Indie UI Task Force Face to Face -- 02 Nov 2012

<janina> trackbot start meeting

<Ryladog> Scribe:Ryladog

GPII video - Cloud for All Overview -- Gottfried Zimmerman

<Gottfried> GPII video: http://gpii.net/node/108

GZ: I am happy and excited about IndieUI as it could be an integral part of GPII
... My presentation is about User Prefernces
... GPII is Global, No royalities, It is an infrasctucture - building streets not cars
... It needs the adoption by industry so that the cars can comeinto the street
... It is about storing User Settings/preference locally or in the cloud
... Cloud for All. Everything that involve UIs
... GPII is a global initiative
... Gregg Vanderheiden, Jim Tobias and other took it from NPII to GPII
... Raising the Floor International is promoting/hosting/organizing GPII - and Cloud for All is a Eurpeon project contributes to GPII. There are 27 partners
... The GPII video shows the goal of GP But now I want to talk about user needs, preferences
... ISO/IEC 24751-2:2008: Is currently working with the GPII effort to revise it
... W3C, ISO and IMS are all working on similar standards for Uses Needs
... None of the current standards address the CONTEXT -
... Zimmermann - Personalization Concepts in GPII
... Define and develop a registry of User Preferences
... defining property and values of devices for a registry for User Preferences and Contexts
... We would like feedback from Indie-UI because we want to harmonize
... We need a modern Security architecture and users need to be able see what is stored about them.
... Cloud4All started a year ago
... Cloud4All expected to end by Oct 2015

RS: Were you looking to do transformations on anyones content in the MatchMaker?

GZ: No. Matchmaker is meant to propose and suggest new ways to improve the user experince

<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about inferring medical / disability info - even to the point of being useful in diagnostics but scary privacy

Michael: If rousyou doctor knew about some of these issues, he could help you, but, from a Privacy perspective that could be dange

GZ: The MatchMaker has no idea of who you are
... Matchmaker will get anonymous sets from the preferences server

LH: I think that these ideas are external and out of scope for this working group
... Why are we spending so much time on these things out of scope issue?

GZ: I would agree it is mostly out of scope, but the user needs and contexts work done by Access4ALL, GPII and Cloud4All may be useful for IndieUI

AH: Indie UI can use a smaller set of user needs and events - and this can work for now. Longer term I thing that we want compatability of term

GZ: Let decide on a Core set and then we can go register them with GPII

<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to indicate this is a lofty, yet worthwhile goal, but also wanted to express concerns about applying this across personal devices, context/condition changes

AH: Secuirty challange is ovewhelming

JC: I think this is lofty - and therefore might be unsolvable
... or example, I thonk storing user pref is a great idea. But storing this in the cloud - I do not think will be doable. What if a bank kiosk and the sun hit the screen. There are so many conditions
... So many issues that cant be solved by an outside MatchMaker and the user may be frustrated
... There seems to be a great potential for confusion for the user if the Match Maker gets it wrong

GZ: I think you have kicked the features that are way down the pike. Current set is much simpler. It is ambitious. Some of it vendor already do, but we want to store across platforms

JC: On a smaller scale, on like machine, like ATMs, kiosks, etc - this concept has the best inroad
... Being able to request setting across devices may not be necessary

GZ: But the Matchmaker will not give the TV setting for an ATM

JC: Best to concentrate on public like devices - and less on personal devices

RS: I have some business needs to be addressed right now
... Our Business Analytic team does not understand the needs of the client.

<richardschwerdtfeger> ack

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S10:_Command_to_direct_a_media_player_to_pause_playing

<andy> scribe:andy

<richardschwerdtfeger> http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S13:_Command_to_the_media_player_to_toggle_rendering_captions

rich: toggling captions - do we use an event or throughout the context

could send an event directly or a property change that required an event

this may be superfliuous

tabled till browser ppl in the room

S14:

to increase the volume

increase/decrease the volume

can't be done with a preference

needs two events for increase and decrease

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

needs mute, mute-on and mute-off

could be one event with a parameter

need a new use case for mute

two variations a mute - a toggle and a mute-on and mute-off

needs mute-on/mutte off because say a television might be unmuted and the user doesn't realise as there is no sound at that momemt

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

for similar reasons to discussion of pause/play yesterday

next use case - command to zoom in - S16

returning to captions use case S13

if we have a property for captions do we need another event for that

jcraig:

keep caption event simple - on, off and toggle event

languages as a preference

AfA has similar like transcript for example

all dealt with as prefs, including priortiy

if we want

how is the user going to trigger mute

gottfried - could be multiple sounds

captions - event will be captions on, off, toggle

<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

need volume increase and decrease as well

back to S16

do we need vibration or not?

css have discussed vibrate

some devices can do it

why would the web app need to know ?

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

web app content might wish to trigger that

vibration is not an event because its an output

next use case - panning

jcraig - we want panning not in 8 directions but in 360 degrees

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

next use case - homing in - S18

jcraig - need point-of-regard change request

rich - could have next, prev, home etc. as params

rich - these are logical, the directional one may need a separate event

jcraig - these are navigation, the others are directional-navigation

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

Use case S20

grab an object

rich - assuming its already selected

jcraig - aria drag and drop is not really drag and drop

jcraig - the web app should not have to manage this

jcraig - having separate event that work outside the html context isn't the right way to do it

rich - does html have an event for grabbing as part of drop

jcraig - need explicit drag targets and drop targets - there is nothing in AT to indicate these

shepazu - there is impetus to work on d and d 2 - there is also clipboard operations (which are similar)

jcraig - elements need to declare themselves as drag targets and drop targets rather than using keyboard methods - should be copy and paste

shepazu explains d and d inside and between apps

shepazu - we are conflicting events and requests to do something

jcraig - we are calling them events but each is named as a request because they are notifications

jcraig - we are currently doing d and d as cut/copy and paste

rich - we never know on a desktop whether something is going to be grabbed or not

rich - after a grab a drop could be a paste, it could cause an execution and other things

jcraig - its all determined by the context at the stop site

shepazu - confusion UI d and d with the notion of indicating some function

rich - I need to be able to identify what are the objects on the screen that are grabbable

janina - if html are going to redo d and d then we need to do something with this

MichaelC - need to create an issue in their tracker ?

<jcraig> ISSUE: Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets)

<trackbot> Created ISSUE-7 - Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/7/edit .

rich explains with the aid of a whiteboard diagram

<sangwhan> Scribenick: Gottfried

Gottfried: For now, stick to the use cases. There may be extensions in the next version.

Rich: We should circulate the drag&drop use case by HTML5. Obviously, we have a terminology conflict between WAI-ARIA and HTML5.

<sangwhan> Scribe: Gottfried

S22: http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S22:_Start_discontinuous_multi-slection_within_a_UI_object

Rich: Not working well for mobile solutions.

Lachlan: We should look how these devices handle keys for native control.

Rich: You need to know that the object is multi-selectable. And that it is possible to select discontinuous items.

Lachlan: iOS presents a separate list with each item selectable.
... A custom event would probably work with multiple click events.
... We don't need to consider this as a use case for us.

Andy: What if it is not visual?

Lachlan: Same as with other assistance.
... Typical: email application. Select all, invert selection, etc. are just links. You usually don't see a simulation of a native control in the Web.

Rich: Do we need a command for selection?

Lachlan: Click event should suffice.

Rich: Looking at Yahoo email application. It would be easier to navigate over the items, and for each item be able to send a select event.
... Looks like this row is focusable, and you can just send a select event.

Lachlan: How does a user trigger this action, in a device-independent way?
... If using device-dependent things, that limits its use.

James: Is there a use case that allows the user to check an arbitrary check box, e.g. by speech?
... "Select this"

Rich: If there is something that is checkable, why not having a check event for this?

Andy: This is similar to drag&drop, solve it by marking?

James: But mark should not deselect a previous one.
... Do we need a property that says that it is multi-markable?

Lachlan: How to trigger this special event?

James: Click the first one, and hold the shift key, moving down.
... That could fire a mark on each one in the sequence.

Lachlan: If the checkboxes are in the same group, maybe this could be built into the platform.

Andy: What about "add to previous selection"?

Lachlan: If it behaves like a native checkbox, it could work.

James: Could bubble up, and be handled by the app.

Lachlan: role="checkbox"

Rich: You could have 5 checkboxes.

James: For example in CSS: font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif
... role="switch checkbox"
... checkbox as a fall-back for switch
... We could also have "slider spinbutton"
... action attribute, listing possible requests: actions="valuechange"
... actions="mark"

Rich: We can have a list of actions

Lachlan: This as markup in HTML5?

James: Could be aria-actions
... Could be a direct mapping from ARIA
... Mark event would be canceled and thus tell the AT that it was perceived.
... An author may not find a mapping to a role, but may know how to respond to some events. That's what @actions [could be] for (whether @aria-actions, @ui-actions, etc. native HTML or SVG @actions, whatever).

Lachlan: If we want to make it easy for web developers to allow range selections, the browser could interpret the user's action.
... Browser could send select-range request to the Web app.

James: How to do this on a custom element?

Lachlan: If it has role assigned, would work.

James: How would the application learn about the user action? Multiple selection events or one select-range?
... Wouldn't it be better to fire mark-requests first?

Lachlan: Range-request - could work as a single event

James: Could be select-all-from-last-mark event

Rich: User agents should not have to be so smart to predict what the application is going to do
... Like this solution
... The user knows that they want to mark a range.

ack

Andy: So this is separate from normal selection?
... Is the range from previous selection or previous mark?

James: It's from the previous mark

Rich: So do we need multiple events?

James: It can be one event with different properties
... At first, we thought that independent events would block standard events, but that's not kept now.
... Fire the intentional event just prior to the up event of a key. The author needs to be able to react to the IndieUI event before receiving the last key event in a series.

Rich: We could also use this to mark a range of text.

Lachlan: That's handled by the native selection process.

James: Yes, with contenteditable

Lachlan: Could an implementation natively fire subsequent select events in order to perform a range-select?

James: That would break the expected default actions for a role.

Rich: This is going to be much cleaner. No modifier keys etc.

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S24:_Save_selection_and_stop_the_multi-selection_process_within_a_UI_object

Rich: Who is going to do the copying?

James: We don't need this.

Gottfried: Just tab out. Would automatically be saved.

Rich: Is "clear prior selection" a parameter for mark?

James: You would just select something else.
... mark event with the following property: retain (the previous selection)

Lachlan: That is the standard behavior for checkboxes anyway.

James: The other property is: include-range-from-last-mark

Lachlan: The browser may not know whether there was a last selection, and just send the retain=true.

http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Use_Cases_and_Requirements#S25:_Stop_and_clear_the_multi-selection_process_within_a_UI_object

Rich: We don't need S25, right?

agreement

<jcraig> maybe a retainMarks property (like Cmd+Click) and fromLast (like Shift+Click)

<jcraig> though I dislike the name "fromLast"

<Lachy> RRSAgent: help

<jcraig> I believe 26-29 covered by valueChangeRequest on each representative UI element, maybe a sizeChangeRequest variant?

<jcraig> lh: shift modifier on mouse drags constrains proportions and lock centerpoint modifier

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

<jcraig> perhaps a moveRequest? almost identical to a map pan but with opposite direction.

<jcraig> katie: may overlap with scroll views

<jcraig> jc: except scroll views have limits, and maps are like a scroll view with no limits

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

<jcraig> I think 31 and 32 are covered by expand/collapse request events, which are already in the spec.

<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].

<andy> USe case S33

<andy> closeness indication - is this the same as hover ?

<andy> unsure the purpose of this use case

<andy> more infer required

<andy> Use case 34:

<andy> 34 is mouse out

<andy> 34 to the end are not defined enough to address

<andy> test

<richardschwerdtfeger> Zakim bye

- DRAFT -

Indie UI Task Force Face to Face

02 Nov 2012

Attendees

Contents

GPII video - Cloud for All Overview -- Gottfried Zimmerman

Summary of Action Items

Scribe.perl diagnostic output