See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 07 March 2013
<richardschwerdtfeger> scribe: Rich
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: skip over publication status
<dino> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html
<nikos> Zakim +61.2.9 is me
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: at the last face to face we though it would be a go change to create a new svg matrix that is integral with other specifications so that could be used with canvas
<krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/matrix/index.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: they thought it was good and to evolve over time
<krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html#webidl-ref
<richardschwerdtfeger> the interface is quite similar to the interface proposed by D Jackson
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: I made more compatible with SVG matrix. It has a 2 dimensional scale. it scales to the x and y axis
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: there is one more change. for svg matrix for 2d compatibility
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: just 2d instead of 3d
<dino> the change was rotate() to be compatible with SVG, so is only 2d
<dino> but 3d is covered by rotateAxisAngle
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: maybe you should take vector x, y, z
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: just the x and y
<richardschwerdtfeger> thanks
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr/we did not have skew z
<dino> smfr: suggest renaming to rotate(double angle, optional double originX, ...)
<dino> smfr: the fact that x,y is origin should be clear, and that the x,y,z from rotateAxisAngle is a vector
<krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/matrix/index.html#the-constructors
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: I would like to ask the same question as David Baron. Can they take a string and slam into a transform attribute
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: yes. takes a DOM String and does a CSS transform
<richardschwerdtfeger> Kitt: if you have an element get the transform out of it. … the pixel would not be the same.
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: maybe this text needs some non-normative examples. The spec. is isolated right now
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: the specification can reference it.
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: i happy to put more informative text in it
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: examples like this one with a constructor with dom strings in it and the transforms.
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: when you are inputing a string where it the text for the conversion into the matrix
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: that is why issue 3 is there
<richardschwerdtfeger> … I think it is ok to put an example in
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: if we keep it I will extend the example
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: for SVG it might not be a problem because SVG 1 is already a recommendation
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: if you translate 2020 to 20px
<richardschwerdtfeger> … trying to learn the voices
<richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
<ed> Constructor (DOMString transformList),
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: this takes double
<ed> new Matrix("translate(20,20)") something liek that
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: yeah that works. you don't have units for the pixel
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: one for presentation and one for CSS presentation attributes. We can't say we have a relaxed syntax for the DOM string as well.
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: we have 2 different syntaxes at the moment - one relaxed and one strict
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: we can decide what people want?
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: I don't see why the CSS wg would object to that.
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: do we publish this?
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: yes
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: SVG WG wants to publish Transformation matrix interface spec as a first public working draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> Dean: why don't we ask to publish it as a first public working draft?
<richardschwerdtfeger> thanks
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: Krit mail the spec. to the effects list and have David Barron review. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3470 - Mail the spec. to the effects list and have David Barron review. [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-03-14].
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-transforms/
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: I will reference HTML5 vs. the working draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: put an action on me to make that happen
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I will contact the appropriate people to make it publish
<richardschwerdtfeger> nikos: Any idea why my changes would not result in a notification?
<ed> ACTION: erik to follow up on getting the SVG2 WD published, run linkchecker etc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3471 - Follow up on getting the SVG2 WD published, run linkchecker etc [on Erik Dahlström - due 2013-03-14].
<richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Can I touch the spec. since you are taking it to public working draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: can we reference a specific version in Mercurial?
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: wait until we get this published
<richardschwerdtfeger> nikos: Once publication has happened, we will need to remove highlighting for changes since last WD 1, in preparation for editing for WD 2
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik:
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: do not address to day and leave on mailing list
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: OK
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: all masks are clipped at the moment
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: I would like to ask if we could skip this binding and use the bounding box. … an unbound mask
<richardschwerdtfeger> Krit: only place - filters are bound.
<krit> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/masking/index.html#MaskElementXAttribute
<richardschwerdtfeger> smfr: I don't have any problems with masks being unbounded.
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: the default value matching is 10%
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: ah ok
<richardschwerdtfeger> smrf: I think this important in HTML where you may be masking and the content overflows and you don't want the content to get clipped by the mask
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: the clipping could effect the content
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: to me it sounds better to use the unbounded one but I guess that is something to look at to see how much content is effected
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: guess not that much
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: how do we get data as to whether content is effected in a negative way.
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: this does not affect explictly set x, y with height.
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: yes
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I guess one way to look at it would be see what authoring tools output.
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I don't think there is going to be much of a problem
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: do we want to get to a resolution or delay that
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I think it would be fine to have the spec. allow it and deal with any concerns at the next draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: next version should be the last call
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: do you see any problem along that or the other way around
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: there is the property called mask .. maskclip but this does not apply to the mask element
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I don't have a strong opinion
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: any objections to having unbounded masks?
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: allow unbounded masks and see what we get back from last call
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: CSS X, y, and height . Is it ok that we don't specify them in SVG2 and not in this specification?
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I think that is probably fine
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: so at the moment there is nothing to reference
<richardschwerdtfeger> @support rule for filter effects extension
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/default/filters/index.html#support-condition-filter
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: I put this on the mailing list
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: Ok so follow up with the discussion on the mailing list
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: the only problems as we have some filter effects that produce infinite boundaries
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: things like lighting filters or inputs could be effected
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: this filter has a drop shadow
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: we still have the 10% margin and everything outside gets clipped awayu
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I agree this problem has been up for discussion a number of times
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: for example feFlood has unbounded output, so can just fill the viewport e.g
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: there can be problems. I would write a proposal where there could be problems and with a solution for that. Is it worth it for me to do that or is it too difficult to be specified
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: we have a sort of unbounded filter region already with filterUnits=userSpaceOnUse, requires impls to optimize otherwise perf is really bad
<richardschwerdtfeger> erik: I think it would be much of a problem to run a similar filter on this
<richardschwerdtfeger> krit: can you and I work on that?
<krit> ACTION: ed and krit to work together on an unbound filter proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3472 - And krit to work together on an unbound filter proposal [on Erik Dahlström - due 2013-03-14].
<krit> ACTION: krit to work together on an unbound filter proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3473 - Work together on an unbound filter proposal [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-03-14].
<richardschwerdtfeger> Erik: I don't have any problems with publishing a new working draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: would like to get tabindex out in a public working draft
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: never mind
<richardschwerdtfeger> :-)
<richardschwerdtfeger> RESOLUTION: publish a new working draft of the filter effect spec.
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: krit create the public working draft [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3474 - Create the public working draft [on Dirk Schulze - due 2013-03-14].
<scribe> scribenick: cabanier
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2013JanMar/0055.html
richardschwerdtfeger: I started working on tabindex
… we found a number of interesting points that we need to agree on
<richardschwerdtfeger> 1. Do you agree that the way event listeners are registered in SVG and HTML
<richardschwerdtfeger> should be the
<richardschwerdtfeger> same? -- both should support `element.addEventListener("click", ...)` and
<richardschwerdtfeger> `element.onclick = ...`. (The latter needs some spec work still, but
<richardschwerdtfeger> implementations all support this.)
richardschwerdtfeger: this discussion, should we follow the same scheme for eventl listener like html
… how are they registered in svg 1
<ed> rich, did you see my response here: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Feb/0061.html (please keep technical discussions on the www-svg list)
krit: it should not be different
ed: it should work the same, yes
… did you see my reply
… I responded to some of your points
richardschwerdtfeger: I didn't see that
<richardschwerdtfeger> 2. There are some inconsistencies between the events SVG defines to fire
<richardschwerdtfeger> > and those in HTML. We need to be harmonizing these and
<richardschwerdtfeger> > should do it for SVG 2.
… number 2, there are inconsistencies. we have focus out in svg 2 but HTML has onblur
… should they be consistent or should there be a mapping
krit: onfocus is already used. can we have them in parallel or should we map them?
richardschwerdtfeger: not sure.
ed: it should be possible to map them. they are different event
<richardschwerdtfeger> This is about SVG not having the focus and blur events, right? I think SVG
<richardschwerdtfeger> should have them. Feel free to add a complete list of the inconsistencies
<richardschwerdtfeger> you found.
richardschwerdtfeger: since we're sharing the same dom, should we have the same events?
krit: so, if onfocus fires, onblur should fire too
richardschwerdtfeger: yes.
… SVG didn't have keyboard focusable events
krit: blur is for mouse
richardschwerdtfeger: we do have the anchor
… what do we want to do for that?
… should the spec say that they're the same
ed: they are 2 different events
… I don't see a problem with allowing both and then mapping them so old and new content
… one might fire after the other
richardschwerdtfeger: OK
… so maybe only 1 event listener
ed: no, you can have listener for both events
… I'm not sure if they're connected right now but they could be
richardschwerdtfeger: where would the event stop. would it go outside the svg container?
ed: with an iframe?
richardschwerdtfeger: we have an svg doc in a html doc. the onblur in the svg is not processed. does it go up?
ed: if the svg is inline, yes, it should
richardschwerdtfeger: …(?)
… if we have onfocus out and onblur and nothing captured them, only onblur would get out because onfocus is not recognized by the parent
<ed> not sure that's correct
<ed> events typically bubble regardless of the event type if they bubble
… the next one is: how do the document and window align between html and svg
… what if you have a reader that only supports SVG. how much of HTML do we have to implement?
… Cam, suggested the following text:
<richardschwerdtfeger> Cam suggested the following intorductory text:
<richardschwerdtfeger> >
<richardschwerdtfeger> > Conforming SVG interpreters are not required to implement HTML;
<richardschwerdtfeger> > however, some specific features of HTML are required to be
<richardschwerdtfeger> > implemented.
<richardschwerdtfeger> >
<richardschwerdtfeger> > And then later in the spec:
<richardschwerdtfeger> >
<richardschwerdtfeger> > A conforming SVG interpreter that does not also implement HTML
<richardschwerdtfeger> > must implement the following IDL fragment:
<richardschwerdtfeger> >
<richardschwerdtfeger> > partial interface Document {
<richardschwerdtfeger> > readonly attribute Element? activeElement;
<richardschwerdtfeger> > };
<richardschwerdtfeger> >
<richardschwerdtfeger> > The activeElement attribute must have the same behavior as
<richardschwerdtfeger> > described in HTML. [with a link to HTML's definition of
<richardschwerdtfeger> > activeElement]
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2013Feb/0061.html
<richardschwerdtfeger> Document element Interface: https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#InterfaceSVGDocument
<richardschwerdtfeger> DOM Document element Interface: http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-dom-20120405/#interface-document
<richardschwerdtfeger> HTML5 Document element Interface: http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/dom.html#the-document-object
krit: is it part of the integration spec?
richardschwerdtfeger: I posted 3 links
… we would say to add this text for SVG to the document object
… for SVG standalone, you'd have these properties
… does that make sense?
krit: I think I have an action on this
… we already relying on the document interface of HTML5
richardschwerdtfeger: so, you're referring to the document object of htmk5
krit: yes. I have an action to add the link
richardschwerdtfeger: you want this spec:
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/dom.html#the-document-object
richardschwerdtfeger: that's the cr version
krit: ah. I think I have the wrong one then
… I'm using the partial interface
… HTML5 is relying on the definition of DOM (?)
… this is a problem. We have dom4 now
<richardschwerdtfeger> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#InterfaceSVGDocument
richardschwerdtfeger: this is the current spec
… I need the activeElement to be there
krit: If we say document is an HTMLDocument
richardschwerdtfeger: we have other things in here
<richardschwerdtfeger> partial interface Document {
<richardschwerdtfeger> readonly attribute DOMString title;
<richardschwerdtfeger> readonly attribute DOMString referrer;
<richardschwerdtfeger> readonly attribute DOMString domain;
<richardschwerdtfeger> readonly attribute SVGSVGElement rootElement;
<richardschwerdtfeger> };
… this is what we currently have
… and we want to add activeElement
… and it's not in DOM4
krit: is it in html5?
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/editing.html#dom-document-activeelement
who is editing dom4?
richardschwerdtfeger: I don't know
krit: could you follow up?
<krit> s/up/up with Anne van Kesteren/ ?
https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/domcore/raw-file/tip/Overview.html
krit: can you follow up with Anne and other?
… ms2ger is also good
richardschwerdtfeger: for publishing, you might want to add the right link
… here it is:
<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/TR/dom/
… do we need title, referrer, domain in dom 4?
<scribe> ACTION: richardschwerdtfeger to ask HTML WG and Anne to add activeElement to their spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Error finding 'richardschwerdtfeger'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.
<scribe> ACTION: rich to ask HTML WG and Anne to add activeElement to their spec [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/03/07-svg-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3475 - Ask HTML WG and Anne to add activeElement to their spec [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2013-03-14].
<richardschwerdtfeger> 4. When HTML refers to tab navigation it indicates the elements that can
<richardschwerdtfeger> receive focus without using tabindex. Examples are command, input, and
<richardschwerdtfeger> anchor elements. Cam and I think this is fine if the UA does not implement
<richardschwerdtfeger> HTML and therefore won't be doing anything with <html:input> elements for
<richardschwerdtfeger> example, then it doesn't matter if they are focusable by default or not.
<richardschwerdtfeger> Yet, in terms of defining that <svg:a> is focusable by default, we might
<richardschwerdtfeger> need to get HTML to change there -- either by having a hook that we can
<richardschwerdtfeger> refer to from SVG to state that <svg:a> is focusable by default, or just by
<richardschwerdtfeger> HTML defining it so. Do people agree we should define this in HTML?
richardschwerdtfeger: we might need to html to change their spec
ed: svg tiny already does define that elements are focusable
richardschwerdtfeger: do you want to put that in our spec that certain elements are focusable?
ed: that would make more sense.
richardschwerdtfeger: are there others that are focusable in tiny?
ed: yes, you could do it on any element.
richardschwerdtfeger: we were using tabindex
ed: we can see if it can be made compatible
richardschwerdtfeger: tabindex of −1 would change the tab order
… would this change the tab order?
ed: yes
richardschwerdtfeger: so it's equivalent to tabindex 0
… so you think we should say something like that?
ed: yes
<richardschwerdtfeger> rich: so focusable is equivalent to tabindex="0" in DOM order sequential navigation
richardschwerdtfeger: do we need to say anything in the HTML spec since anchor is alreadu focusable
ed: I'm unsure. aspects in the model are not defined
richardschwerdtfeger: yes, that's the browser context
…. if we need to go to the html wg we can do that
<richardschwerdtfeger> 5. The HTML5 spec. defines how to process browsing contexts. IOW documents
<richardschwerdtfeger> in a document when it comes to sequential navigation. Do people agree we
<richardschwerdtfeger> can just refer to the HTML5 definition of browsing context? This will also
<richardschwerdtfeger> be important when we embed <iframe>s in and SVG document per the face to
<richardschwerdtfeger> face.
<richardschwerdtfeger> This was the approach I was going to take when adding tabindex.
richardschwerdtfeger: do people agree that we refer to browsing context when we do sequential navigation?
ed: yes
krit: yes
richardschwerdtfeger: ok, we'll refer to HTML5 and go from there
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