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<trackbot> Date: 17 July 2012
<scribe> ScribeNick: adrianba
<scribe> Scribe: Adrian Bateman
<yang> I have muted me... any noise now?
paulc: done
<paulc> http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-html-media-minutes.html
paulc: there were a couple of items that we created semi-actions from the last minutes
https://www.w3.org/html/wg/media/track/
paulc: none for MSE
Editor's Draft: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html
Media Source Extensions bugs: http://tinyurl.com/6pdnzej
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0005.html
acolwell: basically, i made all
the changes we discussed before and rewritten most of the
text
... mainly it was moving methods around and putting them in
objects as discussed
... i did not include the append URL part - i felt we were
still discussing this
... i also tried to address a couple of other bugs
... for example about audio tracks and video tracks
... and added appropriate language about text tracks
... don't think this is completely done but better
... added extra property called activeSourceBuffers
... the buffers associated with selected tracks (currently
selected video and all selected audio tracks)
... but it was hard to tell which buffers were involved
... this is the set of buffers that you need to continue
appending to to allow playback to continue
paulc: anyone with questions?
yang: where was the spec modified for text tracks?
<paulc> >- Added TextTrack language in various places since it was overlooked in the
<yang> added appropriate language about text tracks
yang: html5 spec already has language information
acolwell: i added text to the
document that is related to text tracks
... it's not that I added a language attribute
... i added text to describe how text tracks are handled
because it was missing before
yang: got it, thank you
<acolwell> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#track-buffer
acolwell: here is an example where i mention text tracks
<paulc> >http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0020.html
<acolwell> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#sourcebufferlist
acolwell: this is the existing sourcebufferlist IDL
<acolwell> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-media/raw-file/tip/media-source/media-source.html#mediasource
acolwell: this is the existing
mediasource IDL
... the idea is to move the remove() method from
sourcebufferlist to mediasource as removeSourceBuffer()
... there are couple of reasons for this
... one argument is consistency - always add and remove from
the same object - the mediasource
... it would be nice for this to be symmetrical
... now there there is a sourcebuffers and activesourcebuffers
- if i remove a buffer from one of these then it should affect
the other
... if i remove a buffer that is part of activesourcebuffers,
currently i could say activesourcebuffers.remove()
and this would also remove from sourcebuffers (because activesourcebuffers is a subset of the other)
scribe: and it would be
surprising to people if this affected both
... from an implementation perspective it is tricky to
coordinate the two lists so events fire at appropriate
times
yang: there is no activesourcebuffers attribute?
acolwell: yes, it's the second from the top
yang: the remaining buffers will be inactive?
acolwell: currently there is sourcebuffers with all buffers and activesourcebuffers which is just the ones backing the active tracks (the current video track, selected audio tracks, and appropriate text tracks)
yang: how do you make a source buffer active?
acolwell: they become active
based on the mechanism for selecting and enabling tracks in the
HTMLMediaElement
... videotracks has a selected attributed and each track in
audiotracks has an enabled property
... whenever the underlying track becomes active the associated
buffer will move into the active list
yang: remove is available to the activesourcebuffers - is it available to sourcebuffers also?
<yang> remove is availabe to sourcebuffer list?
acolwell: my proposal is to make
remove only part of mediasource because it is really about
removing the buffer from the source completely and not from a
particular list
... moving this into the mediasource object we can remove from
both lists with the single call if necessary
paulc: it is one thing to have a side-effect to have the buffer added to the active list but it would be strange to have it work in reverse
acolwell: if you remove a
sourcebuffer from the activesourcebuffers it will affect the
currently selected video track - there is some text that talks
about what should happen in this situation
... my point is that instead of removing from one list you
remove from the source then it makes more sense that it is
removed from both lists
<paulc> This discussion is about https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17082
paulc: the current draft includes everything except the discussion in msg 20
acolwell: are people comfortable with just making this change or should we share text on the list?
yang: if we move remove from sourcebufferlist to mediasource then there will be an extra method on mediasource
<yang> remove method should be in parent node of sourcebufferlist
acolwell: i don't understand the
objection - having remove on sourcebufferlist is not simpler
because the two lists need to be synchronised
... putting it in sourcebufferlist implies the two lists are
independent and they are not
<yang> they are not indepent?
<acolwell> no. activeSourceBuffers is a subset of sourceBuffers
<yang> ok
<yang> got it
<yang> no objection now.
acolwell: all of the objects in activesourcebuffers are in sourcebuffers
paulc: is the right way to proceed to propose text in an email?
adrianba: i propose we just update the document
<glenn> agreed
paulc: anyone object to updating
the document?
... no objections
yang: there will be a bug or email?
paulc: there already is an email - msg 20
<glenn> yang, you can review the change after it is in the document
<yang> but i can not find which part change,in fact some part i have not reviewed
paulc: aaron, could you open a bug or send mail and make link to the check-in
acolwell: i should be able to make the change for remove() today and then let the group know by email where the change is
<paulc> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17082
paulc: do these changes resolve this bug?
acolwell: yes
paulc: please mark the bug as fixed with links to email archive
acolwell: okay
paulc: could we look at bug 16997
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16997
paulc: Redesign mediaSourceURL
mechanism to allow declarative syntax
... does the object orientation change affect this?
acolwell: now that we're using createObjectURL there is no way to have a declarative method so this is out of scope
paulc: when the editor's mark 17082 as fixed, mark 16997 to make this out of scope
acolwell: okay
https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16998
paulc: we discussed this at a
previous meeting
... earlier aaron you alluded that you didn't make this
change
... but i think we gave you an action on june 19 to make this
change
acolwell: i can start making
these changes - i think i should update the proposal to match
the O-O changes
... and propose new IDL so people can see what i'm talking
about
<paulc> Previous Jun 19 discussion: http://www.w3.org/2012/06/19-html-media-minutes.html#item06
acolwell: and then there is a long email discussion about it
paulc: at the end of the
discussion we said add new method and mark old one as at
risk
... you haven't done this yet because you were focusing on the
main O-O bug?
acolwell: correct
paulc: has there been continuing discussion invalidating the june 19 discussion?
acolwell: i think i want to summarise what we agreed on to see if people still agree
yang: bug 16998 - the proposed
change for source URL is start/length but originally it was
start/end
... if i use length then i might forget where to start next
time but if i use end then it will be easier
... do you still think start/length will be simpler?
acolwell: i think it will be less
error prone because start/end follows HTTP range and for one
byte the start and end are the same
... but for length you can add length to the start to find the
next start
yang: you think this is simpler?
acolwell: yes, start/length is more intuitive
<paulc> See https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=16998#c6
markw: we need to figure out how
to provide the application with progress of bytes arriving like
XHR
... i need to know this for each appendURL call
... we don't quite have the structure there yet
... we could do this with progress events on the sourcebuffer
or we could create something like XHR or something else
paulc: you're okay with providing a summary and proposal on 16998?
acolwell: yes
... i agree with mark to about progress events
... for example, should we take a step back and figure out
integration with XHR?
paulc: please provide a summary
email about where we have agreement and where there are other
hard questions remaining
... if you can enumerate these as questions then we can get
people on the list to offer answers or review your
proposals
... next item from the last meeting https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17004
... last meeting discussion was inconclusive
... discussion ended with "continue discussion on email"
... have we made enough progress on this?
... this appears to have split into a thread about ad
insertion
<paulc> Ad insertion: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0033.html
paulc: and another thread where aaron provided a summary of where we are
<paulc> Summary on 17004 thread: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0035.html
paulc: i'm wondering how we
process this bug? what do we do about the split - is this more
than one bug?
... there has been some further discussion
... it looks like this needs to continue on email?
acolwell: yes, i think we still need some discussion on timestamp offset - i thought of some new things to talk about over the weekend
<paulc> Thread discussion ends at http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0055.html
acolwell: perhaps we can come
back to this at the next meeting and have enough progress to
update the spec
... on ad insertion, i think that is a separate feature
request
... i think it would be interesting to have this discussion but
it isn't directly tied to the MSE work
... and if the media list is the appropriate place to discuss
this
paulc: you're saying this isn't a bug against the 2 specs we have?
acolwell: it is about a time
accurate pause and events
... it seems like more of a feature for the media element
... rather than MSE or EME
duncanr: i was initially confused
about why we're adding the complexity for the timestamp
mechanism
... and i'm curious to know how to progress any switching
mechanism in the thread
... but there may be need for additional standardisation and
the question is where to put that
paulc: i think the right think to
do is open a HTML5 bug on the media element with the
requirements and use cases and point to this discussion to
comment that this isn't covered by the media specs
... i would do this directly on the HTML5 component
... we'll treat the ad insertion thread as dealt with for now
by duncan raising this as a HTML5 item
... we'll allow the mailing list discussion to continue
<paulc> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0044.html
paulc: the next topic is msg
44
... Establishing the Presentation Start Timestamp
... for this item, does this need to be opened as a bug?
acolwell: it will likely require a spec update so should probably file a bug but wanted to start a discussion to see how people think we should handle this scenario
<paulc> Thread extends to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0053.html currently
acolwell: the current spec
doesn't really handle this and we've run into problems while
trying to implement
... so i think we need more information about how presentation
time is established
paulc: please can you file a bug?
acolwell: yes, and i'll respond to the thread
paulc: https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=17071
acolwell: i started a discussion on this
<paulc> See http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-media/2012Jul/0050.html
paulc: "Define how presentation
duration is set & updated"
... i'm assuming we want to continue the email discussion?
acolwell: yes, i don't think it will be too contentious
paulc: the only other thing i'd
like to suggest
... between now and the next meeting, could the editors go
through them
... we said we'd deal with O-O and then cover the other
bugs
... could the editors propose specific changes for some of the
bugs
... now that we've got the main O-O bug out of the way we need
to make progress on multiple different fronts
paulc: next meeting in 2
weeks
... there is a period later in august - august 20th when i am
travelling and may need to find another person to chair
... if anyone wants to help with volunteering to chair i will
listen to offers
paulc: we're done - thanks aaron for all the work
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