See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 20 December 2012
<ed> scribeNick: ed
ds: we have mask-* properties, would like to add... ... shorthand function
<krit> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/FXTF/raw-file/tip/masking/index.html#mask-property
cm: would apply to mask element, wheterh the mask content should be interpreted as ...
<cabanier> scribenick: cabanier
heycam: it is a bit confusing if masktype applies to the mask element
… and the things that get masked
… what the mask is describing depending on what it's applied to
krit: I would like to have in the short-hand
… masktype should be consistent
,,, the problem is that we have to special case the mask-type
… this means that we can't mask a mask
… in the future
birtles: can't we rename mask-type to mask-source-type?
heycam: so make the one from the shorthand mask-source-type
… or we can rename the other one
krit: that sounds fine with me as well. should we try to make it shorter?
heycam: have the longer one for the one that is used in the shorthand
everyone: that sounds good
resolution: we'll have mask-source-type property as part of the shorthand and leave mask-type property as the one that just applies to the mask element
<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0059.html
heycam: we should have someone to review his comments
krit: I didn't read it yet
heycam: are these new features?
krit: I think they're additions
nikos: angle for dropshadow seems useful
<scribe> ACTION: Dirk to review filter effects proposal [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3404 - Review filter effects proposal [on Dirk Schulze - due 2012-12-27].
heycam: we need a plan so we can migrate the exisitng tests into the new test suite
…and make sure that they're still valid and in the right format
… for a lot of them, we can just split them out
… and make them reftests. The problem is creating the reference
krit: some things like masking is hard to test as a reftest
heycam: yeah. maybe we can do simple paths with raster images
…or we can a couple of manually inspected test for these things
… with reftests, there is always the problem that very basic primitives are hard to write tests for
… maybe we should have visually inspection
krit: yes, at some point we will have to do that
heycam: yes
krit: We should have a day on our F2F to talk just about testing
… testing is very important for the specification
heycam: for our exisitng test, would people object that they are assigned a block of test?
…not for detailed review, but just to check
… and then at a later date, write reftests for those
heycam: we can get started on that while we're in Sydney
krit: yes
… first review and then ref tests
heycam: I will look into what's needed to make the format right
<scribe> ACTION: heycam to allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3405 - Allocate chunks of the test suite for different people to review [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
heycam: I would like to know where to put test in the repository
krit: the CSS WG just puts everyting in a folder
… with support for testharnass.js
… you write the test and put it in the same folder as the reftest
<heycam> http://wiki.csswg.org/test/scripttest
<scribe> ACTION: heycam follow up that scripted tests can go in repository [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3406 - Follow up that scripted tests can go in repository [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
krit: Peter Linss can help us write a real test suite
heycam: yes, we need to figure out how to run shepard
krit: I restarted the thread on www-style.
…authors would like to use this.
… I will bring it up on the FX tast force
heycam: I'm not surprised that there was no response
… I think it's a difficult topic. It's a major thing
krit: that might be
… I would like to start with just a couple of properties just as x and y
… to make it easier
heycam: patrick had a list
krit: I saw that
… we still need to figure out with attributes that are used twice
… and we might need new names
… We should start by agreeing with new names
<TabAtkins> That info was laid out in one fo the old threads.
shepazu: I don't agree that we need new name
<heycam> TabAtkins, this has all been discussed before, you are right.
krit: right now some attributes depend on the element such as x, y on text or a rectangle
shepazu: I prefer that each element can have its own behavior
… I'm unsure where the group is on different names such as rectX, etc
… does anyone think that width height in SVG than it is in CSS
heycam: I don't think so
… It depends on the pattern of renaming that we will use
… if we use longer descriptor names, it might make sense. Otherwise no
shepazu: does it make sense to not add cx, cy to a circle and stick to x and y?
krit: the CSS WG doesn't even want x and y
<TabAtkins> We don't want x and y because those are on the "used in two different ways with different grammars" list. ^_^
krit: (reading Tab's irc)
<heycam> It could be just as easy as saying "rect { x: 10px 20px }" is treated just like 10px
<heycam> if we wanted to use the same syntax
<heycam> not sure how much of a problem it really is
shepazu: maybe we can say that x/y is treated differently
heycam: we can talk about boxes in SVG
krit: that is a totally differnt
topic
... I would like to see circles directly in HTML and <p>
directly in SVG
... at that point we need to decribe the boxing model
… but it's still not working. we need 2 different properties
<TabAtkins> (I'm fine with x/y as just being properties used by the SVG layout model, and <text> exposing some differently-named property for its x/y stuff.
<krit> would work as well, again, just an edge case that we need to resolve on later
shepazu: the HTML WG is becoming more modularized
… we could write a new module that descibes SVG in HTML
… and have bare SVG elements
krit: it doesn't have to be a new module
shepazu: yes. but how would we do this?
krit: we are not working on SVG fonts
… and a lot of things are not implemented and FF and IE are not going either
… so I would like to remove from SVG2
heycam: we agreed to have a separate module
… I do agree with your point to have a separate module. However, I don't know how good use of a time it is
krit: it's already in its own module, so we can split it off
heycam: yes, but it's in the SVG 1.1 spec, so they can still implement it
ed: I think we have actions. Chris has an action to create a new font module
… I have an action to move the tiny font
heycam: you will move the chapter of the tiny spec into the main spec?
… do you still agree that we should do that
ed: whatever's easiest. as long as it's a required part
heycam: it's very unlikely that we will implement that
… I don't know if that matters.
shepazu: I think it does.
… getting consensus on if a feature is part of the language is important.
… otherwise authors will have a bad time
… even if it's a module, we should say if it's required or not
krit: I'd say the fonts module is not part of the core
Tav: I think the SVG fonts are serving a different purpose. For instance decorative purposes
shepazu: I agree with you
… how, today the inkscape output does not render in FF, IE or webkit
… this harms every authoring tool
Tav: inkscape doesn't support svg fonts today :-0)
shepazu: so this proves my point
…you and Eric say that they want to keep SVG fonts, but they've never been properly supported
krit: yes, WebKit only had a small part of fonts implemented
shepazu: also, there will be SVG fonts inside of OpenType
… that is one way
… for instance, groovy text is very hard to use with SVG fonts today
… we should look at what features we want from SVG text
<ed> clarification: I do want to keep SVG *Tiny* fonts, the SVG 1.1 full fonts are just underspecified - and would need much more detail (the same applies to svg-in-opentype as well)
<heycam> +1 to what doug just said about associating text with graphics
tav: this solution, would you be able to select the text?
krit: SVG in opentype can do a lot more than SVG fonts
… animation for instance
shepazu: that's not quite true
… however, we're talking about adding features. We're not talking about dropping features
heycam: I think with Doug
… marking graphics with a title/description
… would be a good idea
… It would be a good idea that you could select the box and copy the text
shepazu: I think that sounds great and especially if it can be implemented easily
heycam: I agree that what's in the spec is what we want people to implement
shepazu: yes, that is the goal of SVG2
Tav: it would be good if there's an alternate way to get access to the content (inside the glyph)
heycam: I recently heard that some people had troubles with outlined text
<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2012Dec/0070.html
shepazu: regardless of our decision on font, I would like to push forward with groovy text
… it would be nice that you can aggregate strings
heycam: yes, that's why I want to define the selection area
shepazu: maybe having them as seperate elements will do that
heycam: yes. I would like to think about a feature like this
<ed> that looks similar to altGlyph
<ed> (which isn't part of svgfonts)
<heycam> good point ed
<heycam> we should look at what altGlyph affords us now
shepazu: krit, why do you want SVG fonts to drop?
heycam: because we think SVG fonts are not the right direction
krit: ???
... we won't drop exisitng support because of legacy
reasons
shepazu: is your point that ie and ff not implementing, is doing more harm than good?
krit: yes
heycam: we can discuss this more
during the F2F
... does anyone have remarks on the groovy text proposal?
... I will come up with a more concrete proposal
krit: yes, how you use it, where, etc
<scribe> ACTION: heycam make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/12/20-svg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3407 - Make a concrete proposal for associating text with graphics [on Cameron McCormack - due 2012-12-27].
shepazu: Josh Davis will talk at w3conf
<shepazu> http://openvisconf.com
… ??? asked me to submit a paper on accessibility of data visualisation
… if anyone is interested in making some examples
… I would love that
… this conference is in May
richardschwerdtfeger: I have some material that you can reuse
shepazu: and talk about connector and ARIA
… if anyone knows anything other conference where we can promote SVG
topic SVG at ISO
shepazu: W3C can have its specs rubber stamped
… we want to get an SVG ISO spec
… are we planning on making a SVG 1.1 version 3?
heycam: no
shepazu: SVG 2.0 is not ready in 2013
… if a spec is an iso spec, it can be used by more people (ie governments)
… it comes down to, having more people using your technology
cabanier: don't we lose rights to our own documents if we submit to ISO?
shepazu: no. The W3C worked out a special deal. ISO can't change or owns the spec
… people can buy the specs from ISO but there is a link on the ISO URL where you can download the spec from the W3C
shepazu: so, if we give them something this year, it should be SVG 1.1 second edition
richardschwerdtfeger: what state do we expect SVG2.0 to be by the end of 2013?
heycam: CR hopefully
richardschwerdtfeger: this would mean that epub would pick it up for 3.1
heycam: that could be good since epub is picking up all the CSS features
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