Provenance Working Group Teleconference

26 Apr 2012


See also: IRC log


TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, stain, MacTed, SamCoppens, +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, Sandro, stainMobile
Paul_Groth, James_Cheney, Paolo_Missier, Satya_Sahoo, Olaf_Hartig, Simon_Miles
Luc Moreau


<trackbot> Date: 26 April 2012

<stain> hi

<stain> I can scribe, but only for 15 minutes - would need backup scribe

<Luc_> we don't have a scribe. Could someone volunteer?

<stain> Zakim: ??P8 is me

I can do it (I hope)

<stain> just type what people say, prefix with say Luc:

<Luc_> scribe: TomDN

<stain> and don't be afraid to ask when something is unclear :)

ok, got it :)

<stain> Luc_: just do like Stian says, type on the IRC


Luc: any other business?

<Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-04-19

<GK> Oops, I'm late. Still emailing. Setting up now.

<Luc_> Proposed: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference


<Curt> +1

<MacTed> +1

<stain> 0 (not there)

<SamCoppens> +1

<jun> 0(not there too)

<tlebo> +1

<Luc_> Resolved: to accept minutes of 2012-04-19 teleconference

<GK> (not there)

open actions

Luc: are actions 73 and 74 complete?

<dgarijo> Sorry to be late, +1 to the minutes of last week.

<stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

<stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/73

<stain> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/74

<dgarijo> yeah this are the actions I set a while ago I think.


<dgarijo> *these

Luc: paul told me all reviews for PAQ were received

<stain> Jun - yours is about http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/305

Luc: there are 2 options

<tlebo> @jun, I think that is closed.

Luc: release now, or make changes first and postpone release

<Zakim> GK, you wanted to comment that most outstanding comments have been addressed

GK: been busy today going through comments

<tlebo> @jun, I closed your action.

GK: most issues are resolved
... 2 remaining

Luc: other reviewers on the call?

SamCoppens: early release is ok for me

Curt: satisfied with responses to his review

<Luc_> guidance to editors: address minor issues and aim at early release

Luc: Now we aim for early release, and address minor issues

Dublin Core Best Practice

Luc: wanted to have an update on progress

<jun> @tlebo, thanks! I agree

dgarijo: discussed it with Kai. Some delay due to other priorities. Can continue now

Luc: Can timetable be suggested?

dgarijo: Should be possible to make next week

Release of Documents

Luc: Prov-DM Prov-N and Primer are in mercurial and ready to be handed over

<sandro> (sorry I'm late; previous meeting ran late, debugging mercurial.)

Luc: Some final changes are made to CONSTRAINTS document, should be done by friday
... All documents should be ready for webmaster by the end of the week.
... some issues with PROV-O.

<stain> I did not fix the validation things that seemed to be caused by Tim's automated-thingie-my-bob

tlebo: Should be possible to get document ready by deadline on Monday

Luc: reviewers were happy with release as such. No blocking issues

tlebo: We are making the document ready validation-wise

Luc: if necessary, the webmaster can help with this as well

tlebo: will look into it this afternoon.

Luc: reason for synchronized release was to get external feedback. Would be good to identify the people we want to approach for this.

<Curt> Hook Hua, NASA/JPL will be a good reviewer for the whole package

Luc: invites everyone to think about potential reviewers.
... not necessary for them to review all documents, some of them is also ok

<khalidbelhajjame> +q

Luc: Anyone here who would like to write a blog about changes since last release?

sorry, I didnt get that answer due to noise

<MacTed> sorry, ??p8 ... the echo was just too much

kh: workshop is end of may, 28th of may

<stain2> I can do a blog post

Jun: If necessary, I can write something about Prov-O

<jun> @stain2, that will be good to work together on the ontology post

stain2: can work together with Jun on this

Luc: specifications will be out next thursday, so time for the blog should be shortly after that

Definition of Alternate and Specialization

Luc: there were many discussions about alt/spec.
... Solution should have support of the whole WG.
... If no consensus can be had, we follow the agreed procedure, and drop them from specification, and add them as notes

<Luc_> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/SpecializationAlternateDefinitions#Definitions_13_.28refinement_of_12.29

Luc: TomDN, Jim, james and chairs discussed this via email/wiki
... Definition 13 is something they are happy with, and ask for support from the group. Vote will be next week
... hopefully this will close the issue. If not, we will discuss more, but they will be dropped from the documents and added as notes.

JimMcCusker: We went through a number of iterations
... trying to define clearly what an entity is
... we agreed that an entity is something we use to talk about things in a particular way.
... explains definitions.
... We leave things open for alternates to be very distinct ways of looking at the same thing.
... Special attention paid to lifetime of entities.

<GK> exists general => exists specialization? Other way round?

<GK> AHh.. I get it...

<JimMcCusker> An entity is a physical, digital, conceptual, or other kind of thing with some fixed aspects. Entities may be real or imaginary. (same as above)

<JimMcCusker> Two alternate entities present aspects of the same thing. These aspects may be the same or different, and the alternate entities may or may not overlap in time. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

<JimMcCusker> An entity that is a specialization of another entity shares all aspects of the latter, and additionally presents more specific aspects of the same thing as the latter. In particular, the lifetime of the specialized entity contains that of any specialization. (changed has to presents; rearranged & added time)

TomDN: Pros of the definitions are: they avoid discussion about reflexivity/transitivity like we had before. Also they require minimal changes to existing documents

Luc: They are a good compromise.

<khalidbelhajjame> +q

<stainMobile> I wA

kh: main difference is in definition is in alternateOf. More specifically, the overlapping/non-overlapping intervals.

<Curt> I like emphasis on "aspects". Key to understanding will be good examples...

kh: Concerns that "aspects" will be confusing.

JimMcCusker: We settled on aspects because it's the most efficient way to talk about everything an entity can be

<stainMobile> Wander slightly what is the meaning of alternate , first line says entity is a thing, second that entity a aspect

JimMcCusker: It's not an exclusive view, but also not a fixed set of attributes
... the meaning is that of the natural language meaning of aspects. No special definition required.

kh: Why was it necessary to relax the definition of alternate to non-overlapping intervals.

Luc: this is to accomodate examples like the "customer in chair at 6pm or 7pm" one
... Vote will be next week


Luc: Update on current status: Collections are now called Dictionaries in the DM

<khalidbelhajjame> @Luc, yes

Luc: Changes are made to prov-o document as well.

<stainMobile> There might be a few Collections hanging about still :)

<JimMcCusker> I need to drop off, thanks all!

Tim: Acknowledges that these changes are being made today

<tlebo> ( http://aquarius.tw.rpi.edu/prov-wg/prov-o#description-collections still needs to be updated to reflect the name change)

Luc: Do we want another, concrete kind of collection in the model?

<khalidbelhajjame> +q

kh: One way to try to answer this is to look what kind of provenance is required.
... do we need order, duplicates, ... ?
... Dictionary as it is now is very general. Can be mapped to most possible collections when required
... So most cases will be covered already.
... As they are now, dictionaries are very expressive, which is great.

tlebo: Collections actually always were Dictionaries, except for the name.
... adding more features would be feature-creep

(spelling of that last one? )

<GK> (I'm staying silent for now, as my earlier email seems to have struck a nerve and I'm considering my response.)

<stainMobile> Creep

Jun: agrees, adding more would make the model look more like a datastructure

GK: Still not completely convinced that we need Collections. Simpler is better.

<tlebo> @gk, you mean Dictionaries?

<tlebo> @gk @luc thx

<GK> (I mean any kind of collection)

<Luc_> Proposed: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

GK: Any kind of collection/dictionary

<tlebo> +1

<jun> yes

<stainMobile> +1

<Curt> +1

<zednik> +1

<khalidbelhajjame> +1 (except if we find a case that justifies coming up with another kind of collections)


<MacTed> +0

<sandro> +0

<GK> (abstain)

<Luc_> ACCEPTED: not to specify any other form of collection in PROV

<Curt> (I'm fine with just dictionary, but I do think there is some merit for 'set'..)

<tlebo> bye!

Luc: If evidence should present itself to add more kind of collections, issue could be reopened. But for now, closed

<zednik> bye

<stainMobile> Set is done easily with URI as keys


<Luc_> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

[End of minutes]

Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.136 (CVS log)
$Date: 2012/04/26 15:51:38 $

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Succeeded: s/fixed/caused/
Succeeded: s/Jim/Tim/
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Found Scribe: TomDN
Inferring ScribeNick: TomDN
Default Present: TomDN, Curt_Tilmes, Luc_, stain, MacTed, SamCoppens, +1.720.708.aaaa, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, dgarijo, Sandro, stainMobile
Present: TomDN Curt_Tilmes Luc_ stain MacTed SamCoppens +1.720.708.aaaa tlebo khalidbelhajjame dgarijo Sandro stainMobile
Regrets: Paul_Groth James_Cheney Paolo_Missier Satya_Sahoo Olaf_Hartig Simon_Miles
Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.04.26
Found Date: 26 Apr 2012
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/04/26-prov-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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