Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

18 Jan 2013

See also: IRC log


AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim, Sharron, hbj, Suzette, +61.4.473.8.aaaa, Andrew, +44.123.961.aabb, LiamM, Sylvie
Emmanuelle, Vicki, Wayne, Denis, Shadi


<trackbot> Date: 18 January 2013

trackbot, start meeting

<trackbot> Meeting: Education and Outreach Working Group Teleconference

<trackbot> Date: 18 January 2013

<scribe> Scribe: Sharron

<shawn> CSUn session schedule: http://www.csun.edu/cod/conference/2013/sessions/index.php/public/conf_sessions

Indie UI Overview

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/intro/indieui.php

Shawn: We briefly looked at this in early draft. Planning to do an announceof the first working draft soon, let's get first overview comments.ment of the first
... length, tone, any first impressions?

Suzette: What is its history?

Shawn: It's brand new, the Working Group started on it last year. The concept of what it is doing is meant to be very easy to understand despite its technical nature.

<Andrew> Indie UI w/gp launched in May 2012

Shawn: let's tak a look at the Introduction. Does it communicate what it is?
... any suggestions for making it clearer.

Liam: Don't know much about the topic. The intro makes me want to read more, peaks interest.
... seems to do what you want an intro to do.

Andrew: Is it as much "a way for..." as a guide to?

<Andrew> or even a standardised way that the interactions should work

Shawn: One possible approach might be to address that is to flip the second and third paragraphs.

Suzette: From what Andrew said, it seems like the second paragraph more specifically says what it is.

<Andrew> " Indie UI will define a way for those different interactions to be translated into a simple event - scroll down." from para 2

Helle: I am wondering if the Indie UI going to make and define the events or will they define what is necessary for others to do.

Shawn: My understanding is that there will be two layers: the events layer and the user context layer.
... if the device can detect what the user is doing, it will allow the device to respond to that.

Helle: This is for all devices, not just assitive technology

<Andrew> and for all users, not just PWD

Shawn: Yes that is an excellent point. We look at it from our perspective but it is meant to help anyne as we use different devices to access the web.
... does that point come through sufficiently?

Helle: Becasue our focus is so much on assistive technology, that is our framework. So the fact that "different devices" can cover a huge number of devices, perhaps should be mentioned.

Liam: But it is a good thing to give assistive technology a specific nod. So maybe give mobile and tablets a nod as well.

<shawn> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/indieui-draft.php

Shawn: Would it be useful or fun to have illustrations of the different modes of access?

Helle: I did not really understand these illustrations. Perhaps if they were integrated into the text it would be clearer.

Andrew: I initally found the illustrations distracting. If it was a diagram and could sit next to the text for the example in the Indie UI: Events section and be more illustrative of the concpet.
... going along with the idea of having a diagram rather than a photograph.

Shawn: Other ideas about diagrams?

AnnaBelle: I love diagrams but are there accessibility consideratins?

Bim: Yes when it is a new concept, it can be very useful for those who can see it and if it simply illustrates the concepts within the text, the alternatives are not difficult.

Shawn: Anyone know an illustrator who might volunteer?

AnnaBelle: I could take a go at it.

<Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to ask 'is it ready yet (no)' info is missing

Liam: The only thing missing from the intro is the sense of whether this is ready now? The answer ios no and should be made clear.

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-260 - IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].

Liam: that it is more of a heads up that it is coming.

Shawn: OK Annabelle what would be your time frame/availability for mocking up the diagram?

Annabelle: Could have something by 1/24 or 1/25 - does that work?
... or the end of the day 1/23.

Shawn: Great, thanks!

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-261 - IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].

Shawn: Watch for announcement next week. It is pretty cool new work and has broad appeal. We are hoping people will get excited about it.

Easy Checks

<shawn> title brainstorming: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Eval_Analysis#Title_ideas

<AnnaBelle> I still like it very much

<Bim> I still like it

Shawn: We did brainstorming on title last week, are open to otehr ideas. Please add to the wiki.
... next I took a pass at edits to two of the sections. They are a bit different from the template, so let's discuss

<shawn> Check image text alternatives <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives>

Shawn: Reminder that we are still in very draft form so this is not polished, still experimenting with format etc so feel free to be as creative with changes as needed.
... look at this one and discuss what works, doesn't work, etc

Liam: Looks good.

Shawn: Reminder that we want to provide some options for people who don't see the page to be able to do some checks. So we start with validation that will indicate if alt text is there at all.

Bim: I think that can be complex though, for blind testers it will depend on what screen reader you have.

Shawn: So your method would be what?

Bim: I would use the validator.
... Yes
... and would not require screen reader specific instructions.
... some screen readers will ignore images with no alt text unless there is a link.

<LiamM> FF dev tools +1

Suzette: I think using the automatic tool is a good start to help them find whether it works. But I would not use WAVE for this. I prefer the Web Developer Toolbar for Firefox.

Sharron: I agree, the WAVE tool is so visually cluttered.

<Andrew> +1 or the IE Web Accessibility toolbar

Liam: I might use different methods myself and recommend to other developers.

Shawn: But what if you have a newbie, an advocate who is not a developer?

Liam: The Web Developer Toolbar, actually.

Shawn: What we were trying to do was to provide a level of checks that anyone could do without downloading additional software. Then we were planning another level if you were able, interested in downloading tools.

<Andrew> in FF - right click on image and select 'view image info'

Shawn: the other thing is the flow of how we present this information, what will be the flow.

<sylvie> I would like to note that even if the developer toolbar from Firefox contains the word "developer", it is easy to use for disabling images, or showing heading and make the issue understandable for non technical people who want to check a page.

<LiamM> +1 what Sylvie said

<Andrew> ditto with http://paciellogroup.com/resources/wat/ie

Sylvie: I agree with Liam. The checks are easily performed and give you such clear results, you do not need to be technical to understand.

<AnnaBelle> As a developer my first choice is view source

<hbj> +q

<LiamM> Tau?

Suzette: What about the Spanish accessibility testing page?
... I will look for it.

Bim: If you are looking for something very simple, the Functional Accessibility Evaluator that can be loaded into the browser

Shawn: Is there a stand-alone version?

<Andrew> http://fae.cita.uiuc.edu/

Andrew: Yes there is

Helle: I was thinking about a problem we have here. We have strict rules about what I can download and no adminstrator rights.
... so I must have tools that are web based or do not require admin rights. I could not, for example use the Toolbars that must be downloaded.
... I could not recommend anything that included the need to download.

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to suggest tools list at end of doc for (slightly) more advanced users

Shawn: That's why we wanted to make two levels of checks - the first with no need to download, the second where that IS a possibility.

Andrew: Because so many of the tools are so easy to use if youa re able to download, I wonder if it is useful to have a list of free tools that we think would be useful.

Shawn: Clearly there is consensus that we want to put additional tool information somewhere we have just not yet sorted through how to do that.

Helle: Would it be possible to see if you can use without adminstrator rights?

Shawn: I'll take an action

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-262 - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].

Sylvie: We are preparing a training for next week. They run a virtual machine and the question is if we have all the tools we need. The developer toolbar from Firefox is one that you can install without admin rights.

Shawn: Thanks for that, any other comments on this alt text sections?

Sylvie: The advice so far is good but we should also add the information that human judgment is needed about quality fo alt text.
... It would be helpful to not make this only reliant on blind people's needs but be useful to go beyond one disability. Needed by those with voice input and machine searches.

Shawn: There is a challenge between giving a more complete explanation and our desire to keep these quick and short.
... should we look for a place to point to externally?

Sylvie: I think you can make it short and add at least one other use case.

Bim: People who are keyboard only users and may use Search
... browser search won't find image based on alt text.

Suzette: Aren't there optiona on all browsers to say you don't want to download images and then see the alt text?

Shawn: If images have a size defined, you get a box of that size with alt text. Other problems can occur, inlcuding page layout changes and hidden alt text. It can be difficult to use effectively.

Suzette: Yes, WAVE does seem to address a lot of those user needs.
... and FANGS

Sharron: Yes I love FANGS too but think it may not have been updated recently.

Shawn: If we go with the approach - the 5 top items don't use tools and the rest may include tools - we may want to give the instructions for WAVE and a kind of disclaimer, that could work.
... may not have it two places, but maybe instead sections within each section for if you can download tools and a section if you cannot.

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to talk about context

Andrew: Context of an image needs to be taken into account. Not sure how that gets drawn out in relation to what is there, but wanted to put it out for consideration.

<shawn> ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-263 - <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [on Shawn Henry - due 2013-01-25].

<Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to ask about headings 'Quick Checks' and 'A Deeper Look'

Helle: When we talk about using WAVE as a tool that does not need downloading, maybe help them learn to View Source. It is easy to guide them through. Even without knowing code, they could find it.

Liam: Not as easy with more scripting in the code

Andrew: It may be frightening, intimidating.

Helle: I agree that WAVE can sometimes be overwhelming and not clear.

Andrew: Previous iteration allowed you to toggle items to be checked on and off.

Liam: High level headings are Quick Checks and A Deeper Look. If the title is Quick Checks, that should be changed.

Shawn: Yes since we have recently renamed the overall document, we will revisit.
... will also take another edit pass.

Subtopic: Check Headings and Lists

Shawn: Many of your previous comments apply to this section. Any additional comments?

<shawn> Check headings and lists http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_headings_and_lists

Liam: Nothing about ordering of headings.

Shawn: One of our discussion topics was that we would try to steer away from contentious issues. There is contention about the heading levels.

Liam: There is either meaning to level 1,2,3 etc or there is not.

Shawn: So we need to say something about that perhaps.

Andrew: Maybe provide a bit of leeway - something like headings are preferably structured this way.

<LiamM> Heading levels should be a meaningful hierarchy.

Helle: Can we mention the need to not use lists when headings are more appropriate?

Liam: It is contextual.

Helle: But we see it often and may need to make the point that lists should be used for grouping related items.

Shawn: It was called "Check Headings and other Semantic Structure" thought that was intimidating. Are there other things to add?

AnnaBelle: I found the addition of lists confusing. For Easy Checks, maybe just headings?

Liam: Yes agreed

Helle: agreed

<Andrew> +1 to headings only

<LiamM> Liam was agreeing with AnnaBelle

<Suzette2> +1 headings

Shawn: So if we separate out Headings, what other semantic mark-up might be useful?

Liam: Meaningful structure but it might be too large a topic for a Quick Check.

<Suzette2> lists are navigation?

Shawn: Include lists a s aseparate item?

Helle: what about labels?

Liam: Not sure that inaccurate list structure is as important as labels.

Shawn: So leave lists entirely out of Quick Checks?

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to mention confusing vs. unusable as criteria

Suzette: Links are often held within lists and are very important so seems like it should be referenced in some form or another.

Andrew: A criteria for inlcusion should be whether people are likely to be confused by it or stopped from doing something.

Helle: Links might be better addressed on their own rather than in relation to lists.
... it may not be a big accessibility problem.

Bim: I am a bit torn becasue personally I use lists a lot in navigation. But the problems introduced by misuse of list structure, like definition lists, ordered vs unordered lists, etc are less critical than headings.

<LiamM> +1

<Andrew> +1

Shawn: If you have navigation that is not marked up as a list, how much of an issue is that?

<hbj> +1

Bim: Becasue I can pull up a list of links in JAWS it is less of an issue. But if it is placed within a list, you can bypass the entire list if wanted. So while lists are preferable they do not create impentrable barriers when omitted or done badly.

Suzette: It will be useful to make a reference to lists perhaps within the links section of the Quick Checks.

<Andrew> Bim - that is what I meant by inconvenient or confusing vs stopping a person using a page

Once of the things in this section is the tutorial of how to use BAD. I am assuming this will be on a toggle about how to use BAD to accomplish this check.

Subtopic: Introduction

<shawn> Introduction http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Introduction

Liam: It is very friendly
... the only less friendly is the long "Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology" maybe that could be rephrased.

<LiamM> If possible, avoid saying 'WCAG-EM, Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology.'

Shawn: Any other response about what needs to be changed, added, is missing?

AnnaBelle: Could be shorter

Helle: Looking at the sentence, needs rewriting "hey are provided to guide in the performance of some simple tests that can indicate whether or not accessibility has been considered in even the most rudimentary way."


Liam: The second paragraph certainly gives that idea. But the headings don't lead you into that.

Shawn: So a question was whether we have that "disclaimer" in the intro paragraph only or do we also need that in each section.

Liam: You can keep it short but simply add to each section a link "To see if you are passing WCAG" and link out to more comprehensive.

<Zakim> Andrew, you wanted to mention 'no tools'

<Andrew> +1 to mentioning in intro and in sections

Andrew: Is it worth adding to the intro that the Quickest, the Top 5 can be done without tools?
... many people think you must have a whole bunch of tools.

<Zakim> LiamM, you wanted to suggest remove 'provided to guide in the performance of '

Liam: can just lose "provided to guide in the performance of some" to improve that sentence.

Shawn: We started out with a really really long list and pared it down based on criteria of quick and non-contentious checks.
... reminder that this is in the wiki. Please feel free to add to, edit this section or others.
... there is a link to previous drafts. We can always go get old versions if needed.
... soemtimes hard to find so occasionally I will take a snapshot before making significant changes.
... may come a point where we call a stable version and ask you to check in with a main editor before making changes, but we are not there yet.

Andrew: You mention tools that I don't understand in the Color Contrast section. What is a lexical tool?

Shawn: Something that Wayne added. Notice that at the bottom of the sections I just edited is a link to the old version and all of Wayne's notes are there. There is a lot of narrative beyond the Easy Checks, it is archived so feel free to change.
... who can take a pass at next sections on this? Color/Contrast, Forms, others

Andrew: Can't promise but will try to takea pass at Color/Contrast

Shawn: In thinking about forms include considerations of keyboard
... Sharron, update media

<scribe> ACTION: Sharron update media. update forms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-264 - Update media. update forms [on Sharron Rush - due 2013-01-25].

<scribe> ACTION: Ian update zoom in Quick Checks wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-265 - Update zoom in Quick Checks wiki [on Ian Pouncey - due 2013-01-25].

Shawn: Remember that on top of EO are actions for all.
... meeting at CSUN. Thanks for input and see you next week.

<Suzette2> Sharon - I'll have a look at forms and think about what we needd to do!

trackbot, end meeting

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Ian update zoom in Quick Checks wiki [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action06]
[NEW] ACTION: Sharron update media. update forms [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> add to WAVE instructions that this is only if you can't download a tool. then add instructions for FF Developer toolbar separately [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Shawn <http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Web_Accessibility_Preliminary_Evaluation#Check_image_text_alternatives> to tips add context -- e.g., dog breed or just decorative [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add real address instead of "An email address for sending comments is included in the "Status of this Document" sections." [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Shawn to IndieUI Overview - add status of the docs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2013-01-18 15:37:55 $

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Found Scribe: Sharron
Inferring ScribeNick: Sharron
Default Present: AnnaBelle, Shawn, Bim, Sharron, hbj, Suzette, +61.4.473.8.aaaa, Andrew, +44.123.961.aabb, LiamM, Sylvie
Present: AnnaBelle Shawn Bim Sharron hbj Suzette +61.4.473.8.aaaa Andrew +44.123.961.aabb LiamM Sylvie

WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: zakim, [IPcaller]_is_Suzette)
Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list,
such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ Emmanuelle, Vicki, Wayne, Denis, Shadi

Regrets: Emmanuelle Vicki Wayne Denis Shadi
Found Date: 18 Jan 2013
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2013/01/18-eo-minutes.html
People with action items: ian sharron shawn

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