hello John_Boyer. Are you there?

<John_Boyer> yes

<John_Boyer> zakim coming along?

<John_Boyer> Steven and Leigh, the Forms WG public page has a link called "Issue Tracking" that is stale and should be changed to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/

<John_Boyer> Steven and Leigh, the Forms WG public page has a link called "Issue Tracking" that is stale and should be changed to http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/xforms/

<Steven> Yay!

<Steven> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0

<nick> john, if your interested here are the changes I made to the XPath expression module http://www.w3.org/2007/10/htmldiff?doc1=http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/xpath20/index-all-20110621.html&doc2=http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/xpath20/index-all-20110829.html

<scribe> scribe: klotz

<scribe> scribenick: klotz

Agenda

<nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/The_XForms_Dialog_Module

Nick: Dialog

Leigh: We asked Erik to prepare AVT and Nick to prepare XPath 2.0

Erik: Did we decide XForms 1.2 vs 2.0?

Leigh: Yes.
... 2.0 for XPath 2.0

Erik: Why not 3.0 for XPath 3.0?

Steven: We're not using it yet.

<nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Category:XForms20Migrated

John: We attach that when things are migrated to the spec

Nick: Or to a separate module.

John: model-driven switch
... I'd like to discuss it and start editing the XForms 2.0 spec and indicate in the wiki that the content has been migrated.

Steven: Great

Model-Driven Switch

<ebruchez> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/Model-based_switching_with_switch

John: We last discussed this as a child element called selected and if you indicate that child element it provides a UI binding where the current selected case can be stored in instance data with selected/@ref
... I'd like to talk about that one last time and have an @selected attribute on the switch element.
... The only reason that is better is we could make the same approach for repeat so it could store the current index. That has come up recently and there's no way to do a child element of repeat.

Steven: <switch ref="..." selected="...">

Erik: I agree

Steven: selected sounds brilliant

John: And an attribute-based way of index in repeat as well.
... I could write that up for repeat.

Erik: What happens when you switch cases? Does it write back?

John: Yes, it's a 2-way binding.
... Toggle changes the case and writes the newly-selected case.
... If you use setvalue or calculate, or any way you want, then that causes the switch to be selected.

Leigh: What happens with toggle and calculate?
... toggle on a switch bound to a calculated node the node is readonly. that's ok but in what way does the toggle fail?

John: You can set a calculated node to readwrite explicitly for an initial value. I do have to deal with that.

Erik: Corner case
... It's the same as setvalue on a readonly node. It's pretty clear.

Nick: We have to be careful what happens when. If the value is updated in the model then another case is selected and there's event handlers run so we have to be careful that it's specified and consistent.

John: Most of that is already in the wiki content.
... It doesn't matter attribute vs element

Nick: Right

<ebruchez> http://wiki.orbeon.com/forms/doc/developer-guide/xbl-components-guide#TOC-Conventions

Erik: The semantics are easy to determine, but @selected is already a literal attribute on xforms:case and also on xhtml:options. We have an issue with custom attributes or AVTs on components.
... We have some ideas for conventions naming attributes with -ref when they write back to a node and without when you just read a literal value. For dynamism, we use AVT or you could use a child element.
... It would be nice to have a simple set of rules but I am concerned about the name selected.

Steven: I like the idea more than the name, necessarily.
... What does @ref do on switch.

John: relevance and MIPs?

Leigh: Why can't that be the same?

John: switch/@ref is usually a container node.

Erik: That would break stuff.

John: For sure. The @ref might point to a subtree and an internal attribute would be the case.

Steven: We would have chosen @case in the past. Repeat @index.

Leigh: sounds good

Erik: @selected would be confusing.

John: We had challenges with child as a child element. But as an attribute it works.
... @caseref would work as well.

Erik: In XForms 1.1 to avoid HTML conflict we used targetid and targetref. We already have a convention there slightly different from our own with dashes.
... It could be @caseref or @selectedref.

John: @caseref looks good.

Steven: It has good documentary value.

John: The other problem that solves is that we have the convention to use att and child element of same name for AVT and now if it's just case we break that pattern.

Erik: In this case, er instance, er scenario, we don't have the AVT issue because the attribute is already an XPath expression.

Leigh: select/@toggle ?

Steven: No, @caseref is fine.

Leigh: I think it doesn't matter at this point.

RESOLUTION: We change binding for case on select to @caseref.

RESOLUTION: We change binding for case on select to @caseref.

John: OK
... Do we need the selected attributes on case anymore in XForms 2.0?

Nick: You can use them when there is no binding.

Erik: It's initial selected case.
... It's consistent with HTML.

John: We should look at submission/@action for removal in XForms 2.0.

Erik: I have had new feelings about action. In HTML it's still called action.
... But we might want to deprecated @nodeset.

Nick: That's already done.

Erik: We don't use @nodeset anymore in ours.

<nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/wiki/XForms_2.0#structure-attrs-nodeset

Leigh: It's deprecated but not removed. John is asking about things to remove that were already deprecated.

<nick> we deprecate nodeset in XForms 2.0

<nick> (this is already reflected in the spec)

Erik: if() is a problem.

Nick: It's not a big problem because it is in its own namespace.

Erik: I remember Mike Kay discussing such things, XPath function libraries. Is there a way to import into the default namespace? Now you can use the functions unprefixed, the xforms functions. In Java you can use prefix or import packages, and other languages. You get more potential for confusion but it is shorter and maybe clearer.

Nick: We have the xpath 2.0 functions.
... I removed if() from the spec.

Leigh: SO it's porting to XPath 2.0, not compatibility.

Nick: You have to explicitly set the xpath version to 2.0 to get the functions moved to the xforms namespace. You MAY also add them to the default namespace.

Leigh: That was for XForms 1.2. Now we have XForms 2.0. Maybe it should be model/@version="2.0" instead of model/@xpathversion="2.0"

<nick> http://www.w3.org/MarkUp/Forms/specs/XForms1.2/modules/xpath20/index-all.html#xpath-version-attribute

John: The xpath version could be defaulted based on the model version.

Nick: That's one of the possibilities.
... I thought that was too complicated to switch automatically.

Leigh: If it's XForms 2.0 it should be XPath 2.0.

John: A 2.0 processor with <model> should give you XForms 2.0 and XPath 2.0. The only meaningful way to be explicit about version would be version=1.0 or version=1.1.

Nick: I believe our version is a list so you can say 1.0 1.1. 2.0.

John: That's a doubly-good-reason to let XPath default to the processor's version.

Nick: The same form would behave differently depending on the XForms processor and XPath engine. If we say if the XFOrms versions contains 2.0 and up then the default and other cases it's 1.0.

Leigh: THen just put in the xpathversion attribute.

John: The author shouldn't put 1.1 2.0 in version if it won't work with xpath 1.0.
... They can also give an xpathversion.

Nick: Are the functions in the XForms namespace if you ask for 1.0 compatibility mode?

John: An XPath 2.0 engine in XPath 1.0 mode you need namespace-qualified names?

Nick: If you are requesting XPath 2.0 vs XPath 1.0 you are screwed.

Leigh: I think you are just screwed anyway.

John: We have a set of Xpath 1.0 functions. It's not much sweat to require when using an XPath 1.0 engine that we make available all the same functions in the default and also XForms namespace.

Nick: I thought we could do that.

John: We should. Stick with XForms ns functions and you have a reasonable change.

Steven: What is the proposal?

John: In xpathversion=1.0 mode the no-namespace XForms functions are also in the xforms: namespace. choose or xf:choose. That seems easy.
... Then xf:choose will work in XForms 2.0 XPath 1.0 or XPath 2.0.

Leigh: Sounds good.

Steven: yes.

<Steven> S/THen/Then/

RESOLUTION: In XForms 2.0 xpathversion=1.0 mode the no-namespace XForms functions are also in the xforms: namespace.

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/depricate/deprecate/
Succeeded: s/xpathversion/xpath version/
Succeeded: s/xpath version/xpathversion/
Found Scribe: klotz
Inferring ScribeNick: klotz
Found ScribeNick: klotz

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Got date from IRC log name: 29 Aug 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/08/29-forms-minutes.html
People with action items: 

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