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<trackbot> Date: 25 January 2013
trackbot, start meeting
<trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference
<trackbot> Date: 25 January 2013
<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
<Suzette2> Hi this is Suzette
<AnnaBelle> Hi Suzette
<hbj> I'll be 5 min late on the phone
Shawn: Good progress. Has everyone had a chance to skim and get an idea about what it is we are trying to do.
Shawn: It has been edited a bit, basically the same template. You're encouraged to fix typos and such as you find them. For today, let's discuss overall tone, content, sensability and high level observations.
Ian: The part where we say Chrome
and others don't display, we could add the possibility of
adding as a Bookmark which will reveal titles.
... and in many browsers even if it is displayed if it is long, it may not display all of it. So there are challenges with all of them really.
Shawn: Is the another way to look at titles other than Bookmarks?
Liam: You can mouse over the tab
and the full title is revealed.
... not sure about Opera.
Shawn: Yes, I just tried it, it does. Wonder if there is a non-mouse way to check?
Jennifer: I am boggled that titles don't play that big a role for sighted people.
Shawn: reads from text "The first thing..." Do we want to say more? Is it strong enought? Should we say more?
Jennifer: I just don't even think about it. Will try to rememeber to check. I don't want to add length or complexity but it is important to orient among multiple open windows or tabs.
Shawn: Maybe we need to say it is what shows up in the browser tab. (adds note)
Bim: If you want to highlight the importance, it is a good confimrantion that I have actually gotten to the link I chose. When you have different browsers open, the unique title becomes important. Have the specific page title first followed by the general web site.
Shawn: Anything else about the Page title section?
AnnaBelle: Do we want to mention SEO even though it is not directly related to accessibility?
Shawn: I was reluctant to change the focus from accessibility, but I did make a mention, not a detailed discussion.
Bim: IN what to look for, you have adequate title, unique. Should include that it is even titled. That a title exists - that it is present and then that it is adequate.
Shawn: Back to SEO mention...is it enough, too much?
Jennifer: Leave it as is
Liam: The reader of this is not someone who needs to be persuaded, would be happy leaving as is or even removing it.
Bim: It is a good balance.
Anna Belle: Leave it in, good grounding for those who know about it.
Ian: And even if they don't need to be convinced, they may need to convince others.
Shawn: So once you do this, what next? Do we need to add a section about what ot do?
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn to add "What to do now" section to Easy Checks. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/25-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-266 - Add "What to do now" section to Easy Checks. [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-02-01].
Sharron: I think we should steer clear of that.
Ian: The counter argument is that it is reaaly common to raise bugs with no direction. So it might be nice to at least link to reporting problems or some next step.
Shawn: Perhaps to have a section
about how to report it without detailed remediation
... any more about Page Title? with these changes is it good?
<LiamM> Is good.
Shawn: You can still make changes, add notes, comments, etc
Shawn: This one is a bit different format, we can look at that? Intro, what to check for and specific steps on how to do it. Currently it has the validator, Firefox toolbar and BAD as tools. Any comments?
Liam: Is it allowed to complain
without a solution?
... the issues we tend to have when teaching this in classes is that with the nested hierarchy, h3 belongs within an h2 etc and then you use a new h2 when introducing a new topic. It is a difficult concept for people to grasp for some reason.
Shawn: While the purpose here is not to teach how to create good headings, do we want to provide more guidance about what to look for?
Suzette: What does WCAG2 say?
Shawn: Used to organizae content, but not hierarchy.
Sharron: Are you saying the Guideline does not promote hierarchy?
Liam: The Techniques documents do.
Shawn: Now we have linked to the Understanding documents that then will further link to the Techniques. Do we want to link to Techniques if they are are particularly relevant?
Liam: (provides techniques to
... I got them by following through Techniques
Shawn: OK I have added those
... any further comments about the level of detail, approach, are these the right checks to inlcude? Do you ahve anything other to recommend?
Liam: The information and View
... outline headings can be unreliable.
... looks good, we can always come back and change if needed.
Shawn: Question for BAD use, Shadi?
Shadi: No we have an example of a heading that is not really a heading, but not one where the heading markup is omitted.
Shawn: It would be nice to have a page with no headings as an example to see what you would get in the vlaidator.
Liam: Wait - in the BAD demo there is no heading on the interior BEFORE pages and there are nicely nested headings on the AFTER pages.
shawn: But there are headings on the meta pages.
Bim: I find lists of links where each one is an h3 or h5 for some reason. Developers may be thinking that if a link leads to a page, it is in need of a heading.
Liam: And where every item in the navigation is a heading.
Bim: And screen readers will read
all of them, you can't target only h2s without reading through
all of them, following the heading level.
... so much page noise.
Shawn: Would you be able to consider marking this up for the next version of BAD?
Shadi: Yes, but I don't see how we can do that without metapage headings. But regarding the other one, I will add it to the list.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi to add to the BAD wishlist "marked up headings that should not be headings" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/25-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-267 - Add to the BAD wishlist "marked up headings that should not be headings" [on Shadi Abou-Zahra - due 2013-02-01].
Jennifer: So following on Bim's comment, we can remove my suggestion in the notes about consistency.
Liam, Bim: Discussion of how screen reader navigate through headings
Suzette: I was looking at the news page on BAD and there is a lack of proper headings that is referenced differently in the Before than the After versions.
Liam: Yes 1.3.1 is an excellent citation for that.
Suzette: But 2.4.6 is called Headings and Labels and is a level AA criteria
Bim: It seems under successive levels there is increased granularity.
Shadi: We had some discussion about this. The reason we connected that is first the focus on level A. It is the same heading just marked up differently so we felt it was realted more closely to the intent of 1.3.1, focused on the markup. So that is the rationale, but please submit questions or comments.
Suzette: Where to send?
Liam: One of the success criteria talks about using headings for visual effect.
<Suzette2> +1 to Bim's comment
<LiamM> Also see F2 http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20120103/F2.html - failure to use heading when you should have
Shawn: Review Bim's comment and
let's discuss if we need to add more to linked images.
... what more would we say about those?
... or I can put a placeholder and Bim or Suzette can add to it.
Liam: I enjoyed the comment about
it not being an exact science.
... Liam reads the section "Appropriate alt text is not an exact science. Some people prefer more description of more images; and others prefer less description.
... Can I throw a test case? Main log in with three buttons, Clear, Continue, Forgot password. Alt text was empty. In that case there is no difference of opinion on ones like that.
... So to emphasize that the critical functional issues must be found in the Quick Checks.
Bim: Would it be worth a "in cases other than where your alt text is not essential, such as functional icons,..." comment.
Liam: If the image is not important, is only decoration, empty alt is proper. That may be the right place to say that if an image is actionable, it really must have a text equivalent.
Shawn: Seems like we may want to
do a bit more on that point.
... there is a lot here for an Easy Check. Is there something that can be removed? Anything essential needed in the Tips?
Suzette: I took the Tips and
reorganized them a bit and numbered them. Tried to put the
things that you have to do first.
... it had seemed randome, I tried to add a bit of logic.
Shawn: We may add
... is this what you have someone do who is learning about this? or something different?
... we have looked at sections that have a consistent approach. Sharron and Suzette, you are looking at a couple of sections that have a different format. You should use the organziation that works best for the topic and we will look at that when they get to this level.
Shawn: We had been working with
the idea that we would have the 5 minute drive by check. 5
things in 5 minutes kind of approach and then also have the
"Deeper Look" section.
... what we have found so far, something like Page Title that should be very very simple become more complicated depending on browser. Other may be tool dependent.
... If we had heading checks in the first section, it would ask to use WAVE and validator, which is more complex than what we would have in the Deeper Look, where using the FF toolbar is actually easier.
... also we have pared down the list so it is fairly short. Should we then have just one list?
... or should we keep the original plan for two?
Liam: With just one section would we get it published sooner?
Bim: One section makes sense to
me. Inexpert users are our target. The five minute target is
not realistic. Fifteen minutes, with a bit of experience is
... Let people know they will ahve to dedicate at leat 15 minutes.
Shawn: Good point and we had not decided to assign time to this part. Anyone want to keep two sections? Any objections to making just one?
RESOLUTION: Agreed to omit the two section organziation and to make Easy Checks one thing.
Shawn: The issue is for example,
on the alt text section we have very detailed instruction on
how to check with the validator, in the FF toolbar, and on any
... then we say try it with BAD
... one approach would be to repeat those instructions in the same level of detail saying put this BAD page in and here is what you will see. Advantage is it is really easy to understand. However, it is a lot of text.
Jennifer: and maintenence becomes an issue.
Shawn: Other possibility is to say "follow the instructions above on this page." and look for these outcomes.
Jennifer: Option 2
<hbj> Option 2
Anna Belle: I really like BAD but I am not comfortable with interspersing it within this document. I am not sure I would use it the way it is suggested.
Shawn: This is not meant to be a tutorial about how to use BAD but you might be confused when you are testing pages that fail. So the idea was to show how the check itself might work. You bring up a good point that people will print out the document.
<shadi> +1 to expand/collapse this extra info!
Anna Belle: So BAD is used as a validator of your testing techniques?
Shawn: Yes soemone who just wants to know how to use the easy chacks.
Shawn: You can see now that there
are various introduction lengths, from paragraphs to a few
... thoughts about what to do about BAD? do we want to remove it to a separate page?
Liam: It may remove a level of complexity
Shadi: What if we continue to
develop in unison a we have been doing but put the BAD sections
in an expand/collapse? Then we can decide later if it needs to
be put in another document.
... I kind of like having it here. May add complexity to put on another page.
... the process of looking for examples is useful.
Shawn: That will be a hard decision I think. So let's take the middle path. Not add all the steps but use BAD as an example when possible. Keep in mind as we continue to develop what the final best option will be.
<sylvie> I have no concerns with these phrases.
Anna Belle: I miss "temperature" in the new version
Helle: Ther are no concerns with translation from my perspective
Sylvie: Not from mine either
Shawn: OK it is back in
Shadi: it works in Arabic. I did not say if I liked it or not.
Bim: Repetition of term "accssibility barriers" is discordant with a screen reader
Helle: Could we make it stronger in the third by saying significant? Is that necessary?
Shane: We can flag these for word smithing.
Helle: What about ending third paragraph earlier?
Shawn: A version did that but seemed to end on a negative.
Sharron: Could combine sentences, onit the last and have a very crisp introcution. "These checks are designed to be quick and easy, rather than definitive and cover jsut a few accessibility issues."
Shawn: Is this the right amount of information, need to say more, less?
<AnnaBelle> +1 to checklist idea
Helle: If you want a check list, and point them to it?
Shawn: I on't understand
... you mean a chack list for these items that allow for Yes No Maybe?
Helle: Yes something like that but I have not thought it through.
Shawn: It may take more time than
what we can do in this first iteration, but may add for the
future. How to document your findings. Especially if you are
sending off to somewhere or someone else.
... anything else?
Sharron: I am happy, I think it is good
Jennifer: No strong opinions
Helle: The FF toolbar may need to be part of tools...
Shawn: I have notes to make a few changes but otherwise, we will not go look at this again unless future issues are raised.
Shawn: Ian you ahve the assignement to look at a few items, rought drafts for us to review for inclusion here.
Ian: Yes I have mostly written an explanation of the differences. I will submit and see if it is worth having a check for.
Shawn: Ther is some stuff drafted
in there about text resizing
... the issue would not so much be explaining it but whether it belongs in a list of quick checks. You could edit what is there based on your research.
Ian: OK I will do that this week.
Shawn: If you can get it to us on
Wednesday we will ahve a day for review.
... Sharron and Suzette you are working on a couple of sections?
Sharron: Yes Suzette took a pass I have not reviewed.
Shawn: Suzette, you may notice I
left in the contents list a mention of Links in case you still
want to advoicate for inclusion here.
... otehr section that has not yet been assigned "Color Contrast" Much text is there, needs to be pared down, do we have a volunteer?
Helle: I am on holiday starting in 10 minutes.
Shawn: Anna Belle, can you add
the Color/Contrast section to your list of To-Dos
... pare down the text that is there?
Anna Belle: If it is simple text editing, I am happy to do it.
Shawn: If you can take the content of that section and format it in the way the other sections are organized.
Sharron: I will work with you on it Anna Belle
Shawn: Jennifer can you draft a section on what to do next? with the findings from tehse tests?
Jennifer: If you can give me an
idea of what you want in this section?
... how to write a good bug report?
Shawn: More about what do you do with this - based on Ian's comment to encourage people to report. Maybe point to How PWD use the Web, How to report, etc
Ian: There is a minimum level of detail that makes a good bug report. Why it is a problem, where it is found, any idea about how to fix.
Helle: If you are making an internal report would it be useful to say there are things that you can do yourelf, but you may need to report on things that are generated from CMS and so would need to report to the CMS managers.
Jennifer: OK I will draft soemthing so we have a starting point for discussion.
Shawn: Thanks all. Who will be at the F2F?
Jennifer: I am planning to come.
Ian: I am not coming, I will be there Tuesday evening but not before.
Helle: I will be there only for the F2F
Shawn: Thanks all, we're doing good. We are trying to get a draft of this for CSUN.
<sylvie> zakim unmute me
track, end meeting
trackbot, end meeting
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: Sharron Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron Default Present: Sharron, AnnaBelle, Shadi, Bim, Shawn, IanPouncey, Suzette, Jennifer, hbj, +44.137.381.aaaa, LiamM, Sylvie Present: Sharron AnnaBelle Shadi Bim Shawn IanPouncey Suzette Jennifer hbj +44.137.381.aaaa LiamM Sylvie Regrets: Vicki Andrew Wayne Emmanuelle Helle_(?) Found Date: 25 Jan 2013 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/01/25-eo-minutes.html People with action items: shadi shawn[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]