Promoting Make Presentations Accessible - Script being finalised and should be ready to roll out w/c 20 February just in time for CSUN, but wait until announcement from WAI before promoting. Also aiming to have the translation but there may still be a problem with the linked script which could make things difficult for the translators.
Flyer update - Design should be finalised today since the flyer is needed for CSUN. A couple of minor design isues were raised and discussion followed regarding the quote and some of the copy and punctuation. In particular how WAI is positioned within W3C and how we speak about it.
Curriculum and Course Materials - Liam and Suzette updated the group. Liam is pulling some bits together and Suzette has joined the Web Ed community. Suzette also wondered if it was time to come up with a scope of what we are trying to do. Shawn agreed that we need to work out what we want for accessibility and Liam and Suzette agreed to look at existing material and the Wiki and scope out a short term project.
Evaluation Methodology doc title and acronym - Shadi updated the group about a possible acronym - Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology - WACEM and asked if it worked. It was felt the name was good but there could be problems with pronunciation. A number of alternatives were suggested but it was decided we would continue to think about it.
Shawn reminded everyone to check action items and to update availability for future EO teleconferences.
Shawn: Wanted to promote this before CSUN but we are a week away from CSUN. Shadi, what is your position? Should we promote with the note or do you have any thoughts about this?
Shadi: Just got the updated script from Wandana. The script should be finalized - if no bugs found - should be ready to role but would prefer not to launch if there are any bugs found
Shawn: If ready today, we could send out today given that CSUN is a week away
Shadi: Let's see if it is ready or not for later today, if not hopefully no later than Monday.
Shawn: Please hold off until
final. Just watch for the announcement from WAI. After that, go
... Sylvie, what about the translation?
Sylvie: I sent an e-mail to you and Shadi. Wasn't sure what to do regarding the finalization of script.
Shawn: Just moved the new content to the main url so you can use the one sent to the translators list. Shadi, will the script links all be the same so that Sylvie can go ahead?
Shadi: There will be different class names, the rest basically as it is. Don't think the html changed that much. Content should be the same.
Sylvie: how can I know what has changed in html
Shadi: Don't worry. Once ready, I'll let you know. It's also better to have the final script and you will need to install the script locally.
Shawn: You could go ahead with the content. We can worry about the expand/collapse later.
<shawn> ACTION: Shawn with Shadi add information for translators related to expand-collapse script [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-97 - With Shadi add information for translators related to expand-collapse script [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-02-24].
Shadi: We do have a problem with the linked script. It will be more difficult for the translators. They will need the script and resources. Better to consider that. The idea is that the translator would also need to download the script so that the expand/collapse would work.
Shawn: Action item for
instructions on that. No. 1 goal to have the translation but
also to have the script working.
... Any other questions on this item?
... All okay.
Shawn: Next item is the flyer.
Those who were here on time will have received the copy of the
flyer by e-mail. I'll get it to the rest of you in a
... This is a draft not for distribution at this time. We plan to have it at CSUN.
Shawn: Shadi, I received your comments from this morning. In perspective: the design should be finalized today. Two points: we want this available for CSUN. Would love to receive your comments on this version and also for the next version.
Denis: I have a comment concerning color contrast. WCAG 2 at a glance. Need to check the color contrast ratio
Shawn: this is really for print
material. But we still do need to be aware of the color
contrast. Any other comments?
... Concerning the quote, a lot of back and forth. The point is interesting. Ian suggests an update on that.
Ian: If you are taking this
material to CSUN, a lot of people will have already seen the
quote. Just thinking from that point.
... In the design, there is shadow / drop shadow on the first page and it appears the color doesn't match the rounded bit (not sure Vicki got all this)
... Editorial point: under WAI guidelines, bullet points, media players etc., uppercase/versus lower case. Just some consistency required.
Shawn: browsers, media players are one group. The others are another group. That's the reason. We could decide later on.
<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask if good further promote an already well-known quote? branding...?
Shadi: Regarding the quote, I am wondering whether - although it has been used - there could be a positive side which associates the quote with WAI etc.
Shawn: Anyone has some quick reactions?
Liam: Ask Tim to churn out 10 or so quotes for futher use.
Shawn: Get it? We need to churn them out.
Denis: It could be something for EO to do
Shawn: Cannot remember where it originated.
Liam: He is a great argurment from authority. I would keep the quote.
Shawn: Action point to have a
beer with Tim
... any quick comments?
Helle: Policies, evaluation should be four bullets but maybe it's a space problem. What about, instead of commas, instead use something else?
Shawn: Good idea to re-look at
... Action point to look at punctuation
Denis: On the quote: I'd keep it. The document is designed for communication. So, it might reach a wider audience, i.e., those who have not seen it. Although it is repeated, it might reinforce the message.
Vicki: Keep it.
Denis: I have one more comment. Whilst WAI comes before WCAG, because of the space problem, couldn't we just swop the footers so that we get more room?
Shawn: Txs for the idea. This is for a stack. What's on WCAG 2 at a glance is an important disclaimer.
Denis: Just the disclaimer.
Denis: just reduce a few words
Shawn: A couple of points: one of the sentences that has changed since we last spoke is the W3C Comm Team. The second paragraph "WAI brings individuals etc.....". Point is that some people know W3C, others not. I'm curious how that lands for now or should we try and come up with something better for this version. Any comments?
Denis: I personally like it.
Vicki: Fine for me
Shadi: I think the sentence is a bit too long. What bothers me most is "foundation of the web" - for someone who doesn't know W3C, they may not understand. Perhaps, some stronger wording but no better suggestion.
<suzette> fine for me BUT top title is Web Accessibility initiative (should that be Initiative)
Shawn: Unless I hear otherwise, we'll keep it as is. Other ideas are welcome.
Helle: I don't know if there would be other organizations which would make the same claim.
Shawn: I tried other options but the Comm Team did not agree.
Helle: Sometimes standardizing bodies can be picky.
Shadi: I see the time pressure
which you are under. It's a mild concern.
... It puts WAI as the global leader (it seems that's how it reads). Just imagining if someone who doesn't know W3C.
Shawn: An earlier version, "as part of W3C".
Helle: My concern is WAI does much more than develolping standards.
Shadi: WAI is the global leader
is powerful statement, which is great. However, if you compare
that with the statement of W3C. It seems that it is not as
punchy as the description for WAI.
... WAI is the global leader in Web Accessibility
Shawn: If we consider all the resources, I'm comfortable with that
Helle: We do have a lot of other resources. It might look like we do just the standard part.
Shawn: I agree.
... If we add, second paragraph, "as part of W3C, the leading organization..." Is that okay?
Denis: I think it is an improvement
Helle: can you switch the 2 sentences
Shawn: I think we need to find accessibility up front
Denis: foundation of the web. Seems to bring up another meaning, http etc. If we use something else, maybe the sentence becomes longer
Shawn: What we want is: if someone doesn't know W3C, we want them to know that it is the fundamental body of the web
Denis: fundamental body on which the web is built ?
Liam: usually use: defacto standards body for the web
Shawn: Any other thoughts
... my earlier draft did not have standardization...
Liam: standards body that underpins the web
Shadi: leading international organization for underpinning the web
Liam: foundation for the
... is an international community that develops the standards that form the foundation of the web
Shawn: Not sure that it needs to have standards
Denis: corroborate, support
<Zakim> shadi, you wanted to ask other phrases for "gloabl leader"
Shadi: instead of trying to
describe W3C (may not be possible), is there a punchy phrase,
W3C the ......?
... e.g. the fundamental.... or foundational
... instead of organization, community?
Liam: it's a coordination role not a creation role
Shadi: it's a bit more : drives the web
Liam: It could come out as arrogant on W3C's part
<Zakim> hbj, you wanted to ask about standars
<shawn> as part of W3C, that leads the international community [to] standarize the foundation of the Open Web.
Helle: I think it's good to have standards aspect in this part. People are saying that W3C are not making standards. So, it's good to keep that part of the standarization. It's done through the bodies, members of the group. In that sense W3C is not so different from other standardization bodies. They building and working in the same way.
Shawn: see above
Denis: like the idea of "open"
<shawn> Open Web Platform
Shawn: does adding "platform" add to the confusion?
Denis: It's perhaps a more interesting way of explaining it
<shawn> W3C, the leading internatioal community that stadnardizes the foundatin of the OPen Web Platform
<shawn> W3C, the leading internatioal community that stadnardizes the OPen Web Platform
<shawn> W3C, the leading internatioal community that stadnardizes the foundatin of the OPen Web.
Shawn: Other thoughts?
Liam: Coordinate international web standards
<LiamM> W3C, the international coordinator for open web standards
Denis: the leading "international organization that develops ..."
<dboudreau> the leading
Vicki: me and Shawn were confused
Liam: the international organization for open web standards?
Shawn: taking off leading?
<dboudreau> the leading organization on open web standards?
<shawn> the interantional organizations for Open Web standards.
Liam: the international organization for open web standards
<shawn> the interantional organization for Open Web standards.
Denis: the international for web standards even if it doesn't develop the proprietary web standards
<shawn> [WAI...] is part of W3C, the international organization for Web standards.
Liam: main role is to make sure that there are web standards. In this way, not saying that they are the only
<LiamM> +2 for what Shadi said
Shawn: Any reactions?
Shadi: If we say that WAI develops resources and accessibility standards and it falls within the international organization of web standards. Seems okaxy.
<IanPouncey> WEB! standards
<LiamM> +1 to what Ian said
Shawn: Ok, anything else on that
... Shadi - your comments. Do you want to discuss the web accessibility basics?
... Accessibility Basics: do we want to go with the short hand leaving "web" off?
Shadi: My comment: skimming the flyer, understood that we provide accessibility basics, I don't think this is our primary work. I think in this particular bullet, it's important to have "web accessibility basics"
Denis: What do we gain by removing it?
Shadi: I think probably "web" was repeated several times.
Shawn: Anything else? Ok
... Other people are involved (marketing, staff etc.)
... The last bullet is "mobile and accessible". What we might develop is more clarity on how our existing guidelines apply to mobile. The question is this a good way to keep people's interest on what we currently have or are there other ways of saying it?
Liam: if we keep it ambiguous, won't disappoint anyone
Denis: Think the topic is large
enough. Anything that comes from MBP or the document that
bridges WCAG and that document..
... for future, could have a full flyer on it
<dboudreau> s / MBP / MWBP
Shadi: The convincing factor is to leave it ambiguous. Okay with that.
Vicki: I LOVE IT
Shawn: Having 2 QR codes an overkill?
Denis: Not an overkill. Might grow old fast. At some point, it might go out of trend.
Liam: Keep on for historical interest
Denis: Each resource has its own QR code
Shadi: Is that a typical use of
QR code? Don't often see flyers with more than one QR
... A typical flyer would only have one QR code rather than individual pages. I think the default function on most phones will automatically bookmark the page, so that would mean that 3 pages would be bookmarked. Loss of valuable space
Shawn: Neutral about 3 or 1.
Denis: Having 3, doesn't give me trouble. We are promoting 3 documents with those 3 codes.
Shawn: Any closing comments for
this version, primarily for CSUN and something south
... ok, thanks everyone for your input.
Shawn: Liam and/or Suzette would you like to update the group on where you are?
Liam: Sent out a number of
messages to various people, to get their take on it. I've had
some stuff back but I'm trying to put it together.
... No questions for the group. Have asked Ian who has some positive feedback. For Ian's action list.
Action point for Ian.
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - point
Suzete: I've joined the Web Ed community. Been looking at the material around, various attempts to produce curriculum. I can carry on reviewing material. Wonder if it's time to come up with scope of what we are trying to do.
Shawn: Regarding CS2 (didn't get the numebr).
Suzette: I didn't get too much information back from them. I can try and find out more. It would be worthwhile to see what is going on in that community. Thinking about who the users are and what are their needs.
Shawn: Would it be good for one of us to participate in? Suzette, do you have a feel for that?
Suzette: It would certainly be good to register our interest in that. I guess yes, it needs someone. Shall I do that?
Shawn: Wondering if I should go to the workshop at Kai (Cai?), that's Sharon's home town as well.
<scribe> ACTION: Shawn to follow up [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-98 - Follow up [on Shawn Henry - due 2012-02-24].
<suzette> CHI computer human interaction conference
Shawn: Wayne might be able to look at it from a different perspective.
<scribe> ACTION: Wayne to look into it [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-99 - Look into it [on Wayne Dick - due 2012-02-24].
<shawn> drop acction 99
<shawn> drop action 99
Shawn: Going back to Suzette's comments about the scope, a couple of updates: we did get some clarity on the existing material and timing. As a reminder, the stuff that is currently under the Web Community Group, the material related to web accessibility, some of that work will be wrapping up in a couple of months. For that material, the primary audience is develolpers in the field working as opposed to instructors. The other point is that we do have a traini
Suzette: just noticed in the wiki
some space for me to add info.
... There is a lot of WCAG 1 stuff in there. The material was written before WCAG 2 was published.
Shawn: Whilst some of it is good information, we can take what we want and start from scratch. However, in 1.5 months, we need to have something out otherwise they will want to use that old material. In the short term, we need to figure out what we want for accessibility, maybe a page which walks people to other resources. Not sure what that is but we need to define for this short term project.
Suzette: Your point to provide something which points to the valid material is good.
Shawn: Liam and Suzette, maybe you could get together and find an approach on that?
Shawn: Liam and Suzette, you can go ahead and add your action point :)
<shawn> existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility
<shawn> our wiki page http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/wiki/Curriculum_%26_Course_Materials
Shawn: whatever makes sense to you about scoping the short term project and how to approach it.
<suzette> ACTION: Liam, Suzette Scope and review or revise existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Liam,
<suzette> ACTION: Suzette Scope and review or revise existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-100 - Scope and review or revise existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility [on Suzette Keith - due 2012-02-24].
<suzette> ACTION: Liam Scope and review or revise existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2012/02/17-eo-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-101 - Scope and review or revise existing material http://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Main_Page#Accessibility [on Liam McGee - due 2012-02-24].
Shawn: we will probably meeting
next week. Probably, not meeting the week after but we will
... anything else on this point? Ok, done
Shawn: We are getting close to a nice acronymn. Shadi, would you like to brief us?
<shawn> Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology
Shadi: Website Accessibility Conformance Evaluation Methodology
Shadi: I like it because it has the critical words in there. It doesn't specifically call out WCAG 2 and it could have a methodology number of its own. There are a number of reasons it works in the shortest possible title. The acronymn from that is WACEM
Shadi: screen readers pronounce it differently.
Jennifer: not a make or break
Shadi: So, we could play around with the acronynm. Two questions: does the title work? a short name?
Denis: would be pronounced in French wa"ss"em. It wouldn't be a show stopper. I like what you say about the methodology number. Not convinced about web site as apposed to web. I feel in general comfortable about using that one.
Shadi: web is probably too broad, including static html. Many questions about the breadth of "web" (interfaces, applications etc.). Always came back to the fact that "web site" is easier to understand. Similar to WCAG use of web page. So we could have used something technically correct or we use web site.
Denis: Ok, understood.
<Zakim> shawn, you wanted to say title ideas with WCAG do not have version number with WCAG
Shadi: Everything is layman enough to be understood even if "web site" is a bit vague.
Deni: Even though we understand that WCAG is applicable to PDF as well, it's the same combat
Shadi: Any comments?
... Accessibility Conformance vs Evaluating Conformance
Shawn: Don't have any problem with "web site"
Shawn: My only concern is that "WACEM" is not a good acronymn. :) wackem with a pallet ?
<Sylvie> I have a pronounciation problem with WACEM and I found better to have ameaningful word as an acronym, which helps remember the name of the methodology.
Denis: Likes to wack people and
has the methodology to do that :)
... Is it a political issue?
Shawn: People have difficulty in pronouncing WCAG because they don't know how to pronounce it. This can be quite uncomfortable both for them, or for me. "WACEM" can be amusing for us. However, it could be taken negatively by people. So, in this group, we are very careful about the way we evaluate. It's a sensitive issue since there is a high potential for being negative.
Denis: If we drop "Conformance", then, it would be worse.
Shawn: We spoke about a short name which is not an acronynm.
Jennifer: I was thinking along those lines.
Shawn: AEM: Accessibility Evaluation Methodology pronounced AIM. Not too good (conflict with Webaim)
Denis: Need to have something short, e.g. for powerpoint.
Jennifer: The Methodology
<shawn> ACE MEthod
<LiamM> ACE Methodology
<shawn> ACE Method
Denis: ACEM : Accessibility Conformance Evaluation ... sorry ACE
Shawn: ACE Method
<dboudreau> +1 to ACEMethod
Vicki: also likes ACEMethod
Denis: Google results are not
... Google results are not good for ACEMethod
<LiamM> +1 ACME
<shawn> ACMEthod ACEMethod
Shawn: Shadi, what are your thoughts?
Shadi: I think we should continue
trying to find something. We're not there yet. Let's continue
brainstorming on short names.
... Look back at some of the ideas in the wiki.
<helle> there is a Danish product called Siteimprove
Shawn: Doesn't say anything about accessibility
Shawn: End of our time. Would love to have some more ideas about this.
Shawn: have been working with some folks on the CSUN panel. Will see if we can get Jennison to join us.
Jennifer: Do you want me to add a product for the curriculum people.
trackbot, end meeting