<PDM> greets!

<sandro> right, Zakim, it's still more than 2 hours away

<PhilA2> morning Sandro

<sandro> 'morning, Phil. How are things?

<sandro> grrr. the conference code is egovIG not egov.

<PhilA> trying to chat

<PhilA> ohm that worked

<sandro> PhilA, there's a speakerphone there and you'll be dialing in?

<sandro> (or having Zakim dial out)

<HadleyBeeman> Sandro, PhillA is dialing in now

<sandro> great. :)

<HadleyBeeman> (And good morning, by the way!)

<sandro> Good morning, Hadley :)

<sandro> Are y'all in your best halloween costumes?

<HadleyBeeman> I was told to dress up as a Brit who doesn't do Halloween costumes :)

<davemc> yes, I'm pretending to be an Adobe employee

<sandro> And I bet you did a good job.

<HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_ was kind enough to bring is all candy though. It does feel festive.

<davemc> yep on the candy. Heath bars, the second most addictive candy in the world

<gdick> Dressed up as a snow shoveler, Sandro ?

<sandro> :-) gdick only a few inches here.

<Jeanne_> I'll have to send candy bars to everyone who's on virtually--happy halloween!

<olyerickson> I'm on....

<olyerickson> Good Afternoon @bhyland

<PDM> good people, can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day?

<sandro> PDM, all day. http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4

<PDM> ok rephraseL zakim, can you tell how long this session should last? is it a couple o hrs or all day?

<PhilA> Topic Intros

Intros

<PDM> thanks s

<bhyland> @PDM, is goes from 9:00 AM US PST until 17:00

<sandro> for the minutes, PDM, what's your name?

<PDM> Paola Di Maio

<sandro> right, of course, PDM :-)

<PDM> I will be around an hour or so

<PhilA> Scribe duties

<bhyland> Sandro, Audio has some feedback / static. Could that be due to where the speakers are physically located. I can hear Phil, Jeanne OK

<bhyland> But there is static when they speak.

<sandro> bhyland, Yeah .. I expect it's the just the hotel air handlers, but we can ask them to try to adjust things.

<PhilA> General conversation about how eGovIG came about

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: gives her elevator/how I explain it to my mum and dad pitch

<PhilA> davemc: tries to think who was in the egov mark I

<PhilA> Jeanne: begins the meeting

<PhilA> scribe: PhilA

JH: WE have 2 days with a loosely structured agenda
... I get the sense of what a lot of people want to happen in these 2 days
... sharing and community building is important
... the World bank and Warsaw event are important
... code is important
... licences are important
... we're not a standards body. Good that bhyland is here as GLD WG co-chair
... we can be advocates for that we believe in
... someone said they really wanted to have projects based on this group

<PDM> she is speaking very fast

<PDM> Jeanne, a bit louder and a touch slower if possible for remote :=_

<PDM> thanks

JH: it makes sense to work together in projects
... so I'll reiterate topics for the week - see wiki http://www.w3.org/egov/wiki/F2F4
... has arrived with Lego bricks and hallowe'en treats
... tour de table
... who are you. why are you here? what can you contribute? What's the biggest challenge you face

HadleyBeeman: I'm here as an IE. Open data lead at technology Strategy Board in the UK
... here to avoid having working everything out for ourselves

<sandro> bhyland, so far IRC suggests its like this: http://www.w3.org/egov/IG/meeting/2011-10-31

HadleyBeeman: career has covered lots of the subjects on the agenda
... interested in the non-tech messaging, connecting citizens, govt etc.

Jeanne_: I'm evangelist for open data at data.gov. Prof at UCLA etc.
... excited about building the community

<HadleyBeeman> Bhyland, there are 8 of us in the room

Jeanne_: hoping to bring experiences of good and bad ideas

davemc: I'm Dave McAllister from Adobe
... was part of the original eGov IG
... we ended up with statememts of what the issues
... want to bring an understanding of the open communities. Licenses, IPR, make sure we explore the right avenue. Want to make sure that data has context and owndership and they're as important as the right to use the data

<Jeanne_> Dave McAllister is part of "open communities" and the open source.

<sandro> name of current speaker?

jkiss: from the NZ govt. Dept of internal affairs

<Jeanne_> Jason Kiss is speaking

jkiss: is Jason Kiss

<bhyland> Current speaker is very hard to hear … far from mic??

Mark Crawford: from SAP here as an observer. Have persoanl interest

<davemc> hes far from mic

Mark Crawford has done a lot of work in this area

Yosuke Funahashi is on committe of japanese Govt

working on Web/TV devices and how they can deliver eGov

for example following events like the Tsunami

scribe: recently govt. set extra budget how to restructure Japanese local govt. systems using eGov tech

<Jeanne_> Phil Archer is speaking

<olyerickson> PhilA is "not Sandro..."

<Jeanne_> Phil is here in place of Sandro, who has been ill. Works on eGov issues and will share today

<olyerickson> ... member of team

<Jeanne_> Phil needs to be nice to Jason (pass him a candy bar)

<olyerickson> ... support Jeanne

<olyerickson> ... be face ofw3c

<olyerickson> ... duties: being v.v.nice to Jason

<Jeanne_> He's the face of the W3C

<somnath> I am somnath working with Govt of India Can share Govt of India Experience on E-Gov

somnath: You wanted to talk?

<somnath> yes pl

<Jeanne_> Hang on somnath, to you in a moment

olyerickson: I'm John Ericson.Done lost of project management related to linking govbt data

<sandro> somnath, are you only on IRC, or are you on the phone, too?

related to our LOGD portal, int giovt search application (has 500K+ data sets on it) plus other things we've done

olyerickson: Also in the GLD WG with George T and bhyland
... go back to digital rights management from mid 90s

<somnath> on irc only

olyerickson: persistent interest in Web infratsture supporting rights in differnet perspectives
... wants to attach provenance data
... how do we improve the infrastructure to do participator government

Somnath NOW

<Jeanne_> Somnath--did you have a question?

<somnath> Not right now but can share Govt of India E-Gov roll out experience and its challenges

<Jeanne_> Perfect! Hadley will be leading that session!

sandro: Hi

I'm normally the Team Contact but not able to travel

sandro: interests and background in linked data, done it for years. In GLD where I'm Team Contact too

<PDM> can you hear me

PDM: Hi I'm Paola di Milo

No

<PDM> muted

we can't hear you

I just guessed that what you;d say

PDM: I'm in the UK. I know a few of you
... interested in systems, social systems
... been looking at infrastructure
... just come back from conf. in Germany launching a new institute in this area

<HadleyBeeman> My apologies, PDM— which org are you working with?

bhyland: Hi, I'm Bernadette Hyland. Have been working in linked data since about 2007 with LoC
... work with gov primnting office
... docs created by Congress go to 1200 libraries around the country and so on.
... currently work with US EPA

<PDM> HadleyL I am with university of strathclyde for another couple of months til my contract finishes, but work freelance and have started own independent research institution ISTCS.org

<bhyland> www.w3.org/2011/gld/charter

bhyland: work with George Thomas on the GLD WG

<HadleyBeeman> PDM Brilliant, thanks! :) I'm sorry we haven't run into each other in the UK.

bhyland: we have a 2 year charter. 39 members. >50% are non-US

<PDM> Hadley: I think we may have met briefly at OpenGov Camp in London 2010, I remember your voice

bhyland: Just back from Warsaw. Sorry I can't be in Santa Clara

<HadleyBeeman> Oh good, PDM. I'm sorry I didn't attach my memory of your face to your voice. :)

Kevin: I'm Kevin, in Chicago. Virtual world provider. I follow data.gov and support the work very much

somnath - can you introduce yourself?

<Jeanne_> Somnath, can you introduce yourself?

<Jeanne_> Kevin provides and works with 3D immersive virtual worlds (like Second Life, but many others)

<Jeanne_> He provides training and other scenarios

Jeanne_: Topic: how the meeting is going to work
... I want to capture people's ideas as they come in.

Gha! Shut my browser by mistake

<dmcallis> +1 on "what do we want to do?"

<olyerickson> Jeanne: Want to allow for braiinstorming, want to discuss things we want to do

Jeanne_: I want to do a couple of things in the room and then try and recreate those on the phone

<olyerickson> ... write down thoughts on blue-colored cards

Jeanne_: If you're on the phone/IRC - can you please use the IRC to post notes to the meeting

<bhyland> How about BLUE CARD:

<HadleyBeeman> Jeanne_: Especially where those thoughts are tangential or off-topic (to not disrupt the conversation), put them on the wall to be collected later.

Jeanne_: use all caps "CARD" and then write your idea
... as in CARD: I'd like to talk about...

<bhyland> Does Jeanne plan to use different color cards? Or just blue?

PhilA: I have a yellow card
... and I can see pink ones too

<bhyland> got it.

<bhyland> CARD it is.

PhilA: My slides are at http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/TPAC/phila/intro.html#(1)

http://philarcher.org/diary/2011/20yearsofmlarchives/

<bhyland> That is great Phil - cool.

Jeanne_: This group was chartered first in 2008

dmcallis: when this group first formed, it was to identify how the Web can be used to make the work of govts more tranbsparent
... how to we get govts to do this and how do we get citizens to respond
... had a very active group
... Linked deata was identified as being very important
... there was a doc in June 2009 ? that talked about what needed to be done
... originally talked about documents, social media, AV approaches

<olyerickson> Original W3G eGov charter (2009-2010) here: http://www.w3.org/2009/06/eGov/ig-charter

Jeanne_: you tried to avoid figuring out the one perfect solution...

dmcallis: I do work for Adobe ,-) the first set of docs said "we need docs to be able to be repurposed like PDF" - I had to take that out!
... there were other things, like DRM etc
... huge issues around suing RDF, Dublin Core
... need to be careful not to condemn a technology

HadleyBeeman: we have a lot of trouble in UK with govt data published as Jpegs

dmcallis: most of the problems 3200-1 and 2 owns PDF, not Adobe
... we should use the most appropriate tech
... that was a big part of the first round. people saying "you should never use..."

olyerickson: I can only imagine the anguish you went through
... how do we avoid boiling the ocean. Focussing on the problems - not imagine problems that are projections of how technologies can be used
... current existence of the GLD WG is an example of your success. What else can we do

<bhyland> Clarification re: PDF - "PDF is an international standard, PDF 1.7 (ISO 32000-1)"

dmcallis: the charter 1 - charter 2 cycle, we identified that we need to look at how we represent, say, a speech - but that's not fair a representation
... social media now use soc media as a principal comm method
... within this body, we represent what we think the citizens can best use
... does the average person care that they can link real estate records to weather records. Some people do of course, but most don't and how do we connect those two?
... LD became important because it's how you expose data. Risk is that it goes too far, i..e. takes commnets out of context
... one of my topics is how what we do can represent the communities the gov is trying to reach

sandro: I didn't join until the point at which the 2nd charter was being worked ojn

<dmcallis> the original doc is http://www.w3.org/TR/egov-improving/

Jeanne_: This group was re-chartered in June of this year. After the beginings of the GLD WG
... that's going really fast and making progress
... a lot of the conversations that we were having in the IG became non-conversations as the GLD WG was taking it on
... therefore our group can work without singling out a tech or a solution
... we had a variety of open discussions
... we can make statements about things
... we can partner with WGs if needs be
... we want to move beyond the technologies. We have technologists, elected people, practictioners, academics
... and we have folk from otehr standards bodies

Kevin: we have just recently had our Project Stargate
... a trans communication between virutal worlds

<scribe> ... new standards for networking and ??

UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: for linking identities - we have new ways of doing that. Demos available from IEEE at Kevin

<dmcallis> I recall a project stargate from US gov on psychic phenom

<Jeanne_> That's Kevin Simkins talking with IEEE standards on virtual worlds

olyerickson: I'll provoke the soc media piece this afternoon

HadleyBeeman: I'll scribe that then

olyerickson: It would be great of Kevin could lead that but, by remote, can you be here?

<Jeanne_> CARD: Be sure to look broadly at social media in the discussion later today

<HadleyBeeman> CARD: can we discuss licensing in the social media discussion too? We have groups in UK gov who default to "All rights reserved" (erroneously) when publishing content on social networks.

Jeanne_: we have the folk that turn up to our meetings, we have the mailing list and we have the linkedin Group
... I'm approving 20 people a week

<Jeanne_> CARD: Collect the resources of everyone's social media network

W3C linkedIn group is at http://www.linkedin.com/groups?gid=1800648&trk=myg_ugrp_ovr

Jeanne_: we all have some sort of social media presence eithger personally or professionally (or both)
... we should use that to reach new people
... Want to come out of these 2 days with a set of actions.
... want to be able to use our wiki etc
... aggressively

dmcallis: +1

Jeanne_: Let's go to the phone

<bhyland> No comments from me

<olyerickson> "here here, here..."

Jeanne_: do you have any thoughts on the previous group, interaction with W3C, currente intent and charter?

<olyerickson> -1 to hmmming to vote

bhyland? PDM?

<bhyland> Nothing more to add.

<dmcallis> I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required

<olyerickson> Could "+1.847.699.aabb" please identify?

<Jeanne_> CARD: Dave McAllister: I would like to see a discussion towards the end on what other sub groups are required

<PDM> sorry was that a q

<bhyland> I had input into the eGov IG & GLD WG charters :-)

<PDM> nothing to add, thanks

Accessibility and social media switching around.

so we'll so accessibility this afternoon and soc media tomorrow morning

<olyerickson> +1 to break

<dmcallis> +1 break

Jeanne_: Break until 10:45

<PDM> thank you scribe

<PDM> gave a nice break you lucky people in California, catcha later

Coffee Break

<sandro> PDM, on irc it's usually "/msg sandro this is private to sandro" but it depends on your IRC client.

<scribe> scribe: HadleyBeeman

<Jeanne_> Shall we reconvene?

<PhilA> Web client is available through http://irc.w3.org/

Olyerickson: Web client for IRC is often available when other clients can't get through the right ports

Reports from the Open Government Data Camp (OGDCamp)

<Jeanne_> Open Knowledge Foundation: http://vimeo.com/21711338

<Jeanne_> European Commissioner VP Kroes: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=gBUpUD4l1Wo

Jeanne_: Introducing the event, two weeks ago in Warsaw. Keynotes from the Open Knowledge Foundation and the Nellie Kroes, European Commissioner for Digital

… Our conversation: the strategic directions for government open data that we know about, and share those. (Later session will be on specific implementations)

… In the US, there is a focus on benefits of open data. Past examples (GPS, weather data), current examples we can infer (health), and future possibilities. Innovation leads to economic growth and jobs.

… Also, it promotes transparency. Makes the Freedom of Information process less complicated, and required less.

<olyerickson> Q: How do "FOI" policies/practices vary in regions outside USA?

… There is a lot of technology that falls from those directions. Open linked data, API catalogues, ability to aggregate data and cross-correlate it (esp from different agencies).

Olyerickson: give me a min- the EC have just published a review of it in 80 countries

<Jeanne_> Hadley: From the UK, our open data is underpinned by three main objectives:

<Jeanne_> 1) relationship between citizen and government

<Jeanne_> 2) better use of government resources and data and cost efficiencies

<Jeanne_> 3) potential for innovation and efficiencies in the public sector

<Jeanne_> Allows goverrnment to be a more efficient user and provider of data

<Jeanne_> Phil Archer: We had a recent switch of government

<Jeanne_> and open data survived

<olyerickson> [fyi] Wikipedia summary of "FOI" policies for 85+ countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_information_legislation

<Jeanne_> We have a now right wing government and now they are promoting not just economics but transparency as well

<Jeanne_> Thanks John

<Jeanne_> So the question is what happens when data is leaked vs. made open?

Davemc: there is a fine line between publishing and leaking data.

<olyerickson> [fyi] RE EU FOI summaries, see also http://www.statewatch.org/foi/foi.htm

Davemc: provenance of leaked data is also of question

The world's FOIs at a glance : http://epsiplatform.eu/content/worlds-foias-glance

Olyerickson: Q: when data.gov.uk first went online, it was data-consumer driven. Process by which users could request data (less formally that FOIA requests). Provided guidance for data managers.

… how has that played out over the last 18 months?

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: FOI is still a big part of open data.

<PhilA> ... scalability is an issue, the data.gov.uk is a very small team

<PhilA> ... a big problem is a vocabulary mismatch

<PhilA> ... e.g. Commissioning data in the NHS. You may not know that magic term

<PhilA> ... so my team (linkedgov) is working to make those bridges

<PhilA> ... translating gov speak into natural language

<PhilA> ... we;re facing a huge challenge of having a huge possible data pool and limited funds

<PhilA> ... people don't know what's possible

<PhilA> ... don't know what question to ask

<Jeanne_> CARD: Several people have asked for the collection of use cases (stories, benefits, outcomes) around open data

Jeanne_: for those on the phone/IRC, any thoughts from your own governments or experiences?

<PDM> well, it would help if the data was structured /modelled properly before being encoded/linked

Bhyland: In the USA, we're fortunate to have executive levels of support for open data. There are a number of senior managers in gov who want to see this work.

<PDM> its the data structures that make the data unusable/expensive

… In terms of empowering the people who are data curators and stewards: we have work left to do. Can't all be done by the W3C

… We can learn from other governments who are scoping budgets and concrete deliverables. It can be difficult to do with only once-a-month calls.

… Am I isolated in that observation, or have others found it as well?

Jeanne_: observers are encouraged to participate

<PDM> have seen two issues with gov data: completely missing, data (the law does not seem to specify what record should be kept, so its discretionary, and bodies are finding ways around saying 'we do nto store thsi info' when its not convenient

PhilA: Frequency of meeting is difficult; we get more momentum when we're face-to-face, and it can die down between meetings.

Jeanne_: Yes, we want to leave this meeting with clear actions to drive a change in our behaviour.

<PDM> the other issue is datasets which are not well formed/categorized, so that searching is a highly specialised task that required expensive skills

<PDM> sorry I am not on the phone but I can get o the phone if that helps

<olyerickson> +1 PDM; it goes even further w.r.t. proposed changes to e.g. US FOI policies that might enable administration to claim requested data doesn't exist when indeed it does

… We may decide to meet at a different frequency; we should follow what the group wants/needs.

<PDM> yes olyerickson I have heard

Bhyland: Specifically, do any others find strong leadership support, but a vacuum between the people who curate the data (budget, existing ways of working) etc?

<Jeanne_> Hadley: We've found something similar in the UK

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: As you've identified Bernadette, it's a new way of working

<Jeanne_> Hadley: It's a new way of working and a new relationship outside of your organization

<gdick> me/ odd aside. In US, Census Regs refer to Citizens, FOIA to Persons

<PhilA> ... most data teams are being told "you must publish this stuff" and the team is already overloaded

<PhilA> ... the team doesn't see any feedback

<Jeanne_> Hadley: It's hard on top of an already committed organization and it's just one more responsibility

<PDM> so the priority imho is: work with governments to develop adopt best practice, what works best (cost effectiveness is: mandate with legislation for public authoritities to proactively publish datasets which have been standardized that is make compliant with privacy law, then encoded

<PhilA> ... it's just one more thing to do

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: so we're trying to build a tool that makes it easy for the publishers to see the benefit of what they're doing

<olyerickson> @PDM I think part of this should be brought up during Evangelism/Education discussion tomorrow

Bhyland: Agreed, this won't take off until people are getting something back from it (in government)
... Within an agency/authority, I think about how this will help them being more efficient. Most of them have trouble getting info from within their own organisation.

<PDM> you do that Olyer please, I may not be around, may post a quick note to list for you to refer to

Bhyland: Ex: most people get info about their own org from the external website, not internal resources.

<PDM> bhyland: true

Bhyland: How do we make this not just another thing on an already overburdened civil servant's plate?
... It would be great if this group could make progress on that.

<davemc> It seems like we talking about the "marketing" of acceptance.

Olyerickson: PDM and I have been talking about this with regard to evangelism and education (tabled for tomorrow).

<davemc> we should consider the gamification studies on this, e.g SAPS (Status Achievement, Power, Stuff)

… Much of this have been public/private/academic partnerships. Contact that we (RPI) have had with other govs has been around "Help us! We see what's happening in the UK — prime minister's office, Talis, University of Southampton… We see in the US 3 Round Stones, White House, RPI, etc… Help us figure this out. We recognise it's not just us, but we don't have the knowledge/experience/connections."

<Jeanne_> I like the idea of building a government e-ecosystem

… It's about building the ecosystem.

<bhyland> John: Gov't/private partnerships is where we see progress. Building the eco-system is what we need to do better. You have to go as a professsional developer/data wrangler, academic, policy people and cross pollinate.

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: One of the 1st things I did at Linked Gov was to build a map of the people involved

<PhilA> ... wanted to show what people got out which, we hope, is more than they put in

<PhilA> ... challenge is to show that their job will be easier if they publish the data

Jeanne_ it's hard to get people motivated when budget cuts are so dramatic. Now, collection is even in jeopardy.

<olyerickson> +1 to "map of people involved"; I think this is partly the objective of the Community Directory

Davemc: Summary of the points here: we are trying to work with 2 distinct constituencies: people who collect the data,

…and people who use the data. If we try to lump them together, then we will fail. If we say "the government should do <blah>," it won't work.

<olyerickson> No single formula; better, "templates for success"

Jeanne_: Multiple audiences here. Government is its own audience, and then there are externals as well.

… What has been enchanting is going to an agency and saying "You opened your data, had a hackathon, and have three new apps on it. That's cool. And it has real-world relevance"

Bhyland: +1 to davemc's comment segmenting the constituencies here.

… to Jeanne_, appreciate the point that it's hard to motivate people (who may be concerned about being furloughed).

… which creates an ethos of inaction

… There are many approaches which can help. We show people their data as linked data, show them an application that mimics an architecture that costs $10m+ but is available for 10% of the cost

… It's a tough time to be selling a new way of doing something, but there are still people who want to make a difference. Unless they get support for their managers though, and public exposure at conferences, then we're going to have a problem.

PhilA: +1 to the comment re showing about showing people being asked to do the extra work that the benefit is to them as individuals.

<davemc> CARD : Should we have a task force on the business cases?

… Personally, I get hacked off with constant competitions… It exploits developers. At some point, we will need to pay developers to build really good tools.

<bhyland> +1 PhilA, I completely agree. Hackathons are great for some notariety and for the agency / company sponsoring them … but they are 1 of about 20 different tools in the "tool kit" yet they are treated as the *only* tool at time.

<PDM> sorry havent learned how to get in the speaker q, do I just type q+

<PDM> let me try

<olyerickson> @PDM yes

<davemc> yes, type q then plus

Jeanne_: A lot of government apps tend to look alike. Ex: our Health 2.0 initiative (non-gov entity), they use the challenge as a proving ground to find partners to work with for a long time.

<PDM> how do I know when its my turn? is that when the handle turns red?

<davemc> Again, there are lessons that we could tap, "status" "open source" development. While we do need to professionalize interfaces, we also do need to allow this to grow organically

Jeanne_: How do we strike a balance between bringing in new ideas and innovations against the concerns around exploiting developers?

<PDM> thanks bhyland, so basically now that I am in the queue, I can say what I got to say and it will be on record right?

Olyerickson: 24hr programming contests force a certain kind of visualisation or mash-up into existence that one may not have thought of before. Also, emphasises the fact that creating apps can be like blogging. Short amount of time, low overhead.

<davemc> It's the continuation of these mash ups that need to be considered.

Olyerickson: We've seen it with Ushahidi (from earthquake in Haiti), among others. We need to put a spotlight on these mechanisms. These hackathons have a role.
... forces the developer community to learn new things in a hurry as well

<bhyland> s/Paolo/Paola

Paola, did you have a comment?

s/Paolo/Paola

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: I'm finding a community around Rewired State http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=rewired%2Bstate&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCkQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Frewiredstate.org%2F&ei=vOquTqaVOKGQiALCopTzCg&usg=AFQjCNGdDKABcYAbUjEwMe4SEUoKJGlkhw

<PhilA> I meant http://rewiredstate.org/

HadleyBeeman: we've had trouble with developers feeling burnt out, and focusing on accountability stuff or visualisations. Harder to motivate them to build products and businesses (they've developed habits)

Davemc: apps don't continue past the event. We need to find ways for them to become self-sustaining.

<bhyland> Davemc: Hackathons are great. But how do we make them self-sustaining? How do we keep up the momentum?

<olyerickson> +1 *great* point about sustainability of hackathon artifacts/learninga/outcomes

Davemc: a sub-task-force task: why should a company choose to do this? Why should a company choose to do this? We're missing the ongoing implementation.

<bhyland> +1 Davemc

Jeanne_: NASA have done a lot of challenges. Just had a Green Flight challenge (fuel efficient plane) for $1.3m prize. winner: moved 200 miles for 0.5 gallons of gas per person.

<davemc> green flight == "pedal faster"

Jeanne_: NASA's international space apps challenge is coming. Now: a call for what kind of data people would want to use.

<bhyland> The issue of how to do sustainable "Envisioning" (not my word) that is based on open data + action of producing useful application + keeping up momentum to fund actual deployment + announcement.

Jeanne_: NASA doesn't run their events. Partnered with Google and Microsoft for Random Hacks of Kindness. Helps with the sustainability.

<olyerickson> [fyi] Obama's Open Data Initiative statement (Sep 2011) http://www.whitehouse.gov/blog/2011/09/22/open-government-action-plan-innovators

<bhyland> CARD: How to make open data + apps sustainable. How can we provide guidance that is peer-reviewed and properly advertised on the Web, possibly even coming from some standards body or hub site?

Jeanne_: We only have a challenge around a specific opportunity or mission challenge that we don't know how to solve. Ex: descent of a vehicle onto Mars.

<PDM> sorry was away for a minute, will make a comment on the list

Olyerickson: Interesting: it combines open innovation, pinned to workflow process within NASA.

Jeanne_: We've taken the health community on Data.gov a different way. Last year: any good idea is a great idea, this year: need a business model to progress.
... This year we had 50 apps progress. Amazing for the community.
... they were assessed by a panel of industry people. Those companies do it because it's in their interest (economic gain)

<olyerickson> +1 to raising the bar on "good idea" including (sustainable) business model, not simply coolness

bhyland: we should communicate these successes more, promote them.

<PhilA> +1 to what olyerickson was saying +1 to

<olyerickson> +1.703.992.aacc please identify

bhyland: we (W3C) sometimes overegg things, talk about them before they're ready.

<Jeanne_> Event is the Health Data Initiative: http://www.iom.edu/Activities/PublicHealth/HealthData/2011-JUN-09.aspx

bhyland: these projects must be production ready (servers can't fall over due to demand, for example)

<PDM> overegg _lol never heard that expression before,

davemc: How do you recognise the people who have done this work? Like Linux in 1995 paid for in figo dollars. Sustain that status.

+q

<bhyland> Davemc: People are wired for status. How do we recognize individuals & make it worth their time?

<bhyland> +1 Davemc

Hadleybeeman: it's wrapped in with making this is the self-interest of the publishers and developers involved.

davemc: Another barometer: how many of these apps ever reach a version 2? That says a lot.

olyerickson: Developers sharing message: If we do things in a transparent way, other developers can jump into the ecosystem and participate. We see this happening with government data: the Guardian's data blog (may be the NY Times?) is good at communicating the methods behind visualisations.
... We need to push back: have developers/journalists/visualisers provide provenance and sources for their data.

olyerickson this helps encourage others to use the data, go to the source.

bhyland: +1. If we don't put together best practices on this, this could backfire.

<Jeanne_> Winners of the Health Data Initiative: http://www.health2challenge.org/winners/

<PhilA> An example of data visualisation with link to the source would be http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/oct/28/mortality-statistics-causes-death-england-wales-2010

<bhyland> CARD: What can be done to associated basic provenance info, even an authority & URL of source, of data in a mashup. John Erickson gave an example that he had to email some developers to find out where they pulled data from; Bernadette gave examples of mashups where data was just incorrect and there was no way to reach back to the developer and cite correct data.

PhilA: This group might want to promote within W3C: a project I'm working on proposing for funding. That would make it easy for us to set up a working group that would set up a standardised API for correction.

<davemc> CARD: develop the persona of constituents

<Jeanne_> CARD: Should we consider helping to inform a standard API(s) that could be included to show how to correct the data? (via Phil)

PhilA: Here's how you include in your web page or app "here's how you correct this data"

bhyland: Input for the Provenance WG?

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: It would be useful if we could build a process around correcting data

<PhilA> ... there's noone in charge

<PhilA> ... there's no process for fixing it, never mind technologies

<bhyland> proposed URL: http://isanyoneincharge.gov

<PhilA> ... so there's stuff we could do there

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: answering Jeanne_ we can normally find who has published the data (as we're part of government) and when we contact them about data errors we get a wide range of responses

<olyerickson> Guardian example http://bit.ly/sJgArg is excellent w.r.t. data sources; better to also include e.g. dataviz toolkits (d3.js, etc?)

Jeanne_: we're trying to open each of those aspects to transparency. 1st: how many datasets each agency is publishing. 2nd: establish/streamline process for requesting new data and responding to the requester.
... this builds accountability. We can't do it all at once, because the agencies may push back. They're what they can with their scarce resources.

olyerickson: Assertions can be made about the data by third parties.

<davemc> +1 to Hadley

olyerickson: GLD working group: working on best practices for consuming data, provenance assertions. What do we do with crowdsourced assertions about existing data?

<Jeanne_> Welcome Brian!

<bhyland> Olyerickson: discussed assertions on provenance of published data. At RPI, they are collecting data from 90 (?) governments worldwide and looking at how to make assertions about quality.

<Jeanne_> Dave: Reputation and trust are important to any data source

<bdhandspicker> Going mute and stepping away from the computer...audio only for next hour... then fully engaged.

<olyerickson> DaveMc sums my comments up in three words: "reputation and trust" ;)

Davemc: what's the reputation of data after it's gone through a game of Telephone?

<bhyland> Davemc: Discussed reputation & authority of published data.

olyerickson: in the USA, we still don't have a precise mechanism for feeding back on data.

<davemc> CARD: sub force on reputation and trust

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: Communication beyond provenance...

<PhilA> ... Some data someone was using didn't mind if it was off by 15%, other people may care more

<PhilA> ... context matters

<PhilA> Other thoughts on John's thoughts.

<davemc> +1 to PhilA on context

<PhilA> HadleyBeeman: we've had big shifts in thoughts as social media has blown away the careful publication process with its checks and balances

<PhilA> davemc: It's reputation and trust

<PhilA> ... there's a difference between publishing any old thing and checked data

bhyland: certain datasets are unique and authoritative. The only source of this data. It may have errors, but it is the authority on that data.
... there is an authority-down guidance (GLD WG recommendation). Bottom-up (input from the citizen/commercial company) would be interesting — we could have a reputation analyser.

<olyerickson> @bhyland your audio is quite soft...

bhyland: GLD WG is pragmatic, US participants may feel a bit behind other nations. We're trying to focus on specific recommendations… do a lot with a little.

<olyerickson> +1 to "doing a lot with a little"

<davemc> reputation is something that ebay handles well... most others follow some mechanism based on that model, even if they don't say so

+1 to getting into/on with it, not stuck trying to make a mathematician happy.

<davemc> forget the math guys. make the statisticians hapy!

bhandspicker: I'm here (audio only)

olyerickson +1 to bhyland

olyerickson: on schema.org: motivation was not to recreate the hard work of esablished standards bodies, but to create something that was simple and easy to use

<davemc> "no one expects the Schema Inquisition"

<bhyland> The Semantic Link Podcast that John is referring to with RV Guha from Google is good & worthwhile listening to, check out http://semanticweb.com/the-semantic-link-%E2%80%93-episode-11-october-2011_b23961

<bhyland> RV Guha is now chairing the independent effort to define schema.org

PhilA: Recently invited to speak at something: "you're W3C, come tell us what's wrong with schema.org." My response: "Nothing. It's not W3C, but it's fine for what it is. Choose the tool that's right for you."

Jeanne_ (summing up this session): We've been trying to coordinate among groups from different organisations. Next session: there are 3 big events this month (OGDCamp, World Bank event, and this)… How can we progress before the next time we're face-to-face?

<bhyland> To Phil's point, schema.org is an approach to providing simplified guidance on highly useful vocabularies for webmasters who are marking up content. W3C has been very helpful in getting schema.org discussions to happen more transparently in the public on a W3C public mailing list, even though it is not a W3C initiative.

Jeanne_: If we want to do these things (deliverables/projects), what partnerships do we need to form to make this happen?

<PhilA> Also worth noting that schema.org uses a W3C rec track standard, microdata, which is part of HTML5

<bhyland> right Phil, true. Thanks.

<PhilA> meeting adjourned for lunch.

<PhilA> Reconvene at 14:00 PDT

Adjourn for lunch

<sandro> HadleyBeeman, PhilA I suggest doing minutes continuously

cheers, sandro

<PhilA> rrsagentm draft minutes

<PhilA> rrsagent. draft minutes

<kevinsimkins> Enjoy your lunsh. So long for now..

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/:/,/
Succeeded: s/zaim/zakim/
FAILED: s/Paolo/Paola/
FAILED: s/Paolo/Paola/
Found Scribe: PhilA
Inferring ScribeNick: PhilA
Found Scribe: HadleyBeeman
Inferring ScribeNick: HadleyBeeman
Scribes: PhilA, HadleyBeeman
ScribeNicks: PhilA, HadleyBeeman
Present: Jeff Jaffe Kevin Simkins
Got date from IRC log name: 31 Oct 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/10/31-egov-minutes.html
People with action items: