<scribe> Scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver

<scribe> ScribeNick: Andi

ACTION-925

ARIA TF agreed we can defer to after LC but we need to include an editorial note

use asterisk, footnote, or refer to a section that contains the ed note

ISSUE-466

in ARIA spec and UAIG...

"Except for the cases outlined below, user agents MUST always use the WAI-ARIA semantics to define how it exposes the element to accessibility APIs, rather than using the host language semantics.

"When a WAI-ARIA role is provided, user agents MUST use the semantic of the WAI-ARIA role for processing, not the native semantic, unless the role requires WAI-ARIA states and properties whose attributes that are explicitly forbidden on the native element by the host language."

AS: think the assumption when these statements were written was that this applies when there is a direct mapping from the ARIA role to the AAPI role
... the situation in ISSUE-466 is where there is not a direct mapping to the AAPI, as is the case with landmarks

CS: so we need to clarify the text without causing the ARIA spec to revert to LC

MC: if we put in a clarifying statement, does it change the normative requirement in WAI-ARIA

CS: on the edge - implementers have interpreted the spec differently

MC: could put in an editorial note but then may have a problem with the comments received
... in some cases, we have deferred changes to 1.1
... asking for feedback is the best idea
... in practice, some of this may be dealt with by the HTML implementation guide

CS: probably not in this case where the ARIA role has no direct mapping to an AAPI role
... Safari does not expose the native semantics. IE and FF do expose them.

DB: in FF, provide all information to the AT and let them make the decision

MC: strategically, proposed clarification statement supports what two browsers are doing - would be able to pass CR
... unless Apple files a formal objection, this will not affect ARIA 1.0 getting to Rec

CS: Apple agreed with the resolution of the issue
... don't expect they would file a formal objection

AS: do we need the editorial note or can we just review draft text with James prior to publication?

CS: think we should include the note - there may be others who would have an issue

AS: Google does plan to review the UAIG

MC: suggest text for ed note - requirement interpreted in two ways, text seems to impose a requirement that was only intended in certain cases

Meeting the next two weeks?

AS: on vacation, expect all action items to be done and editing complete by the end of this week
... propose no meeting December 20th and 27th
... next meeting will be the first day back from the holiday for most people - January 3rd - could start talking about test approaches and thinking about additional testing required for the UAIG beyond what is already being done for WAI-ARIA.

Agreed

<Char> Scribe: Char James-Tanny

<Char> Meeting: AAPI

<Char> Chair: Cynthia Shelly

<JohnS> sorry redialing in, had an issue with my connectiong

Status Update

<cyns> test

<Stevef> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/html-api-map/raw-file/tip/Overview.html

<Char> Steve: Current state of "HTML to Platform Accessibility APIs Implementation Guide"

<cyns> Zakmi, Microosft has me

<Char> Steve: Some information was taken from the ARIA guide; one table was taken from the HTML spec

<Char> Steve: Main role table isn't complete, but has a lot of data already. Attribute table has very little data.

<Char> Steve: Has started to provide accessible name information for various types of inputs

<Char> Steve: Has been asking for feedback from implementors (current/future) on format

<Char> Steve: Only feedback has been received from Alexander (need last name) because it was specifically asked for, will be simplifying form for accessible names

<Char> Steve: Would like other implementor feedback as well. Would like to avoid ambiguity and over-simplification.

<cyns> Alexander Surkov

<Char> Steve: More information coming from specs

<Char> ACTION: Identify appropriate people at vendors who we should talk to [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action01]

<Char> Steve: Firefox has added an algorithm to determine if table is layout or data; would be nice if other browsers did the same.

<Char> Steve: Char (as tech writer) could help figure out if steps are documented correctly

<Char> Cyns: Has worked more on other document

<Char> Cyns: Is listed as an editor, will be working primarily on specific areas

<Char> Steve: we can add columns to the existing table to account for Blackberry information

<Char> Steve: we have to look at how we actually format the information, because too many columns will be unwieldy

<Char> ACTION: Look at how information is formatted to make it more usable (without too many columns) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action02]

<jkiss> http://www.accessibleculture.org/misc-tests/w3c/html-api/html5-api-elements-mac-actual.html

<Char> Jason: Has started working on mappings in Mac accessibility API

<jkiss> http://www.accessibleculture.org/misc-tests/w3c/html-api/elements.html

<Char> Jason: Creating elements as needed to test them

<Char> Jason: will be looking at this some more during week between Christmas and New Year's

<Stevef> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/form-test.html

<Char> Steve: will list tests he's used for the different elements

<Stevef> http://www.html5accessibility.com/tests/ARIA-tests/

<Char> cyns: Need to decide how to manage bugs list

<Char> ACTION: Get BugZilla set up for work management [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action03]

<Char> ACTION: Cyns will go through and add current items to BugZilla [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action04]

<Char> cyns: wonders if any HTML5 deadlines impact anything we're doing

<Char> cyns: Would like to have solid draft to use for testing with IE10

<Char> cyns: would like solid draft by end of January (which does not necessarily have anything to do with IE10)

<Char> Steve: document was originally intended as informative, not normative

<Char> cyns: Normative docs are official W3C specs, have been tested, are conformant

<cyns> January date is not related to IE10, but to having something useful soon

<Char> cyns: implementors would decide if document needs to be informative or normative

<Char> cyns: need to figure out where the holes are, probably big holes in UA stuff

<Char> Steve: ARIA implementation is probably more convergent than HTML API doc

<Char> cyns: need to document what's currently happening and what's in the guide to determine where the differences are

<Char> Steve: should there be other roles, and if yes, how do we add them? Need to get them defined within existing APIs

<Stevef> WAI-ARIA 1.0 User Agent Implementation Guide http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/aria-implementation/

<Char> cyns: open issue with control types and UIA, roles, (pipes)

<Stevef> char: larry weiss

<Char> Steve: David has been working on new role information (pointed to an MDN document)

<Stevef> http://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webcomponents/raw-file/tip/explainer/index.html

<Char> Steve: process for adding a role is laborious, although much easier on the Mac API (just need to indicate name and definition for Mac)

<Char> Davidb: little bit of information in UUAG, but not really documented

<Char> cyns: for UIA, combine patterns to create roles; patterns are invokable and selectable

<Char> Steve: Web Components is something we need to be thinking about (link above). Talks about extending elements. Have to watch out for hazards and API mappings.

<Char> lweiss: talking about information that can be retrieved, doesn't talk about how browser determines structure, doesn't talk about any direct AT interaction with elements

<Char> cyns: ARIA is one-way API, HTML is not

<Char> davidb: we need to talk about HTML events, too

<Char> stevef: HTML API document hasn't been completely scoped out

<Char> ACTION: Have to add Actions and Events sections to HTML API doc [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action05]

<Char> ACTION: Steve will set up wiki page with base information, will collect test URLs [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action06]

<Char> ACTION: Jason will add Mac stuff to wiki once it's set up [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action07]

<Char> ACTION: Char will talk to implementors on what would be most useful (until she can actually edit) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action08]

<Char> cyns: group will meet weekly, except over holidays

<Char> ACTION: David will do something with documents, will come up with automatic process for Firefox mapping [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html#action09]

<Char> cyns: next meeting will be January 3

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/DB: so we need/CS: so we need/
Succeeded: s/Safari/CS: Safari/
Succeeded: s/action-925/ACTION-925/
Succeeded: s/caes with landmarks/case with landmarks/
Found Scribe: Andi_Snow-Weaver
Found ScribeNick: Andi
Found Scribe: Char James-Tanny
Scribes: Andi_Snow-Weaver, Char James-Tanny
Default Present: David_Bolter, Andi_Snow_Weaver, Cynthia_Shelly, Michael_Cooper
Present: Cynthia_Shelly Char_James-Tanny Steve_Faulkner Jason_Kiss David_Bolter John_S_Lee Larry_Weiss
Got date from IRC log name: 13 Dec 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/13-aapi-minutes.html
People with action items: add appropriate at char cyns david formatted get have how identify information is jason look mac people should steve stuff talk vendors we who will

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