<trackbot> Date: 22 September 2011

<scribe> Scribenick: vhardy

ed: Topic: pre-TPAC meeting
... are we settled to have an SVG WG meeting Oct 27/28.
... I do not think we have a location yet.
... I do not think that anybody took an action to host the meeting.

cl: I think vh had an action.

vhardy: I do not recall that, but I could look into it.

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0143.html

ed: Patrick said he could host at Microsoft.

<scribe> ACTION: ed to confirm with Patrick Dengler that he can host the Oct. 27/28 meeting in Santa Clara (or close by) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3114 - Confirm with Patrick Dengler that he can host the Oct. 27/28 meeting in Santa Clara (or close by) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-09-29].

<ed> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0147.html

ed: Doug sent a reminder to everybody to register for the TPAC.
... we are meeting on Thursday/Friday.

cl: CSS WG is meeting on Sunday.

ed: vhardy asked if we should have an FX meeting during TPAC.

cl: they are meeting Sunday/Monday/Tuesday.

ed: we usually schedule a half day.
... do we want to have an FX meeting as one of the SVG WG days?

cl: we could do the meeting during the SVG group meeting days.

<scribe> ACTION: ed to coordinate with the CSS WG chairs on joint FX meeting during TPAC. Agree on meeting date/time. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3115 - Coordinate with the CSS WG chairs on joint FX meeting during TPAC. Agree on meeting date/time. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-09-29].

SVG2 Planning.

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Planning_Page

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions

ed: I will try to work on the use cases and requirements document next week, first working on the wiki, then on a document.
... heycam is away. I am not sure if he will be able to help when he comes back.

cl: last week, at the typography conference, people were interested in SVG for glyph definitions. I have good examples of what people want. There was interest from Adobe and Microsoft during the conference.

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to document typographic requirements for SVG gathered during the recent typography conference he attended. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action03]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3116 - Document typographic requirements for SVG gathered during the recent typography conference he attended. [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

ed: I have see there is a bit more emails on the mailing list, request for new features. Has anybody adding this to the requirements page.

cl: there was a comment about device RGB on the mailing list. Did I miss a discussion on that?
... I do not want to head backwards. It is not going to help us long term.

ed: no, I do no think you missed a conversation.

cl: there was also feedback from Rik.

vhardy: I think Rik will have a more crystalized position for Adobe by TPAC.

ed: there was also a requirement for stroke position (inside, outside path).

cl: I thought it was above or below fill. The inside/outside is a little harder to implement. But it is a good one to have.

vhardy: I think it is a great requirement (both above/below and inside/outside).

cl: implementations may be able to do it in different ways. Would be good to have.

ed: anybody could go over the recent email and make sure that we have all the input on the wiki page?

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to go over recent email threads on requirements (strokes for example) and add to the requirements wiki page. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action04]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3117 - Go over recent email threads on requirements (strokes for example) and add to the requirements wiki page. [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

ed: the list is long. We need to decide on what we will have in SVG 2.0. This is part of the document I'll start writing up soon.

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback

ed: everybody. It would be great if everybody could add their comments on the features.
... there is a template for doing that.

cl: could we group the features that are the same or very similar.

ed: some features do not have a lot of description, and it makes it harder to judge their relevance/importance.
... one of the big items is the namespace requirements clean-up.
... is that something we can resolve today.

cl: we have a resolution to drop the xlink:href attribute and replace it with href attribute.
... for SVG if it is XML then you need to declare the SVG namespace, but not if it is in HTML5.
... for XML Events namespace which we used in SVG Tiny 1.2. We wont need that. We will reference DOM Events and not XML Events in SVG 2.0.
... it might be as simple as importing things in our own namespace.
... the last thing is that for custom data, in XML you do that with things in your own namespace. In HTML5, it is data-*. We want to define that in SVG so that it is clear that for SVG elements, then the data-* should be reserved and mean the same thing as in HTML.

ed: what about XML id and XML base?

cl: HTML5 only uses base and id instead of xml:base and xml:id.

ed: SVG Tiny 1.2 requires both id and xml:id.

cl: there were questions about using both.

ed: I would like to drop xml:base and xml:id. There is not that much content that would break if we change that.
... if we go with that, we should come up with a way to make legacy content work.

cl: for SVG 2.0, we should put the id and base attributes in the per-element partition and say they mean the same thing as in the HTML5 spec.

<rect id="rect_1" base="http://mysite.com" ... />

cl: is base the same in HTML5 as in xml:base?

ed: I think they are the same, but I am not 100% sure.
... it is the same feature, it should behave the same. There may be minor differences.

<scribe> ACTION: Chris to document the changes around namespace handling in SVG 2.0 (id, base, attributes, etc..). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action05]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3118 - Document the changes around namespace handling in SVG 2.0 (id, base, attributes, etc..). [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

ed: for xlink, I wonder if we drop the xlink prefix, we may get conflicts with some SVG attributes. e.g., xlink:title. There may be other clashes, but I have not checked. The ones used are xlink:title and xlink:href.

cl: yes. In 1.1, for the ones other than xlink:href we said they are for documentation, nothing else.

<cyril> or maybe type vs. xlink:type ?

ed: ok, we can resume the discussion when we have the wiki page done.
... there is a big thing with improving the SVG DOM. I want to see if there is anyone here who wants to make changes to the DOM that are backwards incompatible. Or do we agree on backward compatibility?

<pdengler> what do you mean by partially backward compatible

vhardy: I would be worried about not being backward compatible because there is content using the DOM.

ed: by partially backward compatible, I would like to change the things that are not implemented, not well implemented or not interoperable. But otherwise, be backward compatible.

vhardy: sounds good.

<pdengler> I agree that we need to maintain backward compatability; if there are areas that are maybe really not travelled we could explore

ed: there are some minor parts of the DOM that are not clear or cannot work (e.g., issues with % values).

<pdengler> Agreed, interop is key and if we are not interoperable, these are areas that we could consider

cl: do you have a list?

<ed> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Requirements_Mailing_List_Feedback#Improve_the_DOM

<scribe> ACTION: Erik to raise issues on things that are currently broken in the DOM design. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action06]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3119 - Raise issues on things that are currently broken in the DOM design. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-09-29].

<krit> What about using CSS Units instead of SVG units where possible. If we want to add CSS animations and transitions, this could help the process a lot.

<krit> This could affect SVG DOM

ed: how do CSS units differ from SVG units?

cl: they are the same, except that we allow things to be in user units, and CSS does not.

<krit> SVGLength has more untis IIRC

<krit> just as an example

cl: but I think there is equivalence all the time.

<krit> SVGTransform is different to CSSTransform

cl: for angle, SVG also always requires a unit.

ed: when we put SVG in HTML, that would be a problem about specifying the units.

<krit> SVG DOM might not notice any difference if baseVal points to the CSS property value and animVal points to the computed value

cl: when you use the CSS syntax, then you use the CSS syntax. The different parsing rules are only on the presentation attributes.

ed: there are new units added to the CSS spec. that would be nice to support in SVG. That should just work.
... for example the 'vh' units (viewport height).
... there are some others.
... they are units that we do not require at the moment.

cl: we have to decide the spec. we depend on. In a f2f meeting, we decided the CSS spec. we should depend on and the CSS Values and Units is one of them. So this is taken care of.

ed: ok then, let's move on.
... for the SVG transform v.s., CSS transforms?

vhardy: there is an FX task force action on Dean, Simon and myself to deliver a consolidated spec. that works on CSS and SVG in a unified way. This problem will be addressed there.

ed: there was a proposal for allowing alternative transforms such as mesh, cone, etc.. from David Dailey?

<krit> We have a problem with SVGLengthList..

cl: this collides with the mapping work. We should ask the mapping task force. They are all non-linear transforms.

<krit> This is also not covered in the discussion on CSS animations of x-Attribute

cl: we can split this between the mapping related transforms and the other ones.

<krit> Is there something similar in CSS?

cl: there was another request to do the polar coordinate systems and also a request about perspective transforms.
... these are 3 separate discussions.

<krit> I tried to implement CSS transforms beside SVG transforms. It would work for us in WebKit

<krit> one would get multiplied after the other

<krit> I still think it is a good idea to combine them like we do for other CSS properties (style attributes)

<pdengler> i think we should treat transforms just like any other SVG properity. That is one overrides the other.

ed: Going over the list, there is nothing more that had a lot of comments on it.
... Everybody please go and update the wiki with your comments.
... Moving on to the list of current resolutions.

http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions

ed: we had a resolution to publish an SVG integration spec.
... we need Doug for this. I am not sure if he has made any changes to it.
... on the resolutions page, I noted that there is no rationale nor actions for most of them. We should have both for resolutions, especially for difficult resolutions. Actions may not always be needed, but often they would be needed.
... for example on constructive geometry.

cl: there is no action required for this because it is already in the vector effects spec.

vhardy: may be we could go over the list during the f2f and agree on Action Items where needed or add rationale if not clear.

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Rename_stop-path_to_.27d.27_or_.27path.27_.28Coons_patch_syntax.29
... is the proposal up to date?

tbah: yes.

<tbah> http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html

<scribe> ACTION: tbah to update the http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html proposal to reflect http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Rename_stop-path_to_.27d.27_or_.27path.27_.28Coons_patch_syntax.29 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action07]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3120 - Update the http://tavmjong.free.fr/SVG/MESH/Mesh.html proposal to reflect http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Rename_stop-path_to_.27d.27_or_.27path.27_.28Coons_patch_syntax.29 [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-09-29].

ed: we have a resolutaion on adding the mesh gradient.

<krit> Is there a easy way to implement mesh gradients with usual graphic libraries and basic drawing operations?

cl: do we have an agreement on how to proceed with the spec.?

ed: we have the spec. in place. We need to get jwatt to describe how to go about we start editing the spec.

tbah: once we have that, I can add the gradient mesh feature.

<scribe> ACTION: tbah to edit the SVG 2.0 spec. and add the gradient mesh specification. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action08]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3121 - Edit the SVG 2.0 spec. and add the gradient mesh specification. [on Tavmjong Bah - due 2011-09-29].

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG2_will_use_CSS3_definitions_for_text_layout_.28whitespacing.2C_bidi.2C_etc.29_that_is_not_specific_to_SVG
... this seems like a fairly large change.

cl: the action should be to look at the changes that need to happen and then propose before including.

ed: heycam seems to be the best person to look into this?

cl: yes.

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to assess required changes to SVG 2.0 text section to complete resolution http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG2_will_use_CSS3_definitions_for_text_layout_.28whitespacing.2C_bidi.2C_etc.29_that_is_not_specific_to_SVG [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action09]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3122 - Assess required changes to SVG 2.0 text section to complete resolution http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG2_will_use_CSS3_definitions_for_text_layout_.28whitespacing.2C_bidi.2C_etc.29_that_is_not_specific_to_SVG [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-09-29].

ed: next is http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#CSS_Spec_dependencies.
... do we add this to the reference section.

<scribe> ACTION: cl to add CSS spec. dependencies in the reference section and add proper usage from within the specification text. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action10]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3123 - Add CSS spec. dependencies in the reference section and add proper usage from within the specification text. [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_DOM_method_for_getting_glyph_path_data

<scribe> ACTION: vhardy to propose API for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_DOM_method_for_getting_glyph_path_data [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action11]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3124 - Propose API for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_DOM_method_for_getting_glyph_path_data [on Vincent Hardy - due 2011-09-29].

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_path_rotation_command

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to make a proposal and add to spec. http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_path_rotation_command [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action12]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3125 - Make a proposal and add to spec. http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Add_a_path_rotation_command [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-09-29].

ed: Resolutions
... http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#We_won.27t_add_buffered-rendering_to_SVG_2_unless_implementor_feedback_indicates_that_it_is_needed

vhardy: describes how people use 3d transforms to turn on buffered rendering. I think the attribute is needed.

ed: I think the discussion was that it is possible to detect what needs to be rasterized.
... but it seems true that people use 3d transforms to do buffers today.

vhardy: ok. I am happy to proceed and raise this again based on implementaiton or usage feedback.

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_support_for_SVG_Tiny_fonts_support.2C_and_SVG_Full_fonts_will_be_specified_in_a_separate_module
... there was a lot of feedback on that.

<scribe> ACTION: ed to rip out the font chapter from the SVG spec. and replace it with SVG tiny fonts from SVG Tiny 1.2. Then move the SVG Full fonts to a separate module. http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_support_for_SVG_Tiny_fonts_support.2C_and_SVG_Full_fonts_will_be_specified_in_a_separate_module. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action13]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3126 - Rip out the font chapter from the SVG spec. and replace it with SVG tiny fonts from SVG Tiny 1.2. Then move the SVG Full fonts to a separate module. http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_support_for_SVG_Tiny_fonts_support.2C_and_SVG_Full_fonts_will_be_specified_in_a_separate_module. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2011-09-29].

<krit> SVG Tiny would not be a module?

<pdengler> I thought we were going to completely moduarlize SVG ?

cl: I don't mind taking over the SVG Full Fonts module.

<krit> How much of SVG 1.1 fonts are implemented in other svg viewers? I'm more interessted in the differences. Do some viewers dupport more than SVG Fonts tiny?

cl: we would drop the general font mechanism we use and then only use the bits needed for integration in open type.

<ed> krit: batik does AFAIK, and maybe ASV

<scribe> ACTION: chris to rework the SVG Full font module as an open type glyph table. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action14]

<krit> Ok, so we should keep SVG Fonts 1.1 completely?

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3127 - Rework the SVG Full font module as an open type glyph table. [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

<krit> .. as a module

<pdengler> I think we should keep the SVG Fonts as a separate module

<pdengler> Then "other" fonts should be handled in Text?

<pdengler> We should "make" the SVG Fonts

cl: eventually, this would be an opentype module. Through the woff support, you would get to the module.

pdengler: ok. This is not svg specific then?

cl: yes, the svg render does not see it directly, it only sees it as a woff font. It could be used in printing for example.

pdengler: yes, SVG fonts are useful in some contexts.
... I just wanted to support the modularization of the SVG spec. and support what the industry and browsers need.

cl: I don't think there is a problem there.

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_the_support_for_external_style_sheets.2C_style_element_and_style_attributes_all_with_CSS_syntax

<scribe> ACTION: cl to make the changes to the SVG 2.0 spec. for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_the_support_for_external_style_sheets.2C_style_element_and_style_attributes_all_with_CSS_syntax [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action15]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3128 - Make the changes to the SVG 2.0 spec. for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_mandate_the_support_for_external_style_sheets.2C_style_element_and_style_attributes_all_with_CSS_syntax [on Chris Lilley - due 2011-09-29].

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_keep_viewport-fill_and_viewport-fill-opacity_for_zoom

<scribe> ACTION: cyril to edit SVG 2.0 for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_keep_viewport-fill_and_viewport-fill-opacity_for_zoom [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action16]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3129 - Edit SVG 2.0 for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#SVG_2_will_keep_viewport-fill_and_viewport-fill-opacity_for_zoom [on Cyril Concolato - due 2011-09-29].

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#We.27ll_move_to_using_reftests_as_soon_as_is_feasible

cl: this seems to be working now. It is a bit annoying to not see the reference and the test at the same time, but it does work.

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#We.27ll_consider_the_connector_proposal

cl: are there in the spec?

ed: the resolution was to consider a proposal if there was one.
... there was an action that I'll add to the table.

<ed> ACTION-2681?

<trackbot> ACTION-2681 -- Doug Schepers to write up the connector proposal -- due 2009-10-08 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/actions/2681

ed: http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Remove_the_restriction_of_tref_pointing_to_only_an_SVG_document_fragment

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to edit the spec. for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Remove_the_restriction_of_tref_pointing_to_only_an_SVG_document_fragment. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action17]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3130 - Edit the spec. for http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Resolutions#Remove_the_restriction_of_tref_pointing_to_only_an_SVG_document_fragment. [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-09-29].

<scribe> ACTION: heycam to edit the spec. to broaden the references in SVG (any use of href, e.g., a gradient from another SVG fragment). [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html#action18]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-3131 - Edit the spec. to broaden the references in SVG (any use of href, e.g., a gradient from another SVG fragment). [on Cameron McCormack - due 2011-09-29].

<ed> trackbot, end telcon

This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136  of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43  
Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

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Found ScribeNick: vhardy
Inferring Scribes: vhardy
Default Present: ed, +33.9.53.77.aaaa, tbah, ChrisL, +1.425.868.aabb, +1.425.868.aacc
Present: ed +33.9.53.77.aaaa tbah ChrisL +1.425.868.aabb +1.425.868.aacc
Regrets: DS CC
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-wg/2011JulSep/0145.html

WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth

Found Date: 22 Sep 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/09/22-svg-minutes.html
People with action items: chris cl cyril ed erik heycam tbah vhardy

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