synthesized speech when used with a screenreader so that the screen reader takes precedence. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2013-11-18].

<scribe> ACTION: jallan to raise 1.6.4 bullet 4 explain what spoken literally means at next meeting. Number SC very detailed, punctuation should be also [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-918 - Raise 1.6.4 bullet 4 explain what spoken literally means at next meeting. number sc very detailed, punctuation should be also [on Jim Allan - due 2013-11-18].

question: spelling, d or b (ham calls).

ja: how does this work in iconographic languages. Different characters have the same pronunciation

audience: allow user to interrogate the text, provide modifier words to distinguish between homophones

speaker: in Japanese, kanji pronunciation have a dictionary with word for each ideogram

<scribe> ACTION: jallan to raise homophones in tonal languages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-919 - Raise homophones in tonal languages. [on Jim Allan - due 2013-11-18].

perhaps find a synonym.

1.7.1 Support User Stylesheets

gl: stylish allows user styles for all pages, website, or specific page. with user interface to develop stylesheet

<Greg> http://userstyles.org/stylish

<Greg> https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/stylish/

gl: also includes an exchange service for users to share CSS

jbell: hybrid pages (combo of author, UA, and user)

ja; css cascade can make hybrid page

gl: stylish on FF, apply to a page, can say "no style" will turn off author styles and leave user styles intact.

<Greg> You can turn off author styles in Firefox from the View menu, which does not affect user stylesheets, including those applied by the Stylish extension.

jbell: is there a documented place where people can find extensions that have accessibility implications?

ja: extensions can be problematic because UA can change (update) and break extension.

jbell: feedback loop to extension developer?

1.8.1 Highlight Viewport

The user can have the viewport with the input focus be highlighted. (Level A)

jbell: any audio equivalent for this?

js: move this to the SC on timebased media

1.8.2 Move Viewport to Selection and Focus

1.8.3 Provide Viewport Scrollbars

gl: on mobile the scroll bars are not always visible is that ok?

js: have an example of always on. do we need expand?

gl: should be more explicit. should address that user can configure to have scrollbars always on.

js: would it be insufficient for scroll bars to only appear on use.

<scribe> ACTION: greg to raise issue with Kim of scroll bars always visible is important for voice only users. how important? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-920 - Raise issue with kim of scroll bars always visible is important for voice only users. how important? [on Greg Lowney - due 2013-11-18].

js: mobile? screen real estate is paramount.

gl: user should have the option,

jbell: on mobile, the scroll bar is implicit, visible but not distinguished

gl: scrollbars also provide indicator of location within the document. 1.8.4 when used with this (always visible) provide constant reminder of location.

1.8.5 Allow Zoom

adjourning for Chinese Web Accessibility Community Group.

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: greg to raise issue with Kim of scroll bars always visible is important for voice only users. how important? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to raise 1.6.4 bullet 4 explain what spoken literally means at next meeting. Number SC very detailed, punctuation should be also [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: jallan to raise homophones in tonal languages. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Jeanne to add to next week's agenda to discuss synthesized speech when used with a screenreader so that the screen reader takes precedence. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html#action01]
 
[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.138 (CVS log)
$Date: 2013-11-11 06:58:52 $

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Succeeded: s/accessibllity/accessibility/
Succeeded: s/avido/video/
Succeeded: s/about thinks/about things/
Succeeded: s/inpu/input/
Succeeded: s/...inaudible.../with Android we can write an accessible app, but it won't work on every phone. What is W3C doing to address this?/
Succeeded: s/(inaudible)/I am using IE and Chrome/
Succeeded: s/(inaudible)/Some tools will not allow entering a null "" in alternative text. What do you do?/
Succeeded: s/protability/portability/
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Succeeded: s/kenneth/kenny/
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Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Found Scribe: jeanne
Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Found Scribe: jeanne2
Inferring ScribeNick: jeanne2
Found Scribe: Jan1
Inferring ScribeNick: Jan1
Found Scribe: allanj
Inferring ScribeNick: AllanJ
Scribes: allanj, jeanne, jeanne2, Jan1
ScribeNicks: AllanJ, jeanne2, Jan1
Present: kelly Jan kim Jeanne JimBell(HP)
Found Date: 11 Nov 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/11/11-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: greg jallan jeanne

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