See also: IRC log
<trackbot> Date: 01 December 2011
<Wayne> What is the conference code?
<JAllan> code is 82941#
<scribe> scribe: Harper_Simon
<scribe> ScribeNick: sharper
KP: we were talking about modality independent interface
GL: however there are reasons to be specific about the devices for instance we talk about the keyboard because it is efficient
KP: how do you specify that
WD: do have a best practice or drag-and-drop protocol?
JA: know we've been pretty generic in the document, with just focused on the whole keyboard issue and then trying to make a device independent.
WD: I ask because we talk about consistency of user interface later on
JA: it would be nice if it was
inherent in the browser
... I know how I'd like it to work in principle
<JAllan> modality independent interface should cover keyboard and other interfaces
<Greg> Here's the email I sent proposing possible guideline about non-keyboard input devices: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2011OctDec/0077.html
JA: will show up at the call to get more information
ALL: Discussion Regarding iPhone drag-and-drop
JA: do we have discovered in our guidelines/should we have discovered in our guidelines?
<Greg> My email linked to above proposed two new SC with IER:
<Greg> 2.12 Other input devices
<Greg> 2.12.1 Support Platform Text Input Devices: If the platform supports text input using an input device, the user agent is compatible with this functionality. (Level A)
<Greg> 2.12.3 Text Input With Any Device:If an input device is supported by the platform, all user agent functionality including text input can be operated using that device. (Level AAA)
JA: Should we include these in
... any objection to including these in the document
JS: should go ahead with this but we need to look to make sure we're not contradicting ourselves
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add 188.8.131.52.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-668 - Add 184.108.40.206.3 [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
<Greg> So to summarize our answer on drag and drop, UAAG20 requires drag and drop to be doable via the keyboard or keyboard emulator per 2.1.1 (Level A) and by all other input devices per 2.12.2 (Level AA).
<JAllan> take up from http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq5
JA: likes GL's suggestion - lets
work from these two
... if we include hidden content we have to define what hidden content is
GL: I'd rather leave out hidden
... you need to define what it hidden means
<Greg> Discussing the whether "hidden" means something with an attribute that prevents it from having any visual representation, or whether it's something that has a visual representation but is currently outside the visible area of its viewport.
KP: so it can't be hidden if it is outside viewpoint because she wanted that show up in the search
<JAllan> css 'visibility: hidden'
GL: search should not find things
that have a hidden or invisible attribute
... but they should find things outside of the viewport
WD: what if text is invisible based on styling
KP: I would argue in those cases that they are not hidden and So search should find them
<JAllan> css 'display: none'
<Greg> Search should not find things that have a "hidden" or "invisible" attribute (including size of 0), but they should *generally* find things that are scrolled outside the visible area of a viewport, BUT there are a few cases where we would not want it to find those, such as the common web programming method where a large image with several buttons is repositioned so only the one button that is...
<Greg> ...supposed to be available at a time is visible.
JA: if it's in the Dom you should be able to find it, if it isn't in the Dom shouldn't
GL: Yes, WD: Yes
<Greg> The difference between my two latter examples are that in the former case there is UI that lets the user get to them, whereas in the latter case there is not, only the user agent can decide to make it available again.
JA: any objection for us to operate off of GLs recommendations, then we decide...
Non response - signifies agreement of the group
<JAllan> ACTION: jim to write definition of 'hidden content' - outside viewport, heighth width 0, same color as background [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action02]
jA: leaving up to the user agent
to decide how it will display the stuff is a great way to
... seems like we should be using Greg's first alternative for our first recommendation
<Greg> I think search should find things that are situationally hidden (e.g. having a screen presence but currently outside the visible area of the viewport or behind another window) but not thing that are marked with an attribute designed to prevent them from having any screen presence (e.g. display:none).
JA: any objections to putting this new warning as Greg wrote it
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-670 - Add the new 2.4.5 Advanced Find: The user can search with a case-sensitivity option and the ability to search all content (including alternative content, hidden content, and captions) for any sequence of characters from the document character set. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
<Greg> I don't think any software today fails to search content that has been scrolled outside the visible portion of the viewport.
<Greg> Therefore I don't think we need to explicitly mention "hidden" if we just mean things scrolled out of view.
KP: comes up with an example from Dragon
<JAllan> ACTION: jim to create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-671 - Create a test page for seachring "hidden" content and send to the list [on Jim Allan - due 2011-12-08].
<Greg> I'm concerned that a lot of people like me will (if they don't read the glossary entry) interpret "hidden" as display:none and the like.
<Greg> Therefore I recommend my second wording ("hidden content" taken out) rather than the first.
6 sets of comments
GL: assign someone to read through all those comments and come up with an answer to them
<scribe> ACTION: Wayne to take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-672 - Take a look at https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/36791/20111115/results#xq6 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08].
RESOLUTION: Action on Wayne Dick
Split even 4 ok / 4 needs work
JA: runs through the comments
<JAllan> 1.11.1 Access Relationships:
<JAllan> The user can access explicitly-defined relationships based on the user's position in content (e.g. show form control's label, show label's form control, show a cell's table headers). (Level A) :
<JAllan> jans 253 The user can view the path of nodes leading from the root to the current focussed element.
GL: is jans rewrite of 253 an appropriate rewrite?
<scribe> ACTION: Wayne on include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action06]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-673 - On include 1.11.1 and 2.5.5 in his look at 2.5.3 and Jan's comment on 2.5.3 [on Wayne Dick - due 2011-12-08].
RESOLUTION: See action above
6 OKs and 2 more discussions
JA: reviews comments
... I think I agree with Markku, at least a AA
GL: our differentiate structured
navigation and outline view, where structured navigation are
commands to move from heading to heading. many offer a
hierarchical outline view, not many offer a structured
... in this case I think such navigation should have a higher priority
<Greg> Correct summary, but specifically I'm referring to "navigable" outline view.
JA: remove independently and make a AA?
<JAllan> proposed: The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA
JA: need to find a navigational
thing in the intent
... lets leaving together as opposed to come up with two separate SCs
<Greg> The rationales for separating them are (a) could potentially allow different priority levels, and (b) could potentially allow configuring of NON-INTERACTIVE outline views to be in the Perceivable principle rather than the Operable principle.
GL: I just wanted to point this out but I'm not opposing combining them
JA: any objections?
<scribe> ACTION: on [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action07]
<trackbot> Sorry, bad ACTION syntax
<scribe> ACTION: jeanne to change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action08]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-674 - Change 2.5.7 to The user can configure the sets of important elements (including element types) for structured navigation and hierarchical/outline view. AA [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2011-12-08].
RESOLUTION: via Action 674
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/keyboard/keyboard or keyboard emulator/ Succeeded: s/Topic/topic/ Succeeded: s/to/two/ Found Scribe: Harper_Simon Found ScribeNick: sharper Default Present: Jim_Allan, Jeanne, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, sharper, Wayne Present: Jim_Allan Jeanne Greg_Lowney Kim_Patch sharper Wayne Regrets: Jan Kelly Mark Found Date: 01 Dec 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html WARNING: No person found for ACTION item: on [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/12/01-ua-minutes.html#action07] People with action items: jeanne jim wayne WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]