Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference -- 16 Aug 2013

<trackbot> Date: 16 August 2013

*me nope, calling in now

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

<shawn-off> It would be good to talk through the HTML & CSS for these. I copied it from your page to the wiki: <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Recommendations_for_Illustrations:>

<shawn-off> See what that did for the image under Zoom at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks#zoom>. Would need to do something different because the caption is wider than the images. Suggestions?

Illustration strategy for Easy Checks and other

AnnaBelle: I can address Shawn's concerns but not sure we can do it right now on the phone. These are good points and I will consider them as I take the next pass.
... Want to have illustrations that fit seamlessly into the text and that don't attract your eye too soom or too much and that illuminate the points.
... let's look at recommendations

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks#illustrationeg1

<AnnaBelle> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Easy_Checks#Recommendations_for_Illustrations:

AnnaBelle: Andrew and I wrote these and developed the prototypes with those in mind
... so far discussion seems to be about the ones that have two illustrations in a box. I would prefer to talk about single illustrations, like the page Title on
... why do we not use HTML5

Sharron: It may be because it is still not stable.

Wayne: and the intricate system of classes.

Vicki: I think the instability may be the main factor

AnnaBelle: I look to the actual existing code on the WAI site as a role model.

Vicki: And issues of compatibility with older screen readers.
... Steve Faulkner has a nice table that talks about compatibility with HTML5

Wayne: And we are shaky ground if we make accessibility decisions based on screen readers or any particular device.

Paul: Since HTML4 will be supported by all browsers indefinatly, it seems that we should make a decesion to move to HTML5 at some point and move forward.
... as soon as possible.

AnnaBelle: It is not a criticism not to use HTML5 but just wondering.
... in the meantime, any questions or comments about phase I recommendations.

Wayne: I really like #4

Paul: What is the reason for the left alignment?

AnnaBelle: I prefer centered captions, so this is a preference by Shawn and Andrew. Does anyone else know?

Wayne: Letters pack better when they are left aligned. It allows you to fit more into the line and easier for the eyr to follow a straight left margin.

AnnaBelle: Should I do two versions? One with centered captions, and one with left-aligned?

<Vicki> brb

Sharron: Do others have a preference for that centered caption?

<paulschantz> I'd like to see left

Howard: Yes, I like centered captions

Sharron: Sounds like the group would like to see both versions.
... AnnaBelle will put that acrtion in her wiki list.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/eval/checks#illustrationeg1

Sharron: Caption size seems quite small to me

AnnaBelle: In the browsers I have tested, it will shrink propotionately. Shawn made a case that it must be at least 700 pixels wise.
... What do others think about size of captions?

Paul: They do seem a bit small.
... But that is the convention - captions tend to be smaller than surrounding text.

Annabelle: Do you want me to make it just one degree samller rather than two.

Sharron: But maybe it is irrelevant.

Annabelle: Is 700 pixels wide a sufficient width?

Paul: Is that the default width, or the maximum width?

AnnaBelle: Maximum

Paul: I tested text only zoom and the captions zoom nicely.
... what is the reason for the lack of arrows?

AnnaBelle: That was Shawn's strong preference.

Paul: I presume that was becasue it would make the alt text much more complicated.

Wayne: The recent WebAIM study showed that visual complexity was the most disturbing aspect of providing graphic content.

Paul: It is better to chunk it up than to have arrows showing multiple aspects of a concept.

Wayne: You don't like greying out irrelevant sections?

<paulschantz> I checked 200 percent text zoom of captions using the "NoSquint" add-on for FireFox

AnnaBelle: I would prefer the use of arrows for some

Sharron: I think there may be cases in which arrows would be the correct way to illustrate one particular point.
... and a caption may address the visual complexity.

Wayne: And an arrow can take a complex issue and show you exactly waht to focus on , helps understanding

<paulschantz> Greying out makes sense when you have a large illustration that contains a lot of irrelevant info you need to block out for clarity. We're using mostly small illustrations here.

AnnaBelle: Should we postpone the further discussion until Andrew and Shawn can join?

Wayne: Yes but we should record the opinion of this group that we should not limit this illustration technique just becasue some person with a disability may not use it the same way. Arrows are part of the standard visual metaphore.

<Vicki> :)

<paulschantz> Def keep figure

<Howard_> figure looks fine

Annabelle: What do people think about using Figure: (no numbers) at the start of every caption?

<Vicki> fine

AnnaBelle: OK good, let's move on to the double illustration in one box...comments?

<paulschantz> I like it

<Vicki> +1

<Howard_> I think it's fine

AnnaBelle: Shawn mentioned that if you shrink the width of the browser, the images stack and the caption moves off to the left of the images.

Wayne: Well just fix it.

AnnaBelle: That is a challenge, I hear it.

Howard: if it was centered, it would align with the images, it is the left alignment that causes that to occur.

<Howard_> no, that was Wayne

<Howard_> sorry, that was me

Wayne: if we could show code that allowed everything to shrink and align nicely, that would be great.

<Howard_> it was used for zoom example

AnnaBelle: We had a conversation after the Indie UI illustration and I was fascinated about the fact that she thought it was OK to float left. So we may want to collect more examples before we make general rules.

Wayne: Sequential things, step 1, step 2, etc may use this kind of illustratin.

<Howard_> or when you want to show a couple of examples

Sharron: Do we have all the images now placed for the EasyChecks?

AnnaBelle: We may still have more illustrations in the queue, should check with Shawn.

Wayne: You can justify within the page and you can position within the block. There are threee blocks in the two part illustration - the two images and the caption.
... all three blocks can be centered, but within the text block the text should be left-justified.

Sharron: I'll add that as a to-do to Wayne's wiki list
... anything else for the group?

AnnaBelle: As a general rule, I try not to do in-line styling. But I orginally did inline styling becasue it made it easier to handle. Are people OK with having the inline styling to define the width?

Vicki: It should be in the CSS

Howard: Me too

<paulschantz> +1

<paulschantz> +1 for Sharron!

AnnaBelle: I am not aware of a way to do the width for various image sizes.

Howard: I am OK if there is no easy technical way to do this without a numbe rof exceptions.

Wayen: it is very difficult ot override with user style sheets, they become tortured.
... in fact it is such a problem that I have to write restrictive code to wipe out author styles

<Vicki> -Vicki

trackbot, end meeting

- DRAFT -

Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

16 Aug 2013

Agenda

Attendees

Contents

Illustration strategy for Easy Checks and other

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output