<stearns> bah
<scribe> ScribeNick: leif
plinss: agenda dditions? Did get note from sylvaing_away
dbaron_: Did you see my comments on animations?
plinss: no
dbaron_: I replied to the minutes
plinss: If we have time, otherwise defer to next time
<Ms2ger> www.w3.org/mid/20121218214248.GA2120@crum.dbaron.org
… molly has been reminding people to sign up on wiki
<dbaron> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0268.html
… still probably people missing. Sign up now! Or risk not having hotel
… She also sent a hotel booking number
… Microsoft asked for Rossen to take over editing from Alex and Phil
… for Grid and Flexbox
… no objections
RESOLUTION: Rossen new editor of Grid and Flexbox, taking over for Alex and Phil
… kicking a few issues down the curb
TabAtkins: Still not ready to talk about them
Rossen: the multiline issue?
… basically two issues
… reposted a couple of days ago
… has to do with what do we consider orthogonal
… Will vertical writing mode treat flexobx as vertical
<dbaron> are we now discussing the issue that TabAtkins said he wasn't ready to discuss?
<TabAtkins> Yes.
… I don't see why we shouldn't allow multicol with a horizontal writing mode behave like a vertical writing with flex-flow: row
TabAtkins: This is very similar to something in multicol, we were able to come up with something that often gives ok results
… willing to look into somethign similar here
Rossen: Are you talking about the algorithm you gave to Elika to resolve auto-width columns
TabAtkins: No, something recent a mozilla dev brought up to make multicol and flexbox work consistently
<dbaron> (Daniel Holbert)
<SimonSapin> leif: is your mike close to your keyboard?
… We worked on the multicol sizing algorithm so would respond better to wrapping in a flexbox, could do something similar for flexbox in flexbox
… current naive solution doesn't always give good results
… not ready to discuss just yet
… Just need time and energy to think about this
<Rossen> http://software.hixie.ch/utilities/js/live-dom-viewer/?saved=2022
Rossen: I can give the test case
plinss: Defer then
<SimonSapin> leif: great :)
TabAtkins: See summary e-mail
<TabAtkins> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-css-wg/2012OctDec/0315.html
dbaron: Raised a bunch of issues yesterady
… Might be worth getting it a little more stable
TabAtkins: Can we not just address them quickly in LC?
dbaron: We should be mostly lalright
… In your reply you said that scoping for !important and scope goes backwards through the scopes rather than forward
… that seems backwards to me, and I didn't see it in the spec
TabAtkins: In the paragraph before we talk about style attr, to match the behavior of non-!important origins go ua-author rather than author-ua
… Scoping is kind of like nested origin, so should probably do the same thing
… Should override any contained scope
dbaron: Not sure that the rationale for the backwards thing for ua-user-author still holds
TabAtkins: I am surprised by that position, but not saying it's wrong.
plinss: But is there an objection to publishing?
TabAtkins: Sorry, didn't mean LC
dbaron: I'm ok with publsihing as long as we note the defaults thing as an issue
… and maybe note the scope thing as an issue
TabAtkins: Fine with that
… just want to get a new WD out, last is 7 years old
… people talk about TR version
<dbaron> default issue: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0270.html
RESOLUTION: Publish Cascade WD with issues dbaron mentioned (scoping and defaults)
<plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0100.html
<dbaron> the scoping issue is the issue of whether !important should go in reverse for scopes
<plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0142.html
dbaron: Before we get into it, we should discuss whether we want to make the change
…that's more important
TabAtkins: neutral. Understand the authoring hazards. But should make the change not just for @supports, but other boolean things, like MQ
… a global change
dbaron: I'm inclined to defer, because I haven't thought about the details
SimonSapin: We should also fix MQ, but not sure about compat
dbaron: Shouldn't be compat problem
… unless there's broken content out there that doesn't work now
… but pretty rare
… Worry is it might be bigger than just those two, but probably not
SimonSapin: I would prefer making this change everywhere
… but another solution is to require spaces inthe grammar
plinss: Any thoughts?
TabAtkins [too fast]
TabAtkins: Is SimonSapin's intent to avoid people typing spaces wrong from reading the spec?
dbaron: When suggesting requiring spaces, I meant also requiring a space on both sides of "and' and 'or'
SimonSapin: Consistency is good
TabAtkins: no problem with it
dbaron: Preference is requiring spaces after 'not' and on both sides of 'and' and 'or'
<dbaron> that's a weak preference, though
Bert: Agree with dbaron, but no strong opinion
… yet
SimonSapin: Requring spaces is an easy solution, but a better solution is to fix the grammar
<SimonSapin> spaces: easy solution; no spaces: better for authors
plinss: Requiring spaces allows us to introduce a 'not' function later
… doesn't require learning the difference between function tokens and other things
dbaron: Don't want to introduce a not function
<dbaron> ... later that's something different
plinss: If we never introduce a not function then spacing is optional
TabAtkins: Not willing to say never introduce not function
sylvaing: Form the calc experience, requiring spaces where people don't expect them is painful
… they will learn, for sure
dbaron: Words and symbols are differnt, though
SimonSapin: Remember that if we require spaces, anything invalid evaluates to false, and can later be negated
TabAtkins: Caught by the general invalid syntax
plinss: Consensus?
RESOLUTION: Spaces not optional in @supports
dbaron: I'll figure the wording out. It's an editorial question
<SimonSapin> S* → S+ ?
<dbaron> SimonSapin, yeah, mostly, but there might need to be prose tooflorian I'll need to check
plinss: fantasai will write into
SteveZ: No objection, but strange to LC and document that's not done yet
plinss: Just has to write intro, wants resolution early because of holidays
SteveZ probably accidentally disconnected
SteveZ: I understand, but is it really not going to get published
plinss: dunno, but Bert will be away
Bert: Will be away until 8 Jan
TabAtkins: fantasai will be back at the end of the week, bu tno meeting for 2 weeks
RESOLUTION: Publish css3-text-decoration LC with intro from fantasai
plinss: glazou is willing to
sylvaing: He seems to be in a good spot to do that
RESOLUTION: glazou liaison to EPUB
<sylvaing> ..because he implements EPUB
plinss: I'm trying to get HP to join
dbaron: Just added a test, needs review
… added errata in ED
TabAtkins: Thanks, we've been waiting for that
dbaron: Plan to raise an issue on the errata, but that's for later
<darktears> Zakim: ??P5 is me
plinss: krit brought it up, but not here today
… anyone else can talk on this?
plinss: Defer this one
oops
TabAtkins: 3 specs waiting for that, and fantasai and dbaron have comments
<dbaron> the most recent thread was http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/thread.html#msg239
dbaron: Can you state the issue?
TabAtkins: trying to, but can't right now
…let's do animations
<plinss> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Dec/0268.html
dbaron: In some cases I had trouble understanding what the resolution was
<Ms2ger> s/Publish css3-cascade LC with intro from fantasai/Publish css-text-decor-3 LC with intro from fantasai/
… but also some other things should be decided
… Simplest thing is animation-play-state not being in the shorthand
… on purpose
… Does that mean not specifiable in the shorthand, but it doesn't reset it, or does the shorthand reset it?
TabAtkins: I believe the former
<dbaron> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/showbug.cgi?id=14787
… not specifiable, BUT reset by shorthand
dbaron: sylvaing and smfr agree?
smfr: I think the example of the shorthand, not including the property, could be surprising
dbaron: There are examples of that
… background does it
… font
<dbaron> border resets border-image
TabAtkins: I think so, unless we made it more complicated
plinss: Not an unreasonable behavior, there's precedent
… using a shorthand should reset everything in that type of property
smfr: Since this is fairly complicated stuff [missed]
… Since a new spec, we should go for least surprise
… not including play-state inthe shorthand
dbaron: You're taking back last week's resolution
smfr: yeah, we didn't consider the resettiong problem
plinss: What was the problem of having it in the shorthand?
TabAtkins: Ambiguaity with animation-name
dbaron: like everything!
TabAtkins: How are we not ambigiuos with the others?
dbaron: Lots of fun, spec doens't get into it, requires a lot of caer with serialization and parsing
… thread 6 months ago
TabAtkins: I see, There's a note in here, probably inpromprerly worded
… The first ident that appears is the animation-name
dbaron: wait, that's the opposite of what i expect
TabAtkins: The first time value is duration, the second delay
… [missed]
dbaron: Would not be web-compatible, I suspect
TabAtkins: in that case, spec is underdefined
… issue 3 about this
dbaron: Let's get back to earlier issue
… smfr says we should scratch last week's resolution
TabAtkins: agrees
dbaron: I'm fine with that.
… Given the 3 options, fine with 2 options where shorthand reset play-state
sylvaing: I think it's the more consistent option
… but trying to think of compat issues
dbaron: Gecko always implemented it
… have not heard of ocmpat issues
sylvaing: But it's only working there
… now if we chang ethe spec and other browsers support it…
smfr: I don't thiink including play-stae in the shorthand would case WebKit problems, becuase prefixed
florian: still large usage of unprefixed version
dbaron: Take back comment about Gecko… i followed the spec
sylvaing: In retrospect that should have been the definition, but with unprefixing, awkward to change
smfr: play-state is not used much in the wild
sylvaing: Our browser sticks around a bit longer than the average
… it will be invalid in IE 10, but not a huge risk at this stage
… seems silly to not have it there
sylvaing: Will open a bug and fix the spec
RESOLUTION: Put play-state back into the animation shorthand
dbaron: There was a reoslution about animation starting when not display: none
… two problems:
… Also applies to ancestor with dipslay: none
TabAtkins: animation of child starts when ancetsor gets box
sylvaing: I'll have to check what I put in there.
dbaron: I was just reading minutes, not the spec, so may be in there
sylvaing reads from spec
… should cover what dbaron said
dbaron: Spec is right
... Prose answered both of my issues
… third issue is hardest
… A resolution says animations only run with one at least one valid keyframe
… It would make sense to solve a different issue first
… and make this issue's solution match that one
… And that is what happens when some values in keyframes cannot be interpolated
TabAtkins: Doesn't exist anymore
… all values are interpolatable
dbaron: Also in level 3?
TabAtkins: Dunno, thought to do it quickly
dbaron: Even so, does a valid keyframe, mean something with a valid keyframe selector, or that and a property inside
?
sylvaing: Could be empty
dbaron: Reason I think it should have property is that keyframes get examine seapartatly for any property
… 25% keyframe meniotned top, and 100% mentions left
… you animate [missed]
… you animate props, and those props may be present in keyframes
… Depends on whether animation is animating any props.
<TabAtkins> @keyframes { 50% {} }
TabAtkins summarizes dbaron: keyframes rule iwth valid keyframes but no property in it
<dbaron> sorry, my parents don't actually have any non-cordless phones in the house
if you have that, would it be invalid
<TabAtkins> @keyframes foo { 50% {} }
sylvaing: If you mean does it fire animation if there's a duration on it
… we don't ignore it, it's valid
… even if nothing moves, i expect my events to fire
… even if you have props in there
<TabAtkins> @keyframes foo {}
TabAtkins: How does that jive with…
… not firing events
?
… this and the prev one looks the same to me.
sylvaing: good point
… we can't just look at the keyframes
TabAtkins: Are you objecting to what we agreed last week?
sylvaing: yes
… regardless of duration, if no props require animation, should we fire
… My question is more: does animation run if it has duration or has property in it
TabAtkins: Last week we agreed "prop"
sylvaing: we can do the same here
<tantek> is there new information?
TabAtkins: Yes, for the same reason as last week
sylvaing: Not sure last week's was valid
florian: So what does it mean for dbaron's issus?
dbaron: This is the primary issue
smfr: keyframe sets without properties inside, never seen that in the wild
TabAtkins: Motivation seems to be filling with script
florian: [can't hear]
… a UC would be an online animation editor
… starts an animation in a loop
… wants it to run even if it doesn't do anything
… before you start adding stuff in it, want events
… So may be worth firing events
… duration could be enough
plinss: Not sure we have a solid answer
… next year?
dbaron: Probably best
plinss: Enjoy your time off
plinss, should I do something in particular now?
as scribe, I mean
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/cascade/text-decoration/ FAILED: s/Publish css3-cascade LC with intro from fantasai/Publish css-text-decor-3 LC with intro from fantasai/ Succeeded: s/SimonSapin/smfr/ Succeeded: s/not play-ate/play-state is not/ Succeeded: s/righ5/right/ Succeeded: s/.../florian/ Found ScribeNick: leif Inferring Scribes: leif Default Present: plinss, leif, SimonSapin, +1.415.615.aaaa, rhauck1, hober, Stearns, JohnJansen, SteveZ, smfr, +34.97.362.aabb, antonp, Bert, Tab_Atkins, David_Baron, [Microsoft], arronei_, Rossen, darktears, florian, tantek Present: plinss leif SimonSapin +1.415.615.aaaa rhauck1 hober Stearns JohnJansen SteveZ smfr +34.97.362.aabb antonp Bert Tab_Atkins David_Baron [Microsoft] arronei_ Rossen darktears florian tantek WARNING: No meeting title found! You should specify the meeting title like this: <dbooth> Meeting: Weekly Baking Club Meeting WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth WARNING: No date found! Assuming today. (Hint: Specify the W3C IRC log URL, and the date will be determined from that.) Or specify the date like this: <dbooth> Date: 12 Sep 2002 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/12/19-css-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option. WARNING: IRC log location not specified! (You can ignore this warning if you do not want the generated minutes to contain a link to the original IRC log.)[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]