Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 08 March 2012

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08
Seen
Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, Graham Klyne, James Cheney, Jun Zhao, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Michael Lang, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Sam Coppens, Sandro Hawke, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Stephan Zednik, Stian Soiland-Reyes, Timothy Lebo
Chair
Paul Groth
Scribe
Paolo Missier
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4) link
  2. to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4 link
Topics
  1. Admin

    Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.

  2. F2F3

    The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.

  3. Prov-o

    Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.

  4. prov-dm

    Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.

15:56:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-irc

15:56:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

15:56:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

15:56:52 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
15:56:52 <trackbot> Date: 08 March 2012
15:56:53 <pgroth> Zakim, this will be PROV

Paul Groth: Zakim, this will be PROV

15:56:53 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

15:56:56 <Zakim> ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, pgroth, I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM already started

15:57:05 <pgroth> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08
15:57:11 <pgroth> Chair: Paul Groth
15:57:27 <pgroth> Scribe: Paolo Missier

(Scribe set to Paolo Missier)

15:57:33 <pgroth> rrsagent, make logs public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, make logs public

15:57:51 <Zakim> + +1.443.212.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.443.212.aaaa

16:00:13 <Zakim> +??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P9

16:00:40 <Zakim> +Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt_Tilmes

16:00:52 <Zakim> +??P26

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P26

16:01:07 <GK> Zakim, ??p26 is me

Graham Klyne: Zakim, ??p26 is me

16:01:07 <Zakim> +GK; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK; got it

16:01:22 <Zakim> + +1.315.330.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.315.330.aabb

16:01:31 <tlebo> zakim, I am aabb

Timothy Lebo: zakim, I am aabb

16:01:31 <Zakim> +tlebo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +tlebo; got it

16:01:41 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:02:07 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, [IPcaller.a] is me

16:02:20 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

16:02:26 <Zakim> +sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: +sandro

16:03:19 <pgroth> topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.

<pgroth> Summary: Normal admin issues and reminded the working group of the time change for Europe for the next two weeks.
16:03:29 <pgroth> Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01

Paul Groth: Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01

16:03:42 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:03:43 <paolo> +1

+1

16:03:44 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:03:48 <Mike> +1

Michael Lang: +1

16:03:49 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

16:03:50 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

16:03:55 <Zakim> +Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: +Satya_Sahoo

16:04:10 <Zakim> +??P27

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P27

16:04:17 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:04:22 <jun> zakim, ??P27 is me

Jun Zhao: zakim, ??P27 is me

16:04:22 <Zakim> +jun; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jun; got it

16:04:39 <pgroth> Accepted Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01

Paul Groth: Accepted Minutes of the Feb 23 2012 Telecon: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2012-03-01

16:04:46 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

16:04:46 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun

16:04:56 <pgroth>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

Paul Groth: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/actions/open

16:05:27 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.a]

16:05:42 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

16:05:50 <jcheney> zakim, ??p34 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??p34 is me

16:05:50 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

16:05:53 <paolo> k action can be closed

k action can be closed

16:06:06 <GK> @paul I guess we'll talk about updating PROV-AQ - I've been focusing my limited efforts this week on reviewing DM updates

Graham Klyne: @paul I guess we'll talk about updating PROV-AQ - I've been focusing my limited efforts this week on reviewing DM updates

16:06:13 <paolo> daniel's action can be closed

daniel's action can be closed

16:06:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aa]

16:07:28 <pgroth> topic: F2F3

2. F2F3

Summary: The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.

<pgroth> Summary: The chairs proposed to colocate the next F2F meeting with IPAW. A poll was set-up to agree on times. The working group was encouraged to provide a response by next early next week.
16:07:29 <GK> Mar !!????  I have Mar 15 and 22

Graham Klyne: Mar !!???? I have Mar 15 and 22

16:08:09 <pgroth> Please fill poll https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f3/

Paul Groth: Please fill poll https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/46974/f2f3/

16:08:14 <pgroth> June 22 - 23

Paul Groth: June 22 - 23

16:08:16 <paolo> pgroth:  co-locate with IPAW. should be in US anyways

Paul Groth: co-locate with IPAW. should be in US anyways

16:08:26 <Zakim> +??P14

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P14

16:08:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:09:03 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P14 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P14 is me

16:09:03 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

16:09:08 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:09:16 <pgroth> topic: Prov-o

3. Prov-o

Summary: Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.

<pgroth> Summary: Update on the prov-o ontology. Progress has been made on the html structure and automating the creating of it from the ontology. Much work has been done on revising the ontology and preparing for easier mapping between prov-o and prov-dm.
16:09:20 <GK> That meeting date is Friday and saturday, right?

Graham Klyne: That meeting date is Friday and saturday, right?

16:09:24 <pgroth> yes

Paul Groth: yes

16:09:24 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08#PROV-O

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2012.03.08#PROV-O

16:09:44 <pgroth> Zakim, who is on the call?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who is on the call?

16:09:44 <Zakim> On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, [IPcaller.a], jcheney, [IPcaller.aa], dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see ??P21, [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, ??P9, Curt_Tilmes, GK, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, [IPcaller.a], jcheney, [IPcaller.aa], dgarijo

16:09:48 <dgarijo> Sorry to be late. Yes, I've finished my aciton, along with Tim and Mike.

Daniel Garijo: Sorry to be late. Yes, I've finished my aciton, along with Tim and Mike.

16:09:51 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P21 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P21 is me

16:09:51 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

16:09:59 <paolo> tlebo: owl: processing issues, created new product just for HTML in the tracker

Timothy Lebo: owl: processing issues, created new product just for HTML in the tracker

16:10:28 <paolo> tlebo: changes occurred to OWL onto over the week. free to review

Timothy Lebo: changes occurred to OWL onto over the week. free to review

16:10:43 <paolo> tlebo: changes to OWL have corresp. changes to the RDF pages

Timothy Lebo: changes to OWL have corresp. changes to the RDF pages

16:10:59 <paolo> tlebo: new comparisons to the coverage overview page available

Timothy Lebo: new comparisons to the coverage overview page available

16:11:23 <paolo> tlebo: HTML side: new product in tracker. Jun + Khalid presented a proposal for new doc structure

Timothy Lebo: HTML side: new product in tracker. Jun + Khalid presented a proposal for new doc structure

16:11:35 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:11:38 <paolo> tlebo: well received during the monday call.

Timothy Lebo: well received during the monday call.

16:11:54 <paolo> tlebo: journalism example shown, sketch of diagram

Timothy Lebo: journalism example shown, sketch of diagram

16:12:15 <paolo> tlebo: onto visualization tool to help Khalid and Jun (Daniel?)

Timothy Lebo: onto visualization tool to help Khalid and Jun (Daniel?)

16:12:28 <paolo> tlebo:  new page creation mechanism available

Timothy Lebo: new page creation mechanism available

16:12:39 <paolo> tlebo: getting ready to review next iteration

Timothy Lebo: getting ready to review next iteration

16:12:53 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:12:55 <paolo> tlebo: will then assign specific sections of the doc

Timothy Lebo: will then assign specific sections of the doc

16:13:11 <Luc> q+ to ask about html generation tool

Luc Moreau: q+ to ask about html generation tool

16:13:17 <paolo> pgroth: plan for deciding which automated gen tool to use?

Paul Groth: plan for deciding which automated gen tool to use?

16:13:23 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:13:26 <Zakim> + +329331aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +329331aacc

16:13:29 <paolo> tlebo: will emerge from discussion of next iteration

Timothy Lebo: will emerge from discussion of next iteration

16:13:38 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:13:39 <Zakim> Luc, you wanted to ask about html generation tool

Zakim IRC Bot: Luc, you wanted to ask about html generation tool

16:13:45 <dgarijo> I think that LODE was the most successful

Daniel Garijo: I think that LODE was the most successful

16:14:19 <paolo> Luc: how about printing requirement

Luc Moreau: how about printing requirement

16:14:20 <pgroth> q+ to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format

Paul Groth: q+ to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format

16:14:28 <paolo> tlebo: will be taken into account

Timothy Lebo: will be taken into account

16:14:38 <GK> (Doesn't mean one can't also have a browsable form :)

Graham Klyne: (Doesn't mean one can't also have a browsable form :)

16:15:00 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:15:00 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to say that we need to ensure that we follow the w3c rec format

16:15:10 <dgarijo> You can browse the different tools at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Generating_HTML_documentation_of_OWL#PROV-O_Views_in_the_previous_tools

Daniel Garijo: You can browse the different tools at: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Generating_HTML_documentation_of_OWL#PROV-O_Views_in_the_previous_tools

16:15:15 <paolo> pgroth: SW coord meeting says any format we use must be compatible with the W3C prescribed style guide

Paul Groth: SW coord meeting says any format we use must be compatible with the W3C prescribed style guide

16:15:26 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:15:33 <paolo> tlebo: ok so far, on the todo list for the future

Timothy Lebo: ok so far, on the todo list for the future

16:16:15 <paolo> tlebo: simplification & alignment:  propose to flatten part of the Involvement hierarchy

Timothy Lebo: simplification & alignment: propose to flatten part of the Involvement hierarchy

16:16:45 <paolo> tlebo: proposal sent out on Tue. Khalid responded. Will be implemented shortly

Timothy Lebo: proposal sent out on Tue. Khalid responded. Will be implemented shortly

16:16:50 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:16:58 <dgarijo> I don't object as long as we have the hierarchy on the properties.

Daniel Garijo: I don't object as long as we have the hierarchy on the properties.

16:17:26 <paolo> pgroth: date for automated version?

Paul Groth: date for automated version?

16:17:43 <paolo> tlebo: aggregation of all threads under review by Monday

Timothy Lebo: aggregation of all threads under review by Monday

16:17:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:17:58 <dgarijo> @tlebo: if you need some additional help, please tell me.

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo: if you need some additional help, please tell me.

16:18:11 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:18:17 <paolo> tlebo: results on next iteration to be available by Tue or Wed

Timothy Lebo: results on next iteration to be available by Tue or Wed

16:18:22 <pgroth> topic: prov-dm

4. prov-dm

Summary: Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.

<pgroth> Summary: Editors addressed most comments from the review of WD4 all remaining comments are noted in the document. It was agreed to include a revised version of derivation in WD4. The group also agreed to change the name of PROV-ASN to PROV-N. With these changes included, it was agreed to freeze WD4 as an internal release. A discussion around the new version of derivation was held.
16:18:33 <Luc> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/274

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/274

16:19:10 <paolo> Luc: all comments grouped last week (Luc and Paolo)  as ISSUE-274

Luc Moreau: all comments grouped last week (Luc and Paolo) as ISSUE-274

16:19:23 <paolo> Luc: most resolved, rest noted in the current doc

Luc Moreau: most resolved, rest noted in the current doc

16:19:50 <paolo> Luc: WD4 work to be frozen so that next set of tech issues can be tackled

Luc Moreau: WD4 work to be frozen so that next set of tech issues can be tackled

16:19:55 <Zakim> +??P64

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P64

16:20:16 <paolo> Luc: important for PROV-o and other "serialisers" to have a frozen PROV-DM

Luc Moreau: important for PROV-o and other "serialisers" to have a frozen PROV-DM

16:20:25 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:20:25 <paolo> Luc: feedback solicited

Luc Moreau: feedback solicited

16:21:05 <GK> I reviewed DM4 today (up to about middle of section 4); much improved over previous but still some issues - happy to see these considered for DM5.

Graham Klyne: I reviewed DM4 today (up to about middle of section 4); much improved over previous but still some issues - happy to see these considered for DM5.

16:21:19 <GK> (Just sent comments to list)

Graham Klyne: (Just sent comments to list)

16:21:21 <paolo> Luc: no response from Tim, but know he's been looking into WD4 for PROV-O. ok to move on?

Luc Moreau: no response from Tim, but know he's been looking into WD4 for PROV-O. ok to move on?

16:21:41 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:21:45 <paolo> tlebo: sec. II and III missed so far, but will go with group's decision to Freeze

Timothy Lebo: sec. II and III missed so far, but will go with group's decision to Freeze

16:22:32 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:22:33 <paolo> GK: current comments sent to list supersede previous ones

Graham Klyne: current comments sent to list supersede previous ones

16:22:35 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:23:19 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:23:28 <paolo> pgroth: happy to freeze, but does that entail updating the RDF if any signatures have changed?

Paul Groth: happy to freeze, but does that entail updating the RDF if any signatures have changed?

16:24:37 <paolo> tlebo: discrepancies are automatically detected -- thanks to changes in the PROV-DM markup

Timothy Lebo: discrepancies are automatically detected -- thanks to changes in the PROV-DM markup

16:25:04 <Luc> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-derivation.html

Luc Moreau: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/working-copy/wd5-prov-dm-derivation.html

16:25:39 <paolo> Luc: WD4 text on derivation is still the same as WD3. but needs simplification. Link above is a proposal

Luc Moreau: WD4 text on derivation is still the same as WD3. but needs simplification. Link above is a proposal

16:25:43 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.aaa]

Zakim IRC Bot: +[IPcaller.aaa]

16:26:16 <paolo> Luc: reviewed by Simon and others. Recent comments from GK and Curt taken into account

Luc Moreau: reviewed by Simon and others. Recent comments from GK and Curt taken into account

16:26:19 <GK> New text is big improvement.  I still have some issues with content but happy to see new text as basis of ongoing comments.

Graham Klyne: New text is big improvement. I still have some issues with content but happy to see new text as basis of ongoing comments.

16:26:50 <paolo> Luc: seeking WG approval to incorporate into the editor's draft. and should it go into WD4 or WD5

Luc Moreau: seeking WG approval to incorporate into the editor's draft. and should it go into WD4 or WD5

16:26:51 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:27:22 <paolo> GK: still some issues, but big improvement. can go forward for discussion

Graham Klyne: still some issues, but big improvement. can go forward for discussion

16:28:20 <paolo> Curt: agree that changes look good. some workflows may have requirements that match the current proposal

Curt Tilmes: agree that changes look good. some workflows may have requirements that match the current proposal

16:28:42 <paolo> Luc: where is this explained? DM part I or primer? seeking advice

Luc Moreau: where is this explained? DM part I or primer? seeking advice

16:28:46 <GK> q+ to say I think there's scope for simplifying here

Graham Klyne: q+ to say I think there's scope for simplifying here

16:29:17 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

16:29:17 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say I think there's scope for simplifying here

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say I think there's scope for simplifying here

16:29:25 <paolo> Curt: suggest to use derivation simply, not tied into the roles and not tied back to gen/usage. These details may not go in part I

Curt Tilmes: suggest to use derivation simply, not tied into the roles and not tied back to gen/usage. These details may not go in part I

16:29:49 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:30:01 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:30:11 <paolo> GK: the entity-entity derivation can be accomplished by introducing an activity.

Graham Klyne: the entity-entity derivation can be accomplished by introducing an activity.

16:30:45 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:30:56 <pgroth> we have time :-)

Paul Groth: we have time :-)

16:31:00 <paolo> Luc: but activities may be unknown, and also may not be known how "source" entities contributed, so a link into the derivation record is needed

Luc Moreau: but activities may be unknown, and also may not be known how "source" entities contributed, so a link into the derivation record is needed

16:31:01 <Curt> q+ could attributes be used to tie that?

Curt Tilmes: q+ could attributes be used to tie that?

16:31:02 <tlebo> q+

Timothy Lebo: q+

16:31:12 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:31:15 <paolo> GK: not sure -- to be discussed further

Graham Klyne: not sure -- to be discussed further

16:31:26 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

16:31:41 <tlebo> q+ to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition

Timothy Lebo: q+ to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition

16:31:53 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:31:55 <paolo> Curt: can't role be used

Curt Tilmes: can't role be used

16:32:13 <pgroth> ack tlebo

Paul Groth: ack tlebo

16:32:13 <Zakim> tlebo, you wanted to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, you wanted to ask if WD4 vs WD5 is on the table for derivation's definition

16:32:20 <paolo> Luc: roles in this case superseded by instances of usage/gen -- so need to be able to refer to those

Luc Moreau: roles in this case superseded by instances of usage/gen -- so need to be able to refer to those

16:32:39 <paolo> tlebo: should new defs go in WD4 or WD5

Timothy Lebo: should new defs go in WD4 or WD5

16:32:54 <GK> q+ to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events?  (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)

Graham Klyne: q+ to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)

16:33:06 <paolo> pgroth: suggest WD4 as it simplifies work on PROV-O, gives it only one derivation to work with

Paul Groth: suggest WD4 as it simplifies work on PROV-O, gives it only one derivation to work with

16:33:19 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:33:23 <paolo> tlebo: agree

Timothy Lebo: agree

16:33:29 <tlebo> q-

Timothy Lebo: q-

16:33:33 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:33:50 <stainPhone> @tlebo +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: @tlebo +1

16:34:02 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:34:10 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:34:24 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

16:34:24 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events?  (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to ask if "usage" and "generation" are events? (happy to discuss in email if we're moving on)

16:34:25 <paolo> GK: please continue discussion on the list. still some confusion

Graham Klyne: please continue discussion on the list. still some confusion

16:34:27 <Luc> To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

Luc Moreau: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

16:34:36 <Luc> PROPOSED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

PROPOSED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

16:34:36 <stainPhone> yes, how cam tou talk anput usage without the using activity?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: yes, how cam tou talk anput usage without the using activity?

16:34:51 <stainPhone> +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: +1

16:34:52 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

16:34:53 <GK> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

16:34:53 <paolo> +1

+1

16:34:55 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

16:34:57 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:34:57 <Mike> +1

Michael Lang: +1

16:34:57 <dgarijo> +1

Daniel Garijo: +1

16:34:58 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

16:34:58 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

16:34:58 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

16:35:03 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

16:35:11 <pgroth> Accepted: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

RESOLVED: To incorporate the proposal on derivation in the current editor's draft (WD4)

16:35:39 <GK> I think freezing an editors draft is editor's call

Graham Klyne: I think freezing an editors draft is editor's call

16:36:03 <paolo> Luc: incorporate proposal for derivation in WD4, then freeze WD4. fixed URL for internal use only

Luc Moreau: incorporate proposal for derivation in WD4, then freeze WD4. fixed URL for internal use only

16:36:06 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:36:36 <Luc> q+

Luc Moreau: q+

16:36:37 <paolo> q+

q+

16:36:49 <stainPhone> so wd4 will not be published? or later w/provo wd2 etc?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: so wd4 will not be published? or later w/provo wd2 etc?

16:36:53 <Curt> PROV-N

Curt Tilmes: PROV-N

16:36:55 <paolo> Luc: can we find a name for the ASN?

Luc Moreau: can we find a name for the ASN?

16:36:56 <Curt> ISSUE 273

Curt Tilmes: ISSUE-273

16:37:13 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:37:14 <stainPhone> something non-abstract! ;)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: something non-abstract! ;)

16:37:20 <pgroth> ack Luc

Paul Groth: ack Luc

16:37:43 <paolo> q-

q-

16:37:57 <stainPhone> PROV-N +1

Stian Soiland-Reyes: PROV-N +1

16:37:58 <Curt> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/273

Curt Tilmes: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/track/issues/273

16:38:03 <tlebo> PROV-N +1

Timothy Lebo: PROV-N +1

16:38:04 <paolo> proposals so far: PROV-N and "functional notation"

proposals so far: PROV-N and "functional notation"

16:38:11 <zednik> PROV-N +1

Stephan Zednik: PROV-N +1

16:38:13 <GK> I'm OK with PROV-N.  "functional notation" by analogy with OWL

Graham Klyne: I'm OK with PROV-N. "functional notation" by analogy with OWL

16:38:21 <pgroth> PROV-0, PROV-DM, PROV-AQ, PROV-Primer

Paul Groth: PROV-0, PROV-DM, PROV-AQ, PROV-Primer

16:38:25 <paolo> PROV-N +1

PROV-N +1

16:38:43 <pgroth> PROV-N

Paul Groth: PROV-N

16:38:43 <GK> (But I'd prefer it as an appendix in part 1)

Graham Klyne: (But I'd prefer it as an appendix in part 1)

16:38:50 <dgarijo> PROV-N +1

Daniel Garijo: PROV-N +1

16:39:08 <SamCoppens> PROV-N +1

Sam Coppens: PROV-N +1

16:39:12 <GK> +0.5 (don't care too much)

Graham Klyne: +0.5 (don't care too much)

16:39:13 <paolo> yep I just voted :-)

yep I just voted :-)

16:39:14 <Curt> PROV-N +1

Curt Tilmes: PROV-N +1

16:39:20 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

16:39:33 <pgroth> Consensus, to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4

Paul Groth: Consensus, to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4

16:39:47 <GK> I think most important thing is to update references in the text

Graham Klyne: I think most important thing is to update references in the text

16:39:48 <pgroth> Accepted: to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4

RESOLVED: to change PROV-ASN to PROV-N in WD4

16:39:57 <paolo> q+

q+

16:40:07 <pgroth> ace paolo

Paul Groth: ace paolo

16:40:10 <pgroth> ack paolo

Paul Groth: ack paolo

16:40:11 <GK> q+

Graham Klyne: q+

16:40:14 <pgroth> ack GK

Paul Groth: ack GK

16:40:49 <jun> I'll have to leave

Jun Zhao: I'll have to leave

16:41:20 <GK> Agree discuss for understanding

Graham Klyne: Agree discuss for understanding

16:41:29 <Zakim> -jun

Zakim IRC Bot: -jun

16:41:32 <Zakim> +??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P5

16:41:46 <Zakim> - +1.443.212.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.443.212.aaaa

16:41:52 <Paolo_> (back)

(back)

16:42:18 <GK> GK: why is not being able to infer activity an issue in derivation?

Graham Klyne: why is not being able to infer activity an issue in derivation? [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ]

16:42:27 <GK> Luc: (a) reproducibility

Luc Moreau: (a) reproducibility [ Scribe Assist by Graham Klyne ]

16:42:33 <GK> (b) analysis of traces

Graham Klyne: (b) analysis of traces

16:42:37 <Paolo_> Luc: issue with analysis with provenance traces

Luc Moreau: issue with analysis with provenance traces

16:42:43 <Paolo_> (I can resume GK, thanks)

(I can resume GK, thanks)

16:43:02 <pgroth> Zakim, who's load?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's load?

16:43:02 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth.

16:43:05 <Paolo_> Luc: type of activity important for reproducibility and analysis

Luc Moreau: type of activity important for reproducibility and analysis

16:43:07 <Zakim> -sandro

Zakim IRC Bot: -sandro

16:43:09 <pgroth> Zakim, who's loud?

Paul Groth: Zakim, who's loud?

16:43:09 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, pgroth.

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand your question, pgroth.

16:43:20 <tlebo> zakim, who is making noise?

Timothy Lebo: zakim, who is making noise?

16:43:31 <Zakim> tlebo, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

Zakim IRC Bot: tlebo, listening for 10 seconds I could not identify any sounds

16:43:58 <Paolo_> Luc: details about input bindings into a procedure are only known from the usage records associated with the derivation

Luc Moreau: details about input bindings into a procedure are only known from the usage records associated with the derivation

16:44:15 <stainPhone> but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?

16:44:52 <Paolo_> Luc: practical POV: a given activity may use same entity multiple times, with different roles

Luc Moreau: practical POV: a given activity may use same entity multiple times, with different roles

16:45:24 <stainPhone> or is (equivalent of) inprecise-n out now?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: or is (equivalent of) inprecise-n out now?

16:45:33 <Paolo_> Luc: formal POV: in the context of OPM there is a need to kow which activity is associated with each derivation, roles allow for some completeness results

Luc Moreau: formal POV: in the context of OPM there is a need to kow which activity is associated with each derivation, roles allow for some completeness results

16:46:05 <satya> @GK, agree - derivation is not for incorporating activity information

Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree - derivation is not for incorporating activity information

16:46:06 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:46:10 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:46:22 <Paolo_> GK: explicit activity expression already allowed this. This E-E derivation useful when that's not available?

Graham Klyne: explicit activity expression already allowed this. This E-E derivation useful when that's not available?

16:46:23 <GK> I understand there;'s a need to express this information, but I thought it was possible through explicit activity/event expressions; entity-entity is for when less info is available?

Graham Klyne: I understand there;'s a need to express this information, but I thought it was possible through explicit activity/event expressions; entity-entity is for when less info is available?

16:46:58 <khalidbelhajjame> Usage + Generation does not always allow inferring Derivation

Khalid Belhajjame: Usage + Generation does not always allow inferring Derivation

16:47:07 <Paolo_> Luc: activities are not just function calls, entities can be consumed at any time -- usage does not imply derivation

Luc Moreau: activities are not just function calls, entities can be consumed at any time -- usage does not imply derivation

16:47:09 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:47:14 <pgroth> ack satya

Paul Groth: ack satya

16:47:16 <stainPhone> q+

Stian Soiland-Reyes: q+

16:47:28 <GK> Ah  usage + generation !=> derivation - forgot that.

Graham Klyne: Ah usage + generation !=> derivation - forgot that.

16:47:51 <Paolo_> satya: why should usage/generation/roles be brought into a derivation record?

Satya Sahoo: why should usage/generation/roles be brought into a derivation record?

16:48:04 <Paolo_> satya: we are not trying to make inferences using derivation

Satya Sahoo: we are not trying to make inferences using derivation

16:48:26 <GK> Stian not hearing you

Graham Klyne: Stian not hearing you

16:48:29 <khalidbelhajjame> We didn't hear you Stian

Khalid Belhajjame: We didn't hear you Stian

16:48:51 <Paolo_> stian: (hard to hear)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: (hard to hear)

16:48:53 <stainPhone> ok

Stian Soiland-Reyes: ok

16:48:57 <khalidbelhajjame> Still breaking Stian

Khalid Belhajjame: Still breaking Stian

16:48:59 <tlebo> is it this: 	but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?

Timothy Lebo: is it this: but it is OK for a to be derived from b, generated by x, without x using b, right?

16:49:01 <stainPhone> ill type, go ahead

Stian Soiland-Reyes: ill type, go ahead

16:49:11 <Paolo_> (I missed it)

(I missed it)

16:49:11 <stainPhone> tlebo, right

Stian Soiland-Reyes: tlebo, right

16:50:14 <Paolo_> Luc: @stian example is correct

Luc Moreau: @stian example is correct

16:50:30 <Curt> You could even have e2 derived from e1 in two different ways (two usage roles, if you will) within the same activity

Curt Tilmes: You could even have e2 derived from e1 in two different ways (two usage roles, if you will) within the same activity

16:50:32 <Paolo_> Khalid: essentially used imprecise_n derivation

Khalid Belhajjame: essentially used imprecise_n derivation

16:50:45 <stainPhone> that makes srnse. but then you cant refer to those usages and generations?

Stian Soiland-Reyes: that makes srnse. but then you cant refer to those usages and generations?

16:50:59 <pgroth> q+

Paul Groth: q+

16:51:05 <pgroth> ack stainPhone

Paul Groth: ack stainPhone

16:51:06 <Paolo_> GK: is there a use case that requires this form of derivation? possibly can be rephrased in terms of the simpler use

Graham Klyne: is there a use case that requires this form of derivation? possibly can be rephrased in terms of the simpler use

16:51:25 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aaa]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aaa]

16:51:38 <Paolo_> Luc: proposal does not involve embedding a generation / usage record into the derivation. just a reference to those records

Luc Moreau: proposal does not involve embedding a generation / usage record into the derivation. just a reference to those records

16:51:40 <tlebo> @gk, I share your "orthogonalizatiaon" interest, but I view the current definition as a nice way of unifying the (otherwise isoloated) constructs.

Timothy Lebo: @gk, I share your "orthogonalizatiaon" interest, but I view the current definition as a nice way of unifying the (otherwise isoloated) constructs.

16:51:58 <Zakim> -??P5

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P5

16:52:14 <Zakim> +??P3

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P3

16:52:18 <pgroth> divison

Paul Groth: divison

16:52:30 <Paolo_> zakim, ??P3 is me

zakim, ??P3 is me

16:52:30 <Zakim> +Paolo_; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo_; got it

16:52:43 <Paolo_> Luc: will put an example in the repo for discussion

Luc Moreau: will put an example in the repo for discussion

16:52:44 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:52:46 <GK> (I would like to see a use-case that *requires* the complex form of derivation.)

Graham Klyne: (I would like to see a use-case that *requires* the complex form of derivation.)

16:53:32 <stainPhone> if wasDerivedFrom(a,b) wasGenBy(a,x) used(b,x) then you are not guarantee that a was derived through that usage of b

Stian Soiland-Reyes: if wasDerivedFrom(a,b) wasGenBy(a,x) used(b,x) then you are not guarantee that a was derived through that usage of b

16:53:52 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:53:55 <pgroth> ack pgroth

Paul Groth: ack pgroth

16:53:59 <GK> OK, if it's useful, then maybe it can be descrtibed as a syntactic sugaring?

Graham Klyne: OK, if it's useful, then maybe it can be descrtibed as a syntactic sugaring?

16:54:32 <Paolo_> pgroth: possibly more than syntactic sugar?

Paul Groth: possibly more than syntactic sugar?

16:54:36 <pgroth> q?

Paul Groth: q?

16:54:39 <satya> @Stian: yes agree

Satya Sahoo: @Stian: yes agree

16:54:40 <GK> Thanks for letting us air the topic.

Graham Klyne: Thanks for letting us air the topic.

16:54:41 <Paolo_> GK: hopefully the example will reveal that

Graham Klyne: hopefully the example will reveal that

16:54:52 <Zakim> -Satya_Sahoo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Satya_Sahoo

16:54:53 <Zakim> -tlebo

Zakim IRC Bot: -tlebo

16:54:54 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.a]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.a]

16:54:55 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:54:56 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:54:56 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:54:57 <Zakim> -Curt_Tilmes

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt_Tilmes

16:54:58 <Zakim> -[IPcaller.aa]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller.aa]

16:54:59 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:55:01 <Zakim> -GK

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK

16:55:04 <Zakim> -??P64

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P64

16:55:10 <Zakim> - +329331aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: - +329331aacc

16:55:11 <stainPhone> imagine used(bZip,x) wasGenBy(bZip, y) used(b,y)

Stian Soiland-Reyes: imagine used(bZip,x) wasGenBy(bZip, y) used(b,y)

16:55:16 <Zakim> -Paolo_

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo_

16:55:17 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]

Zakim IRC Bot: -[IPcaller]

16:55:17 <Zakim> -??P9

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P9

16:55:33 <pgroth> rrsagent, set log public

Paul Groth: rrsagent, set log public

16:55:38 <pgroth> rrsagent, draft minutes

Paul Groth: rrsagent, draft minutes

16:55:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html pgroth

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html pgroth

16:55:43 <pgroth> trackbot, end telecon

Paul Groth: trackbot, end telecon

16:55:43 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, list attendees

16:55:43 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, jcheney, dgarijo,

Zakim IRC Bot: As of this point the attendees have been [IPcaller], Luc, +1.443.212.aaaa, Curt_Tilmes, GK, +1.315.330.aabb, tlebo, khalidbelhajjame, sandro, Satya_Sahoo, jun, jcheney, dgarijo,

16:55:46 <Zakim> ... pgroth, +329331aacc, Paolo_

Zakim IRC Bot: ... pgroth, +329331aacc, Paolo_

16:55:51 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, please draft minutes

16:55:51 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html trackbot

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2012/03/08-prov-minutes.html trackbot

16:55:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, bye

16:55:52 <RRSAgent> I see no action items

RRSAgent IRC Bot: I see no action items



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This revision (#2) generated 2012-03-08 20:30:33 UTC by 'pgroth', comments: 'minor typo'