See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 23 February 2012
<scribe> scribe: cyril
<scribe> scribenick: cyril
<heycam> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0114.html
CL: Chris has written up some
review
... I'll skip to the bits that might be difficult
... we don't currently allow replacement text i.e. to do
numbering
... because our text does not reflow
but the icon property might be used
CM: that replaces with an image
CL: yes
CM: I could see supporting before
and after for numbering in SVG
... where you might not need reflowing
... if have a text with a width
... but replacing a text with an image might be tricky
... because we don't allow image in text
CL: it does not assume a coordinate system
CM: you could set this icon property on a tspan in a middle of text
CL: yes
CM: my initial feeling is to make icon not apply to our text unless we go into having image in text
CL: especially because it's at
risk
... if we don't speak up and say we love it, it might
disappear
... next is outline-property
... it is like a border but without width
... in this draft it adds more control on how it looks
like
... and it says it doesn't have to be rectangular
... maybe rounded corner
... for SVG that means is a rectangle, not really useful, it is
essentially like stroking the bounding box
ED: how does it work with CSS transforms
CL: good question
DS: I think that outline is
really useful because people would want to use it as a
highlight mechanism
... we should define our highlight in terms of outline
CM: when we have focused element?
DS: yes
... but I think you're probably right in your comment
CL: next: resizing and
overflow
... resize is done only if the object is too big and you've set
overflow correctly
... it is more useful in the HTML/SVG integration than for SVG
by itself
... it only applies to elements that are too big to fit
... you wouldn't be able to resize a path
<ChrisL> Fatal error: Allowed memory size of 33554432 bytes exhausted (tried to allocate 77 bytes) in /afs/w3.org/pub/WWW/2002/09/wbs/user.phi on line 341
CL: next: overflow:
ellipsis
... this is where you've got text that it is too big to fit and
replace the end of the text with ...
... but the instruction is entirely defined in the box model
and difficult for SVG
ed: we have a resolution to add this to SVG 2
<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_text-overflow_to_SVG_2
ed: we've implemented that for SVG already
<ChrisL> "when inline content overflows its block container element "
<ed> text content block elements
CL: we should say that we want
wording when it applies to SVG
... like text outside of the viewport
<shepazu> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/issues/2440
CL: this might be a bit funny
<ed> here's the proposal for how to make it work in svg: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/F2F/Auckland_2011/Text-overflow
CL: same thing for the path, the
characters outside don't get rendered
... but you don't know your'e missing characters
DS: can you provide example on how it works for path in SVG ?
ED: yes
<ed> http://dahlström.net/svg/css/text-overflow-ellipsis.svg
CM: so you use the width
attribute
... but it's probably not the right one, the length would be
better
... we might be defining our text layout treated as if we were
using hte CSS box model
... but today we don't use it
CL: cursor property
... they define a superset of what we have
... the change is for links, in our spec, we have a lnk to a
cursor element (invented in SVG)
... because we did not want to change the syntax of CSS
... the way they define the x and y property is better
... i propose that we deprecate the cursor element because the
x/y is better handled
DS: would you still be able to do custom cursor elements
CL: yes
... that is why the x/y is for
... the cursor element is just another level of indirection
just to indicate the hotspot in your cursor resource
... ASV 6 implemented that I think
CM: we just need to handle the new x,y that's it
CL: yes
... two related things: tab order and direction
navigation
... do we care about that, and say we want to have 8
way-navigation (SVG Tiny 1.2) or we are fine with 4 way
DS: i think it makes sense to
have 8-way
... there are some devices with 8-way controllers
... in DOM 3 the key model assumes an 8-way controller
CL: I can point to DOM and SVG
CM: erik do you implement the 8-way ?
ED: I think we do,
CL: good to know because the
feature is at risk because of lack of implementations
... next: Input method editor
<ed> http://www.opera.com/docs/specs/presto2.10/svg/attributes/ lists all the nav attributes from Tiny 1.2 as supported
CL: it's more aimed at
Japanese
... you can disable to IME
<shepazu> http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/#key-values-list
CL: it's very weird
DS: why CSS does anything to do with IME?
CM: the point is that IE had this property to force the IME not to come up
CL: last, references
... it references both SVG 1.0 and SVG 1.1
... as informative documents
... some other references are weird
... that concludes my review
DS: is it worth mentionning htat hte pointer-events property has been dropped from CSS UI
CL: yes, thank you
DS: I had an action to do the CSS
version of pointer events
... but Tantek said no I'll do it, but then dropped it
... because there is not a good testing model for the
platform
... he moved that on for CSS UI 4
... but I think it oculd be a standalone spec including hit
testing and pointer events
... it could be a separate module of CSS
... if it was already in scope for CSS UI but was dropped
... there's been a lot of demand for it
DS2: I don't care if it is a module or CSS 4
<shepazu> https://developer.mozilla.org/en/CSS/pointer-events
DS: it works in Chrome, Firefox and Safari
<ChrisL> in html
CL: I'll add that comment to the end of the review
DS: I don't mind if it is moved to UI 4 if there is a plan to have CSS UI 4 move quickly
CL: I don't think it'll go fast
DS: then that suboptimal given that it is already implemented
RC: is there any security issue with that?
DS: it's implemented so I don't think there are unadressed security issues
CM: who was assigned the action to review it?
CL: Erik ?
CM: when is the CSS spec due ?
<scribe> Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html
ED: the review were due yesterday
CM: I remember some email about object-fit
ED: there was an issue on how you could reference SVG files from the element() syntax
<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1124.html
DS: Chris has raised the issue in
CSS
... the CSS WG agreed to publish
<ed> response from tab: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1137.html
CM: is there anything useful discussing about the spec or not
ED: you can't reference a whole SVG file
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#element-reference
<ed> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-images/#paint-sources
CM: if you reference a gradient or pattenr, what does it mean in terms of coordinate space on the element you're using
ED: you'd have to wrap an SVG element in a pattern
DiS: wouldn't it be better to say user unit?
CL: I prefer user coordinates instead of user units
<ed> there was a response from boris Zbarsky too, http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2012Feb/1131.html
CM: if you're using an SVG as a background image, you can use a URL to point to the SVG
ED: the use case I think is that
some SVG might not be rendered first
... so SVG elements with display:none can't get reference
CM: what about things inside a <defs>
ED: I think you can still reference them if they are paint sources
DiS: what is the painting area? Is that defined ?
CM: I don't know if this is a CSS term, I assume its the background area
<heycam> (at least for background-image)
DiS: for userSpaceOnUse, it is not defined how width and height are used
ED: I think we should have a look
at it
... Tab said he already made some minor changes to the
spec
... feel free to read the spec and make more comments
... I will mail the questions we raised tomorrow
DiS: we should be careful if we add new paint servers
CM: it says in SVG 1.1 and talks about host language, so we should be safe
TB: there is also hatch fill and video
TB: basically, how are we going
to test things in SVG 2 but more urgently the upcoming
transform spec
... there are people writing tests for HTML
... what is the format going to be
DiS: is it possible to port the CSS system to SVG ?
TB: I don't know how well it's
portable
... for instance in Inkscape you don't have HTML and JS
... looking at CSS, most of it relies on JS capturing and
testing
DiS: for WebKit, most tests for
Transforms are JS
... but we could have ref tests
TB: yes
CM: I thought that the framework was to support ref tests
DS: I think you're right
... we would be out of touch if we did not go in the
framework
... but for UA that don't support JS or CSS we should do
something
... I'll try to have someone from the testing activity in the
SVG call
... we definitely one single unified framework at W3C and have
it work for SVG
... I'll see if we can have someone for next week
CM: if you're wondering what to
do for immediately
... I suggest you write plain SVG ref tests
... and once we have some framework running, we can convert
them automatically
... do you have a command line tool that render it to a PNG
TB: yes
<Tav> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/CSS/index.html
DiS: another thing is the size of the tests
TB: I started to write some tests in the same format as we did before
DS: Philippe Le Hegaret could call
<shepazu> http://w3c-test.org/
TB: How can we do tests for renderers that don't have access to JS
PLH: there is no way to do that
automatically
... SVG will write many ref tests
... and in most of hte cases it would work
... the framework that we have has the ability to have ref
tests
... but they have to be run manually if you want to test
Inkscape
CL: the framework is a bit
different from what we have
... all pages are forms so that you can directly say if it
passes or fails
... the reporting is automatic
CM: does that do automation of ref tests
PLH: no, it will display the test next to each other and there will be button for people to say pass/fail
<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/
PLH: the main framework is
here
... PHP scripts maintained by Robin Berjon
... there is a Bugzilla
... Peter Linss contributes to
... it will allow you to run various kinds of tests
... for ref tests, I'm looking at some
<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/woff-ua/blocks-extraneous-data-001/
PLH: this one is a ref test for
WOFF
... the framework is independent of the tests format, it is
only here to gather results
<plh> http://w3c-test.org/framework/test/nav-timing-default/test_navigate_within_document.html/
DiS: how do you test animations and transitions
PLH: we have no way to test that
DS: you could have ref tests
script based
... there is a way to test animations, if you allow scripts
PLH: for technologies that we
can't automate, the fallback is user interaction
... we support well JS tests and we ask everyone to use the
same harness
... but we also say write ref tests and then manual
... if someone comes up with a test method that works in a
browser, we should be able to integrate it
DS: do you have a document describing the architecture of the framework
<plh> http://www.w3.org/2011/05/testrunner.svg
PLH: no, we have not spend much
time on documentation so far
... Sheperd is the name of the CSS Framework, this is running a
modified version of that framework
... if we are going to help editors, this would need to have a
completely different approach
CC: I think the goal is that tests be compatible for both automated tests and editor tests
PLH: one of the advantage of the harness is that you can overload the functions
CM: for the ref tests, there is no restriciton on the format of the tests
PLH: no, as long as we can display the document we are good
CM: and we need to write a manifest file to index our tests
CL: it's fairly easy
... we need to work out what needs to be done to have reference
to spec in the tests
PLH: the framework does not put
any requirements on metadata
... for instance the CSS WG is very rigid on the metadata,
while the HTML WG does not have any constraint
... you can put metadata in the manifest file ...
CL: there is a script that can be added to the spec to auto-annotate the spec with links to go directly to the tests
PLH: you can also deploy PHP
files if you need
... for instance for XHR, there is some behavior of the
server
... that is required
... that is why we are running it on another server, to avoid
security issues
... I
... am guessing that you will have more requirements
... we could have Robin or Peter join in
DS: Robin knows SVG will and can understand what we will need
CM: yes that is fine
... we should have somebody take charge during the week of
thinking of our requirements
PLH: one of the issues we have know is testing WebSockets but I don't think we will have these problems
CM: any volunteer
DS: Tav ?
TB: I'm a little worried that I don't know about the SMIL testing ...
CM: why don't we start a wiki page
TB: yes, I'll do that
<plh> --> http://www.w3.org/wiki/TestInfra/goals Testing/Requirements
<scribe> ACTION: Tav to start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-3240 - Start a wiki page on SVG testing requirements [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2012-03-01].
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 0.99) Succeeded: s/risj/risk/ Succeeded: s/overlfow/overflow/ Succeeded: s/today/tomorrow/ Succeeded: s/#fill/hatch fill/ Found Scribe: cyril Inferring ScribeNick: cyril Found ScribeNick: cyril WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: CC CL CM ChrisL DS DS2 DiS Doug_Schepers IPcaller Microsoft P9 PLH RC TB Tav aaaa aabb away cabanier cyril ed heycam https joined krit scribenick shepazoo shepazu svg trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2012JanMar/0108.html Found Date: 23 Feb 2012 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2012/02/23-svg-minutes.html People with action items: tav[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]