<trackbot> Date: 25 July 2012

<ericP> Guus: there's usually a helpful crowd

<ericP> ... and some more

<ericP> sandro: "usually"

minutes from last meeting need to be cleaned up

sandro: nicknames should be put in tracker

<sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/users

minutes are accepted

no pending action items

<mlnt> gkellogg: just did it, thanks

open actions stay as they stand

next telcon on August 8

next f2f in Lyon on Oct 29-30

for registration information see: http://www.w3.org/2012/10/TPAC/

sandro: recommends staying at least on Wednesday and possibly Thursday and Friday to join other groups as observers although rooms are very small and it's not clear how many observers can be accommodated

arnaud: are we planning on meeting with other groups?

guus: not sure yet

sandro: one possibility would be with sparql wg, another would be linked data platform

guus: one obvious topic would be json-ld
... to be continued

<PatH> i must have missed this. link to email?

guus: Provenance LC - chair asked specific questions and we need volunteers to try and answer them

http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jul/0043.html

<gkellogg> s/cuus/guus/

path volunteers

<scribe> ACTION: PatH to start discussion on answer the questions on Provenance LC [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-178 - Start discussion on answer the questions on Provenance LC [on Patrick Hayes - due 2012-08-01].

s/anwer/answering/

guus: would be nice to have volunteers to review the spec
... none for now

Turtle LC

request from TimBL for addition

<gavinc> gavinc: a number of small bugs, that are resolved in the ED but not sure how to resolve in LC

guus: we have not raised issues yet, have we?

gavinc: some are already solved and not worth recording as issues

guus: turtle prefixes?

<ericP> "a:b:c" was ambiguous

gavinc: was a bug in the grammar, regarding use of colon, that is now resolved in editor's draft

sandro: concern some people may think that's too big a change after LC but that'd be silly

gavinc: agreed

<ericP> if we change tests, do we go back to LC?

<gavinc> I was told NO

<sandro> no.

<gavinc> That tests were NOT part of the LC

guus: TimBL's request should be entered as an issue

<sandro> can we be more clear about the test cases?

gavinc: regarding inverse property, would like to have a strawpoll from the group to find out whether people are interested

<ericP> <mailto:bob@example.com> is foaf:mbox of <http://bob.example/#me> .

gavinc: if people are interested, will then figure out a proposal

<PatH> +1 from me

<gkellogg> +1 from me

<yvesr> +1 from me

<sandro> +1 syntax for inverse arcs, prefered syntax for me is ^ I think.

<mlnt> +1

<cygri> +1

<yvesr> (although there is a strong case to use SPARQL-like syntax for that)

<Souri> +0.5 from me

<ericP> +1 to sandro's punctuation ammedment

<MacTed> +1

<gavinc> 0

<PatH> agree about the english part

<SteveH> +0.5 to ^, -0.5 for pseudo english

<gkellogg> what about implications for literal as subject?

<PatH> its very handy in rdfa

<ericP> i think the sayntax has to fit in a whole in the SPARQL punctuation

<Souri> I prefer the inverse syntax ( ^p) over "is .. of"

gavinc: we need to liaise with sparql wg

gavinc will work on a proposal

<PatH> <wave>danbri</wave>

<sandro> ^elt InversePath Inverse path (object to subject). -- from http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#pp-language

<ericP> sandro, have you looked for grammar which doesn't conflict with SPARQL?

<danbri> Re "is ... of", per rdf-comments thread, I'd support a punctuation-based notation if it were added to Turtle _and_ SPARQL. But let's not have pseudo-English...

<danbri> (and I don't see any strong implications for literal as subject)

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/

sandro asked about status of test cases

ericP: done some work on them but not aware of test cases being normative

sandro: the URL is really bad, would need a note indicating this is a proposal

ericp: we could fix them

<gkellogg> In the Microdata to RDF spec, we reference them non-nomatively in an appendix

<gkellogg> http://www.w3.org/TR/microdata-rdf/#testing

sandro: need to be fixed for CR

gavinc: 4 or 5 are broken with regard to the new syntax

ericp: fix them or put a big warning on them?

sandro: this should never have been published as is, we aren't allowed to change them now
... was the publication agreed by the group?

gavinc: no

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests/base1.ttl

sandro: there is no commentary about the status of these tests

sandro will ask permission to add a note stating these have not been approved by the WG yet

<sandro> ACTION: sandro try to get permission to put a box on http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests explaining that these tests have not been approved [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-179 - Try to get permission to put a box on http://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/tests explaining that these tests have not been approved [on Sandro Hawke - due 2012-08-01].

<ericP> "Bob" ^foaf:name <http://bob.example/#me> .

<ericP> <http://bob.example/#me> ^foaf:bogusName "Bob" .

<PatH> there are going to be people who want this flexibility in any case.

gkellogg: re: inverse property, not sure it's worth ensuring the syntax prevents not valid rdf

sandro: this will be controversial

guus: moving on to JSON-LD

<danbri> (syntax rules can never protect against crappy data; for everything we rule out, someone'll find another way to screw up)

<PatH> +1 danbri. And some of that crap is useful.

gkellogg: group is discussing several requests they have received

<gkellogg> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2012Jul/0040.html

<sandro> gkellogg: we're thinking about a mechanism for macro expansion as part of parsing.

<mlnt> http://json-ld.org/minutes/2012-07-24/

sandro: seems like you're reinventing a rule mechanism

gkellogg: most of the expansion mechanism is in the json domain, doesn't affect the rdf one
... encourages people to read the minutes and participate in the discussion if they are interested

sandro: interested but doens't have time to participate, please, take my comment seriously

gkellogg: ok

<Zakim> sandro, you wanted to say gosh I wish this wasn't considered a SYNTAX issue :-(

<sandro> sandro: PLEASE don't create a new rule mechanism that's json-specific

<mlnt> link to the issue Gregg is currently talking about: https://github.com/json-ld/json-ld.org/issues/146

<mlnt> e.g. "position": ["18.324235", "-36.4387934"]

guus: haven't seen any comments on the mailing list
... need you to pass along issues sent to the community list

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%22Bob%22+^foaf%3Aname+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+.%0D%0A%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+^foaf%3Aknows+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fsue.example%2F%23me%3E+.%0D%0A&action=validate+text

guus: any other agenda item?

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E+^foaf%3AbogusName+%22Bob%22+.&action=validate+text

<ericP> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A?lang=perl&text=%22Bob%22+foaf%3AbogusName+%3Chttp%3A%2F%2Fbob.example%2F%23me%3E++.&action=validate+text

guus: meeting adjourned

<PatH> see yall.

I need to jump to another call, I leave it to you guys to do your magic to generate the minutes (hopefully not too crappy ;-)

<gavinc> http://www.w3.org/2005/01/yacker/uploads/A/bnf?lang=perl

<ericP> -[6] triples ::= subject predicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?

<ericP> +[6] triples ::= subject predicateObjectList | literal inversePredicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList? [7] predicateObjectList ::= verb objectList (';' verb objectList)* ';'?

<Guus> trackbot, draft minutes

<trackbot> Sorry, Guus, I don't understand 'trackbot, draft minutes'. Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc for help

<ericP> +[7b] inversePredicateObjectList ::= inverseVerb subjectList (';' inverseVerb subjectList)* ';'? [8] objectList ::= object (',' object)*

<ericP> +[8a] subjectList ::= subject (',' subject)* [9] verb ::= predicate | 'a'

<ericP> +[9a] inverseVerb ::= '^' (predicate | 'a')

<ericP> -[6] triples ::= subject predicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?

<ericP> +[6] triples ::= subject predicateObjectList | literal inversePredicateObjectList | blankNodePropertyList predicateObjectList?

<ericP> +[7b] inversePredicateObjectList ::= inverseVerb subjectList (';' inverseVerb subjectList)* ';'?

<ericP> +[8a] subjectList ::= subject (',' subject)*

<ericP> +[9a] inverseVerb ::= '^' (predicate | 'a')

<Guus> trackbot, end meeting

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

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Found Date: 25 Jul 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/07/25-rdf-wg-minutes.html
People with action items: path sandro try

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<dbooth> Topic: Review of Amy's report