See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 08 December 2011
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq9
kp: what do we think about using 'modality independence' here?
<Greg> My comment was agreeing with Jan that it's redundant to say "with the keyboard alone" since elsewhere we say all functionality has to be available through the keyboard alone. But I could accept it anyway.
<Greg> I'm scared of setting the precedence of including "modality independence" or "with the keyboard" in every SC we touch.
greg's device independence SC http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
this has been added into the document.
someone needs to go through the document to find keyboard and replace with device independence
kf: do we need every one of
these
... you can have onMouseup, onmousedown, onkeypress, etc.
... what do we really mean here?
<Greg> The list of intrinsic event handlers defined by HTML 4 is at http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/scripts.html#h-18.2.3; of course, other formats would have other lists of events.
gl: 19 events listed in HTML 4
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to write in status for next public draft to ask 2.6.1 and 2.6.2 are these clear enough for UA developers or do we need to provide more guideance. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-677 - Write in status for next public draft to ask 2.6.1 and 2.6.2 are these clear enough for UA developers or do we need to provide more guideance. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
<Greg> So I'd prefer "The user can call up a list of input device event handlers explicitly associated with the keyboard focus element. (Level A)" and leave the keyboard requirement to 2.1.1, but I won't insist on it.
<KimPatch> More concise phrase for intent: make sure that control is available to any type of input method
gl: 262 and 262 don't make sense separated. perhaps combine.
<scribe> scribe: jallan
<Greg> I agree that 2.6.1 is useless without 2.6.2, and 2.6.2 would be less usable without 2.6.1, so they would be better combined.
kp: would be clearer
combined
... should combine intents
261 Users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user agent, he or she need to know all the input methods assigned to a particular piece of content.
262 Although it should not do so, some Web content is designed to work only with certain input devices, such as a mouse, and make functionality available only through event handlers for those devices. Some users interacting with a web browser may be doing so by voice, keyboard, mouse or another input technology or a combination of any of these. No matter how the user is controlling the user...
scribe: agent, he or she must be able to activate any of the event handlers regardless of the interaction technology being used.
263 One input method should not hold back another. People who don't use a mouse shouldn't necessarily have to map their input methods to the same steps a mouse user would take.
gl: could combine all 3
<Greg> We could combine all three, 2.6.1, 2.6.2, and 2.6.3 to form something like:
<Greg> 2.6.x Activate any event handlers: The user can [, through keyboard input alone,] call up a list of input device event handlers explicitly associated with the keyboard focus element, and activate any one or more... (Level A)
wd: difference between keyboard and content focus?
gl: is there a generic event handler rather than specific handlers?
ja: much of this may be covered by indie-ui
kf: what do think of the combo
<Greg> Reducing the number of SC is good, even though in this case we'll have a Guideline with only one SC.
wd, ja, kp, kf +1
<scribe> ACTION: kp to write a combo of 261-263 to one SC, and intents, etc. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action02]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-678 - Write a combo of 261-263 to one SC, and intents, etc. [on Kimberly Patch - due 2011-12-15].
we should have some note at top of document. over arching principle of modality Independence with explanation. 'the user can' means by any method possible
<scribe> ACTION: kim to write note for top of document about overarching principle of modality independence [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-679 - Write note for top of document about overarching principle of modality independence [on Kimberly Patch - due 2011-12-15].
wd: need help with wording 253, 255, 1102
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq2
5 yeses.
kf: NO
2.7.8 Preferences Wizard: A wizard helps the user to configure the accessibility-related user agent preferences (at least). (Level AAA)
kf: makes no sense.
gl: not so happy with it. remove (at least), define wizard
<Greg> I had four concerns, but said since it is AAA I wouldn't veto it.
kf: remove 'at least'
all agree
discussion of singular or plural wizard(s)
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to remove "at least" in 2.7.8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-680 - Remove "at least" in 2.7.8 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
<Greg> I seem to be in the minority as to whether singular vs. plural is normative and prescriptive, which I can live with here because it's AAA, but I note that the same problem could come back to bite us on another SC which is higher priority so it actually matters.
one or more wizards
all ok with plural wizards
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq3
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add "one or more wizards" to 2.7.8 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-681 - Add "one or more wizards" to 2.7.8 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
<KimPatch> One or more wizards help the user configure
rssagent, set logs public
4 yes, 1 no
gl: where is language about combining 281 with other stuff. new survey has action-571 combining all toolbars sc
<Greg> Item 2 in the 8 December 2011 survey combines this SC with others, thus making this specific discussion obsolete:
<Greg> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111206
<Greg> It reads: 2. Action-517 Action-513: These were related so I combined them creating a new SC. Configure Toolbars: When graphical user agent user interface have toolbars or similar containers the user can add, remove, and reorder items within each toolbar. Also, the user can install, uninstall, show, hide, and reorder toolbars.
<Greg> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111206/results#xq2
simon rewrite: Configure Toolbars: When graphical user agent user interface has toolbars or similar containers the user can add, remove, and reorder items within each toolbar; and if appropriate, install, uninstall, show, hide, and reorder multiple-toolbars.
wd: remove "graphical user agent' just say when user interface...
<Greg> In my survey comments, agreeing with Chaals, I suggested "The user can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers, and the items within them" with Intent to include "This success criterion is about giving the user control over which user interface elements are visible and usable, where they are visually located on the screen, and where they fall in the navigation order. In...
<Greg> ...some cases adjusting whether an element is visible and usable may involve installing/uninstalling a component, or merely showing/hiding it, depending on the user agent and the specific component."
The user can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers, and the items within them; and if appropriate, install, uninstall, show, hide, and reorder multiple-toolbars.
wd: this is very important to lv folks
lv=low vision
wd: why is this AAA
kf: greg short OK, need intent
<Greg> So here's my proposal:
<Greg> 2.8.1 Toolbar Configuration: The user can add, remove, and reorder any toolbars and similar containers, and the items within them.
<Greg> Intent: ...This success criterion is about giving the user control over which user interface elements are visible and usable, where they are visually located on the screen, and where they fall in the navigation order. In some cases adjusting whether an element is visible and usable may involve installing/uninstalling a component, or merely showing/hiding it, depending on the user agent and...
<Greg> ...the specific component.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update 2.8.1 with the above text. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-682 - Update 2.8.1 with the above text. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
this is important for many users LV, keyboard, speech, etc
all agree to move AA
<Greg> I agree the benefit is high, but I'm a bit concerned that most user agents (other than the major web browsers) don't include the ability to modify their UI.
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to change level of 2.8.1 from AAA to AA. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-683 - Change level of 2.8.1 from AAA to AA. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
ok as is shoudl be AA
<Greg> I agree that if they're configurable, they should be resettable at the same priority level.
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to change level of 2.8.2 from AAA to AA. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action08]
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq5
kf: sounds strange
make it adjustable timing
gl: tense agreement
<jeanne> ACTION: to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing" and make the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action09]
<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - to
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add 2.9.1 Adjustable timing. Where time limits for user input are recognized and controllable by the user agent, the user can extend the time limits. (Level A) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action10]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-684 - Add 2.9.1 Adjustable timing. Where time limits for user input are recognized and controllable by the user agent, the user can extend the time limits. (Level A) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing" and make the last word plural - "time limits" [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action11]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-685 - Update 2.9.1 with handle "adjustable timing" and make the last word plural - "time limits" [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq6
js: "shows" is vague, programatically accessible manner
<Greg> We could address Jeanne's concern by making it 4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties more explicit about including "progress indication".
gl: see 4.1.6
<Greg> Yes, 4.1.6 should be listed in the related resources here.
<Greg> 4.1.6 add something like "(k) progress or percent complete"
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to add reference to 2.9.2 to add a reference to 4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action12]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-686 - Add reference to 2.9.2 to add a reference to 4.1.6 Expose Accessible Properties [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111130/results#xq7
<Greg> Or maybe instead of 4.1.6 it would be the "Value" discussed in 4.1.2.
<Greg> In which case we would just clarify in the Intent and Examples for 4.1.2 that a progress indicator's "Value" would be the percent complete or equivalent.
<Greg> That would be the case of MSAA but not necessarily all platform accessibility API.
<scribe> done
2.11.1 Background Image Toggle The user has the global options to hide or show background images. (Level A)
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update 2.11.1 with text above [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action13]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-687 - Update 2.11.1 with text above [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
<scribe> done
wd: why is 2111 under operable and not percervieable
proposal: The user can have placeholders rendered for time-based media content, such that the content is not played until explicit user request.
no objections
<jeanne> ACTION: jeanne to update 2.11.2 with text above (8 December minutes) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html#action14]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-688 - Update 2.11.2 with text above (8 December minutes) [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-15].
kp: drop 'for prerecorded content' implied in "playback"
no objections
gl: lots of comments
<Greg> 1. Re (a), didn't I see proposed or related wording earlier that talked about a minimum number of settings available between and including the minimum and maximum values? The wording here would allow passing with two values, 100% and 110%, as they are both between 50% and 250%. Yet we do not want to require infinitely fine gradation either.
2.11.5 Playback Rate Adjustment for Prerecorded Content:
The user can adjust the playback rate of prerecorded time-based media content, such that all of the following are true: (Level A)
The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks to between 50% and 250% of real time.
Speech whose playback rate has been adjusted by the user maintains pitch in order to limit degradation of the speech quality.
Audio and video tracks remain synchronized across this required range of playback rates.
The user agent provides a function that resets the playback rate to normal (100%).
kp: is 50% and 250% implied.
gl: needs to be more accurate
<Greg> More accurate would be something like "to values including 50% and 250%"
proposal: The user can adjust the
playback rate of the time-based media tracks to values
including 50% and 250% of real time.
... The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based
media tracks to values into a minimum of 5 steps including 50%
and 250% of real time.
<Greg> "a minimum of" could be "at least"
<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks so there are at least five steps including 50% and 250% of real time.
<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media tracks so there are at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.
<Greg> Could take out "tracks" since elsewhere we say they have to stay synchronized.
<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media so there are at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.
<Greg> Saying "tracks" implies individual per-track speed settings.
<KimPatch> The user can adjust the playback rate of the time-based media to at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.
<Greg> ("so that there" was misleading.)
<Greg> That looks good!
+1
<Greg> I can live with it, but it seems bad grammar to have the intro sentence and bullet items read "The user can adjust...such that the user can adjust..."
<Greg> 3. We may not want to get that detailed, but currently a product could pass if the user could only change the playback options for the entire duration of the recording. For example, if you could choose options for playing at speeds from 50% to 250%, but changing the speed would always restart the media at the beginning, a lot of both the mainstream and accessibility benefits would be lost.
<Greg> That is, would it be worth saying that they can make these changes without restarting the media?
restarting every speed change would be tedious, and time consuming to fix
<KimPatch> First bullet point: It can be played back at at least five speeds including 50% and 250% of real time.
<KimPatch> Third bullet point: Playback rate can be reset to normal.
wd: math lecture...with complicated formula
need to add bullet for change rate without restarting media
the user can change rate without restarting media
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Found Scribe: jallan Inferring ScribeNick: JAllan Default Present: kford, Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Wayne, Kim_Patch Present: jim kelly greg kim wayne jeanne WARNING: Replacing previous Regrets list. (Old list: Mark, Jan, Simon) Use 'Regrets+ ... ' if you meant to add people without replacing the list, such as: <dbooth> Regrets+ jan, mark, simon Regrets: jan mark simon Found Date: 08 Dec 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/08-ua-minutes.html People with action items: jeanne kim kp to[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]