Web Events WG Voice Conference

07 Aug 2012


See also: IRC log


Art_Barstow, Cathy_Chan, Scott_González, Rick_Byers, Matt_Brubeck, Doug_Schepers


<scribe> Scribe: Art

<scribe> ScribeNick: ArtB

Date: 7 August 2012

<mbrubeck> //me having dialing trouble

Tweak Agenda

AB: a draft agenda was sent to the list on August 6 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0005.html. I'm going to move the IndieUI TF status to announcements. Any change requests?


AB: the Touch Events PAG is now closed http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0004.html. The PAG recommended the WG continue with Touch Events v1 spec "as is".
... I want to mention that Matt Brubeck's input was invaluable to the PAG so a Very Big Thanks to Matt and thanks to Doug too for his work on the PAG!
... I appreciate their efforts!
... any questions/comments about the PAG?
... 2nd announcement: the IndieUI Task Force http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/IUITF has now had several calls http://www.w3.org/WAI/IndieUI/wiki/Minutes.
... the Call for Proposals ended July 15 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Jun/0012.html. Apple submitted an input for the Events spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2010JulSep/att-0106/UserInterfaceIndependence.html. IBM and others submitted an input for the Context spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-indie-ui/2012Aug/0000.html.

<smaug_> argh, I can't join the call today

AB: it would be really good to get broader participation from others, especially browser vendors, and in particular Google, Mozilla and Opera.

RB: I've paying some attention

… want to get the Android team to participate

… there is some confusion re what scenarios are A11Y specific versus more general scenarios

MB: I haven't followed it yet

… I expect someone to follow when they have some time

AB: thanks for the updates

RB: would like to get something like gesture events

… I think there are some important scenarios that are missing from Apple's input

… Just looking at Apple's input, seems like it is more about A11Y

… If maninpuating using touch with scaling, then we will want to be involved

DS: the TF is coming from an accessibility perspective

… dealing with browser vendors and APIs isn't their "strong suit"

… they can learn from us and browser vendors and we can learn from them too

… Would be really valuable to have you (Rick) participate

… and start with UCs

RB: it's good to see a concrete proposal

… we will try to add our scenarios

AB: that would be great Rick
... if you want to join the TF, please contact Doug

Getting TE v1 spec out of Candidate Recommendation (CR)

AB: a primary task now is to get TEv1 out of CR http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/v1/touchevents.html and that means we need to complete the test suite and to get at least two implementations to pass each test.
... first, what is the Implementation status?

RB: I believe Chrome on Windows and Chrome on ChromeOS have experimental builds

… Chrome on Android has supported it for a long time

… There could be some minor diffs

… but the intent is to be completely compliant to the spec (v1)

… If there are diffs, I would consider them as bugs

MB: the intent of v1 was to specifify what has actually be implemented

… if there were places where implementations differed, we intentionally did not specify that

… I haven't run our implementation against the spec recently

… but our intent is to comply with the spec and to change our impl to match the spec (if needed)

<rbyers> Details on Chrome support for touch events:

AB: did Opera implement TEv1?

<rbyers> Current builds on Windows and ChromeOS have touch support behind a flag (about:flags - 'Enable touch events'

MB: yes, Opera Mobile implements it

Test suite

AB: the TE spec's test suite is http://w3c-test.org/webevents/tests/touch-events-v1/. We have submissions from Mozilla only.

<rbyers> On by default in Chrome 22 - going to beta mid-aug

AB: we also have the Touch events test assertions tables that Cathy created http://www.w3.org/2010/webevents/wiki/TestAssertions. We discussed this data on January 17 http://www.w3.org/2012/01/17-webevents-minutes.html#item03.
... so there are questions about what needs to be done; who is going to do the work, etc.

DS: we are having a similar discussion in the Audio WG

… W3C is trying to do more about testing e.g. sharing resources across WGs

AB: are you hiring someone?

DS: yes, we are going to hire someone

… in the meantime, I can get PLH or MikeSmith to come and talk about the testing

MB: we added some tests to tip but did not merge them to v1 branch

… I can take an action to update the v1 branch

<scribe> ACTION: brubeck Merge touch event tests to v1 branch [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-94 - Merge touch event tests to v1 branch [on Matt Brubeck - due 2012-08-14].

RB: Matt, do you share tests between Mozilla and the WG's tests?

MB: the W3C tests are different than our tests

RB: Webkit has some related tests that could be used

MB: Webkit and Gecko tests aren't really focused on spec compliance

DS: we would like to change that i.e. to make sure our tests are directly usable by implementers

MB: we do import 3rd party test suites into our infrastructure

… f.ex. we do that with WebGL tests

… it should be possible to get W3C testharness tests to be ported to Gecko infra

… The tests we have were created as I wrote the spec

RB: wonder if some abstraction layer would be useful here

… Can we get one automated test?

… If so, then I can see if I can make it work in our test infra

DS: would like to make the tests automated

AB: in other WGs (e.g. WebApps and HTML), a "Test Facilitator" has been designated and they are "stewards" for the test suite. Any volunteers for that role?

MB: I have taking that role so I can do that

AB: thanks very much Matt!

MB: I think we have one test that passes on FF and Opera but fails on Webkit

RB: please send me the details

MB: I think we also have a test that only applies to v2

… so I need to fix that

… I just ran the tests we do have on 4 browser ;)

AB: so do we have a rough idea about how many more tests are needed?

DS: I suspect we only have a very small coverage right now

… we can look at what other groups are doing

… must go beyond feature testing

MB: we have one test file (single touch) that has 17 tests and about 30 test assertions

… we have a multi-touch test file too and it has several tests with more assertions

… I suspect we are about 25% of the way there

AB: given the v1 spec is mostly about documenting history, perhaps it would be acceptable to create a "minimalist" test suite

DS: I wouldn't object to that

RB: I can understand that but there is some risk

… we don't want implementations to miss important cases

… and thus have interop problems

… Touch is important now and will continue to be even more important

… so we need to do a good job with the test suite.

DS: as always, we need to also consider resource constraints

RB: agree there is a tradeoff

… If v2 is too slow to come out, the web will move on without us

DS: would like to get Microsoft to participate in v2

RB: yes, would like to get them to help with v2 too

<mbrubeck> Ahh, the identifiedTouch method is implemented by Gecko and by BlackBerry OS 6.0 (but not by Safari, Chrome, Opera, or Android)

DS: I have talked to Microsoft about participating

AB: I have talked to them too

DS: we need to review their work for v2

MB: yes agree but we need to be careful about IP issues

RB: would be nice to know why Microsoft won't participate

… could be lots of reasons

[ digression about W3C Patent Policy and licensing … ]

SG: the PointerEvents versus TouchEvents already creates a fork in the web

… If we could get Msft to participate, that would be great

… Otherwise, we can use a shim to normalize

DS: I can approach Microsoft again if people think that would be useful

RB: yes, I think so

AB: me too

RB: we have looked at PointerEvents

… like it more than TouchEvents

SG: yes, that's a good idea (for Doug to talk to Microsoft)

<Cathy> +1

… If there is a shim, it would be easier to write once for PointerEvents rather than twice for TouchEvents

<mbrubeck> Yes, I think we should gather consensus and present it to Microsoft as an argument in favor of participation

<scribe> ACTION: doug Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-95 - Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 [on Doug Schepers - due 2012-08-14].

RB: the PointerEvents model includes Gesture events

… can this WG go there i.e. gesture events?

DS: that raises some concerns for me

SG: Microsoft just changed their gestures

… added a new touch action

… can do custom gestures

… when I say "just changed", I mean June


AB: we have a couple of topics we couldn't get to
... what about TEv1 tests?

MB: the action I took earlier isn't needed but I could take an action to determine what needs to be done

RB: I can take a look at the test suite

AB: if you have any comments Rick, please send them to the list

<mbrubeck> ACTION: mbrubeck Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-96 - Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. [on Matt Brubeck - due 2012-08-14].

AB: meeting adjourned

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: brubeck Merge touch event tests to v1 branch [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: doug Talk to Microsoft about PointerEvents vis-a-vis TouchEvents v2 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: mbrubeck Make a list of remaining work needed to complete the v1 test suite. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2012/08/07 16:10:50 $

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Succeeded: s/minor tests/minor diffs/
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Found Scribe: Art
Found ScribeNick: ArtB
Default Present: +1.519.513.aabb, +358.718.00aacc, Cathy, scott_gonzalez, +1.206.792.aadd, mbrubeck, rbyers, ArtB, Doug_Schepers
Present: Art_Barstow Cathy_Chan Scott_González Rick_Byers Matt_Brubeck Doug_Schepers
Regrets: Olli_Pettay
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webevents/2012JulSep/0005.html
Found Date: 07 Aug 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/08/07-webevents-minutes.html
People with action items: brubeck doug event mbrubeck merge talk tests touch

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