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Chatlog 2011-02-23
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# reconstructed by sandro -- we forgot to have RRSAgent present <sandro> PRESENT: Alex Hall, Antoine Zimmermann, Axel Polleres, Christopher Matheus, Dan Brickley, David Wood, Dieter Fensel, Fabien Gandon, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Jean-François Baget, Manu Sporny, Matteo Brunati, Mischa Tuffield, Nathan Rixham, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Pierre-Antoine Champin, Sandro Hawke, Scott Bauer, Souripriya Das, Thomas Steiner, Yves Raimond, Zhe Wu 15:51:23 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has now started 15:51:31 <Zakim> + +33.4.67.92.aaaa 15:52:51 <Zakim> + +43.512.507.aabb 15:53:48 <Zakim> +davidwood 15:54:07 <Zakim> +Scott_Bauer 15:54:14 <Zakim> +??P8 15:54:19 <webr3> zakim, i am ?? 15:54:19 <Zakim> +webr3; got it 15:54:21 <Zakim> +??P7 15:54:27 <Zakim> +Peter_Patel-Schneider 15:54:32 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip 15:54:32 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made 15:54:34 <Zakim> +Ivan 15:54:58 <mischat> zakim, i am ??P7 15:54:58 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 15:55:06 <JFB> 33.4.67.92 is Jean-François Baget, scribing... 15:55:07 <mischat> zakim mute me 15:55:12 <mischat> zakim, mute me 15:55:13 <Zakim> + +33.4.72.43.aacc 15:55:14 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 15:55:40 <pfps> people should mute whenever possible 15:55:45 <AZ> zakim, +33.4.72.43.aacc is me 15:55:45 <Zakim> +AZ; got it 15:55:52 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 15:55:53 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted 15:55:55 <ivan> zakim, mute me 15:55:55 <Zakim> Ivan should now be muted 15:56:03 <AZ> zakim, mute me 15:56:04 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted 15:56:06 <mischat> zakim, mute me 15:56:06 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 15:56:11 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:56:11 <Zakim> On the phone I see +33.4.67.92.aaaa, +43.512.507.aabb, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted) 15:56:13 <JFB> zakim, +33.4.67.92.aaaa is me 15:56:14 <Zakim> +JFB; got it 15:56:59 <JFB> zakim, who is on the phone? 15:56:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB, +43.512.507.aabb, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted) 15:57:47 <dfensel6_> +43.512.507 is dfensel6 (dieter fenel) 15:58:24 <dfensel6_> dfensel6 is my w3c nickname 15:58:35 <JFB> zakim, mute me 15:58:35 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted 15:58:52 <dfensel6_> I tried to save a character. 15:58:56 <mischat> zakim, 43.512.507 is dfensel6 15:58:56 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '43.512.507' 15:59:12 <Zakim> + +1.707.861.aadd 15:59:21 <dfensel6_> +43.512.507 is dfensel6 (dieter fensel) #15:59:24 <mischat> member:zakim, 43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6 15:59:44 <mischat> zakim, 43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6 15:59:44 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not recognize a party named '43.512.507.aabb' 15:59:47 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone 15:59:47 <Zakim> I don't understand 'who is on the phone', pfps 15:59:50 <Zakim> +Zhe_Wu 15:59:55 <gavinc> zakim, +1.707.861 is me 15:59:55 <Zakim> +gavinc; got it 15:59:56 <manu1> zakim, code? 15:59:56 <Zakim> +??P18 15:59:58 <webr3> zakim, +43.512.507.aabb is dfensel6 15:59:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 tel:+33.4.26.46.79.03 tel:+44.203.318.0479), manu1 16:00:00 <pfps> zakim, who is on the phone? 16:00:00 <Zakim> +dfensel6; got it 16:00:02 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc, Zhe_Wu, ??P18 16:00:05 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 16:00:05 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:00:06 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaee 16:00:12 <Zakim> +AxelPolleres 16:00:13 <gavinc> zakim, mute me 16:00:13 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted 16:00:48 <zwu2> zakim, zwu2 is Zhe_Wu 16:00:48 <Zakim> sorry, zwu2, I do not recognize a party named 'zwu2' 16:00:50 <Zakim> +Guus 16:01:00 <AlexHall> zakim, aaee is me 16:01:00 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it 16:01:02 <zwu2> zakim, Zhe_Wu is zwu2 16:01:02 <Zakim> +zwu2; got it 16:01:08 <zwu2> zakim, mute me 16:01:08 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted 16:01:16 <Zakim> +??P30 16:01:18 <Zakim> +Sandro 16:01:19 <manu1> zakim, I am ??P30 16:01:19 <Zakim> +manu1; got it 16:01:43 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:01:43 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P18, 16:01:46 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro 16:01:52 <mbrunati> q+ 16:01:57 <mbrunati> q- 16:02:03 <Guus> zakim, who is here? 16:02:03 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), ??P18, 16:02:06 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro 16:02:08 <Zakim> On IRC I see FabGandon, pchampin, AxelPolleres, zwu2, AlexHall, mbrunati, Guus, gavinc, tomayac, pfps, AZ, dfensel6_, hsbauer, JFB, domel, danbri, SteveH, ivan, mischat, cmatheus, 16:02:10 <Zakim> ... manu1, webr3, davidwood, yvesr, Zakim, sandro, trackbot 16:02:12 <Zakim> +[Sophia] 16:02:14 <Zakim> +??P34 16:02:19 <JFB> zakim, agenda? 16:02:19 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 16:02:21 <Zakim> 5. Establishment of initial task forces. We need task forces for the obligatory pieces of work: Subgraphs, Turtle, JSON [from davidwood] 16:02:23 <mbrunati> zakim, i am ??P18 16:02:24 <Zakim> +mbrunati; got it 16:02:28 <FabGandon> Zakim, +[Sophia] is me 16:02:28 <Zakim> sorry, FabGandon, I do not recognize a party named '+[Sophia]' 16:02:38 <Zakim> -??P34 16:02:44 <FabGandon> Zakim, [Sophia] is me 16:02:44 <Zakim> +FabGandon; got it 16:03:00 <Zakim> + +1.404.978.aaff - is perhaps Dzung_Tran? 16:03:02 <JFB> zakim, agenda? 16:03:02 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda: 16:03:04 <Zakim> 5. Establishment of initial task forces. We need task forces for the obligatory pieces of work: Subgraphs, Turtle, JSON [from davidwood] 16:03:15 <Zakim> +Souri 16:03:17 <sandro> zakim, who is on the call? 16:03:17 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6, davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, mischat (muted), Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan (muted), AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati, 16:03:21 <Zakim> ... AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri 16:03:32 <JFB> on the call and muted 16:03:32 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 16:03:43 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: davidwood (64%), mbrunati (4%), Guus (9%) 16:03:44 <JFB> zakim, unmute me 16:03:46 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted 16:04:04 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 16:04:04 <Zakim> +??P40 16:04:14 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dfensel6 (16%), davidwood (15%), JFB (21%), Guus (30%), ??P40 (9%) 16:04:21 <ivan> scribenick: JFB 16:04:23 <JFB> zakim, mute me 16:04:23 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted 16:04:28 <mbrunati> zakim, mute me 16:04:28 <Zakim> mbrunati should now be muted 16:04:37 <mbrunati> zakim, unmute me 16:04:37 <Zakim> mbrunati should no longer be muted 16:04:47 <sandro> zakim, Guus has DanBri 16:04:47 <Zakim> +DanBri; got it <sandro> topic: Admin 16:05:11 <JFB> 2nd telecon, agenda + 1 msg from peter 16:05:11 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P40 16:05:11 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P40', yvesr 16:05:15 <pfps> Minutes are fine. 16:05:17 <sandro> davidwood, please try zakim muting yourself -- I think you might be the source of echo. 16:05:28 <davidwood> Zakim, mute me 16:05:28 <Zakim> davidwood should now be muted 16:05:32 <JFB> objections to minutes from last agenda ? 16:05:34 <davidwood> The minutes are fine 16:05:43 <JFB> minutes accepted 16:05:44 <mbrunati> minutes ok 16:05:49 <sandro> (yes, davidwood, that did it. you might try calling back.) 16:05:54 <davidwood> ok 16:06:01 <JFB> no actions from previous telecon 16:06:02 <yvesr> Zakim, ??P40 is yvesr 16:06:03 <Zakim> +yvesr; got it 16:06:03 <Zakim> -davidwood 16:06:07 <danbri_> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0040.html 16:06:19 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 16:06:21 <Zakim> +davidwood 16:06:30 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: dfensel6 (16%), Guus (46%) 16:06:30 <ivan> -> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/ tracker link <sandro> subtopic: Raising Issues 16:06:32 <JFB> link to the issue tracker (http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/) 16:06:54 <sandro> nope, actually I think dfensel6_ is that source of echo. Dieter, can you try "zakim, mute me" ? 16:07:05 <dfensel6_> zakim, mute me 16:07:05 <Zakim> sorry, dfensel6_, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:07:07 <JFB> issue tracker: 1st step raise an issue 16:07:19 <JFB> becomes open when accepted at telecon 16:07:46 <sandro> zakim, dfensel6 is dfensel6_ 16:07:46 <Zakim> +dfensel6_; got it 16:07:55 <sandro> zakim, mute dfensel6_ 16:07:55 <Zakim> dfensel6_ should now be muted 16:08:05 <JFB> use the products when defining an issue 16:08:16 <JFB> question? 16:08:22 <mischat> any questions about the issue tracker ? 16:08:52 <pfps> change "General" to "Misc"? 16:08:54 <JFB> question (who?) what for RDF general ? 16:09:04 <ivan> zakim, unmute me 16:09:04 <Zakim> Ivan should no longer be muted 16:09:07 <JFB> answer: anything that does not fit anywhere else 16:09:14 <Zakim> -mischat 16:09:24 <davidwood> chair Guus 16:09:29 <sandro> s/question (who?) /sandro:/ 16:09:39 <davidwood> chair: Guus 16:09:52 <sandro> s/answer:/guus: answer:/ 16:09:53 <JFB> Guus: (just to give everything a problem) 16:09:56 <Zakim> +??P7 16:09:57 <AxelPolleres> I assume issues are in general added by chairs only? Can we refer to particular products in mails, etc.? 16:10:01 <JFB> zakim, unmute me 16:10:01 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted 16:10:10 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me 16:10:10 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 16:10:14 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:10:14 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:10:17 <JFB> zakim, mute me 16:10:17 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted 16:10:19 <JFB> zakim, unmute me 16:10:19 <Zakim> JFB should no longer be muted 16:10:34 <JFB> zakim, who is on the phone? 16:10:34 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB, dfensel6_ (muted), Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati, AlexHall, AxelPolleres, Guus, manu1, 16:10:37 <Zakim> ... Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, yvesr, davidwood, mischat (muted) 16:10:38 <Zakim> Guus has DanBri 16:10:39 <davidwood> AxelPolleres: Issues may be added by anyone, but will be discussed as a group. 16:10:40 <manu1> q+ to ask if it's okay to raise issues now? #16:10:49 <JFB>Topic: Task Forces 16:10:51 <ivan> zakim, mischat has also Jeremy 16:10:51 <Zakim> +also, Jeremy; got it 16:10:56 <AxelPolleres> david, ok #16:11:05 <JFB> Turtle 16:11:17 <danbri> peter's mail as mentioned by Guus - http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2011Feb/0050.html 16:12:03 <JFB> Guus: All group members can raise an issue, then it will be discussed at telecon 16:12:13 <sandro> guus: Let's go ahead and let people RAISE issues themselves, but don't go too crazy with it. 16:12:17 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me 16:12:17 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as mischat, mischat 16:12:38 <Zakim> +PatH 16:12:52 <JFB>Topic: Turtle Task Force 16:13:04 <AxelPolleres> q+ how to relate to products in Issues/mails? 16:13:10 <sandro> (Note that RAISING an issue does not make it OPEN. The chairs turn RAISED issues into OPEN ones) 16:13:14 <ivan> ack manu1 16:13:14 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to ask if it's okay to raise issues now? 16:13:18 <danbri> Re Turtle, http://www.w3.org/2009/12/rdf-ws/papers/ws11 "Turtle needs better alignment with the SPARQL triples pattern language since there are differences in QName / Curie formats as well as some other minor differences." 16:13:20 <ivan> ack how 16:13:20 <Zakim> how, you wanted to relate to products in Issues/mails? 16:13:34 <danbri> in http://www.dajobe.org/2004/01/turtle/2006-12-04/#sec-diff-sparql differences with sparql are listed; in http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/ (later doc) not so much detail. 16:13:44 <yvesr> danbri: and prefix definitions 16:13:53 <manu1> +1 for using the TURTLE Team Submission as the starting point. 16:13:56 <danbri> ah no, it's here http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/turtle/#sec-diff-sparql 16:14:00 <ivan> q+ 16:14:07 <yvesr> +1 16:14:41 <webr3> ed draft: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ 16:14:47 <JFB> (who's speaking?) 16:14:50 <danbri> q+ to ask if we have SPARQL WG members here; could SPARQL 1.1 and Turtle converge with a few tweaks on either side? 16:14:59 <JFB> thks 16:15:21 <Zakim> +??P20 16:15:26 <mischat> that page is not public 16:15:30 <AxelPolleres> danbri, the prefix syntax is the major diff, isn't it? 16:15:59 <cmatheus> zakim, ??P20 is me 16:15:59 <Zakim> +cmatheus; got it 16:16:05 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ -> Insufficient Access Privileges 16:16:06 <danbri> (eg. literal subjects are permitted in sparql too, in theory at least) 16:16:07 <webr3> see D changes too 16:16:19 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammar-parsing 16:16:26 <mischat> Section 4.5 ^^ 16:16:45 <yvesr> manu1: works for me 16:16:59 <JFB> Section 4.5 of http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-grammar-parsing Parsing turtle 16:17:09 <sandro> Here is a color-coded diff: http://www.w3.org/People/Sandro/turtle-diff 16:17:58 <JFB> X suggests revised version of that document as a atsarting point 16:18:07 <ivan> s/X/Pat/ 16:18:08 <JFB> (pat hayes) 16:18:10 <sandro> PROPOSED: use http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ as the starting point for the Turtle work 16:18:15 <manu1> +1 16:18:17 <ivan> +1 16:18:18 <webr3> +1 16:18:18 <FabGandon> +1 16:18:20 <gavinc> +q 16:18:21 <JFB> +1 16:18:21 <danbri> +1 16:18:22 <mbrunati> +1 16:18:22 <tomayac> +1 16:18:23 <ivan> ack ivan 16:18:23 <mischat> +1 16:18:26 <AZ> +1 16:18:28 <sandro> RESOLVED: use http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/ as the starting point for the Turtle work 16:18:30 <yvesr> +1 16:18:37 <JFB> accepted 16:18:50 <gavinc> -q 16:18:52 <JFB> zakim, mute me 16:18:52 <Zakim> JFB should now be muted 16:19:17 <sandro> manu1, there is something bizarre going on with access control. Try http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/Overview.html 16:19:18 <danbri> ack danbri? 16:19:26 <AxelPolleres> q+ 16:19:33 <ivan> ack danbri 16:19:33 <Zakim> danbri, you wanted to ask if we have SPARQL WG members here; could SPARQL 1.1 and Turtle converge with a few tweaks on either side? 16:19:43 <mischat> SteveH is 16:19:47 <danbri> audible? 16:19:50 <mischat> here and on both groups 16:19:55 <yvesr> NickH is 16:19:58 <danbri> great 16:19:59 <sandro> danbri: do we have SPARQL folks in this WG? 16:20:02 <Souri> I am 16:20:02 <JFB> Is there any SPARQL 1.1 members in the WG? 16:20:10 <ivan> ack AxelPolleres 16:20:27 <JFB> I don't hear anything.... 16:20:34 <sandro> AxelPolleres: Me, LeeF, Souri, (Sandro) 16:20:41 <danbri> axelpolleres - you are a little quiet 16:21:14 <ivan> q+ 16:21:27 <JFB> Axel, I already got volume problems... now I don't hear anything 16:21:28 <pfps> It would be *very* nice if the two syntaxes aligned completely. 16:21:31 <mischat> +1 to danbri's pov 16:21:34 <davidwood> +1 16:21:35 <FabGandon> +1 to align Turtle and SPARQL 1.1 16:21:42 <AxelPolleres> I'd propose to go for SPARQL's prefix syntax :-) 16:21:56 <yvesr> that'll break a lot of parsers though... 16:21:57 <pfps> axel: SPARQL syntax and (our) Turtle syntax should align 16:22:00 <JFB> Aligning sparql1.1 and turtle 16:22:26 <sandro> ISSUE: Is TURTLE the same as SPARQL 1.1 triple syntax? 16:22:26 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1 - Is TURTLE the same as SPARQL 1.1 triple syntax? ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/1/edit . 16:22:27 <PatHayes> +1 to dan's point. And it applies not just to syntx details but also to terminology. Ideally, one of these specs should simply reference the other as normative. 16:22:28 <ivan> q- 16:22:36 <JFB> is turtle the sandrome as sparql 1.1 turtle syntax? 16:22:36 <ivan> Note: http://www.w3.org/2010/01/Turtle/#sec-diff-sparql 16:22:55 <ivan> q+ 16:23:00 <AxelPolleres> q? 16:23:30 <ivan> q- 16:23:37 <JFB> Guus: we'll move to this on the next weeks 16:23:46 <AxelPolleres> should be noted that the grammaer in SPARQL1.1 is practically frozen at this point... so if changed form SPARQL's side would be needed, then they'd need to be raised ASAP 16:24:20 <sandro> ivan: Eric Prud'hommeaux was looking at the comparison to SPARQL. The IRIs seem to be the difference. (aside from PREFIX, which is an obvious difference.) And whole IRI is a general issue for this group. 16:24:21 <mischat> +1 to ivan 16:24:32 <JFB> Dan: the syntax with ??? is the main issue, central to this WG 16:24:40 <JFB> IRI 16:24:44 <danbri> rrsagent, pointer? 16:24:50 <sandro> s/???/IRI/ 16:24:51 <ivan> s/Dan:/Ivan:/ 16:25:01 <sandro> s/Dan/Ivan/ 16:25:08 <sandro> zakim, where is cygri? 16:25:08 <Zakim> sorry, sandro, I do not understand your question 16:25:09 <Zakim> -mischat 16:25:16 <sandro> zakim, is cygri here? 16:25:16 <Zakim> sandro, I do not see Cygri anywhere 16:25:19 <AxelPolleres> ... would be good if all the points that are relevant here would be collected and discussed soon. 16:25:21 <AlexHall> i'm here 16:25:28 <PatHayes> Alexs point is important. We should rapidly seek any likely future point where our needs might cause us to deviate from SPARQL syntax and bring that to the front of our queue. 16:25:32 <AxelPolleres> (I can ping cygri) 16:25:44 <PatHayes> Axel's point, sorry. 16:25:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-rdf-wg-irc 16:25:58 <Zakim> +??P7 16:26:17 <mischat> zakim, ??P7 is me 16:26:17 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 16:26:18 <gavinc> Did I miss how we were supposed to "Sign up" for a Task Force? 16:26:21 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:26:21 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:26:38 <JFB> Signing up for the task forces 16:27:04 <sandro> yes, gavinc, the chairs asked us to do that. we're still discovering what that means.... 16:27:26 <gavinc> Andy sent regrets last week 16:27:42 <JFB> zakim, who's on the phone? 16:27:42 <Zakim> On the phone I see JFB (muted), dfensel6_ (muted), Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ (muted), gavinc (muted), zwu2 (muted), mbrunati, AlexHall, AxelPolleres, 16:27:46 <Zakim> ... Guus, manu1, Sandro, FabGandon, Dzung_Tran?, Souri, yvesr, davidwood, PatH, cmatheus, mischat (muted) 16:27:48 <Zakim> Guus has DanBri 16:27:59 <zwu2> I will make a decision a bit later 16:28:24 <JFB> decide rapidly if we want to invite other experts 16:28:29 <yvesr> inviting dajobe as an invited expert? 16:28:46 <danbri> +1 on dajobe if he has time 16:28:59 <yvesr> ivan: good 16:29:22 <danbri> q? 16:29:41 <JFB> Topic: JSON Task Force 16:29:46 <Zakim> -dfensel6_ 16:29:52 <JFB> issue: identifying a document 16:29:52 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-2 - Identifying a document ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/2/edit . 16:30:03 <manu1> q+ to suggest discussion and then possibly JSON-LD spec. 16:30:26 <yvesr> talis json as a starting point 16:31:23 <JFB> Guus: as a personal opinion , Talis 16:31:41 <Zakim> +dfensel6_ 16:31:44 <JFB> serialization is less useful than ... 16:32:16 <JFB> we should aim at the web authoring community 16:32:33 <AZ> s/Guus/davidwood/ 16:32:37 <gavinc> That does seem to cross the boundries with a possible recharter of the RDFa WG? 16:33:16 <webr3> q+ to say we have two needs 16:33:20 <JFB> Manu: basic questions, then decide which document 16:33:35 <JFB> get rdf into hands of non rdf people 16:33:37 <tomayac> +1 for focusing on john doe web dev, do not req. rdf knowledge imho. 16:33:44 <PatHayes> David: are your two options necessarily divergent? Or can we do both? 16:34:11 <JFB> give a limited subset to rdf developers 16:34:24 <sandro> s/David:/David,/ 16:34:32 <PatHayes> Tnx 16:34:47 <PatHayes> David, see earlier IRC line. 16:34:55 <sandro> zakim, who is talking? 16:35:09 <Zakim> sandro, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Guus (19%), AxelPolleres (5%) 16:35:29 <davidwood> PatHayes: We could do both, if we want to serve both the SemWeb and Web author communities. That seems to me to be within the charter (and possibly a good idea). 16:35:44 <JFB> sandro: ? your view on your input and lightweight json 16:35:45 <webr3> q- 16:35:59 <cmatheus> +1 pat 16:36:04 <webr3> q+ 16:36:08 <gavinc> Does the JSON syntax need to be the easy to use form? 16:36:09 <manu1> q- 16:36:20 <PatHayes> Todays burden is tomorrow's opportunity :-) 16:36:20 <JFB> Manu: limited subset to give to RDF developers, that's the important point 16:36:45 <JFB> zakim, who is talking? 16:36:56 <Zakim> JFB, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: webr3 (99%) 16:37:19 <JFB> Nathan: simple object view of rdf 16:37:20 <sandro> sandro: I think the most import thing is is giving JSON users easy access to RDF 16:37:42 <Guus> q? 16:37:49 <ivan> ack webr3 16:37:50 <manu1> I have strong feelings against another full-blown serialization of RDF in JSON (machine-optimized version). 16:37:52 <JFB> one version for machines, one for humans 16:38:17 <PatHayes> sandro, I agree, but hope that this could be a step towards a fuller serialization rather than incompatible with it. 16:38:30 <manu1> I think TURTLE is a fantastic full-blown serialization of RDF (that is both human and machine-optimized) - I don't think JSON needs to re-invent that wheel. 16:39:02 <davidwood> sandro: It would be nice to have one OWL, too :) 16:39:06 <yvesr> maybe the answer is to not 'restrict' json but rather add a optional 'uri' attribute on JSON objects allowing to extract RDF from JSON? (GRDDL for JSON?) 16:39:35 <manu1> +1 to Sandro's point - we need to come up with something that can be minimal and scale to full-blown. 16:40:31 <sandro> manu1: Yes, JSON-LD has that design goal Sandro is talking about, where you can start small and simple, but it expands when you want full RDF. 16:40:34 <PatHayes> Sounds like we are all in violent agreement. 16:40:56 <JFB> Guus: take another week to discuss contribute 16:40:56 <gavinc> As long as we don't mention prefixes ;) 16:41:04 <webr3> PatHayes, it does - all have the same end goals 16:41:08 <Zakim> -mischat 16:41:22 <manu1> I also want to point out that there are some ugly things in JSON-LD - the basics work, but it's not done (because we wanted input from RDF WG). 16:41:32 <JFB> Then we will take the starting point that best fits our goals 16:41:39 <JFB> in one or two weeks 16:41:44 <sandro> guus: In the next week or two, let's decide on a starting point. 16:42:04 <Zakim> +??P3 16:42:16 <mischat> zakim , ??P3 is me 16:42:20 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:42:20 <Zakim> sorry, mischat, I do not know which phone connection belongs to you 16:42:40 <manu1> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF-JSON 16:42:45 <mischat> zakim, ??P3 is me 16:42:45 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 16:42:48 <mischat> zakim, mute me 16:42:48 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 16:42:49 <manu1> (I don't have the link to the big page yet) 16:43:13 <JFB> Will contribute to the JSON wiki: Nathan, manu, Andy?, ??? 16:43:22 <ivan> s/???/Thomas/ 16:43:27 <mischat> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/TF_interests 16:43:54 <JFB> + david and sandro 16:44:16 <cmatheus> I also volunteer to be in on JSON task force 16:44:26 <JFB> + cmatheus 16:44:32 <mbrunati> clear 16:45:02 <JFB>Topic: Graphs Task Force 16:45:11 <AlexHall> q+ 16:45:16 <JFB> a bit more complicated 16:45:58 <manu1> q+ to chat about GRAPH work 16:46:01 <PatHayes> q+ 16:46:16 <JFB> questions we should ask? 16:46:17 <gavinc> Part of the issue may be that even without a spec people have been using them? And SPARQL does have a spec for how GRAPH works with it? 16:46:17 <danbri> q+ to characterise the sparql approach as 'wrapping something around RDF-as-is' 16:46:37 <sandro> q? 16:46:47 <gavinc> Jeremy is under the weather 16:46:49 <danbri> q? 16:47:01 <ivan> ack AlexHall 16:47:03 <JFB> Alex: 16:47:09 <pfps> pfps: I'm not particularly happy with any of the starting documents for graphs. 16:47:31 <sandro> AlexHall: I don't see a clear statement of what the problem we're trying to solve is 16:47:34 <JFB> what is the pb we're trying to solve? 16:47:36 <pfps> +1 to AlexHall 16:47:40 <sandro> +1 AlexHall Let's Start with Use Cases 16:47:46 <PatHayes> +1 to AlexHall 16:47:53 <pfps> q+ 16:47:54 <webr3> +1 to Axel (andFabgandon) 16:48:11 <pfps> q+ to try to figure out *why* we are going beyond triples 16:48:13 <yvesr> is SPARQL actually properly defining graphs anywhere? 16:48:13 <sandro> q+ to argue for use cases 16:48:18 <ivan> ack manu1 16:48:18 <Zakim> manu1, you wanted to chat about GRAPH work 16:48:22 <JFB> Manu: 16:48:34 <JFB> digital signatures on data 16:48:50 <JFB> graphs that change over time 16:48:53 <sandro> manu: We want named graphs and graph literals for digital signatures, and in financial services we need a way to freeze graphs and talk about their change over time. 16:49:07 <AxelPolleres> one need is to have "hook" for saying something about graphs/sets or triples, such as signatures (as Manu) mentions, temporal and other annotaitons.... especially as the workshop has pointed in the direciton of dprecating reification 16:49:08 <sandro> manu: Nathan did a lot of work on this for the RDFa API 16:49:10 <pfps> here we go ... named graphs for attribution vs named graphs for intent 16:49:18 <danbri> nearby: Toby's RDFa draft, http://buzzword.org.uk/2009/rdfa4/spec 16:49:29 <Guus> q? 16:49:36 <PatHayes> Also, there is right now no such thing as a graph that changes with time. 16:49:54 <danbri> q- 16:49:59 <sandro> PatHayes, there multiple meanings of the word "graph" :-) 16:50:00 <JFB> we should go with an initial document (condensed use cases?) 16:50:18 <sandro> q- 16:50:30 <pfps> q- as the discussion is bringing up the divergence 16:50:34 <pfps> q- 16:50:45 <JFB> Pat Hayes: 16:51:06 <sandro> PatHayes: I want to emphasize what Alex said. The various proposals are solving subtely different problems. 16:51:09 <JFB> various proposals solve different problems 16:51:10 <ivan> ack PatHayes 16:51:12 <sandro> q+ 16:51:23 <JFB> need clarification 16:51:33 <manu1> I agree, we do need clarifications on basic RDF concepts - merging graphs, etc. 16:51:36 <pfps> +1 to Pat's call for clarification 16:51:38 <sandro> pat: if a graph gets merged into a big triple store, can I still find it 16:51:44 <JFB> example: is a merged graph still an identifiable graph 16:51:53 <danbri> +1 16:51:53 <sandro> pat: and manu said graphs change with time, but they can't. 16:51:56 <gavinc> +1 16:52:03 <JFB> in rdf graphs are sets that don't change 16:52:04 <zwu2> +1 PatHayes 16:52:12 <sandro> q- 16:52:30 <FabGandon> +1 to use cases 16:52:32 <sandro> pat: we need a collection of clear use cases 16:52:41 <JFB> consensus on the usefulness of use cases? 16:52:42 <sandro> q? 16:52:44 <ivan> q+ 16:52:48 <pfps> I don't know about a *large* collection of use cases - perhaps a moderate number of use cases would be better 16:52:51 <danbri> nearby: w3c provenance incubator report: http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/prov/XGR-prov-20101214/ (and a WG is currently being proposed) 16:52:52 <PatHayes> Pfps, then you need to check your set theory books again :-) 16:53:02 <danbri> check the XG report for use cases 16:53:14 <sandro> I'd like a *small* and *succinct* collection of use cases, if that's at all possible. 16:53:21 <AxelPolleres> �Are you talking about mutable graph stores? please cf. the work in SPARQL1.1 http://www.w3.org/2009/sparql/docs/http-rdf-update/ (note that this is an Editor's draft) 16:53:30 <yvesr> we (bbc) can contribute use-cases 16:53:34 <AxelPolleres> +1 to ivan 16:53:37 <JFB> can someone explain the way sparqle uses named grzaphs? 16:53:48 <AxelPolleres> q+ 16:53:49 <PatHayes> pfps, maybe not, but right now thats what the specs say. 16:53:49 <sandro> s/can/ivan: can/ 16:53:54 <FabGandon> +1 to link to GRAPH / FROM / FROM NAME 16:53:54 <sandro> ack ivan 16:54:02 <ivan> ack ivan 16:54:02 <Guus> ack 16:54:13 <JFB> Ivan, then... 16:54:15 <Guus> ack 16:54:28 <Guus> ack AxelPolleres 16:55:14 <sandro> AxelPolleres: SPARQL has datasets which are a good basis for this work. Also, "changes of graphs" are addressed in SPARQL 1.1 update. 16:55:50 <JFB> action for use case format 16:55:50 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - for 16:56:14 <JFB> who? 16:56:16 <PatHayes> sandro, our work is to fix RDF. Right now the RDF specs say a grraph is a set. Sets do not change with time. SPARQL can say what it likes, but if it says a set can change with time then it is just flat wrong. 16:56:20 <JFB> Fabien 16:56:22 <gavinc> Willing to provide some use cases as well 16:56:36 <ivan> action: Guus to provide a use case format 16:56:36 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1 - Provide a use case format [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-02]. 16:56:40 <JFB> and Gavin 16:57:21 <Zakim> -mischat 16:57:21 <JFB> Fabien, Manu and Gavin will contribute 16:57:26 <manu1> ACTION: Manu to provide use cases for temporal graphs and digital signatures on graphs. 16:57:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-2 - Provide use cases for temporal graphs and digital signatures on graphs. [on Manu Sporny - due 2011-03-02]. 16:57:34 <ivan> action: Fabien to provide a use case for graphs 16:57:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3 - Provide a use case for graphs [on Fabien Gandon - due 2011-03-02]. 16:57:38 <danbri> action: danbri, draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work 16:57:38 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - danbri, 16:57:44 <danbri> action: danbri draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work 16:57:44 <trackbot> Created ACTION-4 - Draft a use case for named graphs from FOAF work [on Dan Brickley - due 2011-03-02]. 16:58:15 <yvesr> action: yvesr draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work 16:58:15 <trackbot> Created ACTION-5 - Draft a use case for named graphs from BBC work [on Yves Raimond - due 2011-03-02]. 16:58:16 <gavinc> I'm happy to provide the ones from Jermey 16:58:18 <webr3> I'll take up an action to write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the approaches, and possible tie to the use cases others write up (which falls where) - if that's useful 16:58:23 <ivan> action: PatHayes to provide a use case for graphs 16:58:23 <trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - PatHayes 16:58:25 <Zakim> +Luca 16:58:25 <JFB> list of use cases: Jeremy, PAt 16:58:41 <pchampin> zakim, Luca is me 16:58:41 <Zakim> +pchampin; got it 16:58:50 <ivan> action: hayes to provide use case for graphs 16:58:50 <trackbot> Created ACTION-6 - Provide use case for graphs [on Patrick Hayes - due 2011-03-02]. 16:59:29 <webr3> action: nathan to write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the common approaches (named/literal) 16:59:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-7 - Write a wiki page clarifying the difference in the common approaches (named/literal) [on Nathan Rixham - due 2011-03-02]. 16:59:39 <ivan> action: bauer to provide a use case for graphs 16:59:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-8 - Provide a use case for graphs [on Scott Bauer - due 2011-03-02]. 16:59:54 <Zakim> +??P41 17:00:11 <mischat> zakim, ??P41 is me 17:00:12 <Zakim> +mischat; got it 17:00:13 <dfensel6_> yes 17:00:18 <mischat> zakim, mute me 17:00:18 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 17:00:20 <dfensel6_> zakim, unmute 17:00:21 <Zakim> I don't understand 'unmute', dfensel6_ 17:00:31 <dfensel6_> yes 17:00:42 <JFB> use cases: olivier corby will surely contribute, and fensel 17:01:01 <ivan> action: hall to provide a revelytrix use case for graphs 17:01:01 <trackbot> Created ACTION-9 - Provide a revelytrix use case for graphs [on Alex Hall - due 2011-03-02]. 17:01:08 <mischat> zakim, unmute me 17:01:12 <Zakim> mischat should no longer be muted 17:01:24 <mischat> zakim, mute me 17:01:24 <Zakim> mischat should now be muted 17:01:47 <ivan> action: pfps to come up with something on use cases for graphs 17:01:47 <trackbot> Created ACTION-10 - Come up with something on use cases for graphs [on Peter Patel-Schneider - due 2011-03-02]. 17:02:16 <yvesr> q+ 17:02:20 <mischat> action: mischat to provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH 17:02:20 <trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Provide Garlik pov re: use-cases with SteveH [on Mischa Tuffield - due 2011-03-02]. 17:02:58 <JFB> Nathan starts wikipage for use cases? 17:03:24 <AZ> I'm here 17:03:33 <AZ> zakim, unmute me 17:03:33 <Zakim> AZ should no longer be muted 17:03:38 <yvesr> q- 17:04:00 <ivan> q+ 17:04:27 <AZ> zakim, mute me 17:04:27 <Zakim> AZ should now be muted 17:04:39 <FabGandon> +1 to link to Provenance XG 17:04:49 <ivan> action: guus to talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs 17:04:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-12 - Talk to paul groth to get a provenance use case for graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2011-03-02]. 17:04:55 <mischat> +1 to liase with pgroth 17:05:11 <webr3> q.. i can still add use cases without taking on an action to do so, yes? 17:06:13 <PatHayes> I am muted. I swear, I am muted. 17:06:28 <JFB> Other problems to address? 17:08:18 <danbri> issue: Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) 17:08:18 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-3 - Between us, we need to study the feedback we got via http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-rdf-comments/ on the previous round of specs (and errata) ; please complete additional details at http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/3/edit . 17:08:23 <Zakim> -yvesr 17:08:24 <Zakim> -zwu2 17:08:24 <Zakim> -davidwood 17:08:26 <Zakim> -PatH 17:08:29 <mbrunati> ok, bye 17:08:30 <Zakim> -dfensel6_ 17:08:32 <Zakim> -manu1 #17:08:34 <Zakim> -Dzung_Tran? 17:08:35 <AZ> bye 17:08:36 <Zakim> -Sandro 17:08:40 <Zakim> -AlexHall 17:08:42 <ivan> zakim, drop me 17:08:42 <Zakim> -Souri 17:08:44 <Zakim> -Peter_Patel-Schneider 17:08:46 <Zakim> -Guus 17:08:50 <Zakim> -cmatheus 17:08:52 <Zakim> -JFB 17:08:55 <Zakim> -webr3 17:08:56 <Zakim> -gavinc 17:08:58 <Zakim> -AxelPolleres 17:09:01 <Zakim> -mbrunati 17:09:02 <Zakim> -mischat 17:09:05 <Zakim> -Scott_Bauer 17:09:06 <Zakim> Ivan is being disconnected 17:09:08 <Zakim> -Ivan 17:09:10 <Zakim> -AZ 17:09:12 <Zakim> -FabGandon 17:09:14 <Zakim> -pchampin 17:09:16 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended 17:09:19 <Zakim> Attendees were davidwood, Scott_Bauer, webr3, Peter_Patel-Schneider, Ivan, AZ, JFB, +1.707.861.aadd, gavinc, +1.443.212.aaee, AxelPolleres, AlexHall, zwu2, Sandro, manu1, mbrunati, 17:09:21 <Zakim> ... FabGandon, +1.404.978.aaff, Souri, DanBri, yvesr, dfensel6_, also, Jeremy, PatH, cmatheus, mischat, pchampin 17:12:28 <sandro> JFB, there was a mistake made in the setup for the meeting which will complicate the next step with scribing -- I'll take care of it, then send you email. 17:12:41 <sandro> (not your mistake -- a chairs/staff mistake) 17:13:09 <danbri> (rrsagent missing?) 17:13:22 <sandro> yep :) 17:13:25 <davidwood> ugh! 17:13:28 <davidwood> Sorry 17:13:39 <davidwood> Thanks, Sandro 17:16:53 <danbri> re json, ... do / in URIs need to be escaped? 17:17:06 <danbri> i've seen http:\/\/ but not sure if mandatory 17:18:04 <webr3> danbri, in JSON yes, but many author JSON as JS objects then JSON.encode it (which does that) 17:18:27 <sandro> danbri, you mean quotes are not being used? 17:19:39 <danbri> with quotes 17:20:13 <danbri> i guess i saw some examples without the escaping 17:20:26 <webr3> well, it's optional infact 17:20:38 <danbri> gotta run 17:20:39 <webr3> but \ always needs encoded (not /) 17:21:13 <webr3> just for anybody following valid: { "foo": "http://example.org/" } 17:22:12 <webr3> also valid: { "foo": "http:\/\/example.org\/" } 17:22:38 <webr3> invalid: { "foo": "\wrong slash\" } 17:23:16 <davidwood> yeah, ok