See also: IRC log
shepazu: we are looking at publication
… I am web app and svg
… ivan is looking at semantic web
… the process is the headlight process
… you are all familiar with it
… we are looking at things whether w3c can/should something in digital publication
scribe: it may be relevant for w3c , the formats use all kind of w3c standards
… epub is a good example that use profiles of these specifications (html, css, mathml, etc0
… we had discussion with them (IDPF)
… they have a different set of constraints
… w3c moves a bit more slowly, but works good test suites and is more in the public
… we also want to make sure that what w3c is doing is meeting the needs of things like epub
… and there may be other issues on electronic publishing which are not relevant for epub
… we do not want to limit what this is about
… if people feel they want, e.g., non packaged books, that should be in scope
… also, content protection may be of interest
… we want to sure that authors and publishers make money
… so there are issues around rights, also electronic publishing
… there are also issue around micro publication, aggregation of scientific publications, datasets,
… the semantic web, big data to publishing, e.g., in scientific publishing
… this call is whether w3c *should* be doing something
… we are not to define a format
… whether w3c should start some level of work in this area
… i.e., are there issues with w3c, are you hindered that w3c may help, what direction we should go *if* we go into this
glazou: daniel glazman, i am co-chair of the css wg
… i am implementing an epub3 wswyg editor
… you touched a very sensitive issue to me
… there is one domain where idpf is much advanced on us, that is the table of content
… it is a bit messy, because they have toc for readers, for voice, etc
… this is where we can learn from there
shepazu: other things are like glossaries
… indexes, things like that, these are all interesting problems to look at
Sanders: i am at o'reilly, publishing engineer
… as somebody implementing an epub3 tool chain
… i am here to see the direction
… one of the challenges is to standardize one epub file that would work over all readers
… example in html5 is the formats for audio and video
… html5 is fairly agnostic, but this is a real challenge for epub readers
… so standardizing media formats would be a great plus
shepazu: are there issues beyond media?
sanders: there are nuances in readers, like css2.1, and this is a challenge
… maybe not in this group
… i do not have the answers to these, but hopefully there is a place for standardization there
shepazu: improving test suites may help, and that is w3c is working on
… for extensions is not something we do, but we could work with epub to do that
… as for the formats
… this goes down to the hardware level (for the decoding)
… for the web it makes sense, but for epub I can see the issue
… maybe some sort of a format might work here
… one say you must support H264, the other say webm
… that might make the publishing toolchain easier
… so the idea of profiles might be a good way forward
mgylling: with the idpf
… i also have a background in the DAISY Consortium
… potential things to work on
… one of the issues is centered around interactivity and scripting
… until the end of last year epub was static
… but now the publishing community that people can do whatever they want via scripts
<JeanKap> interactivity and scripting is HUGE. And we're seeing more demand for it on Android in addition to iOS and the other platforms.
… both for users and publishers finding some structures (widgets, apis) would be very improtant
… it is a challenge for publishers, there are accessibility issues, etc
<JeanKap> and we really can't do whatever we want via scripts - we can only do what, for instance, the iBooks app, will support.
… e.g., a fully functional widget specification would be great
shepazu: there are a number of issues, performance, etc
… do you have a suggested solution?
mgylling: not really. IDPF can do things on its own, but it is worth discussing in this group, relations to the w3c widget works, svg animation, etc
shepazu: we could work on filling the gaps in the profile that epub is
… another aspect is the widget things
… widgets were at w3c to standardize a packaging format for web applications
… it never took off on the market
… but there is potentially more interest now
… it would not be widget but something like that
… the point is the group is to see whether there is anything we would do
… specifically the goal is to create a report for our ac meeting and then a final report for the w3c management
… it might be that in a couple months we may have dedicated resources on this
… for the time being we concentrate on what is important for w3c to do
… just to set the scope...
murray: i have been involved in publication since 77...
… so i am interested in publ formats
… and also real books
… do we consider any other formats than html5
… to get more capabilities in the publishing domain
… that today we have to take our rich formats to convert them down to html to work with browsers
… is this group explore to use other formats
… or do we have the opportunity to inform on other formats
shepazu: any format is of course interesting, but there are huge resources in html5 at w3c
… different formats within w3c: i doubt it
… is it in the scope of this group to make recommendation for html.next? Yes, absolutely
… so if there are inputs getting there, that would be very valuable
… now that browsers are getting into this market
Murray: one of the key things that affect my abilities
… if browsers would take any element name and format on that name
shepazu: I think that if you looked at the component model work
… there you can define your own element with scripted behavior
Murray: another thing is more link capabilities
shepazu: we tried with xlink in the past, and we did not get much uptake for that...
JeanKap: epub and digital solution at Aptara
… I am involved on the idpf on indexing, i was also involved with docbook
… and had employment history in publishing in general, educational publishing
… working with epub since 1996
… one of the thing i am concerned about is the number of forks we see to epub3
… that might undermine the success of epub3
… there is the ibook format
… another what apple did with extending ebook
… and then there is the amazon format
… some are essentially epub3, but there are too much extension
… we have to advocate for *the* standard
<emma> +1
… we need to have some pitch/messaging around that it is everybody's interest to use a standard
… today if I have to publish ebook with also interactivity in it, then i have to produce different ebooks
shepazu: i do thing that there desire to standard around thing
… w3c, for example cannot force anybody to use a standard
scribe: there can be pressure from the public, from the publishers
… e.g., if there is a joint idpf/w3c messaging, marketing push, conformance criteria, it could help the market
JeanKap: what I am thinking is the w3c putting its emphasis to use the standard, if we had a common statement, it shows that idpf is not just there by itself
… i think we need more public messaging
shepazu: i know that epub looked at iso certification, we are also a pas submitter to iso
… that sort of a market issue
… if we had something where governments could say that textbooks should be used in that format, for example, i think you would see various reader providers rush to that format
… right now I know that lot of schools have mandated the use of iPads, deals have been done on products
… that troubles me
… I see epub a way to improve what we had with pdf
… epub has the potential to be much more influential
<JeanKap> [even more concerning is legislation in the US focusing on ebooks - they want to choose a platform, and since iPad is the most known platform, there is a lot of support for pushing this into the legislation.]
… this is another way, looking at that verticle
Liam: i am the xml activity lead at w3c, also the chair of the xml printing and layout wg
… i have been talking to number of publishers and people working on ebooks
… anything we do should fit the workflows publishers have
… the people i talked to use xml technologies, then convert them to ebooks
<Zakim> Liam, you wanted to say hello and mention workflow
shepazu: there are lot of people using xml workflows,
… we have to look at that
emma: emanuelle bernes, in digital libraries
… my perspective is the end user one
… the many forks of epub is an issue
… e.g., interoperability's, preservation, all lead to issues
… it is important to have a standard that is shared by the community
… it is also about the metadata, not only the format,
… that is important for libraries
… i also think print publishers (in France) know nothing about techniques and formats
… they rely on third parties and companies
… if they are to transform what they do to digital form
… the issue is that they do not know what standard to use
… they will listen to 3rd format
… that touches on the marketing issue, we need strong standards
… so that we can keep interoperability's and preservation in mind
shepazu: metadata and better documentation how to use these things
… a lot could be done there
<Liam> ivan: an interesting point, I've started discussions with libraries
<Liam> and libraries are looking at metadata
<Liam> e.g. Lib Congress
<Liam> ...so some community very interested
<Liam> epub needs to be prepared for the kind of metadata the library community needs, and vice versa
George: i work with the secretary of the daisy consortium (accessibility community)
… we worked with the idpf to help to improve the epub3 in this respect
… the d consortium has lots of contact with the various w3c standard
… we work with idpf to make epub fully accessible
… we certainly want to harmonize with w3c
… in the metadata area we are very flexible
… and with epub we wanted to extend the semantics to html5
… i suspect a lot of publishers will target epub3 formats
… i think epub3 is a great standard
shepazu: i would like to come up with actions...
… we should comb through the minutes
… on the wiki we should start writing down what we extracted w3c could be doing here
… we could then all write down use cases, scenarios
… each put down a couple of scenarios that support an activity w3c would do
… on the technical as well as social side
… e.g., promoting the standard
… I will try to summarize these minutes
… me or ivan will send a mail pointing to the wiki
… to put forward the case to the w3c management to should (or should not) do something in this area
… i invite people to share things on the mailing list
… we have a number of different backgrounds here
… we would really want to hear from people who are users, metadata, etc.
<JeanKap> Thank you!
<Sanders> Thank you!