See also: IRC log
<janina> trackbot start meeting
<Gottfried> GPII video: http://gpii.net/node/108
GZ: I am happy and excited about
IndieUI as it could be an integral part of GPII
... My presentation is about User Prefernces
... GPII is Global, No royalities, It is an infrasctucture - building streets not cars
... It needs the adoption by industry so that the cars can comeinto the street
... It is about storing User Settings/preference locally or in the cloud
... Cloud for All. Everything that involve UIs
... GPII is a global initiative
... Gregg Vanderheiden, Jim Tobias and other took it from NPII to GPII
... Raising the Floor International is promoting/hosting/organizing GPII - and Cloud for All is a Eurpeon project contributes to GPII. There are 27 partners
... The GPII video shows the goal of GP But now I want to talk about user needs, preferences
... ISO/IEC 24751-2:2008: Is currently working with the GPII effort to revise it
... W3C, ISO and IMS are all working on similar standards for Uses Needs
... None of the current standards address the CONTEXT -
... Zimmermann - Personalization Concepts in GPII
... Define and develop a registry of User Preferences
... defining property and values of devices for a registry for User Preferences and Contexts
... We would like feedback from Indie-UI because we want to harmonize
... We need a modern Security architecture and users need to be able see what is stored about them.
... Cloud4All started a year ago
... Cloud4All expected to end by Oct 2015
RS: Were you looking to do transformations on anyones content in the MatchMaker?
GZ: No. Matchmaker is meant to propose and suggest new ways to improve the user experince
<Zakim> MichaelC, you wanted to talk about inferring medical / disability info - even to the point of being useful in diagnostics but scary privacy
Michael: If rousyou doctor knew about some of these issues, he could help you, but, from a Privacy perspective that could be dange
GZ: The MatchMaker has no idea of
who you are
... Matchmaker will get anonymous sets from the preferences server
LH: I think that these ideas are
external and out of scope for this working group
... Why are we spending so much time on these things out of scope issue?
GZ: I would agree it is mostly out of scope, but the user needs and contexts work done by Access4ALL, GPII and Cloud4All may be useful for IndieUI
AH: Indie UI can use a smaller set of user needs and events - and this can work for now. Longer term I thing that we want compatability of term
GZ: Let decide on a Core set and then we can go register them with GPII
<Zakim> jcraig, you wanted to indicate this is a lofty, yet worthwhile goal, but also wanted to express concerns about applying this across personal devices, context/condition changes
AH: Secuirty challange is ovewhelming
JC: I think this is lofty - and
therefore might be unsolvable
... or example, I thonk storing user pref is a great idea. But storing this in the cloud - I do not think will be doable. What if a bank kiosk and the sun hit the screen. There are so many conditions
... So many issues that cant be solved by an outside MatchMaker and the user may be frustrated
... There seems to be a great potential for confusion for the user if the Match Maker gets it wrong
GZ: I think you have kicked the features that are way down the pike. Current set is much simpler. It is ambitious. Some of it vendor already do, but we want to store across platforms
JC: On a smaller scale, on like
machine, like ATMs, kiosks, etc - this concept has the best
... Being able to request setting across devices may not be necessary
GZ: But the Matchmaker will not give the TV setting for an ATM
JC: Best to concentrate on public like devices - and less on personal devices
RS: I have some business needs to
be addressed right now
... Our Business Analytic team does not understand the needs of the client.
rich: toggling captions - do we use an event or throughout the context
could send an event directly or a property change that required an event
this may be superfliuous
tabled till browser ppl in the room
to increase the volume
increase/decrease the volume
can't be done with a preference
needs two events for increase and decrease
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-19 - Add RequestVolumeIncrease and RequestVolumeDecrease events [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
needs mute, mute-on and mute-off
could be one event with a parameter
need a new use case for mute
two variations a mute - a toggle and a mute-on and mute-off
needs mute-on/mutte off because say a television might be unmuted and the user doesn't realise as there is no sound at that momemt
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-20 - Add RequestMute event with three values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
for similar reasons to discussion of pause/play yesterday
next use case - command to zoom in - S16
returning to captions use case S13
if we have a property for captions do we need another event for that
keep caption event simple - on, off and toggle event
languages as a preference
AfA has similar like transcript for example
all dealt with as prefs, including priortiy
if we want
how is the user going to trigger mute
gottfried - could be multiple sounds
captions - event will be captions on, off, toggle
<richardschwerdtfeger> ACTION: jcraig add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-21 - Add RequestCaption with property values (on, off, toggle) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
need volume increase and decrease as well
back to S16
do we need vibration or not?
css have discussed vibrate
some devices can do it
why would the web app need to know ?
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-22 - Add zoomRequest with property zoomIn, zoomOut, or specific zoomLevel? [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
web app content might wish to trigger that
vibration is not an event because its an output
next use case - panning
jcraig - we want panning not in 8 directions but in 360 degrees
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Add panRequest (may already be in) with pan direction and distance [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
next use case - homing in - S18
jcraig - need point-of-regard change request
rich - could have next, prev, home etc. as params
rich - these are logical, the directional one may need a separate event
jcraig - these are navigation, the others are directional-navigation
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Work in point-of-regard change request(s) with both 2-dimensional (up, down, left, right) and linear (home, end, pageup, pagedown, next previous, etc) [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
Use case S20
grab an object
rich - assuming its already selected
jcraig - aria drag and drop is not really drag and drop
jcraig - the web app should not have to manage this
jcraig - having separate event that work outside the html context isn't the right way to do it
rich - does html have an event for grabbing as part of drop
jcraig - need explicit drag targets and drop targets - there is nothing in AT to indicate these
shepazu - there is impetus to work on d and d 2 - there is also clipboard operations (which are similar)
jcraig - elements need to declare themselves as drag targets and drop targets rather than using keyboard methods - should be copy and paste
shepazu explains d and d inside and between apps
shepazu - we are conflicting events and requests to do something
jcraig - we are calling them events but each is named as a request because they are notifications
jcraig - we are currently doing d and d as cut/copy and paste
rich - we never know on a desktop whether something is going to be grabbed or not
rich - after a grab a drop could be a paste, it could cause an execution and other things
jcraig - its all determined by the context at the stop site
shepazu - confusion UI d and d with the notion of indicating some function
rich - I need to be able to identify what are the objects on the screen that are grabbable
janina - if html are going to redo d and d then we need to do something with this
MichaelC - need to create an issue in their tracker ?
<jcraig> ISSUE: Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets)
<trackbot> Created ISSUE-7 - Discuss drag/drop with PF and HTML (need cut/copy markers and well as drop targets) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/track/issues/7/edit .
rich explains with the aid of a whiteboard diagram
<sangwhan> Scribenick: Gottfried
Gottfried: For now, stick to the use cases. There may be extensions in the next version.
Rich: We should circulate the drag&drop use case by HTML5. Obviously, we have a terminology conflict between WAI-ARIA and HTML5.
<sangwhan> Scribe: Gottfried
Rich: Not working well for mobile solutions.
Lachlan: We should look how these devices handle keys for native control.
Rich: You need to know that the object is multi-selectable. And that it is possible to select discontinuous items.
Lachlan: iOS presents a separate
list with each item selectable.
... A custom event would probably work with multiple click events.
... We don't need to consider this as a use case for us.
Andy: What if it is not visual?
Lachlan: Same as with other
... Typical: email application. Select all, invert selection, etc. are just links. You usually don't see a simulation of a native control in the Web.
Rich: Do we need a command for selection?
Lachlan: Click event should suffice.
Rich: Looking at Yahoo email
application. It would be easier to navigate over the items, and
for each item be able to send a select event.
... Looks like this row is focusable, and you can just send a select event.
Lachlan: How does a user trigger
this action, in a device-independent way?
... If using device-dependent things, that limits its use.
James: Is there a use case that
allows the user to check an arbitrary check box, e.g. by
... "Select this"
Rich: If there is something that is checkable, why not having a check event for this?
Andy: This is similar to drag&drop, solve it by marking?
James: But mark should not
deselect a previous one.
... Do we need a property that says that it is multi-markable?
Lachlan: How to trigger this special event?
James: Click the first one, and
hold the shift key, moving down.
... That could fire a mark on each one in the sequence.
Lachlan: If the checkboxes are in the same group, maybe this could be built into the platform.
Andy: What about "add to previous selection"?
Lachlan: If it behaves like a native checkbox, it could work.
James: Could bubble up, and be handled by the app.
Rich: You could have 5 checkboxes.
James: For example in CSS:
font-family: Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif
... role="switch checkbox"
... checkbox as a fall-back for switch
... We could also have "slider spinbutton"
... action attribute, listing possible requests: actions="valuechange"
Rich: We can have a list of actions
Lachlan: This as markup in HTML5?
James: Could be
... Could be a direct mapping from ARIA
... Mark event would be canceled and thus tell the AT that it was perceived.
... An author may not find a mapping to a role, but may know how to respond to some events. That's what @actions [could be] for (whether @aria-actions, @ui-actions, etc. native HTML or SVG @actions, whatever).
Lachlan: If we want to make it
easy for web developers to allow range selections, the browser
could interpret the user's action.
... Browser could send select-range request to the Web app.
James: How to do this on a custom element?
Lachlan: If it has role assigned, would work.
James: How would the application
learn about the user action? Multiple selection events or one
... Wouldn't it be better to fire mark-requests first?
Lachlan: Range-request - could work as a single event
James: Could be select-all-from-last-mark event
Rich: User agents should not have
to be so smart to predict what the application is going to
... Like this solution
... The user knows that they want to mark a range.
Andy: So this is separate from
... Is the range from previous selection or previous mark?
James: It's from the previous mark
Rich: So do we need multiple events?
James: It can be one event with
... At first, we thought that independent events would block standard events, but that's not kept now.
... Fire the intentional event just prior to the up event of a key. The author needs to be able to react to the IndieUI event before receiving the last key event in a series.
Rich: We could also use this to mark a range of text.
Lachlan: That's handled by the native selection process.
James: Yes, with contenteditable
Lachlan: Could an implementation natively fire subsequent select events in order to perform a range-select?
James: That would break the expected default actions for a role.
Rich: This is going to be much cleaner. No modifier keys etc.
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-25 - Add markRequest with variant properties indicating "mark in addition to" and "include range from last mark", similar to the table selection interpretation of shift+click and cmd+click, or shift+ctrl+click on different implementations. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
Rich: Who is going to do the copying?
James: We don't need this.
Gottfried: Just tab out. Would automatically be saved.
Rich: Is "clear prior selection" a parameter for mark?
James: You would just select
... mark event with the following property: retain (the previous selection)
Lachlan: That is the standard behavior for checkboxes anyway.
James: The other property is: include-range-from-last-mark
Lachlan: The browser may not know whether there was a last selection, and just send the retain=true.
Rich: We don't need S25, right?
<jcraig> maybe a retainMarks property (like Cmd+Click) and fromLast (like Shift+Click)
<jcraig> though I dislike the name "fromLast"
<Lachy> RRSAgent: help
<jcraig> I believe 26-29 covered by valueChangeRequest on each representative UI element, maybe a sizeChangeRequest variant?
<jcraig> lh: shift modifier on mouse drags constrains proportions and lock centerpoint modifier
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-26 - Research UI manipulation of size in graphics programs; may need a sizeChangeRequest event with an [x,y,(z?)] values and event properties "constrain proportions" and "lock centerpoint" [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
<jcraig> perhaps a moveRequest? almost identical to a map pan but with opposite direction.
<jcraig> katie: may overlap with scroll views
<jcraig> jc: except scroll views have limits, and maps are like a scroll view with no limits
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-27 - Consider moveRequest in the context of scrollRequest and panRequest [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
<jcraig> I think 31 and 32 are covered by expand/collapse request events, which are already in the spec.
<jcraig> ACTION: jcraig to consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-28 - Consider show/hide details as expand/collpse or possibly ???/dismiss. [on James Craig - due 2012-11-09].
<andy> USe case S33
<andy> closeness indication - is this the same as hover ?
<andy> unsure the purpose of this use case
<andy> more infer required
<andy> Use case 34:
<andy> 34 is mouse out
<andy> 34 to the end are not defined enough to address
<richardschwerdtfeger> Zakim bye
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/Loyalty/royalities/ Succeeded: s/might be muted/might be unmuted/ Succeeded: s/scraig/jcraig/ Succeeded: s/shoe/shepazu/ Succeeded: s/sirte/site/ Succeeded: s/action/actions/ Succeeded: s/James/Andy/ Succeeded: s/@actions is for/@actions [could be] for (whether @aria-actions, @ui-actions, etc. native HTML or SVG @actions, whatever)/ Succeeded: s/Yes/agreement/ Succeeded: s/option/lock centerpoint/ Found Scribe: Ryladog Inferring ScribeNick: Ryladog Found Scribe: andy Inferring ScribeNick: andy Found ScribeNick: Gottfried Found Scribe: Gottfried Inferring ScribeNick: Gottfried Scribes: Ryladog, andy, Gottfried ScribeNicks: Gottfried, Ryladog, andy WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: AH Andy David_MacD_Lenovo GZ Gottfried ISSUE James Joshue108 Judy Judy_clone LH Lachlan Lachy Michael MichaelC RS Ryladog S14 S22 Scribenick SimonSapin confuse gaiaphj indie-ui janina jc jcraig jkiss joined katie kiosk-type left likely machines public recommendation rich richardschwerdtfeger sangwhan sangwhan1 shepazu smaug smaug_ stick to tpacbot trackbot users wilhelm You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Got date from IRC log name: 02 Nov 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/11/02-indie-ui-minutes.html People with action items: jcraig[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]