Provenance Working Group Teleconference

Minutes of 04 August 2011

Agenda
http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.04
Seen
Christine Runnegar, Curt Tilmes, Daniel Garijo, David Corsar, Deborah McGuinness, Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti, Graham Klyne, James Myers, James Cheney, Jörn Hees, Kai Eckert, Khalid Belhajjame, Luc Moreau, Olaf Hartig, Paolo Missier, Paul Groth, Paulo Pinheiro da Silva, Reza B'Far, Sam Coppens, Satya Sahoo, Simon Miles, Ted Thibodeau, Timothy Lebo, Vinh Nguyen, Yogesh Simmhan
Regrets
Deborah McGuinness
Chair
Luc Moreau
Scribe
Christine Runnegar
IRC Log
Original and Editable Wiki Version
Resolutions
  1. last week's teleconference minutes. link
Topics
  1. Admin

    last week's minutes were approved.

  2. Name suggestions

    the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD. We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.

  3. Provenance Access Document

    Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.

  4. Provenance Ontology

    Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.

  5. Provenance Model Document

    Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August). Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review. We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.

  6. Formal semantics

    We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization. Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.

14:44:18 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-prov-irc

RRSAgent IRC Bot: logging to http://www.w3.org/2011/08/04-prov-irc

14:44:20 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world

Trackbot IRC Bot: RRSAgent, make logs world

14:44:22 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be

Trackbot IRC Bot: Zakim, this will be

14:44:22 <Zakim> I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand 'this will be', trackbot

14:44:23 <trackbot> Meeting: Provenance Working Group Teleconference
14:44:23 <trackbot> Date: 04 August 2011
14:44:30 <Luc> Zakim, this will be PROV

Luc Moreau: Zakim, this will be PROV

14:44:30 <Zakim> ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

Zakim IRC Bot: ok, Luc; I see SW_(PROV)11:00AM scheduled to start in 16 minutes

14:44:53 <Luc> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Meetings:Telecon2011.08.04
14:45:02 <Luc> Chair: Luc Moreau
14:45:18 <Luc> rrsagent, make logs public

Luc Moreau: rrsagent, make logs public

14:45:58 <Luc> Regrets: Deborah McGuinness
14:52:07 <Luc> Scribe: Christine

(No events recorded for 6 minutes)

(Scribe set to Christine Runnegar)

14:52:27 <Luc> Topic: Admin

1. Admin

Summary: last week's minutes were approved.

<luc>Summary: last week's minutes were approved.
14:52:53 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has now started

14:52:59 <Zakim> +??P33

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P33

14:53:12 <pgroth> Zakim, ??P33 is me

Paul Groth: Zakim, ??P33 is me

14:53:12 <Zakim> +pgroth; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +pgroth; got it

14:53:28 <Zakim> +??P34

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P34

14:53:48 <Zakim> +??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42

14:53:57 <Paolo> zakim, ??P42 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P42 is me

14:53:57 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

14:54:47 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

14:55:14 <Zakim> +??P42

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P42

14:55:19 <Luc> zakim, ??P42 is me

Luc Moreau: zakim, ??P42 is me

14:55:19 <Zakim> +Luc; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Luc; got it

14:55:26 <Luc> Paolo, you must be ??P34

Luc Moreau: Paolo, you must be ??P34

14:56:07 <Paolo> zakim, ??P34

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P34

14:56:09 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P34', Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P34', Paolo

14:56:12 <Paolo> zakim, ??P34 is me

Paolo Missier: zakim, ??P34 is me

14:56:12 <Zakim> +Paolo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +Paolo; got it

14:57:04 <Zakim> +Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt

14:59:59 <Zakim> +??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P20

15:01:30 <Zakim> +??P17

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P17

15:01:35 <Zakim> +??P53

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P53

15:01:36 <jcheney> zakim, ??P17 is me

James Cheney: zakim, ??P17 is me

15:01:39 <Zakim> +jcheney; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jcheney; got it

15:01:53 <Zakim> +??P57

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P57

15:01:55 <khalidbelhajjame> zakim, ??P53 is me

Khalid Belhajjame: zakim, ??P53 is me

15:01:59 <kai> zakim, ??P57 is me.

Kai Eckert: zakim, ??P57 is me.

15:02:15 <Zakim> +khalidbelhajjame; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +khalidbelhajjame; got it

15:02:18 <Christine> [Discussion of the agenda]

[Discussion of the agenda]

15:02:28 <Zakim> +kai; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +kai; got it

15:02:36 <Zakim> + +1.216.368.aaaa

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.216.368.aaaa

15:02:37 <Christine> No additional agenda items

No additional agenda items

15:02:38 <Zakim> +SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: +SamCoppens

15:02:40 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aabb

15:02:41 <Luc>    http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-28

Luc Moreau: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/meeting/2011-07-28

15:02:44 <Zakim> + +1.518.276.aacc

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.518.276.aacc

15:02:52 <Zakim> + +1.714.454.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.714.454.aadd

15:02:52 <satya> +1

Satya Sahoo: +1

15:02:52 <khalidbelhajjame> +1

Khalid Belhajjame: +1

15:02:54 <Zakim> +??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P28

15:02:54 <tlebo> +1

Timothy Lebo: +1

15:02:55 <Curt> +1

Curt Tilmes: +1

15:02:55 <Christine> Item 1 of agenda - to approve the minutes of the last telecon

Item 1 of agenda - to approve the minutes of the last telecon

15:02:56 <Paolo> +1

Paolo Missier: +1

15:02:56 <SamCoppens> +1

Sam Coppens: +1

15:03:00 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aaee

15:03:02 <olaf> +1

Olaf Hartig: +1

15:03:05 <dcorsar> +1

David Corsar: +1

15:03:09 <JimMyers> +1

James Myers: +1

15:03:09 <jcheney> +1

James Cheney: +1

15:03:11 <Edoardo> +1

Edoardo (Edoardo, Edoardo_and_David) Pignotti: +1

15:03:27 <kai> +1

Kai Eckert: +1

15:03:32 <olaf> zakim, aacc is me

Olaf Hartig: zakim, aacc is me

15:03:37 <smiles> +1

Simon Miles: +1

15:03:46 <Luc> Accepted: last week's teleconference minutes.

RESOLVED: last week's teleconference minutes.

15:04:00 <Zakim> +olaf; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +olaf; got it

15:04:04 <MacTed> Zakim, code?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, code?

15:04:09 <Christine> Item 2 of agenda - review outstanding items

Item 2 of agenda - review outstanding items

15:04:30 <Zakim> +??P62

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P62

15:04:31 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software

15:04:35 <Zakim> the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: the conference code is 7768 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), MacTed

15:04:35 <satya> zakim, 1.216.368.aaaa is me

Satya Sahoo: zakim, 1.216.368.aaaa is me

15:04:40 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is me

15:04:45 <GK1> zakim, ??P62 is me (I think)

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P62 is me (I think)

15:04:55 <Zakim> sorry, satya, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aaaa'

Zakim IRC Bot: sorry, satya, I do not recognize a party named '1.216.368.aaaa'

15:04:59 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:04:59 <Christine> need to follow up to see if new questionnaire is being produced

need to follow up to see if new questionnaire is being produced

15:04:59 <MacTed> Zakim, MacTed is OpenLink_Software

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, MacTed is OpenLink_Software

15:05:03 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P62 is me (I think)', GK1

Zakim IRC Bot: I don't understand '??P62 is me (I think)', GK1

15:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, OpenLink_Software is temporarily me

15:05:06 <MacTed> Zakim, mute me

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, mute me

15:05:08 <Christine> pgroth to follow up to see how this is progressing

pgroth to follow up to see how this is progressing

15:05:09 <Zakim> +OpenLink_Software; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +OpenLink_Software; got it

15:05:11 <Luc> Topic: Name suggestions

2. Name suggestions

Summary: the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD. We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.

<luc>Summary: the poll during the week indicated that PIL and PAST were the key contenders, with 6 and 5 votes respectively. Submit your name suggestions if you don't like these! The plan is to choose a name by mid-september, in time for the FPWD.  We should keep in mind that the name should work for a data model, an ontology, and access/query mechanisms.
15:05:11 <satya> zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me

Satya Sahoo: zakim, +1.216.368.aaaa is me

15:05:13 <MacTed> Zakim, who's here?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's here?

15:05:15 <Zakim> +MacTed; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +MacTed; got it

15:05:17 <Zakim> MacTed should now be muted

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed should now be muted

15:05:24 <Zakim> +satya; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +satya; got it

15:05:24 <GK1> zakim, ??P62 is me

Graham Klyne: zakim, ??P62 is me

15:05:26 <Zakim> +Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: +Yogesh

15:05:30 <Zakim> On the phone I see pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, ??P20, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, satya, +1.518.276.aabb, SamCoppens, olaf, +1.714.454.aadd, ??P28, +49.302.093.aaee, ??P62,

Zakim IRC Bot: On the phone I see pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, ??P20, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, satya, +1.518.276.aabb, SamCoppens, olaf, +1.714.454.aadd, ??P28, +49.302.093.aaee, ??P62,

15:05:35 <Zakim> ... MacTed (muted), Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: ... MacTed (muted), Yogesh

15:05:37 <Christine> Item 3 of agenda - the name for the standard

Item 3 of agenda - the name for the standard

15:05:56 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:05:59 <Christine> Luc: pgroth circulated a form to express views

Luc Moreau: pgroth circulated a form to express views

15:06:04 <Zakim> +GK1; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +GK1; got it

15:06:10 <Zakim> On IRC I see Yogesh, Reza_BFar, JimMyers, olaf, GK1_, kai, smiles, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Christine, tlebo, GK1, SamCoppens, Edoardo, dcorsar, Vinh, Curt, Paolo, satya, pgroth,

Zakim IRC Bot: On IRC I see Yogesh, Reza_BFar, JimMyers, olaf, GK1_, kai, smiles, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, Christine, tlebo, GK1, SamCoppens, Edoardo, dcorsar, Vinh, Curt, Paolo, satya, pgroth,

15:06:15 <Zakim> ... Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, sandro, trackbot

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Zakim, RRSAgent, Luc, MacTed, edsu, sandro, trackbot

15:06:50 <Christine> pgroth: 16 responses - 2 biggest PIL (6 votes) PAS (5 votes) 1 vote for ..

Paul Groth: 16 responses - 2 biggest PIL (6 votes) PAS (5 votes) 1 vote for ..

15:06:58 <Reza_BFar> I didn't vote yet, but +1 for PIL

Reza B'Far: I didn't vote yet, but +1 for PIL

15:07:11 <Christine> Luc: Is it representative?

Luc Moreau: Is it representative?

15:07:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:07:29 <Christine> pgroth: Could vote now or take another vote

Paul Groth: Could vote now or take another vote

15:07:44 <Zakim> +??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P10

15:07:47 <Paolo> I think the appeal of PAS is that it is actually PAST

Paolo Missier: I think the appeal of PAS is that it is actually PAST

15:07:51 <Christine> Luc: Concern about voting now is that a lot of people are on holiday

Luc Moreau: Concern about voting now is that a lot of people are on holiday

15:07:53 <Zakim> +??P12

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P12

15:08:04 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:08:06 <Christine> Luc: Graham also suggested another 2 or 3 names which could be considered

Luc Moreau: Graham also suggested another 2 or 3 names which could be considered

15:08:08 <satya> I also suggesed one - added to wiki

Satya Sahoo: I also suggesed one - added to wiki

15:08:09 <Zakim> + +1.915.603.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.915.603.aaff

15:08:11 <dgarijo> Zakim, ??P12 is me

Daniel Garijo: Zakim, ??P12 is me

15:08:11 <Zakim> +dgarijo; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +dgarijo; got it

15:08:27 <GK1> +1 to have a name by FPWD, not not urgent until then

Graham Klyne: +1 to have a name by FPWD, not not urgent until then

15:08:31 <Zakim> + +1.937.343.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: + +1.937.343.aagg

15:08:33 <Christine> pgroth: We need a name before going to public draft. Can leave poll open and close later.

Paul Groth: We need a name before going to public draft. Can leave poll open and close later.

15:08:47 <GK1> Maybe re-run the vote ...?

Graham Klyne: Maybe re-run the vote ...?

15:08:48 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:08:53 <GK1> (offline)

Graham Klyne: (offline)

15:08:53 <Christine> Luc: Agree. Put on agenda in September for decision by mid-September.

Luc Moreau: Agree. Put on agenda in September for decision by mid-September.

15:09:12 <Vinh> +1.915.603.aaff is me

Vinh Nguyen: +1.915.603.aaff is me

15:09:14 <Christine> pgroth: agree and will add other proposals and encourage people to vote

Paul Groth: agree and will add other proposals and encourage people to vote

15:09:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:09:41 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:09:48 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao

15:10:05 <Christine> Paolo: PIL has the term "language" in it - be aware

Paolo Missier: PIL has the term "language" in it - be aware

15:10:10 <satya> right

Satya Sahoo: right

15:10:12 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:10:21 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

15:10:32 <Christine> Satya: agree with Paolo re concern on "language"

Satya Sahoo: agree with Paolo re concern on "language"

15:10:40 <Christine> pgroth: add proposals to the wiki page

Paul Groth: add proposals to the wiki page

15:11:13 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:11:19 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Access Document

3. Provenance Access Document

Summary: Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.

<luc>Summary: Graham told us that a new version of the document was being released. In terms of timetable, editors will be away 6-20 September. The aim is to release a "pre-final" version by Sep 6, to be reviewed in their absence, with final version released by end of September.
15:11:21 <Christine> Luc: "language" is problematic - need to explain names on wiki page

Luc Moreau: "language" is problematic - need to explain names on wiki page

15:11:43 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:11:49 <GK1> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/a055a7987aa7/paq/provenance-access.html

Graham Klyne: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/a055a7987aa7/paq/provenance-access.html

15:12:48 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:13:27 <Christine> Graham: since last week, a lot of comments came in. I have been through Olaf's editorial comments and updated text accordingly. One issue defered - is it provenance information or another term. Also working on mercurial to include a proposal for simple HTTP interface for provenance discovery.

Graham Klyne: since last week, a lot of comments came in. I have been through Olaf's editorial comments and updated text accordingly. One issue defered - is it provenance information or another term. Also working on mercurial to include a proposal for simple HTTP interface for provenance discovery.

15:14:09 <Christine> Graham: Will need a little more work but thrust is visible from the proposal.

Graham Klyne: Will need a little more work but thrust is visible from the proposal.

15:14:14 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:15:05 <Christine> Lu and Graham: [discussion of timing and availability]

Lu and Graham: [discussion of timing and availability]

15:15:21 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:15:26 <Christine> Luc: first working draft by end of Sept?

Luc Moreau: first working draft by end of Sept?

15:16:38 <Christine> Luc: then final revision?

Luc Moreau: then final revision?

15:16:40 <khalidbelhajjame> end of August

Khalid Belhajjame: end of August

15:16:43 <khalidbelhajjame> ?

Khalid Belhajjame: ?

15:17:09 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:17:48 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:17:54 <MacTed> Zakim, who's noisy?

Ted Thibodeau: Zakim, who's noisy?

15:18:04 <Zakim> MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.302.093.aaee (23%), GK1 (20%)

Zakim IRC Bot: MacTed, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: +49.302.093.aaee (23%), GK1 (20%)

15:18:33 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Ontology

4. Provenance Ontology

Summary: Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.

<Luc>Summary: Satya reported back on the design of the provenance ontology. It was noted that progress on the ontology is dependent on progress on the model. Editors will be available during the summer period.
15:18:39 <MacTed> (whoever's breathing heavy in their headset... please note that you're causing other people's speech to drop out)

Ted Thibodeau: (whoever's breathing heavy in their headset... please note that you're causing other people's speech to drop out)

15:19:24 <Christine> Satya: [reporting on progress] - meeting on Monday with volunteers - are working on conceptual model and ontology

Satya Sahoo: [reporting on progress] - meeting on Monday with volunteers - are working on conceptual model and ontology

15:19:43 <dgarijo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

Daniel Garijo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

15:19:57 <satya> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html

Satya Sahoo: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/ontology/ProvenanceFormalModel.html

15:20:23 <Christine> Satya: comment on whether agree or not with document

Satya Sahoo: comment on whether agree or not with document

15:20:54 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:21:11 <Christine> Satya: not clear - since defining with OWL ...what other entailments? .. are we going to add other provenance semantics to our work?

Satya Sahoo: not clear - since defining with OWL ...what other entailments? .. are we going to add other provenance semantics to our work?

15:21:48 <Christine> Luc: discuss later today. re transitive which you raised - why is not explained in OWL

Luc Moreau: discuss later today. re transitive which you raised - why is not explained in OWL

15:22:05 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:22:18 <Christine> Satya: no comments received on available documents

Satya Sahoo: no comments received on available documents

15:22:40 <khalidbelhajjame> 	http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

Khalid Belhajjame: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

15:22:41 <tlebo> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

Timothy Lebo: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology

15:22:47 <Paolo> well, the OWL file it opens well in my protege :-)

Paolo Missier: well, the OWL file it opens well in my protege :-)

15:22:48 <dgarijo> yes, it is the link I posted before

Daniel Garijo: yes, it is the link I posted before

15:22:49 <GK1> (I probably won't attempt to review the formal model until the main conceptual model document settles.)

Graham Klyne: (I probably won't attempt to review the formal model until the main conceptual model document settles.)

15:23:08 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:23:09 <dgarijo> @Paolo: Satya prepared it in Protege :)

Daniel Garijo: @Paolo: Satya prepared it in Protege :)

15:23:15 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:23:21 <Luc> ack paolo

Luc Moreau: ack paolo

15:23:53 <Christine> Paolo: Clear distinction of OWL as encoding model and as a language for defining the semantics

Paolo Missier: Clear distinction of OWL as encoding model and as a language for defining the semantics

15:24:31 <tlebo> +1 paolo's distinction on conceptual model's semantics vs. the semantics encoded in OWL.

Timothy Lebo: +1 paolo's distinction on conceptual model's semantics vs. the semantics encoded in OWL.

15:24:33 <GK1> q+ to say that using OWL for structural definition could be confusing

Graham Klyne: q+ to say that using OWL for structural definition could be confusing

15:24:45 <GK1> q- ... what Paolo is saying :)

Graham Klyne: q- ... what Paolo is saying :)

15:24:46 <Christine> Satya: quick answer - by defn - OWL has own semantics - can't avoid that

Satya Sahoo: quick answer - by defn - OWL has own semantics - can't avoid that

15:24:50 <GK1> q-

Graham Klyne: q-

15:25:08 <GK1> s./Paolo/Satya/ (sorry)

Graham Klyne: s./Paolo/Satya/ (sorry)

15:25:35 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:25:46 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:25:55 <Christine> Satya: making sure conceptual model is captured in ontology

Satya Sahoo: making sure conceptual model is captured in ontology

15:26:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:26:56 <Christine> Luc and Satya: discuss further outside call

Luc and Satya: discuss further outside call

15:27:19 <Christine> Luc: [discussing availability of editors]

Luc Moreau: [discussing availability of editors]

15:27:31 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:27:45 <Luc> Topic: Provenance Model Document

5. Provenance Model Document

Summary: Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August). Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review. We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.

<luc>Summary: Paolo reported on the provenance model document. A revised version will be released by Monday, to be reviewed during editor's absence (most of the remaining part of August).   Editors are attempting to synthesize solutions following email discussions about issues raised, and close them, pending review.  We also confirmed that, following a vote during the week, the term BOB is replaced by Entity, in this new version of the document. The idea of a primer was discussed: while such a document is highly desirable, it was felt that the model is not stable enough to write a primer. It was suggested that developing the Data Journalism example in full, would be a step forward.
15:27:49 <Paolo> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html

Paolo Missier: http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/prov/raw-file/default/model/ProvenanceModel.html

15:28:01 <Christine> Paolo: link to latest version

Paolo Missier: link to latest version

15:28:30 <Christine> Paolo: more discussion on the list and some offlist - Luc did a good job of mapping issues to the document

Paolo Missier: more discussion on the list and some offlist - Luc did a good job of mapping issues to the document

15:29:24 <Christine> Paolo: a number of open issues - 2 main changes to document - issues now interleved in document - open/pending issues marked in document

Paolo Missier: a number of open issues - 2 main changes to document - issues now interleved in document - open/pending issues marked in document

15:30:29 <Christine> Paolo: with Luc - sections up to 5.3 have been reconsidered in view of the issues - can see the result

Paolo Missier: with Luc - sections up to 5.3 have been reconsidered in view of the issues - can see the result

15:31:16 <Christine> Luc: aim to have a new version by Monday night

Luc Moreau: aim to have a new version by Monday night

15:31:24 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:32:06 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:32:10 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:32:20 <smiles> q+

Simon Miles: q+

15:32:27 <Christine> Luc: we will continue working on doc in September

Luc Moreau: we will continue working on doc in September

15:32:56 <Christine> pgroth: Are we still discussing core definitions? How settled are the core concepts?

Paul Groth: Are we still discussing core definitions? How settled are the core concepts?

15:34:20 <GK1> I acknowledge that I need to come back with something approaching an evaluatable proposal.

Graham Klyne: I acknowledge that I need to come back with something approaching an evaluatable proposal.

15:34:27 <Christine> Luc: Difficult to answer. Issues have been raised regarding the core of the model.

Luc Moreau: Difficult to answer. Issues have been raised regarding the core of the model.

15:34:46 <pgroth> q+ to ask about "other concepts"

Paul Groth: q+ to ask about "other concepts"

15:34:54 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:34:56 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:34:56 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"

15:35:11 <pgroth> q+ to ask about "other concepts"

Paul Groth: q+ to ask about "other concepts"

15:35:13 <GK1> I came round to agree with transitivity of derivation.

Graham Klyne: I came round to agree with transitivity of derivation.

15:35:33 <Christine> Luc: For example. Transitivity is a difficult issue.

Luc Moreau: For example. Transitivity is a difficult issue.

15:35:59 <GK1> My main concern is the nature of "Entities".

Graham Klyne: My main concern is the nature of "Entities".

15:36:15 <khalidbelhajjame> +q

Khalid Belhajjame: +q

15:36:31 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aaee

Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aaee

15:36:54 <Paolo> q+

Paolo Missier: q+

15:36:55 <Christine> SimonM: Are we intended to release anything in September? How might use the model? or the access document?

Simon Miles: Are we intended to release anything in September? How might use the model? or the access document?

15:37:05 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:37:10 <Christine> Luc: Good question - are they stable enough to write a primer?

Luc Moreau: Good question - are they stable enough to write a primer?

15:37:29 <Zakim> + +49.302.093.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: + +49.302.093.aahh

15:37:38 <Christine> Luc: Did not commit to release primer by then

Luc Moreau: Did not commit to release primer by then

15:37:50 <Luc> ack smi

Luc Moreau: ack smi

15:37:58 <Paolo> I really believe the primer[model] should go hand in hand with the model conceptualization

Paolo Missier: I really believe the primer[model] should go hand in hand with the model conceptualization

15:38:13 <GK1> q+ to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.

Graham Klyne: q+ to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.

15:38:47 <Christine> pgroth: Don't think we can expect to have a draft primer for this - not enough bandwidth and not close enough to being finished - more to reach out to technical people

Paul Groth: Don't think we can expect to have a draft primer for this - not enough bandwidth and not close enough to being finished - more to reach out to technical people

15:38:49 <tlebo> @paolo "hand in hand" - interleaved within same document?

Timothy Lebo: @paolo "hand in hand" - interleaved within same document?

15:38:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:39:05 <Luc> ack satya

Luc Moreau: ack satya

15:39:06 <Christine> Luc: Could we express the model with alternate ways of encoding? not a primer in itself

Luc Moreau: Could we express the model with alternate ways of encoding? not a primer in itself

15:39:14 <Paolo> @tlebo -- no, rather meant just what Luc just said

Paolo Missier: @tlebo -- no, rather meant just what Luc just said

15:39:38 <Christine> Satya: Daniel mentioned - have concepts of location and time in ontology but no properties linking these concepts to entity

Satya Sahoo: Daniel mentioned - have concepts of location and time in ontology but no properties linking these concepts to entity

15:39:56 <Paolo> challenge the model with new examples where we are able to describe how the model is used in plain language

Paolo Missier: challenge the model with new examples where we are able to describe how the model is used in plain language

15:40:01 <dgarijo> it's true, I forgot to bring'em on here >.<

Daniel Garijo: it's true, I forgot to bring'em on here >.<

15:40:16 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:40:16 <Zakim> pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"

Zakim IRC Bot: pgroth, you wanted to ask about "other concepts"

15:40:51 <Christine> pgroth: Brought up an issue a month ago about particular concepts I thought were vital to have that may be able to expressed within current concepts of the model. Would like your view on that.

Paul Groth: Brought up an issue a month ago about particular concepts I thought were vital to have that may be able to expressed within current concepts of the model. Would like your view on that.

15:41:04 <Christine> pgroth: Things like attribution

Paul Groth: Things like attribution

15:41:12 <Zakim> -??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4

15:41:46 <Paolo> Q?

Paolo Missier: Q?

15:41:50 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:41:53 <Christine> Luc: It is a good idea. The issue is raised in the document. A new section has been added. Hope to have something in it by Monday.

Luc Moreau: It is a good idea. The issue is raised in the document. A new section has been added. Hope to have something in it by Monday.

15:41:59 <jorn> zakim, ??p4 is me

Jörn Hees: zakim, ??p4 is me

15:41:59 <Zakim> +jorn; got it

Zakim IRC Bot: +jorn; got it

15:42:13 <Zakim> - +1.714.454.aadd

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.714.454.aadd

15:42:15 <Luc> ack kh

Luc Moreau: ack kh

15:42:53 <Christine> Khalid: Would it help to priortise issues that are fixed to coverge more quickly on core issues such as transitivity.

Khalid Belhajjame: Would it help to priortise issues that are fixed to coverge more quickly on core issues such as transitivity.

15:43:23 <Christine> Luc: Paolo and I have tried to prioritise. Some natural selection on issues via email traffic.

Luc Moreau: Paolo and I have tried to prioritise. Some natural selection on issues via email traffic.

15:43:42 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:43:46 <Luc> ack pao

Luc Moreau: ack pao

15:43:49 <Christine> Luc: We hope to have proposals by Monday.

Luc Moreau: We hope to have proposals by Monday.

15:44:50 <satya> +1 for Paolo's point - I actually see the conceptual model as a primer

Satya Sahoo: +1 for Paolo's point - I actually see the conceptual model as a primer

15:44:50 <Christine> Paolo: Clarifying earlier comment. Need more examples [sound dropped out] ... we need some easy explanation of what we are trying to get at .. does not need to be released .. internal

Paolo Missier: Clarifying earlier comment. Need more examples [sound dropped out] ... we need some easy explanation of what we are trying to get at .. does not need to be released .. internal

15:44:55 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

15:46:25 <Christine> Graham: Comment cuts across primer and concept document - one problem I had when I was reviewing this - a lot of the language was over specialised even for a technical audience - implicit or tacit knowledge bound up in what was explained.

Graham Klyne: Comment cuts across primer and concept document - one problem I had when I was reviewing this - a lot of the language was over specialised even for a technical audience - implicit or tacit knowledge bound up in what was explained.

15:46:49 <Paolo> @GK +1

Paolo Missier: @GK +1

15:46:51 <Luc> ack gk

Luc Moreau: ack gk

15:46:52 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to note that part of my problem in responding to the model has been that the language used seems to over-specialized in places.

15:46:53 <Christine> Graham: Perhaps less specialised language document - to explain

Graham Klyne: Perhaps less specialised language document - to explain

15:47:07 <Luc> ack saty

Luc Moreau: ack saty

15:47:18 <Paulo> q+

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: q+

15:47:20 <Christine> Satya: primer in the sense that Luc and Simon - aggregation on model and access?

Satya Sahoo: primer in the sense that Luc and Simon - aggregation on model and access?

15:47:31 <Zakim> -Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt

15:47:39 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:47:48 <GK1> +1

Graham Klyne: +1

15:47:49 <Christine> Satya: primer should only be done after closure on the models - otherwise premature

Satya Sahoo: primer should only be done after closure on the models - otherwise premature

15:48:33 <Christine> Paulo: Like the idea of challenging the model - doing this through issue 26

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: Like the idea of challenging the model - doing this through ISSUE-26

15:48:57 <Christine> Paulo: Looking for response to my issue by email

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: Looking for response to my issue by email

15:48:58 <satya> Paolo/Paulo

Satya Sahoo: Paolo/Paulo

15:49:17 <Christine> [Scribe apologising for name]

[Scribe apologising for name]

15:49:50 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:49:53 <Luc> ack pau

Luc Moreau: ack pau

15:50:16 <Zakim> +Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: +Curt

15:50:17 <Christine> Luc: vote during the week - entity was definitely leading

Luc Moreau: vote during the week - entity was definitely leading

15:50:30 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:50:37 <Christine> Luc: using "entity" for the document

Luc Moreau: using "entity" for the document

15:51:09 <Luc> Topic: Formal semantics

6. Formal semantics

Summary: We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization. Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.

<luc>Summary: We continued our discussion on the scope of a formal semantics, trying to identify what differentiates it from the OWL formalization. James drafted a wiki page, suggesting issues that the formal semantics could tackle, and which cannot be addressed by the OWL formalization.  Group members are invited to contribute their views on this page.
15:50:59 <Christine> Luc: formal semantics - would like to open the debate again and understand the scope of the semantics

Luc Moreau: formal semantics - would like to open the debate again and understand the scope of the semantics

15:52:04 <Christine> JamesC: As Satya mentioned, we discussed on Monday. Things such as transitivity.

James Cheney: As Satya mentioned, we discussed on Monday. Things such as transitivity.

15:52:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:52:37 <jcheney> http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics

James Cheney: http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics

15:52:40 <Christine> JamesC: end result - some comments will be added to OWL ontology doc

James Cheney: end result - some comments will be added to OWL ontology doc

15:52:49 <satya> @James, can you please repeat the example - missed the issue sorry

Satya Sahoo: @James, can you please repeat the example - missed the issue sorry

15:53:32 <Christine> JamesC: In the meantime look at the wiki (see link)

James Cheney: In the meantime look at the wiki (see link)

15:54:28 <Christine> JamesC: various constraints mentioned in the document - simple one - [stating an order on data values related to class in OWL] - not sure if can be expressed

James Cheney: various constraints mentioned in the document - simple one - [stating an order on data values related to class in OWL] - not sure if can be expressed

15:55:07 <Christine> Satya: now looking at "source assertion" - exactly what I mean about entailments [?]

Satya Sahoo: now looking at "source assertion" - exactly what I mean about entailments [?]

15:55:59 <Christine> @Satya pls write your example for the minutes

@Satya pls write your example for the minutes

15:56:38 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:57:17 <Zakim> -jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: -jorn

15:57:35 <Paulo> if look into the owl specification itself, we will see that they talk about entailment but also about consistency, equivalence, etc

Paulo Pinheiro da Silva: if look into the owl specification itself, we will see that they talk about entailment but also about consistency, equivalence, etc

15:57:52 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:58:03 <pgroth> +q

Paul Groth: +q

15:58:18 <Christine> Luc: comments/suggestions for scoping semantics?

Luc Moreau: comments/suggestions for scoping semantics?

15:58:31 <Zakim> +??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: +??P4

15:58:34 <satya> @James OWL2 direct semantics: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-direct-semantics/ was the document I was refering to

Satya Sahoo: @James OWL2 direct semantics: http://www.w3.org/TR/owl2-direct-semantics/ was the document I was refering to

15:58:53 <Christine> Paul; conceptual model should do what it needs to do for standardising services - should not constrain with what we can do in OWL

Paul; conceptual model should do what it needs to do for standardising services - should not constrain with what we can do in OWL

15:58:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

15:59:00 <Luc> ack pg

Luc Moreau: ack pg

15:59:08 <GK1> @paul +1

Graham Klyne: @paul +1

15:59:09 <Christine> PauL; OWL seems to be working

PauL; OWL seems to be working

15:59:13 <satya> @Christine, sorry the example?

Satya Sahoo: @Christine, sorry the example?

16:00:07 <dgarijo> what about the rules? (some of them can be produced while we do the ontology, in RIFF, for instance)

Daniel Garijo: what about the rules? (some of them can be produced while we do the ontology, in RIFF, for instance)

16:00:10 <Christine> @satya - when you were talking about entailment - [perhaps someone else can help]

@satya - when you were talking about entailment - [perhaps someone else can help]

16:00:47 <GK1> q+ to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that

Graham Klyne: q+ to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that

16:01:03 <satya> @James, can we add a link to your page from the formal model wiki page created by TimL?

Satya Sahoo: @James, can we add a link to your page from the formal model wiki page created by TimL?

16:01:33 <dgarijo> @satya I think that will be a good idea.

Daniel Garijo: @satya I think that will be a good idea.

16:01:46 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:02:52 <Luc> ack GK

Luc Moreau: ack GK

16:02:52 <Zakim> GK, you wanted to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that

Zakim IRC Bot: GK, you wanted to say following paul to identify what inferences are desired to standardize, then figure out what formal semantics can achieve that

16:03:02 <Christine> .... Luc: agree with you - trying to gather requirements for formal semantics makes sense

.... Luc: agree with you - trying to gather requirements for formal semantics makes sense

16:03:13 <tlebo> I already added a reference to http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics from http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology#Initial_comments.2Fsuggestions_about_the_ontology and http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Model_Task_Force#Materials_discussing_Concepts

Timothy Lebo: I already added a reference to http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/FormalSemantics from http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/PIL_OWL_Ontology#Initial_comments.2Fsuggestions_about_the_ontology and http://www.w3.org/2011/prov/wiki/Model_Task_Force#Materials_discussing_Concepts

16:03:28 <Zakim> -SamCoppens

Zakim IRC Bot: -SamCoppens

16:03:36 <dgarijo> @tlebo nice!

Daniel Garijo: @tlebo nice!

16:03:55 <satya> @GK, agree with this approach

Satya Sahoo: @GK, agree with this approach

16:04:09 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:04:10 <Christine> Graham: if can identify inferences that are desired and then later as the other aspects of the formal semantic settle can see if are covered or not. Thinking of the discussion on transitivity and derviation.

Graham Klyne: if can identify inferences that are desired and then later as the other aspects of the formal semantic settle can see if are covered or not. Thinking of the discussion on transitivity and derviation.

16:04:31 <satya> q+

Satya Sahoo: q+

16:04:43 <Luc> ack saty

Luc Moreau: ack saty

16:04:51 <Christine> Satya: what was the resolution?

Satya Sahoo: what was the resolution?

16:05:10 <Christine> Luc: my view is that we should keep it separate

Luc Moreau: my view is that we should keep it separate

16:05:30 <pgroth> we make the decision later

Paul Groth: we make the decision later

16:05:50 <Zakim> - +1.915.603.aaff

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.915.603.aaff

16:06:18 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:06:22 <GK1> I think I'm less interested in completeness; obviously want soundness :)

Graham Klyne: I think I'm less interested in completeness; obviously want soundness :)

16:06:38 <jcheney> q+

James Cheney: q+

16:07:17 <GK1> @satya: auto verification - surely that's only for constraints expressible in OWL?

Graham Klyne: @satya: auto verification - surely that's only for constraints expressible in OWL?

16:07:36 <Luc> ack jch

Luc Moreau: ack jch

16:07:37 <khalidbelhajjame> do we need to make the decision now as to whether to have a separate formal (in the mathematical sense) semantics or not?

Khalid Belhajjame: do we need to make the decision now as to whether to have a separate formal (in the mathematical sense) semantics or not?

16:07:44 <satya> @GK yes agree

Satya Sahoo: @GK yes agree

16:08:03 <khalidbelhajjame> we can postopone that to later, when we have the OWL schema

Khalid Belhajjame: we can postopone that to later, when we have the OWL schema

16:08:42 <GK1> @jch +1

Graham Klyne: @jch +1

16:08:57 <Luc> q?

Luc Moreau: q?

16:09:08 <Zakim> - +49.302.093.aahh

Zakim IRC Bot: - +49.302.093.aahh

16:09:18 <satya> @James, agree that is why we are facing difficulty in encoding the conceptual model in OWL

Satya Sahoo: @James, agree that is why we are facing difficulty in encoding the conceptual model in OWL

16:09:37 <satya> since many of the concepts are still not well/stably defined

Satya Sahoo: since many of the concepts are still not well/stably defined

16:09:46 <GK1> Makes sense, but may be a tough call :)

Graham Klyne: Makes sense, but may be a tough call :)

16:09:51 <Zakim> -satya

Zakim IRC Bot: -satya

16:09:52 <Zakim> -olaf

Zakim IRC Bot: -olaf

16:09:53 <Zakim> -Yogesh

Zakim IRC Bot: -Yogesh

16:09:53 <Zakim> -??P4

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P4

16:09:53 <Zakim> - +1.518.276.aabb

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.518.276.aabb

16:09:54 <Zakim> -pgroth

Zakim IRC Bot: -pgroth

16:09:54 <Zakim> -khalidbelhajjame

Zakim IRC Bot: -khalidbelhajjame

16:09:57 <Zakim> -Curt

Zakim IRC Bot: -Curt

16:09:58 <Zakim> -jcheney

Zakim IRC Bot: -jcheney

16:10:00 <Zakim> -GK1

Zakim IRC Bot: -GK1

16:10:02 <Zakim> -Paolo

Zakim IRC Bot: -Paolo

16:10:04 <Zakim> -??P28

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P28

16:10:06 <Zakim> -??P20

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P20

16:10:08 <Zakim> -kai

Zakim IRC Bot: -kai

16:10:10 <Zakim> -Luc

Zakim IRC Bot: -Luc

16:10:12 <Zakim> -dgarijo

Zakim IRC Bot: -dgarijo

16:10:15 <Zakim> -MacTed

Zakim IRC Bot: -MacTed

16:10:16 <Zakim> - +1.937.343.aagg

Zakim IRC Bot: - +1.937.343.aagg

16:10:35 <satya> sorry Christine, I don't remember the example, we can leave it out of the mins?

Satya Sahoo: sorry Christine, I don't remember the example, we can leave it out of the mins?

16:11:02 <Zakim> -??P10

Zakim IRC Bot: -??P10

16:11:04 <Zakim> SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

Zakim IRC Bot: SW_(PROV)11:00AM has ended

16:11:06 <Zakim> Attendees were pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, +1.714.454.aadd, +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, MacTed, satya,

Zakim IRC Bot: Attendees were pgroth, Paolo, Luc, Curt, jcheney, khalidbelhajjame, kai, SamCoppens, +1.518.276.aabb, +1.518.276.aacc, +1.714.454.aadd, +49.302.093.aaee, olaf, MacTed, satya,

16:11:09 <Zakim> ... Yogesh, GK1, +1.915.603.aaff, dgarijo, +1.937.343.aagg, +49.302.093.aahh, jorn

Zakim IRC Bot: ... Yogesh, GK1, +1.915.603.aaff, dgarijo, +1.937.343.aagg, +49.302.093.aahh, jorn



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This revision (#3) generated 2011-08-05 08:17:07 UTC by 'unknown', comments: None