<trackbot> Date: 02 December 2011

<scribe> scribe:ddahl1

actions

action-70?

<trackbot> ACTION-70 -- Chris Lilley to take the web on tv need for certification to w3m -- due 2011-11-25 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/70

debbie: Chris isn't here to update, so we can wait on that

action-71?

<trackbot> ACTION-71 -- Deborah Dahl to organise HCG discussion of media handling once group is public -- due 2012-01-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/71

action-72?

<trackbot> ACTION-72 -- Deborah Dahl to organise a discovery session after hcg is public -- due 2012-01-06 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/CoordGroup/track/actions/72

EmotionML

philippe: there are a wide range of solutions, most draconian approach is everything is in a Recommendation, more lightweight is a public wiki, there are solutions in between.
... depending on how much process you want, XPointer is an example of a lightweight process
... to register you need a pointer to a specification
... the less resources you have the more lightweight the process

marc: requirements are that we need vocabularies of emotions. ideally we would make them part of the the specification, but there is no agreement
... we wanted to give people a choice among well-defined vocabularies
... we have an XML format for describing vocabularies
... we want to group a selection of vocabularies in a central place, but people are free to point to outside vocabularies.

plh: that makes sense

marc: we want to maintain snippets of XML, because the atomic entity in our registry is the vocabulary.
... we have looked at a number of options, IANA was very tedious, not a lightweight solution.
... can we put an XML representation in a wiki?

plh: you can put pointers to the XML file

marc: we would also like to have control

plh: if the wiki is public you don't have control
... in HTML5 the wiki can have a status, that is when the WG approves or not.

marc: we've decided to take the human description and put it in a document.
... we originally tried to create a Note, but there was an objection, so we created a WD, but with no expectation that it would become a Recommendation
... we need a lightweight process for an irregularly updated item,
... but the Note is supposed to be final

see the second link in this message: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-html-cg/2011OctDec/0022.html

kaz: there are so many possible solutions and we want to find the best.

marc: which of the two seems appropriate?

plh: who will be in charge of maintaining the Note in five years?
... I would suggest going for the wiki or the XPointer registry
... should think about this for the long term

doug: should consider who is the community who is going to be suggesting changes, whether a small community or a widely diverse and unknown set of people
... if you think there are going to be 20-30 items added over the next five years, then that would point to a registry, if it's less, you probably just need a document.

marc: probably will be the latter. we just need something that can be updated if necessary.

plh: the wiki would be the most lightweight.

marc: we had a wiki in the Emotion XG, but it was totally spammed.

plh: we got better at that

doug: can make it writable only by WG or someone with a W3C account

marc: can we add an XML link to the wiki

plh: if an XML can't be uploaded we should ask why.

marc: one issue that confused us was the choice between a dated and an undated URI, in the case of a wiki it would simply be the link
... are there other repercussions? a link to a wiki can't be normative

plh: in HTML5 the wiki is normative

marc: didn't know that

plh: look at the definition of the meta-element

marc: we would move everything from the current WD to the wiki
... is it correct that we have control over who has write permission?

plh: the WG can be in charge, but think about what happens in 5 years
... you can lock the page

marc: the thing to do is to try out the wiki

kaz: there is no essential difference between a Note and a wiki, so fine to use a wiki
... the definition of the vocabulary set in the current vocabulary WD is defined by XML notation, but being referenced to using HTML fragment notation. maybe we should use XPath, not HTML

marc: we need to be able to point to a permanent XML in the wiki
... other people should be able to point to a full URI, not just an identifier
... we can't draw up the ultimate list of vocabularies, so it must always be possible to point outside of the W3C, so that's why we need a URI

debbie: is the write-restricted wiki the way to go?

marc: we need to verify that there isn't any way for it to be harmed, and that we can point to XML
... but it looks promising

plh: just try to put XML on a public wiki
... to see if that works

<plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#other-metadata-names

<plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/semantics.html#other-pragma-directives

plh: these are some examples from HTML5
... the wiki itself document the restrictions

<plh> http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#other-link-types

marc: it's reassuring that I don't have write permission.

doug: at TPAC we were talking about the sarcasm element, and we came up with two good use cases for this, e.g. accessibility, and for non-native speakers
... if there were some way to annotate tones in written speech or visual display, or have some kind of markup, but some people may not understand a tone. that would be a place where a registry might be useful.

marc: this goes in the same direction that we've been thinking.

doug: machine could be detecting emotion and outputting HTML

marc: we had a comment from the accessibility WG, but out of scope for current work

doug: definite use cases for people in different cultures

marc: do you see how we're starting to come up with a vocabulary, and it's not trivial

doug: if you had a core set of critical information that you could put into tones, that could get traction.

marc: that's on the horizon.

doug: if we had a tone attribute and it represented sarcasm, you could style it as appropriate.

kaz: in SSML 1.0 we tried to extend speech synthesis to various languages, like Chinese or Japanese. EmotionML might need some internationalization variants

<kaz> kaz: e.g., text level vs. actual intention based on the cultures and countries :)

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/who is going to be suggesting changes./who is going to be suggesting changes, whether a small community or a widely diverse and unknown set of people/
Succeeded: s/themselves/itself/
Succeeded: s/between a Note and a wiki/between a Note and a wiki, so fine to use a wiki/
Succeeded: s/the definition of the vocabulary set is defined by XML notation, so/the definition of the vocabulary set in the current vocabulary WD is defined by XML notation, but being referenced to using HTML fragment notation. /
Succeeded: s/intention/intention based on the cultures and countries/
Found Scribe: ddahl1
Inferring ScribeNick: ddahl1
Default Present: Debbie_Dahl, Marc_Schroeder, Kazuyuki, Bert, Janina, Plh, Doug_Schepers
Present: Debbie_Dahl Marc_Schroeder Kazuyuki Bert Janina Plh Doug_Schepers
Regrets: Steven_Pemberton
Found Date: 02 Dec 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/02-hcg-minutes.html
People with action items: