User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference

08 Nov 2012

See also: IRC log


Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, kford, Jan, +1.609.734.aaaa, Kim_Patch, Markku
jimAllan, KellyFord


<trackbot> Date: 08 November 2012

<kford> rrsagent agenda?

<kford> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AiiGLIaAlHSKdHNrcGNacUp2MHdXQW9sUmpBQ21Lenc#gid=0

<kford> start on 2.3.2

<kford> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0012.html

<kford> RRSAgent: zakim, microsoft is kford

zalim, aaaa is really Markku

<scribe> scribe: jallan

open item 1

open item 2


gl: does add/remove cover show/hide
... does add allow user to create new toolbar
... does remove only mean uninstall

jr: agree, add should mean to reveal or show, not create new bars

<Greg> Does "add" imply that all UA that have any toolbars need to let the user create new ones? Does "remove" imply uninstall rather than hide?

jr: concerned about wording. toolbars and items in them are two different things

mh: are there examples of existing apps that let you reorder items in a ribbon.

kp yes in office 2010 you can create new ribbons and reorder items within

scribe: can just drag item to new location. it has everything that the application can do not just existing menu items.

<Greg> Customize the Quick Access Toolbar, http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/help/customize-the-quick-access-toolbar-HA001234105.aspx

kp: automatic keyboard shortcuts for everything.

jr: we are saying if everybody had something like this we would be happy. we can reorder items, show, hide, and reposition.

<Greg> Even Office allowing you to replace the ribbon would fail 2.8.1 as written, as you cannot customize the items within the default ribbon.

kp: can we reorder the colors on a color palette the opens in a menu.

jr: what are we really looking for with the toolbars.
... a user customized set of commands

gl: remove the items you don't want, because of distraction or screen space

jr: not the toolbar is not the only problem, could be expanded to the entire chrome.
... the principle here, the user should be able to minimize the size of the chrome, and provide a user customizable palette of commands the the user requires.

gl: all the user to configure menus, or hide or show everything. or pick individual UI components.
... toolbars are already done. customizing everything is rarely done.

jr: everything should be minimizable.

js: propose we write or confirm an AA, then use IER to expand example and explanation rather than write a AAA

<Greg> Ideally, UA would allow user to customize all UA UI, and maximize document space. But ability to customize toolbars is low hanging fruit because it is already implemented in some browsers.

mh: the only browser that has anything close to this if FF and Office.

<Jan> JR: suggestions is two SCs...(1) Ability to minimize the chrome in order to maximize the rendered content area....(2) the ability to dhow/hide a one-touch user customizable control palette (e.g. toolbar)

mh: chome is much more limited.

<Greg> Chrome is thus quite deficient for users who rely on pointing devices, as they cannot make commands easily available.

jr: we took this out of ATAG for similar issues. the trouble with toolbars is they are defined differently, and will they read the def

Glossary entry for _Toolbars and similar containers_:

A collection of commonly used controls presented in a region that can be

configured or navigated separately from other regions. Such containers

may be docked or free-floating, permanent or transient, integral to the

application or add-ons. Variations are often called toolbars, palettes,

panels, or inspectors.

gl: is the definition too broad. is a message box a toolbar?

jr: in 2.8.1 ANY is a problem. do we really want add, remove, etc of ANY UI component

kp: problem with getting things back.

<Greg> What are examples of things that are like toolbars which we would not want or expect to be customizable? As Jan said, status bars, perhaps.

js: hearing that ANY is not a good thing.

jr: should we say 'at least one' rather than ANY

<Greg> Another approach would be to say that user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture.

kelly and Kim and Jim +1 to jr above

<Greg> ...or are always visible.

jr: YES
... this is the principle I was shooting for

<Greg> "The user can choose which commands are available via a single click or gesture, and which status displays are always visible."

mark and jan will play with the wording on 2.8

jr: seems to me to be 2 SCs, split them at the comma

mh: there is a way in chrome to add shortcut keys to installed extensions.

js: from mobi a11y standards, is the ability to change the position of a toolbar. for folks who are one handed to move toolbars on one side of device

jr: will take that into account.

close item 2

take up item 1

discuss UAAG Comment

<Greg> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2012OctDec/0025.html is Jim's mai of 2012-10-30 with comments from Thomas Sisson.

<jeanne> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-uaag2-comments/2012Oct/0000.html

gl: sometimes trying to make content accessible may render the content unusable.
... agree that the 'big hammer' of turning off style sheets is a last resort.

ja: there are OS controls and UA controls separate from rewriting CSS
... second paragraphs is poor design, and something that the user has to live with. We already have SC dealing with overriding scrollbar appearance.

gl UAAG has lots of SCs to allow the user to override many author errors.

mh: have seen examples of canvas where author is creating dialog boxes. font resizing or color if bitmapped text drawn by javascript. the UA does not know what the JS is doing.

gl: it would be nice if some search engine would allow you search by html element.

<Jan> http://builtwith.com/

<Jan> http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/WAI-ARIA

jr: builtwith.com indexing of constructs used to build webpages.

<Jan> http://trends.builtwith.com/docinfo/HTML-5-Specific-Tags

Jim will write a response to the comment

<Jan> http://trends.builtwith.com/topsites/WAI-ARIA

can talk to them and ask them to add various elements

rrsagent make minutes

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.137 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/11/08 19:39:56 $

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Found Scribe: jallan
Inferring ScribeNick: JAllan
Default Present: Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, kford, Jan, +1.609.734.aaaa, Kim_Patch, Markku
Present: Jeanne Jim_Allan Greg_Lowney kford Jan +1.609.734.aaaa Kim_Patch Markku
Regrets: simon
Found Date: 08 Nov 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/11/08-ua-minutes.html
People with action items: 

[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]