RDF Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 21 March 2012

Seen
Alex Hall, Andy Seaborne, Antoine Zimmermann, Arnaud Le Hors, Charles Greer, David Wood, Eric Prud'hommeaux, Gavin Carothers, Guus Schreiber, Ivan Herman, Lee Feigenbaum, Nicholas Humfrey, Patrick Hayes, Peter Patel-Schneider, Richard Cyganiak, Sandro Hawke, Steve Harris, Ted Thibodeau, Zhe Wu
Scribe
Eric Prud'hommeaux
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. Resolve Issue-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri link
Topics
15:01:12 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-rdf-wg-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/21-rdf-wg-irc

15:01:14 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:01:16 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 73394

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be 73394

15:01:16 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, trackbot; I see SW_RDFWG()11:00AM scheduled to start now

15:01:17 <trackbot> Meeting: RDF Working Group Teleconference
15:01:17 <trackbot> Date: 21 March 2012
15:01:34 <gavinc> Zakim, this is 73394

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, this is 73394

15:01:36 <Zakim> ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, gavinc; that matches SW_RDFWG()11:00AM

15:01:49 <davidwood> Zakim, who is on the phone?

David Wood: Zakim, who is on the phone?

15:01:52 <Zakim> +Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: +Guus_Schreiber

15:01:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, bhyland, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, bhyland, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber

15:02:03 <davidwood> Zakim, bhyland is me

David Wood: Zakim, bhyland is me

15:02:08 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:02:14 <Zakim> +davidwood; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +davidwood; got it

15:02:27 <Zakim> +cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: +cgreer

15:02:42 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:02:46 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:02:48 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip

Ivan Herman: zakim, dial ivan-voip

15:02:48 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, ??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, ??P25

15:02:49 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P25 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P25 is me

15:02:56 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, ivan; the call is being made

15:02:57 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it

15:02:59 <Zakim> +Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: +Ivan

15:03:02 <Zakim> On IRC I see AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH, trackbot, manu,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH, trackbot, manu,

15:03:06 <Zakim> ... sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... sandro, ericP

15:03:13 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aabb

15:03:17 <AlexHall> zakim, aabb is me

Alex Hall: zakim, aabb is me

15:03:18 <Zakim> +AlexHall; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AlexHall; got it

15:03:26 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:03:32 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:03:32 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:03:33 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:03:34 <zwu2> zakim, code?

Zhe Wu: zakim, code?

15:03:36 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:03:37 <Guus> zakim, who is here?

Guus Schreiber: zakim, who is here?

15:03:38 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), zwu2

15:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted)

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see gavinc, davidwood, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, AlexHall, MacTed (muted)

15:04:17 <gavinc> http://www.random.org/coins/

Gavin Carothers: http://www.random.org/coins/

15:04:19 <Zakim> On IRC I see zwu2, AlexHall, AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see zwu2, AlexHall, AndyS1, SteveH, cgreer, Zakim, Guus, RRSAgent, Souri, Arnaud, gavinc, mischat, pfps, MacTed, LeeF, AndyS, ivan, mdmdm, yvesr, manu1, davidwood, NickH,

15:04:24 <Zakim> ... trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP

Zakim IRC Bot: ... trackbot, manu, sandro, ericP

15:04:34 <Zakim> +zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: +zwu2

15:04:50 <Guus> any volunteer for scribing?

Guus Schreiber: any volunteer for scribing?

15:05:26 <Zakim> +??P36

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P36

15:05:26 <Zakim> +LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: +LeeF

15:05:33 <SteveH> Zakim, ??P36 is me

Steve Harris: Zakim, ??P36 is me

15:05:33 <Zakim> +SteveH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +SteveH; got it

15:05:52 <ericP> You flipped 1 coin of type Polish 5 Złoty:

Eric Prud'hommeaux: You flipped 1 coin of type Polish 5 Złoty:

15:06:33 <Zakim> +??P38

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P38

15:06:41 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

15:06:43 <ericP> scribenick: ericP

(Scribe set to Eric Prud'hommeaux)

15:06:56 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:06:58 <NickH> Zakim, ??P38 is me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, ??P38 is me

15:06:58 <Zakim> +NickH; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +NickH; got it

15:07:03 <NickH> Zakim, mute me

Nicholas Humfrey: Zakim, mute me

15:07:03 <Zakim> NickH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: NickH should now be muted

15:07:07 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (7%), ??P38 (15%), EricP (52%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: gavinc (7%), ??P38 (15%), EricP (52%)

15:07:29 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:07:29 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:07:40 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:07:40 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:07:41 <zwu2> zakim, mute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, mute me

15:07:41 <Zakim> zwu2 should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should now be muted

15:07:57 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:07:57 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:08:08 <gavinc> the click seems to be zakim?

Gavin Carothers: the click seems to be zakim?

15:08:23 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:08:23 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:08:25 <Zakim> -AndyS1

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1

15:08:28 <MacTed> Zakim, mute ericP

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute ericP

15:08:28 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted

15:08:29 <MacTed> :-)

Ted Thibodeau: :-)

15:08:36 <ericP> weak!

weak!

15:08:41 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

15:08:53 <Zakim> +EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: +EricP

15:09:05 <gavinc> click, click, click

Gavin Carothers: click, click, click

15:09:11 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller]

15:09:21 <AndyS1> zakim, IPCaller is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, IPCaller is me

15:09:21 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it

15:09:24 <gavinc> Ah, that must be AndyS in a snowstorm

Gavin Carothers: Ah, that must be AndyS in a snowstorm

15:10:37 <Guus> PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Mar telecon:

Guus Schreiber: PROPOSED to accept the minutes of the 14 Mar telecon:

15:10:50 <ericP> RESOLVED

RESOLVED

15:11:16 <ericP> topic: action item review

1. action item review

15:11:34 <ericP> Guus: Turtle actions will be taken up in Turtle agendum

Guus Schreiber: Turtle actions will be taken up in Turtle agendum

15:11:36 <Zakim> -AndyS1

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1

15:11:46 <ericP> ... Sandro and I owe actions

... Sandro and I owe actions

15:12:18 <ericP> topic: getting Turtle to LC

2. getting Turtle to LC

15:12:29 <gavinc> I claim victory on ACTION-154!

Gavin Carothers: I claim victory on ACTION-154!

15:12:37 <gavinc> ACTION-150?

Gavin Carothers: ACTION-150?

15:12:37 <trackbot> ACTION-150 -- Gavin Carothers to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names -- due 2012-03-21 -- OPEN

Trackbot IRC Bot: ACTION-150 -- Gavin Carothers to fail to update Turtle/N-Triples grammar to not use \u escaping in the local part of prefix names -- due 2012-03-21 -- OPEN

15:12:37 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/150

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/actions/150

15:12:50 <Zakim> +??P25

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P25

15:13:06 <AndyS1> zakim, ??P25 is me

Andy Seaborne: zakim, ??P25 is me

15:13:06 <Zakim> +AndyS1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AndyS1; got it

15:14:30 <ericP> Guus: do we need to discussion the ":"s in local names issue?

Guus Schreiber: do we need to discussion the ":"s in local names issue?

15:14:37 <cygri> zakim, code?

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, code?

15:14:37 <Zakim> the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 73394 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), cygri

15:14:44 <ericP> gavinc: since i didn't file the issue in time, i suspect we'll do nothing about it

Gavin Carothers: since i didn't file the issue in time, i suspect we'll do nothing about it

15:14:50 <ericP> ... i'm mostly okay with that

... i'm mostly okay with that

15:15:03 <Zakim> +mhausenblas

Zakim IRC Bot: +mhausenblas

15:15:04 <ericP> ... creates some probs for a poor vocab proposed by facebook

... creates some probs for a poor vocab proposed by facebook

15:15:07 <cygri> zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

Richard Cyganiak: zakim, mhausenblas is temporarily me

15:15:07 <Zakim> +cygri; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +cygri; got it

15:15:42 <LeeF> colons? wacky

Lee Feigenbaum: colons? wacky

15:15:43 <ericP> ... Facebook uses ":"s in local part of propery names

... Facebook uses ":"s in local part of propery names

15:15:50 <ericP> ivan: already widely used?

Ivan Herman: already widely used?

15:15:54 <ericP> gavinc: yup

Gavin Carothers: yup

15:15:59 <ericP> ack me

ack me

15:16:28 <ericP> CONTINUE ACTION-152

CONTINUE ACTION-152

15:16:39 <zwu2> yes

Zhe Wu: yes

15:16:47 <ericP> ACTION-153 DONE

ACTION-153 DONE

15:16:57 <AndyS1> example - og:video:height

Andy Seaborne: example - og:video:height

15:17:06 <AndyS1> http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraphprotocol/

Andy Seaborne: http://developers.facebook.com/docs/opengraphprotocol/

15:17:36 <ericP> ACTION-154

ACTION-154

15:17:50 <ericP> gavinc: we keep the case-sensitivity

Gavin Carothers: we keep the case-sensitivity

15:17:54 <AndyS1> The "og:" is effectively a prefix part, the "video:height" is effectively a local part

Andy Seaborne: The "og:" is effectively a prefix part, the "video:height" is effectively a local part

15:17:58 <ericP> ... i'll remove the change note

... i'll remove the change note

15:18:29 <ericP> ACTION-154 DONE

ACTION-154 DONE

15:18:57 <ericP> Guus: note that next week's telecon returns to CT's 5pm

Guus Schreiber: note that next week's telecon returns to CT's 5pm

15:18:57 <PatH> Sorry Im late.

Patrick Hayes: Sorry Im late.

15:19:59 <Zakim> +PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: +PatH

15:20:10 <zwu2> zakim, unmute me

Zhe Wu: zakim, unmute me

15:20:10 <Zakim> zwu2 should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: zwu2 should no longer be muted

15:20:12 <zwu2> q+

Zhe Wu: q+

15:20:19 <ericP> gavinc: issues were relationship between texp/plain and application/ntriples

Gavin Carothers: issues were relationship between texp/plain and application/ntriples

15:20:29 <ericP> ... and @@1

... and @@1

15:20:46 <Zakim> +pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: +pfps

15:21:03 <ericP> zwu2: we'd like to see clarification of consequences of using new encoding on old tool

Zhe Wu: we'd like to see clarification of consequences of using new encoding on old tool

15:21:26 <PatH> zakim, mute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me.

15:21:26 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

15:21:29 <ericP> gavinc: can we say "there may be some issues" instead of "you should continue to serve ntriples as US-ASCII"?

Gavin Carothers: can we say "there may be some issues" instead of "you should continue to serve ntriples as US-ASCII"?

15:21:37 <ericP> zwu2: agree to a large extent

Zhe Wu: agree to a large extent

15:21:52 <ericP> ... but for maximum backward-compatibility, one should

... but for maximum backward-compatibility, one should

15:22:10 <ericP> ... is it acceptable to include that qualifier [in the spec]?

... is it acceptable to include that qualifier [in the spec]?

15:22:14 <cygri> q+

Richard Cyganiak: q+

15:22:21 <ericP> gavinc: i'm not ok with that but willing to defer to the WG

Gavin Carothers: i'm not ok with that but willing to defer to the WG

15:22:29 <ericP> ... many tools today already accept UTF8

... many tools today already accept UTF8

15:22:38 <AndyS1> which existing tools actually look at the Content-Type (and charset)?

Andy Seaborne: which existing tools actually look at the Content-Type (and charset)?

15:22:44 <ericP> zwu2: there are many tools which do not accept the new encoding

Zhe Wu: there are many tools which do not accept the new encoding

15:23:01 <ericP> davidwood: that doesn't mean we should prefer ASCII for the next 10 years

David Wood: that doesn't mean we should prefer ASCII for the next 10 years

15:23:21 <davidwood> We should *allow*, but not *prefer* ASCII

David Wood: We should *allow*, but not *prefer* ASCII

15:23:50 <ericP> zwu2: for this new encoding to work with tools, shouldn't we document the backward-compatibility path?

Zhe Wu: for this new encoding to work with tools, shouldn't we document the backward-compatibility path?

15:23:52 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

15:24:18 <ericP> davidwood: as long as ASCII is allowed, how does it hurt backward-compatibility even if it's not preferred?

David Wood: as long as ASCII is allowed, how does it hurt backward-compatibility even if it's not preferred?

15:24:43 <PatH> The issue I think is that to express any kind of preference for ASCII might (we hope) be archaic some years from now, even if it is accurate now.

Patrick Hayes: The issue I think is that to express any kind of preference for ASCII might (we hope) be archaic some years from now, even if it is accurate now.

15:24:44 <ericP> zwu2: supposed you create an ntriples file in two years, and then i feed it to rapper

Zhe Wu: supposed you create an ntriples file in two years, and then i feed it to rapper

15:25:04 <ericP> ... it will fail. should we have a warning indicating these consequences

... it will fail. should we have a warning indicating these consequences

15:25:20 <ericP> note that this is *forward* compatibility

note that this is *forward* compatibility

15:25:37 <ericP> new data on old tools

new data on old tools

15:25:49 <cygri> q?

Richard Cyganiak: q?

15:25:52 <PatH> it is a delicate matter of wording and nuance.

Patrick Hayes: it is a delicate matter of wording and nuance.

15:26:31 <ericP> gavinc: i propose to propose some text over the next week. good enough?

Gavin Carothers: i propose to propose some text over the next week. good enough?

15:26:46 <ericP> Guus: let's leave that to editorial discretion

Guus Schreiber: let's leave that to editorial discretion

15:26:52 <Guus> ack zwu

Guus Schreiber: ack zwu

15:26:59 <Guus> ack cygri

Guus Schreiber: ack cygri

15:27:12 <ericP> cygri: it may not be necessary to say what people should do in what case, instead just the facts:

Richard Cyganiak: it may not be necessary to say what people should do in what case, instead just the facts:

15:27:31 <ericP> ... utf8 and us-ascii are both valid encodings for turtle

... utf8 and us-ascii are both valid encodings for turtle

15:27:43 <PatH> +1 to richard

Patrick Hayes: +1 to richard

15:27:43 <ericP> ... some legacy systems do not handle utf8

... some legacy systems do not handle utf8

15:27:53 <gavinc> +1 richard

Gavin Carothers: +1 richard

15:28:05 <AlexHall> +1, describe the technical issues and let people decide

Alex Hall: +1, describe the technical issues and let people decide

15:28:06 <ericP> gavinc: yes [going in this direction]

Gavin Carothers: yes [going in this direction]

15:28:27 <ericP> cygri: it's reasonable to point out that conventional tools don't handle utf-8

Richard Cyganiak: it's reasonable to point out that conventional tools don't handle utf-8

15:28:29 <PatH> could also say, at the time of writing....

Patrick Hayes: could also say, at the time of writing....

15:28:46 <ericP> Guus: let's leave this as useful input to the editors

Guus Schreiber: let's leave this as useful input to the editors

15:28:52 <gavinc> +1 PatH, and include the date ;)

Gavin Carothers: +1 PatH, and include the date ;)

15:28:55 <cygri> "at the time of writing" sounds reasonable

Richard Cyganiak: "at the time of writing" sounds reasonable

15:29:23 <ivan> issue-73?

Ivan Herman: ISSUE-73?

15:29:23 <trackbot> ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-73 -- IRI_REF vs. IRIref -- open

15:29:23 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/73

15:29:43 <ericP> Guus: we agreed that you three work this out

Guus Schreiber: we agreed that you three work this out

15:29:49 <AndyS1> Is done in SPARQL.

Andy Seaborne: Is done in SPARQL.

15:29:49 <ericP> gavinc: i think we have

Gavin Carothers: i think we have

15:30:38 <ericP> AndyS1: action told us to get our act together off-list

Andy Seaborne: action told us to get our act together off-list

15:30:56 <ericP> ... i have changed the sparql grammar

... i have changed the sparql grammar

15:30:58 <ericP> ack me

ack me

15:31:30 <gavinc> IRI_REF             => IRIREF

Gavin Carothers: IRI_REF => IRIREF

15:31:31 <gavinc> IRIRef              => iri

Gavin Carothers: IRIRef => iri

15:31:33 <gavinc> IRIRefOrFunction    => iriOrFunction

Gavin Carothers: IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction

15:31:34 <gavinc> VarOrIRIref         => VarOrIri

Gavin Carothers: VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri

15:31:38 <PatH> it has consequences throughout the documents though, so get it right, guys. ;

Patrick Hayes: it has consequences throughout the documents though, so get it right, guys. ;

15:32:49 <ericP> these productions have consequences in the turtle semantics (parsing rules) as well

these productions have consequences in the turtle semantics (parsing rules) as well

15:32:59 <PatH> I was under the naive impression that

Patrick Hayes: I was under the naive impression that

15:33:28 <gavinc> PROPOSE Resolve Issue-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri

Gavin Carothers: PROPOSE Resolve ISSUE-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri

15:33:29 <PatH> IRI didnt need to have ref added :-(

Patrick Hayes: IRI didnt need to have ref added :-(

15:33:50 <ericP> ack me

ack me

15:34:11 <PatH> not disputing, just muddled.

Patrick Hayes: not disputing, just muddled.

15:34:27 <AndyS1> iri is prefix name and <...>

Andy Seaborne: iri is prefix name and <...>

15:34:38 <AndyS1> IRIREF is the <...> from RFC

Andy Seaborne: IRIREF is the <...> from RFC

15:34:43 <AndyS1> +1

Andy Seaborne: +1

15:34:46 <ericP> +1

+1

15:34:49 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

15:34:50 <PatH> +0

Patrick Hayes: +0

15:35:06 <ericP> RESOLVED

RESOLVED

15:36:04 <ericP> RESOLVED: Resolve Issue-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri

RESOLVED: Resolve ISSUE-73 by changing the following productions in Turtle: IRI_REF => IRIREF, IRIRef => iri, IRIRefOrFunction => iriOrFunction, VarOrIRIref => VarOrIri

15:36:29 <AndyS1> issue-74?

Andy Seaborne: ISSUE-74?

15:36:29 <trackbot> ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open

Trackbot IRC Bot: ISSUE-74 -- Prefixed names and slashes -- open

15:36:29 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74

Trackbot IRC Bot: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/track/issues/74

15:37:02 <ericP> yep

yep

15:37:36 <ericP> Guus: are we still on track for publication next week?

Guus Schreiber: are we still on track for publication next week?

15:37:44 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

15:37:53 <ericP> gavinc: i believe we can have somehting for folks to review next week.

Gavin Carothers: i believe we can have somehting for folks to review next week.

15:37:59 <AZ> zakim, ??P3 is me

Antoine Zimmermann: zakim, ??P3 is me

15:37:59 <Zakim> +AZ; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +AZ; got it

15:38:08 <ericP> ... i don't think adding a week [before review] would help

... i don't think adding a week [before review] would help

15:38:24 <ericP> Guus: we keep to current schedule

Guus Schreiber: we keep to current schedule

15:38:48 <ericP> ... two reviews expected 9 April, so possible decision to publish 11 April

... two reviews expected 9 April, so possible decision to publish 11 April

15:39:06 <ericP> ... Andy brought up tests. when should we discuss them?

... Andy brought up tests. when should we discuss them?

15:39:19 <ericP> ... we can discuss them during LC

... we can discuss them during LC

15:39:35 <ericP> gavinc: i originally volunteered to write test cases for turtle

Gavin Carothers: i originally volunteered to write test cases for turtle

15:40:05 <ericP> ... won't get to them before LC

... won't get to them before LC

15:40:11 <ericP> topic: named graph semantics

3. named graph semantics

15:40:12 <PatH> zakim, unmute me.

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me.

15:40:12 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

15:40:15 <gavinc> Zakim, mute me

Gavin Carothers: Zakim, mute me

15:40:15 <Zakim> gavinc should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: gavinc should now be muted

15:40:42 <ericP> Guus: we spent some time last week

Guus Schreiber: we spent some time last week

15:41:00 <ericP> PatH: may i have another week to write up the idea discussed last week

Patrick Hayes: may i have another week to write up the idea discussed last week

15:41:10 <ericP> Guus: would like concrete actions to work out examples

Guus Schreiber: would like concrete actions to work out examples

15:41:27 <ericP> ... i'm worried about how to explain this to folks outside WG

... i'm worried about how to explain this to folks outside WG

15:41:40 <ericP> ... could work that out as draft text in the primer

... could work that out as draft text in the primer

15:41:52 <ericP> ... i liked PatH's text which described what happens on import

... i liked PatH's text which described what happens on import

15:42:07 <ericP> ... which everyone does

... which everyone does

15:42:14 <PatH> I will try to write it as primer-level text.

Patrick Hayes: I will try to write it as primer-level text.

15:42:24 <ericP> PatH: draft text for Primer would be useful

Patrick Hayes: draft text for Primer would be useful

15:42:44 <PatH> ok, sounds great

Patrick Hayes: ok, sounds great

15:43:04 <ericP> ACTION: Guus to draft Primer text on importing named graphs

ACTION: Guus to draft Primer text on importing named graphs

15:43:04 <trackbot> Created ACTION-159 - Draft Primer text on importing named graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-03-28].

Trackbot IRC Bot: Created ACTION-159 - Draft Primer text on importing named graphs [on Guus Schreiber - due 2012-03-28].

15:43:29 <ericP> Guus: would be nice to apply use cases to PatH's proposal

Guus Schreiber: would be nice to apply use cases to PatH's proposal

15:43:47 <PatH> fwiw, the point i am having trouble with is having an

Patrick Hayes: fwiw, the point i am having trouble with is having an

15:44:21 <PatH> iri denote one thing while also indicating a context.

Patrick Hayes: iri denote one thing while also indicating a context.

15:45:01 <ericP> PatH: the biggest prob is having an iri able to identify both an e.g. person or context

Patrick Hayes: the biggest prob is having an iri able to identify both an e.g. person or context

15:45:06 <ericP> ack me

ack me

15:45:16 <pfps> I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Peter Patel-Schneider: I'm not sure what the problem is here.

15:45:26 <AndyS1> q+

Andy Seaborne: q+

15:45:50 <ericP> ... the fourth field could be any uri, e.g. used to identify an e.g. person

... the fourth field could be any uri, e.g. used to identify an e.g. person

15:46:04 <cygri> +1 to AndyS

Richard Cyganiak: +1 to AndyS

15:46:12 <ericP> ... how important is it for the same uri to identify both a real-world thingy and a context?

... how important is it for the same uri to identify both a real-world thingy and a context?

15:46:28 <ericP> SteveH: it doesn't have to be santioned

Steve Harris: it doesn't have to be santioned

15:46:51 <Guus> ack AndyS

Guus Schreiber: ack AndyS

15:46:58 <ericP> ... people will do what they do so it's not critical to make it so flexible

... people will do what they do so it's not critical to make it so flexible

15:47:06 <ericP> AndyS1: two subcases:

Andy Seaborne: two subcases:

15:47:22 <ericP> ... .. person, and e.g. LeeF doesn't expect the spec to cover it

... .. person, and e.g. LeeF doesn't expect the spec to cover it

15:47:29 <ericP> ... .. location on the web

... .. location on the web

15:47:37 <LeeF> That is a correct characterization of my position - we use URIs to denote both real-world things and graphs, and we don't really care if the spec covers it

Lee Feigenbaum: That is a correct characterization of my position - we use URIs to denote both real-world things and graphs, and we don't really care if the spec covers it

15:47:41 <ericP> ... could you do the easy one now, so we can see it?

... could you do the easy one now, so we can see it?

15:47:51 <ericP> ... would be nice to compare them side-by-side

... would be nice to compare them side-by-side

15:48:12 <ericP> PatH: hmm, not as easy as i thought, but can get it out in the next couple days

Patrick Hayes: hmm, not as easy as i thought, but can get it out in the next couple days

15:48:22 <AndyS1> ack me

Andy Seaborne: ack me

15:48:27 <ericP> ... i'll document the simplest, and report its flaws

... i'll document the simplest, and report its flaws

15:48:53 <ericP> Guus: your second case splits where the web resource is static or dynamic

Guus Schreiber: your second case splits where the web resource is static or dynamic

15:49:13 <ericP> these three seem to come up consistently and cover the requirements

these three seem to come up consistently and cover the requirements

15:49:23 <MacTed> the context comes in the triples involving the URI -- the URI itself is opaque...

Ted Thibodeau: the context comes in the triples involving the URI -- the URI itself is opaque...

15:49:23 <MacTed> :URI a :person   vs   :URI a :webpage   vs :URI a :electron

Ted Thibodeau: :URI a :person vs :URI a :webpage vs :URI a :electron

15:49:24 <MacTed> :URI a :indeterminate-thing   has attributes

Ted Thibodeau: :URI a :indeterminate-thing has attributes

15:49:24 <MacTed> eventually you have enough attributes to know which it is -- or you know which attributes to discard, because they're not relevant to the thing with which you are concerned...

Ted Thibodeau: eventually you have enough attributes to know which class it belongs to -- or you know which attributes to discard, because they're not relevant to the class with which you are concerned...

15:49:27 <ericP> ... if we go for a solution, these should be the basis

... if we go for a solution, these should be the basis

15:50:18 <ericP> davidwood: i thought that we decided even static was likely to change over time, just a matter of degree

David Wood: i thought that we decided even static was likely to change over time, just a matter of degree

15:50:25 <AndyS1> case 1: static graph containers: always the same value // case 2: Changing contents (changing value) [maybe a continuum]

Andy Seaborne: case 1: static graph containers: always the same value // case 2: Changing contents (changing value) [maybe a continuum]

15:50:36 <ericP> PatH: while that's true philosophically, there are those that we treat as static

Patrick Hayes: while that's true philosophically, there are those that we treat as static

15:50:54 <ericP> ... so when static things change, we expect stuff to break

... so when static things change, we expect stuff to break

15:51:13 <ericP> ... the dynamic stuff is engineered to change

... the dynamic stuff is engineered to change

15:51:47 <ericP> davidwood: are you trying to make this isomorphic with things with things which should be time invariant?

David Wood: are you trying to make this isomorphic with things with things which should be time invariant?

15:52:02 <gavinc> +q

Gavin Carothers: +q

15:52:05 <ericP> ack me

ack me

15:52:21 <gavinc> ack me

Gavin Carothers: ack me

15:52:28 <Guus> ack gavinc

Guus Schreiber: ack gavinc

15:52:34 <ericP> PatH: people should be able to declare stuff invariant

Patrick Hayes: people should be able to declare stuff invariant

15:52:44 <ericP> ... e.g. signing, endorsing

... e.g. signing, endorsing

15:52:53 <PatH> eric is better than I am at writing my thoughts, which is scary.

Patrick Hayes: eric is better than I am at writing my thoughts, which is scary.

15:52:55 <MacTed> s/attributes to know which it is/attributes to know which class it belongs to/
15:53:02 <MacTed> s/not relevant to the thing/not relevant to the class/
15:53:43 <ericP> gavinc: i don't really agree RDF emulate snapshots for signing as every signing mechanism snapshots into a bytestream

Gavin Carothers: i don't really agree RDF emulate snapshots for signing as every signing mechanism snapshots into a bytestream

15:54:05 <ericP> PatH: how does one record a signed document as a web resource for later review?

Patrick Hayes: how does one record a signed document as a web resource for later review?

15:55:14 <ivan> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme

Ivan Herman: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme

15:55:46 <ericP> gavinc: magnet URIs are designed for crypticographically identifying a resource for later search

Gavin Carothers: magnet URIs are designed for crypticographically identifying a resource for later search

15:56:24 <ericP> Guus: magnet uris are a draft open standard

Guus Schreiber: magnet uris are a draft open standard

15:56:45 <MacTed> Zakim, unmute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, unmute me

15:56:46 <Zakim> MacTed should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should no longer be muted

15:56:57 <ivan> http://magnet-uri.sourceforge.net/

Ivan Herman: http://magnet-uri.sourceforge.net/

15:57:43 <ericP> PatH: back to named graphs, maybe this makes a use case irrelevent. will consider

Patrick Hayes: back to named graphs, maybe this makes a use case irrelevent. will consider

15:58:22 <ericP> sandro: last i recall was gavinc and i disputed whether you needed crypto in the endorsement use case

Sandro Hawke: last i recall was gavinc and i disputed whether you needed crypto in the endorsement use case

15:59:03 <zwu2> sorry I have another meeting coming up. bye.

Zhe Wu: sorry I have another meeting coming up. bye.

15:59:11 <Zakim> -zwu2

Zakim IRC Bot: -zwu2

15:59:19 <ericP> gavinc: crypto gets you the ability to use magent uris to identify things on the web and get them without dereference

Gavin Carothers: crypto gets you the ability to use magent uris to identify things on the web and get them without dereference

15:59:59 <ericP> q+ to say we *can* factor crypto out

q+ to say we *can* factor crypto out

16:00:19 <ericP> AndyS1: there are existing tools and techniques using crypto

Andy Seaborne: there are existing tools and techniques using crypto

16:00:36 <ericP> ... crypto not necessary technically

... crypto not necessary technically

16:00:55 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:00:56 <Zakim> ericP, you wanted to say we *can* factor crypto out

Zakim IRC Bot: ericP, you wanted to say we *can* factor crypto out

16:01:00 <PatH> ?seem to be 2 cases? 1. controlling who gets to see the resource  2. ensuring that the resource referred to is the right one. I think (?) magnet uris are for the first?

Patrick Hayes: ?seem to be 2 cases? 1. controlling who gets to see the resource 2. ensuring that the resource referred to is the right one. I think (?) magnet uris are for the first?

16:01:16 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:01:33 <sandro> found it --- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

Sandro Hawke: found it --- http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

16:02:36 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:04:33 <ericP> MacTed: you have to hash a gsnap

Ted Thibodeau: you have to hash a gsnap

16:04:49 <ericP> or i can ask some trusted party to copy it

or i can ask some trusted party to copy it

16:05:09 <ericP> or you may trust me to nto alter the text, and i just want to talk *about* that graph

or you may trust me to nto alter the text, and i just want to talk *about* that graph

16:05:28 <Guus> sandro, pls talk us through the page you pointed to

Guus Schreiber: sandro, pls talk us through the page you pointed to

16:05:34 <ericP> +1

+1

16:05:36 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

16:06:09 <PatH> zakim, mute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, mute me

16:06:09 <Zakim> PatH should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should now be muted

16:06:37 <ericP> [conversation about guuids and crypto]

[conversation about guuids and crypto]

16:06:47 <PatH> +1 to whoever just spoke

Patrick Hayes: +1 to whoever just spoke

16:07:04 <PatH> that was ted

Patrick Hayes: that was ted

16:07:04 <ericP> sandro: gavin created this wiki page

Sandro Hawke: gavin created this wiki page

16:07:26 <ericP> ... started with use case "alice want to say that she agrees that 'Bob is named Bob'"

... started with use case "alice want to say that she agrees that 'Bob is named Bob'"

16:07:42 <sandro>      <#me> foaf:name "Bob",

Sandro Hawke: <#me> foaf:name "Bob",

16:07:50 <sandro> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0064.html

Sandro Hawke: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-rdf-wg/2012Jan/0064.html

16:08:08 <ericP> ... Bob says "<#me> foaf:name "Bob""

... Bob says "<#me> foaf:name "Bob""

16:08:59 <sandro> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

Sandro Hawke: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Example_of_Endorsement_Use_Case

16:09:07 <ericP> ... adding crypto isn't required for this use case

... adding crypto isn't required for this use case

16:09:45 <ericP> ... gavinc's using something cryptographically derived from bytes instead "g775"

... gavinc's using something cryptographically derived from bytes instead "g775"

16:10:12 <ericP> gavinc: if someone is externally signing the docs, you don't need the crypto in trig

Gavin Carothers: if someone is externally signing the docs, you don't need the crypto in trig

16:10:35 <Guus> q+

Guus Schreiber: q+

16:10:46 <davidwood> q+ to comment against Sandro's message

David Wood: q+ to comment against Sandro's message

16:11:02 <PatH> trust =/= security?

Patrick Hayes: trust =/= security?

16:11:10 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:11:43 <ericP> Zakim, mute me

Zakim, mute me

16:11:43 <Zakim> EricP should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: EricP should now be muted

16:11:47 <PatH> zakim, unmute me

Patrick Hayes: zakim, unmute me

16:11:47 <Zakim> PatH should no longer be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: PatH should no longer be muted

16:12:19 <PatH> q+

Patrick Hayes: q+

16:13:18 <ericP> sandro: is there anything that this group needs to do to make this example work?

Sandro Hawke: is there anything that this group needs to do to make this example work?

16:14:15 <AndyS1> This WG does not need to solve this problem - it needs to enable it or just not block it.

Andy Seaborne: This WG does not need to solve this problem - it needs to enable it or just not block it.

16:15:11 <sandro> sandro: I will happily agree that crypt-URIs *are* useful for when you DONT want to use TRIG.  When the data is too long, or something.

Sandro Hawke: I will happily agree that crypt-URIs *are* useful for when you DONT want to use TRIG. When the data is too long, or something. [ Scribe Assist by Sandro Hawke ]

16:15:24 <PatH> q-

Patrick Hayes: q-

16:15:30 <Guus> ack Guus

Guus Schreiber: ack Guus

16:15:36 <Guus> ack davidwood

Guus Schreiber: ack davidwood

16:15:36 <Zakim> davidwood, you wanted to comment against Sandro's message

Zakim IRC Bot: davidwood, you wanted to comment against Sandro's message

16:15:42 <ericP> davidwood: critique of sandro's mail, alice could have made up "Bob's name is 'Bob'"

David Wood: critique of sandro's mail, alice could have made up "Bob's name is 'Bob'"

16:15:44 <PatH> david just made mt point.

Patrick Hayes: david just made mt point.

16:15:59 <PatH> mt//my

Patrick Hayes: mt//my

16:17:08 <MacTed> what "GRAPH"?  gsnap, gbox, gtext?  I think there is slop happening...

Ted Thibodeau: what "GRAPH"? gsnap, gbox, gtext? I think there is slop happening...

16:17:28 <ericP> PatH: there's not much point is endorsing a mathmatical abstraction

Patrick Hayes: there's not much point is endorsing a mathmatical abstraction

16:18:04 <ericP> i wonder if annotea was an endorsement system

i wonder if annotea was an endorsement system

16:18:25 <PatH> time rescues us again....

Patrick Hayes: time rescues us again....

16:18:32 <ericP> Guus: if we don't get some examples, we have to go with the minimal solution

Guus Schreiber: if we don't get some examples, we have to go with the minimal solution

16:18:55 <Zakim> -cgreer

Zakim IRC Bot: -cgreer

16:18:58 <ericP> sandro: or admit defeat (preferrable to claiming victory on a non-success)

Sandro Hawke: or admit defeat (preferrable to claiming victory on a non-success)

16:18:59 <Zakim> -PatH

Zakim IRC Bot: -PatH

16:19:17 <Zakim> -AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: -AZ

16:19:22 <Zakim> - +1.603.897.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.603.897.aaaa

16:19:22 <AndyS1> We should define TriG syntax -- it's out there now -- ditto nquads

Andy Seaborne: We should define TriG syntax -- it's out there now -- ditto nquads

16:19:25 <ericP> ck me

ck me

16:19:25 <Zakim> -pfps

Zakim IRC Bot: -pfps

16:19:27 <ericP> ack me

ack me

16:19:29 <Zakim> -Arnaud

Zakim IRC Bot: -Arnaud

16:19:30 <Zakim> -AlexHall

Zakim IRC Bot: -AlexHall

16:19:30 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

16:19:35 <Zakim> -NickH

Zakim IRC Bot: -NickH

16:19:37 <Zakim> -Guus_Schreiber

Zakim IRC Bot: -Guus_Schreiber

16:19:37 <Zakim> -AndyS1

Zakim IRC Bot: -AndyS1

16:19:41 <Zakim> -gavinc

Zakim IRC Bot: -gavinc

16:19:44 <Zakim> -Ivan

Zakim IRC Bot: -Ivan

16:19:46 <MacTed> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

Ted Thibodeau: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

16:19:49 <MacTed> :-)

Ted Thibodeau: :-)

16:19:49 <sandro> syntax without semantics, AndyS ?      Maybe....

Sandro Hawke: syntax without semantics, AndyS ? Maybe....

16:19:51 <davidwood> http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

David Wood: http://www.w3.org/2011/rdf-wg/wiki/Scribes

16:20:11 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:20:34 <Zakim> -EricP

Zakim IRC Bot: -EricP

16:20:35 <Zakim> -cygri

Zakim IRC Bot: -cygri

16:20:37 <Zakim> -davidwood

Zakim IRC Bot: -davidwood

16:20:39 <AndyS1> If we can't define the semantics we can at least enable data exchange.

Andy Seaborne: If we can't define the semantics we can at least enable data exchange.

16:21:03 <davidwood> AndyS I like it as a first step

David Wood: AndyS I like it as a first step

16:21:03 <gavinc> +1

Gavin Carothers: +1

16:21:07 <sandro> yep.     true.

Sandro Hawke: yep. true.

16:21:17 <AndyS1> It will happen, the only Q is whether we help interoperability or not by fixing details.

Andy Seaborne: It will happen, the only Q is whether we help interoperability or not by fixing details.

16:23:30 <Zakim> -SteveH

Zakim IRC Bot: -SteveH

16:25:09 <Zakim> -LeeF

Zakim IRC Bot: -LeeF

16:25:10 <Zakim> SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_RDFWG()11:00AM has ended

16:25:10 <Zakim> Attendees were gavinc, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, davidwood, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, zwu2, LeeF, SteveH, NickH,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were gavinc, sandro, +1.603.897.aaaa, Arnaud, pfps, Guus_Schreiber, EricP, davidwood, cgreer, AndyS1, Ivan, +1.443.212.aabb, AlexHall, MacTed, zwu2, LeeF, SteveH, NickH,

16:25:10 <Zakim> ... cygri, PatH, AZ

Zakim IRC Bot: ... cygri, PatH, AZ



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This revision (#1) generated 2012-03-27 21:30:23 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None