See also: IRC log
Nat McCully (Adobe)
Nat talks about line layout, and how the model in CSS differs from that in InDesign
Nat: Core concept of ideographic
embox
... In 1998, most fonts don't have this. Each product had to do
calculations for it.
... ...
... Once you have ideographic embox built into line layout
engine, you can support other concepts
... e.g. leading direction -- whether leading is forwards or
backwards wrt line
... If you have two lines and you set leading, which one will
move?
... Leading measurement points, or baselines, is from where in
the line do you measure from
... When you have multiple font sizes in a line, changing this
reference point changes the spacing between lines
... Lastly, if we have time I can talk about Mojikumi spacing.
Refers to adjustment of space around punctuation to achieve
good full justification.
... So, when laying text out on the screen, you generally have
margins, that you decide, and in both CSS layout and InDesign
you decide the LTRB margins
... within which you want to layout a text line.
... So each line box gets laid out within the margin area
Nat's screen shows a white box with purple rectangles representing line boxes
Nat: Vertical layout is similar
Nat's screen shows the same, but with the line boxes oriented vertically
Nat: But there are some
differences between CSS and traditional line layout
... Within the line box, we have a calculated line height
... In CSS this is equal to the leading.
... For example, if you have this text (shows some text in
English)
... You get the ascent and descent from the font metrics to
calculate the text height
... And you place it somewhere within that line height
... So, let's depart a bit from CSs and talk about InDesign
Roman Composition.
... Within the first line's line height, we place the text like
this
Nat shows a purple box covering the ascent.
Nat: The second line box looks like this, and the text is placed thus
Nat shows the second line box extending from alphabetic baseline of first line to alphabetic baseline of second line
Nat: So the first line has the
same height as the ascent
... Second line uses 100% of the leading *of the second
line*.
... So the line leading direciton is upwards in this
case.
... Notice that each line's y position in the frame is equal to
the Roman baseline.
... You can see that the descender of the second line is
hanging outside the linebox.
... So, how did I change this for Japanese?
... In Japanese composition, you need to do some different
hings.
... You have your line box.
... And you have text placed within that line box
... And then you have your second line with its line box, and
then text inside that one
... The first line offset is set to the embox height
... OpenType fonts have an 'ideo' baseline.
... This was added so that the font designer can tell us where
the Roman baseline is wrt the embox
... The second line offset is the embox height of the second
line plus the previous line gap.
... The line gap is placed downward
Nat's screen shows a purple box the height of the Japanese text, a gap, and then the next purple box
Nat: The default behavior in
InDesign is to measure from the embox top to the next embox
top
... when setting leading
... So in developing the EPUB layout engine, I've been working
with experts at adobe to tell me how conventions are followed
in CSS.
... And so when placing text within the line, we first get the
metrics fo the font
... and then we divide the line gap in half, and place half
above the text and half below
Nat's screen shows a diagram of this
Nat: I'm told this is in order to
make it easier for browsers to avoid text lines writing on top
of each other, and ot give enough space above and below the
text for ascenders and descenders.
... When I first saw this, I thought, what a problematic way to
do text layout
... because you cannot predict where the text will be within
the line box
... This is especially true when you have different font
sizes
... So the line y position for the layout engine is at the
baseline, because when you're drawing text you need to place
the pen at the roman baseline
... So, suppose we have some different-sized text within the
line
... We have our line box, and each line's metrics
Nat's screen shows two text boxes aligned by baseline
Nat: Then you add the line
gap.
... The line height increases as you add text.
... The baseline moves down, but the calculation is not
straightforward if you want to get an exact pixel position on
the screen.
... In InDesign, when you have different point sizes, such as
in this Japanese run
... We get the text metrics as before
... ...
... The Japanese text has a particular relation to the roman
baseline
... As far as the user is concerned, they don't have to worry
about the calculations. Their text is centered within the line
box
Nat's screen shows large Japanes text next to small Japanese text within the purple line box
The roman baselines are not aligned -- the ideographic emboxes are centered within the purple line box
Nat: In CSS, there have been
controls added for choosing baselines.
... The main problem I have right now is leading being added
above and below
... I have a proposal to solve it, but it has some
drawbacks.
... In Japanese two major baslines used are embox center
baseline and embox bottom baseline
... When measuring leading, you measure from top of embox to
top of next embox
Nat shows a diagram. Gap between lines is labeld as aki -- line gap
Nat: Why do we need grids?
... In InDesign we have two different grids.
... First is the Roman baseline grid.
... This grid is in both Japanese and Roman InDesign.
... In Japanese InDesign we added a different grid.
... This is what a Japanese grid looks like.
Nat shows example with long rectangles representing the lines, separated by gaps
Most lines are that size, and fit within that grid
Three lines are in a bigger font size: they are centered within the bounding box of four line grid boxes.
Nat: In the Japanese grid, we can center wrt the grid
Nat shows an example where there is small text, then large text, then small text in one line
Nat: The big bold text is
centered within the two grid boxes
... The first run is bottom-aligned to the centered text. The
second small run is top-aligned wrt the centered (bold)
text.
... When the text is placed wrt the grid, it makes for a more
pleasant reading experience.
... So to summarize, the Japanese grid has seeral purposes
1) Sets the frame size to fit the grid
2) Positions lines in the frame rgardless of font size to fit the grid (snaps like bsaelines e.g. embox centers)
The baseline grid:
1) Allows lines in the paragrpah to "snap" to the grid, aligning to "snapped" line sin any other frame on the page
2) Supports any single baseline (embox or Roman) per paragraph
Nat: The baseline grid is drawn
over the whole page.
... When you place frames on that page, the text within those
frames is moved to snap to the grid.
... what that accomplishes is that across different
frames
... The text matches position
... For example in multiple paragraphs, depending on whether
you have titles or pictures or something embedded within those
columns,
... The body text in the left column will be snapped to the
same lines as the body text in the right coumn
... so that overall the layout on the page will be very
clean.
... The snapping behavior to the grid is a paragraph
setting
... When you set that, you can have a choice of snapping the
first line of the paragraph to the grid, or all lines of the
paragraph to the grid.
... Within that, you choose which baseline to snap to
... You can choose embox bottom, embox top
... It snaps to the grid
... So I see that we're almost out of time
... So I will leave it at that and hope we have fruitful
discussion about grids and any other thing.
RRSAgent: make logs public
Koji: I will talk about the Tokyo session and ideas and opinions presented there.
Koji (via translater): We had 5 sessions in Tokyo, and today I will present the results of each of the sessions.
Koji: Firstly, an EPUB session,
we had presentation Hiratsukashi
... City of Hiratsukashi has been distributing PR brochure in
EPUB since March
... In Hiratsuka in order to reduce file size, they are using
CSS3 properties such as border-radius
... And also they are hoping to be able to change the layout
depending on the device/orientation
... They're not using Ruby because it was unstable on some
terminals, so they are using brackets
... Next panelist we had was person from Toppan printing
company.
... One of the first requests that Toppan person made was that
they wanted to define box sizing by number of characters and
number of lines
... Also, in terms of line-breaking rules in CSS3 Text, they
want to specifically designate certain characters for line
breaking rules (by codepoint)
... We also discussed line notes (warichu)
... The comment they raised is how are we going to treat these
in Web and ePublishing
... The request comes from the fact that some people would like
to publish things like this in electronic formats
... Question is whether something like this can be done in
electronic format
... Also, Toppan Printing made comments about so-caled private
characters.
... Unicode is so well-spread today. They found 1200 chars in
Ko-jien dictionary that are not in Unicode.
... They searched 800 books, 1400 chars (0.6%) are not in
Unicode
... So they also said that in archaeologists excavate, every
year discover about 30 new characters.
... For EPUB we use WOFF/OpenType, but according to Toppan SVG
fonts are easier to create. They suggest supporting SVG,
too.
... Discussions about font and private characters will be
covered deeper in session 4.
... A person from company Voyager was a panelist
... As you probably aware, they developed ebook reader and
marketing it since 1993
... Voyager person made a point that in general Japanese
literature you can often see mixed writing modes.
... This is a cover page.
... Then the table of contents follows
... And next is section heading, typically vertical writing
to
... Main text is normally all vertical
... And back matter is normally horizontal.
(cover page was also horizontal)
Koji: They raised some
questions.
... One was whether mixed mode can be used in EPUB
... Whether change in progresion is possible for section
heading
... Other point the Voyager person made was that we may need to
review some line-breaking rules
... One of the resons for this is because we are going to
enable reflow, or differences in resolution, we may need
different line-breaking rules than rules in the paper
world.
... In fact, Voyager person said they implemented different
line-breaking rules than the one sin JIS, wrt inseparable
characters and also some other elements such as grouping
(?)
... And some comments were made about possibly user-switchable
text-flow.
... Voyager's readers have always supported vertical/horizontal
switching by the user.
... concern that this will increase cost of content
development.
... In Tokyo discussion, general consensus was that depending
on the content we may enable this kind of switching for the
user, although it may increase production cost.
<murakami> Voyager readers can break group ruby.
Koji: But we may also implement
some mechanism that allows the creator to prevent users from
switching.
... Also the other point was made that we may need to allow
this kind of switching from accessibility point of view. But
this is a different discussion.
... The other request that Voyager made was about old chinese
writing (kanbun)
... Their understanding is that kanbun writings are often
included in textbooks, so they should be supported.
... In terms of how to support this in CSS/EPUB, needs further
discussion.
... Next panelist we heard from was from Impress R&D
... They publish a magazine called [??]
... They're publishing on Web, printing, and ebook.
... They're separate in production, on an experimental
basis
... Basically the question is, when they have one set of
contents, how can they change the style and layout for
different formats.
... They also made a point that in carrying out such
experiments, they discovered that some implementations are
behind.
... In terms of logic, it sounds correct, but in reality did
not work.
... One particular example was that SVG and MathML and fonts in
vertical writing did not work well
... Mainichi Communications spoke too.
... In their company they're publishing in PDF.
... One of the benefits of using PDF is that they can use the
content with paper printing, so the production cost will be
low
... But it is hard to read, especially on small devices.
... Their understanding is that if we really want a full-scale
launch of ebook, we have to break down components of paper
publishing and redesign for ebook publishing.
... Their two requests that they made in terms of publishing
future and for the web
... One point they made is was that, especially in fee-pay
services, we need high quality layout, fonts, use of private
characters, etc. (Although may not be as good quality as
paper)
... They're particularly concerned about color
... Especially when the publish things like photo albums.
... Asahi Newspaper
... They started browsers/iPad/Android services in May
... Technically speaking, such services are based on
HTML5/CSS3
... One of the greatest reasons for using HTML5/CSS3 is that
they are compatible with video and multi-column layout
... Because there are some old PC browsers that aren't using
HTMl5, they aren't using HTML5 for PC
... In terms of design, they are using totally different design
tha tnon-prepaying Asahi.com
... One thing that they hope to do is make this fee-paying
service much more like real newspapers
... using boxes and multi-column layout
... Also if we look at conventional news websites, because the
text is so small, they are very hard to tap with fingers
... These are actual screenshots
Koj: Right hand side is fee-paying service; left hand side is web page
Koji: Asahi Newspaper said they
gave up using Ruby because some browsers cannot maintain
vertical rhythms
... What they also hope to do in the future, they attach
particular importance to their own fonts.
... But the file sizes are too large for users to
download
... In terms of Gaiji or private characters, what purposes do
we need private characters?
... Obviously proper nounds such as people and place
names
... Also the other great source of need is political parties,
making iconic-square ligature (kumimoji)
... that's it for reports from Tokyo session.
... Do you have any questions or comments?
Ashimura of W3C: I asked same question day before,
Ashimura: EPUB is combination of
CSS and HTML as a package
... Asahi said that validation is very difficult. Validation
itself is not difficult, but fixing errors is difficult.
... Do others have a need to make these functions easier?
... Comments from audience?
Koji: How many are creating content in EPUB?
several raise their hands
Koji: How many use EPUB validation tool?
<dbaron> 2 raise their hands
Mitsubishi, involved in JAGAT
Mitsubishi: I don't see any
problems with validation. I also work on PDF, and for PDF2 we
need validation to check compatibility with printing
... For EPUB, it's just started now. We don't need anything
right now, but in the future there will be many mroe validation
tools.
Koji: Any more questions?
?: My name is Hagimura, and I work in Web Publishing.
Hagimura: Printing and Newspaper companies are trying to achieve same quality as paper printing?
Koji: My understanding is that
they don't necessarily require same quality standards for
epublishign and paper. We need to establish different standards
for elctronic publishing.
... But as Asahi and ?machi person said, the current standards
of CSS publishing is not good enough for fee-charging
services.
... I'd like to hear your opinion, too, ifyou'd like
Hagimura: As someone working on
Web, I'm fed up with discussion that we have to be same as the
paper.
... In terms of what you said, wrt quality are they requiring
better quality wrt layout or general general ? or content wrt
fee-charging services
Koji: As I recall, what ? perosn aid, if we are going to publish some kind of graphic services we need better color calibration. Also in temrs of general view, fonts and line-breaking etc, will need to optimize to the new environment.
Nat: I don't think anyone thinks
that we need to reproduce the same layout that we get on paper
on the Web.
... We have PDF for that.
Nat++ :)
Nat: We need the UA to be able to
control where things go on the screen, so that the author can
place content predictably on the screen.
... One of the problems we keep hearing over and over is that
ruby increases the line height.
... The consensus was to add a boolean to choose which behavior
you wanted.
... What this does is that it adds compexity to the API and the
markup. But I think that it's possible to honor the conventions
that existed in print
... The conventions existed for a reasons, they existed because
legibility and beauty of design has become refined on
paper.
... We can take that refinement and adapt it to the Web.
... That's why we're requesting these kinds of controls, so
that the UA can give these controls to the user.
jdaggett: I think there's a
tension in CSS between giving the designer control over the
design, and assuring that the user actually sees a result
that's visible.
... I guess it seems like a counter to some o the stuff you're
saying.
... Fixed line heights are great, but gives the author
opportunity to shoot themselves in the foot and make line
heights that collide
... I'd like to hear if you think that's something to
consider.
Nat: I think that many of these
topics that we're going to talk about, font fallback, the
beginnings of the rendering side of the Internet technology had
different browsers giving completely different layout for the
same markup.
... So this problem is I think extremely important for the Web,
and less so for print.
... Although in print we had similar problems in the early
days
... Layout was unpredictable depending on fonts.
... So I think that right now CSS errs in the direction of
providing layout with the lowest common denominator, and as a
result we get really ugly layout.
... And unfortunately, there is no way for the so-called
correct browser to display the correct layout because the
controls don't exit yet, just starting to come together
now.
... I think things will improve greatly when more and more
platforms support a single browser technology, or at least the
browser technologies agree on exactly what is supposed to
happen.
... CSS3 Text leaves too much up to the UA.
... But your quesiton makes me feel very positive about the
outlook and I think we can definitely work on it.
Koji closes, everybody claps.
Masaki Yamabe CTO/Designer ??
Yamabe: I'm from Alliance Port.
We design and produce websites. I'm invited by ? from W3C.
Today I'm going to share with you what we have done so far in
Japanese typesetting.
... Let me introduce what we do at our company. In addition to
web designing we do .. DTP /logo
... We work with both analog and digital.
... As we discussed in first session, one of our challenges is
how we make beauty of Japanese layout into web site.
... Now I'm going to share with you wnat we have done.
... 5 years ago in 2006, here is an example of vertical
typesetting for Japanese layout.
... If you look back 5 years ago, there's almost no existing
vertical typesetting implementation.
... We went through trial and error process, finally
implemented vertical typesetting.
... What we did in 2006 was website for traditional Japanese
inn.
... And please look at the screen on your left. On the top to
the right is the vertical Flash.
... Flash is used on the top to the right.
... What we did for vertical typesetting you can se eon the
bottom.
... Simply describing the website, this a blog for Japanese and
traditional inn
... First the managers or owners of the inn write the blog
contents using the CMS Moveable Type
... The CMS text is converted to XML, which is set vertically
with JavaScript
... This is how it looks like
slide shows horizontal text in the text box
converted to XML format <item>, <published>, <description>, etc.
Yamabe: After that it's arranged vertically with Javascript
bottom of slide shows vertical text.
Yamabe: If you look at hte
subject, we impelmented the typeface to make some
expression.
... I fyou look at XML version and the JavaScript version, you
can see that the numerals are converted to Chinese numerals
(date is converted
)
(and formatted, started out as iso, now in CJK)
Yamabe: As I explained before,
the CMS Moveable Type is used.
... The horizontal text from the CMS is rearranged vertically
with JavaScript
... Let me explain how we rearrange.
slide:
Not using CSS rotation but using <div> for each character
slide shows tons of divs with style attributes, classes, one per character
letterspacing done with margin-top
each line of text is inside a <div class="lb">
Lines are arranged vertically using float
Typeset processing
* applying line break not only lining up characters vertically
* adjusting punctuation marks to correct position
*replacing to vertical characters
*replacing Arabic numbers ot Chinese numerals automatically
Yamabe: Implementing
line-breaking rules
... Need to replace characters e.g. for vertical brackets
... Also need to adjust punctuation mark position using
position: relative
... For the numerals we developed source code that converted
the numbers
e.g. 11 -> 十一
Yamabe: Let me do some demonstration.
Yamabe shows slide with demo of tategumi.js
Yamabe: We disclosed the
information on how we implemented this, if you're interested
ask me.
... This is where the vertical script islaid out
... Here we have markup in HTML.
... We classified text into different categories, e.g. heading,
main body, etc.
... We assigned an ID when we want to convert from horizontal
to vertical
... Let me show you how we make this website
Yamabe shows JS
Yamabe: First you specify id of
what you wnat to convert
... Then we assign parameters, using selectors
... For example if I delete an ID, then it's going to go back
to horizontal layout like this
... These are the parameters that we can set
... First font-size by pixel
... glyphs per line
... line margin
... space between letters (glyphMargin)
... Also block Margin, will explain in detail later
... And you assign either true or falso whether you wnat to
activate or deactivate kinsoku
... So by setting these parameters, you change expressions in
the vertical layout
... For example, if I change from 16 to 20
... you can really change the font size
... Here is an example, between first line and second line the
line-breaking rules are applied.
... But if you set it to false, they will lay out without the
line breaking rules (period can start a line)
... Here is just one line-breaking rules.
... You can specify which letters are subject to the
line-breaking rules.
... Here I will copy a large amount of text into honmon
area.
... It will make columns.
... Readers can simply scroll down.
... Margin between different columns are set here.
... Here we have 100px blockMargin, which will be applied
between columns.
... Regarding font type and sizes, you can set them using the
style sheet.
... This script is available in github
http://github.com/allianceport/tategumi.js
Yamabe: MIT license
Yamabe returns to presentation slides
Yamabe: Our objective for this
project was to do in browsers what we do in the editors
... not using Flash
... Through this project, we felt that we were able to do a lot
of things in parameters using a combination of XML, HTML,
JavaScript, and CSS.
... For example in 2008, we developed a script that enabled
multi-columns. At that time CSS multicol was not
available
... If you look at the source code, it's just one block, but
once it goes thorugh the JS, it is separated into two columns
like this.
... We're using our automatic layout to develop a newspaper
block, where we implemented vertical layout as well as the
multi-column layout
... In this website once they write their text, the XML is then
laid out as for a newspaper
... You have a vertical text heading, and multi-columns for the
text.
... Regarding pictures, once the users upload the
pictures
... The text flows around the pictures
... User can choose whether they want to place the picture on
the right or the left
Slide shows box of text in 2 columns. Top of 2ncd column is taken by picture. It is floated; the sentence from the bottom of the column continues after the picture.
(the picture is exactly the width of the column)
Yamabe: Users can choose the size
of the papers -- A4 or A3
... They can print them out into A4 papars
... Columns are common in DTP, but it was very difficult ot
implement in JavaScript
... If you're interested in this newspaper blog
http://www.allianceport.jp/shinbunblog/demo/
Typeset Engine for Newspaper Blog slide:
* In case of Japanese, character area is calculated by numbers of characters and number of characters are calculated by character area
* Wrapping around automatically
* Making newspaper name vertically
Yamabe: When it comes to the
newspaper blog, you have defined areas you can put text
into
... You are given a number of characters which you can enter
into the newspaper.
... When the overflow happens, we have a magnifying glass so
you can read the overflowing contents (issue)
... We didn't want users to write a special language, therefore
we try to do almost everything by this automatic layout engine
so that users can simply input what they want to say, like
writing a blog
... It is then presented like a newspaper
... What we wanted to provide with this newspaper blog, we
didn't want the users to write in a special language
... We just want users to make a blog, like a regular blog. The
automatic engine converts their input
... We follow the progress on CSS development, but only enhance
our own layout engine.
... Even though CSS3 is there, some browsers do not
support.
... We will continue using both our own engine as well as
CSS.
... Our objective is to make something enjoyable, like the
layouts we showed you.
... ...
... Random typography, Fractal typography
... Here I'd like to share with you ...
... One of them is random typography. It was used for Design
Language 2.0
... The cover of this book is done with random typography
Yamabe shows photo of a book cover where a block of text is set in random font sizes and styles (per character)
Yamabe: This cover contains the names of the authors as well as a summary of the book. This is randomly laid out using JavaScript
Yamabe shows an example of this in the browser.
Clicking reload changes the typography
Yamabe: You see random type
sizes, styles, and margins
... This is possible because we use the Web tehcnology, with
paper-based design we couldn't do this. People liked this idea,
that's why they took this idea.
... This design on the cover is done by Yasuhito Magahara. He
used our technology
... Before closing I would like to share with you anothe rone,
which is Fractal Typography
... This is artwork, which we exhibited at ? Newspaper
Building
... I will show you a tape
... So we have this using plasma display with Google Chrome
fullscreen
Showas an exmaple
on the screen
the characters are placed one-by-one, large, small, filling in gaps etc.
minute-taker can't tell how one is supposed to read any of it
as the placement seems pretty random
and in some cases overlapping
Yamabe: We are inspired by
typography works where they laid out .. metal
... We tried to mimic that technology by using our own
technology
... Each letter is sandwiched with <div>s
... From aesthetic perspective, it's not so good. But the
program runs very smoothly
... They are not necessarily readable, but we accept
that.
... Japanese language is unique in that you can write both
horizontally and vertically.
... When we created this work, it is enjoyable even if it's not
readable.
... This is actually accepted by the audience as well.
... We used the ? newspaper typeface since we exhibited at the
? newspaper building.
... As for fractal typography, we expose the script, so if
you're interested please ask me.
... Thank you very much.
... Any questions?
Nat asks to see the newspaper blog again.
Nat: My comment is about last
quesiton in the session, do we need to recreate what's on
paper.
... This argument goes back and forth.
... As you can see, this layout is very nicely representing
what normally we can see on a newspaper.
... But when I see this, as someone who is rather
detail-oriented, I see that the picture has caused the text in
the second column to move up a couple pictures
... And the top of the text does not align on the top of the
picture.
... These types of details, it looks ok.
... If you can support puting this on the character grid
... And have the pictures be put relative to the character
face.
... Even if the users can't tell you what they're looking at,
they can appreciate the quality.
... The comments we get is that they won't pay for this.
... It's revolutionary technology to make this Shinbun blog.
But wouldn't it be nice to go a little bit futher.
s/futher/further/
<dbaron> the example is http://www.allianceport.jp/shinbunblog/demo/portal/cat4/05/post_1.html
<dbaron> discussing in particular alignment of text in the columns under the heading "新人が入社しました" due to the image
Yamabe: We don't believe it's
necessary to reproduce what's on paper, but it's necessary to
recreate paper.
... ...
... Users that can't use InDesign can enjoy a newspaper-like
blog.
...
... Let me share with use use case for this blog.
... In their class, they divided into smaller groups in one
class.
... And they made investigation of ? products
... The Ministry of ?and Forestry
... ... based on this campaign by the ministry, the schoolkids
were sent out to make investigation of their local foods
... They went out to the field and looked for local products,
like fish or crops
... They put tohse information into blog
... They are laid out like newspapers.
<dbaron> s/?and Forestry/Agriculture and Forestry/
Yamabe: Question was dealing with
fonts sizes and window sizes etc. for multicol
... We don't actually convert XML to HTML, we use regular
markup
... And using scripts convert the horizontal layout to vertical
layout.
... So once you access the information I provided to you, the
source code and demonstration
Question on how to render vertical glyphs
Yamabe shows source code, which converts to vertical presentaiton forms
Question was about the katakana prolongation mark
For vertical text they use a vertical line
Question was about use of the script. Answer is, it's under MIT license, and you can use it within scope of that license.
Yamabe: I will stay in this program to the end, so if you have further questions please ask later.
<br type="lunch">
<dbaron> </br>
<dbaron> The next session is session 3. Approach to the e-book Business. Keitaro Hanada, Sharp Corporation.
Hanada: First I'd like to cover
our company history. Over past 10 years we've been involved in
e-expressions. Also review what kind of contents we have been
dealing with
... First, an introduction of our company shop
... Sharp entered ebook business in 2001. Actually we had been
working in ebook business before, but not stated publishing
yet
... Our company originally has nothing to do with books or
publishing. We develop electronic devices and mobiles
... In that way, as the mobile phone tterminals evolved, our
ebook business has evolved accordingly.
... When we started to provide services, we had PDA and also
notebook PCs
... First we started to deal with text, books and other
literature
... Around 2006, XMDF 2.* we started targetting mobile phones,
too
... PDA is mainly aimed at business customers. As you know,
mobile phones are targetted at many more people, particularly
young people.
... As a result our targetted publications change from regular
text to more comic books
... initially, people wondered whether it would be possible to
read manga on mobile phones.
... of course not possible to display the whole page, but can
show frame by frame and young people did not mind
... Much of what we publish today is comics
... Also, the tablets' function and performance have advanced,
and we've started to see emergence of tablets
... So our business started to focus on more high-perf
terminals that can display e.g. magazine media
... In 2010 we started to develop terminals specifically for
book formats
... One of the main pillars of our technology is XMDF --
ever-eXtending Mobile Document Format
... XMDF technology is based on XML
... As I said before, it's focused on mobile so we needed
technology that functions well in an environment with smaller
resources, but still has high speed, high-performance with
small amount of memory
... As for XMDF, there's a distribution format and execution
format
... Description format is standardized by IEC
... One of the features of XMDF format, it has support for
Japanese-specifi features such as vertical writing, line
breaking rules, and ruby
... JP language support functions are not very special, not
going to cover all of them
... One thing I will talk about is float graphics.
... We became compatible with horizontal/vertical switching
from an early point in time.
... So users are able to choose vertical or horizontal mode,
and either way it provides a decent view.
... Some functions presented here, e.g. bg image, bg music,
conrol over page advance
... Also has a jump function, used in e.g. dictionary or
choose-your-own-adventure story
... Next is a comic function
... As I said, you can't see the entire page at once on a
mobile device, so how we show the frames is important
... For example, here we have a vertically-long frame so you
can't display the whole frame in one screen.
... It shows the top first, and then automatically scrolls to
show the whole frame.
... Also, cartoon creators tend to use various expression. For
example, the example on the right shows starting on the right,
scrolling to the left, then coming back to the middle.
... Also we have functions implemented in our terminals
... When you change from one frame to next frame, we can set
some special effects such as vibration.
... We have also been involved in electronic dictionary. XMDF
can be used for this kind of e-dictionary
... Dictionaries are one of the electronic contents that can be
marketed
... Functions I have been explaining here were realized even
before 2-3 years ago
... Last year we extended our format to accommodate other
content suhc as newspapers and magazines
... So we moved from the conventional format such as text media
or comics to magazines
... There's a wider range of formats in magazine layouts, so we
needed a format that can almost copy roughly what we can do in
paper format.
... Also we wanted to enable dynamic format that's also
possible in electronic media
... We've added 3 different type of formats
... First one is image format. This is straight scanning and
copy of paper media into a bitmap format
... Benefit of this format is that users can access layout
image that they are accustomed to in printed media
... You can drag around the image to see parts of it and also
zoom in and out
... Magazine format is relatively free, but for user it's hard
to read the text because you constantly have to scroll up and
down, left and right to read the text.
... That's why we added the next format, that we call the
hybrid format.
... It's still an image format, but there is text inserted into
the format.
... Basically what the user can do is first they look at the
entire image and layout and photos. If they want to read parts
of the text, they can go to text-only mode and read the
text.
... The third one, multi-layout format. This is specifically an
electronic format and the text does reflow.
... Because we are assuming this format will be viewed by
different kinds of terminals, it's compatible with
multi-layout, such as portrait vs. layout, vertical writing,
horizontal
... It changes layout depending on screen sizes as well.
... This is an example of multi-layout
... As you can see on the screen, you can increas the text size
without changing the layout.
or the pictures.
Hanada: This table shows
different patterns of multi-layout that this format can
do.
... For example you can have 10in screen or 5.5in screen
... You can select vertical flow or horizontal flow, portrait
or landscape.
... Of course you don't have to create content to fit all these
different patterns. You can create content for one format, and
somehow the terminal will cope with it and display the
contents.
... We have these different settings to meet the demands of the
publishers.
... Some publishers want to have completely different layout
for 10in vs 5in, etc.
... We create a format and sell terminals that provide a
viewer.
... We also make content-creation tools as well.
... These are the 3 patterns we have
... ...
... There's actually one layout format not included in this
slide.
... That's what we call HTML View. It imports HTML as-is and
displays as-is.
... This is actually one of the formats that we strongly
recommend.
... Many customers will tell us that XMDF is complicated, and
we already have a lot of content in HTML.
... You might wonder why we didn't put that format in this
slide, will touch on that later.
... In our first format, image and hybrid
... Publishers already have the contents in paper, so such
images and text can be automatically converted to this
format.
... The third format, multi-layout format, we're talking about
publishers using a creation tool to make the layout.
... This is the overview of the workflow.
Slide:
Input Material
Edit the Body Text
Edit the Page Layout
Confirm the output
Publish
Input formats: Adobe InDesign IDML format
plan text
HTML
TTX
XMDF Description Format
Hanada: One challege for
e-publishing is that e-publishing alone is not going to make
financial support
... They're still a paper-based business, and e-publishing is
on the side.
... I think that will change soon, but right now there is a
need to reduce the cost of e-publishing for such
publishers.
... The key challenge that we face is how to minimize specific
processes that are only required for e-publishing.
... Basically we don't want to add many complex processes just
for electronic format.
... One of the most important things is of course to be
compatible with various content data formats, for example
InDesign's format.
... And one work that it's speficially required for electronic
publishing is the page layout, or multipe-page layout assuming
it will be published to multipel terminal types.
... The other thing that publishers .. is the proofreading of
the contents.
... Of course this proof-reading process is time
consuming
... especially if you have to proof read for various
terminals
... The proof-reading is a lot of work, and costs a lot.
... It will be impossible for publisher to buy all the terminal
sto test.
... So tools that emulate terminals can be used to check.
... The other challenge is related to the private
characters.
... PC environment has the same problem, but moreso in mobile
fonts due to limited fonts they can carry.
... Usually such devices are only compatible with JIS level 1
and level 2
... In our creation tool, we compatible with Adobe 1.6
fonts
... As long as fonts are within this collection, it creates a
bitmap graphic and inserts within text
... Some people wonder why not insert and use real fonts.
... But due to limitations of mobile devices, we think at this
point this is the best option.
... Now I have been talking mainly about XMDF format that is
our ebook
... Now I'd like to switch subject.
... These slides are from the Tokyo forum and panel
discussion
... Going to talk about challenges we see in the future of
CSS.
... As we enter this ebook business, in the past we have taken
care of large portion of this value chain of ebook
business.
Slide: Production, Deliver, View
Hanada: This is an old business
model. In new model, there are standards and different players
play different roles.
... We recognize that and try to change our role.
s/role/business model/
Hanada: What we feel is that in
order to tackle challenges in ebook business, we have to keep
in mind entire picture of this value chain.
... Specifically, the first challenge as we see is display
layout setting.
... So content builders can configure the settings, and users
can change the settings. How are we going to balance these
two?
... In the past, mostly the publisher or creator side dictated
the layout. They had certain views or layouts in mind that they
wanted the user to see and created that.
... But recently we are starting to see that users are wanting
to choose how they see the screen.
... Also in terms of contents there is more .. type of content
that high quality and layout really matter, and other where
it's just information really
... So rather than the layout, ...
... In terms of our implementation, we make it possible to
choose vertical reading and horizontal reading.
... So there are 3 possible types of settings for character
direciton.
... First one is not specified, which means user can choose
whether to read vertically or horizontally.
... Second choice is a set value, the author sets the preferred
value but the user can change it.
... The third one is enforced.
... The publisher says "this is for vertical only", then the
user cannot change it.
... So basically in terms of our hardware we're making all
possible to set these different types of settings
... Which one is chosen depends on the character and nature of
the contents.
... In the case of JP people, they tend to like reading things
vertically.
... So they tend to choose reading vertically.
... Also we have notification functions, on the content-builder
functions.
... They can say there'll be maintenance outage tomorrow,
etc.
... As you can imagine the speed and timing is key for such
messages, so usually composed in horizontal format. If
displayed in vertical will look strange.
... Second is foreground / background color.
... Basically in terms of color spettings, if publisher doesn't
set anything, then the user can choose the colors.
... If the publisher sets colors, then the user cannot change
anything.
... Because as you'd image in font color and bg color are too
similar, in some cases it will be hard to set the color of the
text.
... So in most cases either the publisher will dictate, or the
user will chose the colors at their own responsibility.
... There's a fine line in terms of how much we allow users to
change. There's question of accessibility, and also some users
have strong preferences.
... ... difficult decision to make.
... We can also specify line break rules, which characters are
in scope, character spacing, and hanging punctuation
... For this implementation, we only allow content builder to
change these settings because some publishers really want to
control these, but users hardly wnat to control these
elemtns.
s/mtns/ments/
Hanada: As for Ruby, there are
two types of ???
... One usage is when Kanji is very difficult to read.
... So the publisher might put Ruby in because they think the
kanji is difficult.
... But we allow the user to turn that off, if they can read
every kanji.
... But there are some other special cases where publishers put
ruby to force the pronunciation of characters in an unusual
way.
... In those cases we don't allow the user to turn the ruby
off.
... Here are examples of some control settings. I'm sure there
are other things publishers want to control and users want to
control.
... Theoretically-speaking we could enable all controls on both
sides, but by doing so usability will decrease rather than
increase.
... If the user understands what they are changing, then it's
ok. But if not then usability is reduced.
... There are some cases where contents are intended for
vertical layout, and the user changed to horizontal layout, and
didn't like the way it looked and complained.
... Users are kinder than you think. They gave us lot of
advice.
... They continue to give us lots of advice, or, complain to
us.
... It's difficult for us to turn around and say it's your
settings, it's your fault.
... So we try to make it safer.
... As a result, we create terminals and we tend to get
opinions that say our terminals are very boring. We cannot set
anything, we cannot customize, they are very boring
machines.
... There's another major issue that is display by different
viewers.
... As I've been explaining, we create the format and
distribute the format and manufacture terminals as well.
... It's an old business model.
... In our business if the customer complains, then we take
responsibility.
... Now, as a result of standardization format, the format
became free.
... Anyone can create content and distribution, and I think
that's a very welcome change.
... I think there'll be some challeng eas we discussed in the
morning session.
... Ok, we have standardized format, but there'll be variations
in implementation.
... because of differing interpretation of the format by
different vendors.
... The classic example is the different viewing experience
problem with the web browsers, which is not entirely
resolved.
... People create contents base don the stnadard, but when
displayed in one web browser looks ok but displayed in another
browser doesn't work
... We are starting to see similar problems again with
different terminals.
... As for mobile phones, especially for Android, we already
have WebKit and that's a de-facto standard.
... So we have expectations that this WebKit will create
standards for e-publishing.
... I actually spoke about HTML input function, and we are
faced with problem that if we use this function, even on the
same smartphone terminals the view looks slightly
different.
s/terminals/terminals category/
Hanada: This is due to sometimes
different versions of webKit, and sometimes vendors have
altered WebKit
... Technology advancing is a good thing, but at the same time
we always continue to have terminals that are old and cannot be
updated anymore
... when these different versions exist we will continually
face the problem of making things look the same in different
terminals.
... This is one of the reasons why we cannot advertise more the
HTML input function.
... This function is mostly ok, but for ebooks where exact
reproduction is important, it's not adequate.
... That's why we aren't marketing this, we want to market it
in a more controllable size and scale.
... .. exaclty reproduce wha twe were doing in paper, ..
electronic is electronic so it can be different
... SO about this point I would like to hear your opinions
too.
... This brings me to the end of this presentation.
s/SO/So/
jdaggett: My name is John Daggett
from Mozilla.
... You said there were some issues with the display of fonts,
what exactly were the issues.
Hanada: I think you're probably
talking about when I mentioned there is only limited numbers of
fonts that can be installed in mobile phones.
... I say this is a problem because every time a private
character comes in it creates a bitmap. It would be best to use
a real font, but because of the limitaitons of the mobile phone
we haven't arrived at that yet.
Ashimura: My quesiton not
directly related to layout, my question is related to copyright
issues.
... When we deal with comics, also can be text materials, but
particularly comics.
... Youre technology can change dynamically the presentation of
the content, setting vibrations, turning ruby on and off.
... I'm wondering if changing such things is a problem for
copyright.
Hanada: Apart from the legal
issues, I'm not sure of the legal issues, but frankly if we had
such effects as we explain, the publishers will tell us
off.
... We ask the publisher and display per their instructions. We
never change anything.
... this isn't a quesiton of what is good or bad, and
environment will change in the future.
... Google started audio reading of the text, and it was very
controversial and they had to stop it
... ...
... Thank you very much. We are out of time. If you have
further questions, come to the secreteriat and ask the question
through the secretariat
<br duration="10m">
<glazou> hello !
RRSAgent: pointer
<glazou> everything ok in Kyoto ?
glazou: afaict, yep
... minutes up there *points*
... we're on break for 10m
<glazou> ok
<glazou> beginning of day here
^_^
<r12a> wow! how do you do that ?
<glazou> do what ?
<glazou> not here
<glazou> yep
<glazou> what's your irc client ?
<r12a> colloquy
<glazou> hmm
<glazou> me too but I get the usual smiley
<r12a> hmm, interesting
<glazou> could depend on the theme you use
<glazou> Preferences > Appearance
<glazou> aaah wait I don't have last version
<glazou> you have probably 2.3
<glazou> let me upgrade right now :-)
<glazou> back in 2.3
<glazou> test :-)
<glazou> nothing :-)
<r12a> nothing for ^_^ either ?
<glazou> hmmm
<glazou> retest
<glazou> :)
<glazou> sigh
<glazou> aaaaah
<glazou> it's the emoticons "standard" style
<glazou> I was in iChat style
<r12a> yep, standard
<glazou> yeah I see a girl's face
<r12a> heh
<glazou> ;-)
<r12a> ;-)
<glazou> so emoticons in Colloquy have gender ? :-D
</br>
<dbaron> Taichi Kawabata (川幡 太一), NTT Corp.
<dbaron> s/Kawabata/KAWABATA/
Kawabata: Because of my
involvement in standardization process for IVD, I've been
invited to speak here.
... I'm going to explain character and font-related topics that
may affect standardization of CSS3.
... Let me apologize because I prepared my presentation for 1
hour, but since we have simult translation I might run out of
time.
... Let me explain current status of private characters in
fonts.
Slide: Unicode does not encode idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private-use characters nor logos nor graphics.
Unicode reserves 6400 codepoints in BMP for private-use, and also another 130000 are available outside BMP
Slide: Private Characters
Logos, emoticons, etc.
<dbaron> "Note, however, that the Unicode Standard does not encode idiosyncratic, personal, novel, or private-use characters, nor does it encode logos or graphics. Graphologies unrelated to text, such as dance notations, are likewise outside the scope of the Unicode Standard. Font variants are explicitly not encoded. The Unicode Standard reserves 6,400 code points in the BMP for private use, which may be used to assign codes to characters not included in the repertoire
<dbaron> of the Unicode Standard. Another 131,068 private-use code points are available outside the BMP, should 6,400 prove insufficient for particular applications." (Unicode, 1.1)
Kawabata: In books, special
symbols are sometimes used to convey the complex or abstract
idea in a simpler manner.
... Also emoticons used in Japanese mobile phones are not
encoded yet.
<dbaron> [image of book of john in Greek, with lots of annotations]
Kawabata: Regarding Kanji
characters, already 75,000+ are encoded under the Unification
rules
... However if you look at dictionaries or some scientific
papers, there are still more that are not yet encoded.
... There are reasons for those characters not to be encoded,
e.g.
* misdescribed
* invented
* (very) local
* historic/short-lived
Kawabata: Kanji characters are
often invented. If invented by a famous author they might be
encoded, but are otherwise not encoded.
... Here is a book from late 19th century. The government in
Japan issued a dictionary with vocabulary of new introduced
legal terminology
... They introduced several hundred new kanji for those
vocabulary
... However those new introduced characters have never been
used.
... In other cases we have other characters not in use
... Regarding private characters, there have been discussions
of how to render those characters in HTML.
... Based on discussions we have this week, there are five
issues.
... These are the classifications of those five emthods to
render private characters. Each has different profiles, whether
they have ? or not, whether they are searchable or not, how
many available, etc.
... In order to utilize private character, must think about
font format for private characters.
... With HTML and CSS3 you can include the font files
... There are three formats which can be implemented or
embedded into HTML.
... OpenType, WOFF, SVG
... Each font format has pros and cons.
... OpenType is most popular, but has large size.
... WOFF has smaller size, tailored for Web use
... The SVG is different to other types. You can convert SVG
into a font.
... SVG is different in that it's possible to use gradation,
color, animation.
... Also SVG font can be embedded into HTML and can also
inherit CSS
... However the SVG is not supported by all browsers
... And EPUB ??
... When it comes to how to render those private characters,
I'm going to show you a solution.
<dbaron> slide shows http://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u26f97
Kawabata: What I'd like to show
you is the glyphwiki project.
... Everyone can register his or her own characters.
... Once you create a new page and put that glyph, then the
font will be automatically created from the glyph
... Nearly 100,000 characters are registered
... And base don this, about 1 month ago Hanazon-Mincho, a new
font became available
... This is only one free font that can .. all UCS/AJ1
ideographs
<dbaron> s/Hanazon-Mincho/Hanazono-Mincho/
Kawabata: This one on the right
is the glyph created for UCS
... With private characters ther eis a challenge of how to deal
with vertical layout
... When it comes to vertical layout, whether you rotate the
charater or you rearrange vertically based on ... gsub
... When text-orientation is vertical-right, set characters
upright (using vertical font settings ) unles sotherwise
specified above.
... In OpenType (quoting from spec here) ...
... Now go over IVS and font selection
... IVS stands for Ideographic Variation Selector
<r12a> s/Selector/Sequence/
Kawabata: IVS enables to display ideographic variance by ...
<r12a> s/Sequence/Selector/
Kawabata: In the past Unicode
only specifies the abstract character, however IVS can specify
concrete glyphs
... In order to use IVS you need to register IVS into IVD
... Regarding the way to register IVD, that is specified UTS
37
... If a registrant wants to register a variant into a
registrar, which is currently the Unicode Consortium, first you
need to register your collection
... Once you register collection, then you can register glyphs
... as many times as you wish
... ...
... In the IVD_Collections.txt, ... register into
IVD_Sequences.txt
... Currently two colections are registered: Adobe-Japan1 and
Hanyo-Denshi
<r12a> s/Selector/Sequence/
Kawabata: These tow collections
are implemented in some fonts
... However these two collections do not match always
necessarily
<dbaron> shows image from http://d.hatena.ne.jp/NAOI/20100406/1270550459
Kawabata: This is one example
where the collections don't match
... I've taken this information from ?'s website
... Blue boxes are from AJ1 and red one are from
Hanyo-Denshi
... This is one specific chinese character. As you see, some of
them match, but they don't always match
... How are people using an IVS? There are two main
usages
... One usage could to show a archaic style
... Another purpose for IVS is to correctly display proper
names
... Let me explain using an example.
... For example if you have this kind of older text
... And if you apply an IVS, you can make a little bit more
traditional
... So if you compare the characters you can see
differences
... If you have a font that supports the IVSes, you can convert
the document into a classical look
... Here's an example where IVS is used for proper names
... These for example are all different names using Chinese
characters that can be pronounced the same
... But if you look at the chinese characters, they are a
little bit different.
... ... small differences in a person's name
... Another case for example, Katsudaku City and Katsudaku Ward
(sp?)
... Although pronounced the same, their Chinese characters are
different.
... If you press delete key to delete the IVS (in emacs) then
you see the character conert
Kawabat: Now a different topic, CSS has the font-matching algorithm.
Kawabata: For example if you specify 3 fonts in font-family value
Side: font-family: font-A, font-B, font-C
Kawabata: And you have a sequence like this
Slide: C1 C2 C3 C4 C55
Kawabata: The best font will be
picked in the font-family in thes order
... Here there are two different text decorations.
... One decoration is done by CSS, for example converting this
character into bold face
... Other time if you use IVS you can convert same characters
into it svariant.
s/it sv/its v/
Kawabata: If you want to show the
character that is not supported by IVS, you have to go through
font fallback
... By combining CSS and IVS can you make it boldface for
variant, or does it change the character?
... IVS and font-selections, there are various arguments.
... Now I'm going to go into a technical deep discussion.
Slide:
font-family: font-A, font-B, font-C;
font-A supports only base characters
font-B supports IVCx
font-C supports IVCy
Consider sequence
C1 IVSx (∈IVCx) IVSy (∈IVCy) Cy
Kawabata: In which font family
should the ... render in the web browser?
... Option A is to render all those characters using the base
characters
... Option 2 is to prioritize characters which are specified in
the IVSx or IVSy
... These two options have pros and cons
s/2/B/
Option A:
Pro - whole text has a consistent font-fmaily
Con - multiple IVC fonts can not be supported
Option B
Pro - each IVS will be rendered with a supporting font
Con - Text may be displayed in inconsistent font
Kawabata: If you choose option 1, it is difficult for user to display each IVS , font family must be specified in eac IVS
<r12a> s/C1 IVSx (3IVCx) IVSy (3IVCy) Cy/C1 IVSx (∈IVCx) IVSy (∈IVCy) Cy/
Kawabata: Under option B, it is easy for user to dsiplay only base character -- just remove VS characters
<Bert> Kawabata: [explains NFD/NFC/NFKC/NFKD normalization]
Kawabata: Once you have
normalization, then you can compare character strings
... Especially for CSS and HTML, the name of class ...
... And actually normalization has some challenges
... For example, implementation is very combersome, especially
NFC
... Actually tried to implement NFC, but I have difficult time
to do that.
... Another issue for normalization is the singleton
decomposition
... This means different characters sometimes folded to the
same character
... For example, Angstrom (U+212B / JIS X 0208) normalizes to A
with ring above (U+00C5 / ISO8859-1 )
... Another issue with normalization is compatibility
ideographs
... All compatibility ideographs will be transforme dto
corresponding unified ideographs
... Apple in HFS file, they do not normalize compability
ideographs
... 10 years ago Apple proposed to Unicode to exclude the
compatibility characters
... However this proposal was not accepted
... Ideographs are unified by unification rules specified in
ISO/IEC 10646 Annex S
... However there are some exceptions.
... Before 1992, there were some separately encoded
e.g. U+98F2 and U+98EE
Kawabata: These two are different
characters meaning the same thing. But they were encoded before
1992, that's why they are separated
... ...
... Japanese Compatibility ideographs include name ideographs,
shown in the bottom of the slide
Kawabata's slide shows characters that are variants of each other -- on is a compatibility ideograph
Kawabata: Another issue is when
and where normalization should be implemented.
... In 2005 draft version of charmod 1.0
... Early Unicode Normalization was suggested
... It was suggested to put this in HTML
... But if you implement this, we might lose the specific
Chinese characters, e.g. for a person's name.
... Such an issue understood by many people
<r12a> http://rishida.net/scripts/uniview/?charlist=%E9%A3%B2%E9%A3%AE click on characters to see large
Kawabata: I personally hope that
EUN will not be adopted for HTML
... But I'm not against all normalization for HTML
... I suggest normalization for ID, class, and URL for
example
... But this is an example from XML appendix J
... Many types of values can be normalized
... Given difficulty of implementation, e.g. NFC, it's not a
good idea to normalize those values like ? attribute
... My personal opinion is that for web browsers, NFKC is more
useful
... By having this normalization, you can search single-byte
katakan by using double-byte katakana
... Or even you can search .. characters by separating
characters
(example of searching Liter ligature with Liter)
Kawabata: ... for example you
can't search old Kanji charaters by using newer Chinese
characters
... So we need a new method to make searching for old and new
characters
... Ok, that is my end of presentation.
... Thank you very much.
jdaggett: You showed a slide that
was very complicaed
... That used IVSx IVSy
... This is not a problem that any author should ever have to
deal with.
... This is a problem because of the way the Hanyo-Denshi was
registered.
... You have two selectors that specify the same glyph
... And you have fonts that support only the Hanyo-Denshi
selectors and not the AJ1 selectors.
... There is *no reason* the author should *ever* have to
insert two selectors because there's a problem in the
font.
... Also a problem for implementers. I just want to ask the
font if it has the right glyph and get the right answer.
<dbaron> (AJ1 == Adobe-Japan1)
Kawabata: Idea of 37 was that different groups want their own collection, their own set of variatns. So there's a concept of collections.
jdaggett: For the same glyph, why do you need two selectors.
Kawabata: It's very difficult to see if the glyphs are really the same or different
jdaggett: But it's very hard for authors, too.
Kawabata argues that it's a lot of work to check if the glyphs are the same or different
Nat: I would never support all
these different collections. As a developer I will only pick
one, and I'll pick the one that's easiest to support.
... It's not easy for me to have knowledge of your
database.
... my renderer should have no need to understand you
rdatabase
... And content creators should need to have even less
understanding of your database
... If you don't do this, then font fallback will fail, and you
run into all kinds of problems.
... And it ties to the politics of the font vendor and the
registrant, and all of those issues are being foisted on the
content creators.
jdaggett: This feels a lot like going back to encoding problems of the 80s in Japan, where Hitachi has their own vendor codes and Fujitsu has their own vendor codes, where if Fujitsu made it then Hitachi can't support it.
Nat: The compatibility characters
are an obsolete way of handling the same problem that IVS
solves much more elegantly.
... I'm very confused by the normalization discussion, because
normalization is by nature something that is a lossy
converion.
... Why do they think that they're losing something?
... If you're destroying data by normalizing, then that's a
bug.
Kawabata: Normalized data should be used only for comparison, not for circulation. That makes for data loss.
Yamamoto from Adobe: I agree with the last part of what ? said, normalization itself has no bad thing, but how to use it needs careful attention. If there is misuse or abuse of normalization it's wrong.
Yamamoto: I agree that IVS is a
better approach and we should use it.
... For this reason, compatibility characters should only be
used for guaranteeing round-tripping with a particular national
standard. Other usage is strongly discouraged.
... Two points that Nat mentioned: wrt compatibility
characters, he told the history and value
... On the other hand the stnadard 10646 for this reason
compatibility characters should only be used for guaranteeing
rount-tripping
... ... multiple IVSes from multiple IVCs, tries to keep ..
where one single IVD collection completely works, but even if
there are other collections he doesn't seme to care about the
interoperability of multiple IVSes from multiple IVD
collections.
... Similarly he is trying to keep this closed world where
compatibility ideographs are perpetually represented by ?
systems
... There is always the other world of Unicode where we have
attached importance to keep the interoperability of text
communication worldwide.
Kawabata: let me share my
thoughts on those issues
... One comment wrt compat characters, he said that I am
focusing on the round trip and that's only in closed word, not
open to outside world, that's his comment.
... Well I myself, Unicode is one big platform where text
communication is conducted
... Therefore within this big platform that's also contain the
regional standard, therefore text communication is possible
based on regional standard as well
... And therefore by using Unicode as a ? ppl communicated by
using regional standard or subset by agreeing each other
themselves (?)
... So well what I'm thinking is that we should not do
something .. of those ppl who already have text communication
based on regional standard subset.
... Another point wrt IVD , it's been pointed that characters
registered in different collections that would be costly.
... Now we only two collections, but looking ahead there might
be various people who want to register their collecitons for
specific usage.
... Of course ther's an argumen that if you have the same wrods
registered in different colleciton they must be unified
... Our concern is that .. people who want to register a new
colleciton must search all the existing collections
Yamamoto: There are IVD
collections by national Japanese, others for local
governments.. similar situations.
... The registrant's intention doesn't matter. look at the
glyphs. If they look shareable, after some research, maybe we
can agree that a pair of glyphs can be shared, then those
glyphs should be shared.
[bunch of discussion in Japanese]
?: I've received requests from Buddhist texts for example, so I can't say that we should unify the whole collections.
<br duration="7m">
i/Nat McCully (Adobe)/ScribeNicK: fantasai/
RRSAgent: make minutes
<r12a> ok, i'll dial in
RRSAgent: make logs public
Ashimura: ...
... W3C is an industry consortium created by Tim
Berners-Lee
... W3C has 3 hosts: MIT, ERCIM, Keio University
... One Web! That means global, accessible, implementable.
nmccully: Natasha Indik <tindik@Princeton.EDU>
er
Natasha Indik <tindik@Princeton.EDU>
http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-css-minutes.html
THere we go
s/Natasha Indik <tindik@Princeton.EDU>//g;
Ashimura gives an intro to W3C
Ashimura: Feedback from Tokyo
Forum
... e-standards is complicated and controversial
... We need to start with actual use cases, I think
... In Tokyo we asked e-Publishing stakeholders for
requirements and use cases
... The theme of the session in Tokyo was, What is needed for
Japanese text layout on Web browsers and e-Books
... Each panelist introduced their own products and services.
The process of their products and services were
discussed.
... Discussed what was needed, what do we want to do using Web
technology?
... Feedback from browser vendors, for example Access, the
Japanese vendor,
... EPUB(HTMl+CSS) is a platform for publishing
... Current latest specs already let us use a certain level of
epub documents with Japanese layout.
... However there is no free stable implementation for the
latest specs
... So they are making an implementation based on WebKit and
Google Chrome source code
... But it has some issues, especially wrt Ruby and so on
... Next, from signage viewpoint, this viewpoint was provided
by [Kata?]san, Newphoria
... Very big fonts are needed for advertizing etc.
... Restriction based on hardware: number of characters,
resolution, display size, etc.
... Difficulty of Japanese text layout on big display is
difficult,
... e.g. 12 displays concatenated as a huge display
... That kind of concatenation or linkage between displays is
important
... From Web designing viewpoint, including various text
provided by customers
... It's very difficult to justify the start/end point of
characters nicely
... Sankei Digital ^
... Actual style depends on device resolution
... Toppan generates magazines, novels, picture books,
dictionaries
... They have issues with quality of text layout and
fonts.
... They said they would like even more beautify layout
<kojiishi> Ashimura san's slides available at http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/0601-web-and-japanese-layout-ka/
Ashimura: Feedback from Audience
Slide:
* Important to consider spacing, inter-character/inter-line
* Ruby for pairs of kanji (jukugo) is important
* Dealing with text layout space is important
* stronger collaboration with SVG would be useful, e.g. SVG fonts and animation
Ashimura: Today we're holding a dedicated forum on CSS
Ashimura shows a flowchart
Start box is JP, China, Korea, Taiwan, etc. Points with 'Use Cases & Requirements" to box labelled "This Forum"
"This Forum" branches into CSSWG, SVGWG, HTMLWG, I18NWG
"Japanese Layout Task Force" stretches across all of them and generates "Requirements for Japanese Text Layout", which feeds back into those WGs
The WG's each generate specs
CSSWG -> CSS specs, etc.
<r12a> diagram is here: http://www.w3.org/2011/Talks/0601-web-and-japanese-layout-ka/#[15]
Ashimura: Next steps should be
bringing these requirements and the JLREQ requirements into
working groups, including CSSWG
... They will discuss how to implement (or not implement) those
requirements.
Ashimura shows slide "Please join W3C!"
and encourages participation
Ashimura: I'd like to ask you all about this main theme: what is needed for Japanese Text Layout for the Web and e-Books?
[Commenting on slides in Japanese]
Tada: I haven't organized my
thoughts yet, but looking at morning sessions especially
Access's presentation
... I thought some of those layouts would be useful for
signage
... Tada: ... larger fonts and display could be used for other
purposes, and wondeirng if CSS can be used .
... We are creating engines, can we use them for other
effects.
... For CSS, can we set up standards in a way that are
extendable so that it can be used for various purposes
... We were showing that presentation wondering if that could
be used for other purposes
actually, I'm not sure who that was that was being translated
Maybe it was someone else..
Ashimura: Question for the
audience: We received an opinion from Ichijo of Sankei that
it's very difficult to display Japanese fonts in a ? way
... So I think this question covers the issue of fonts, and
also issues wrt spacing
... And I have English on the side, maybe this because I'm not
English speaker, but for some reason this English looks better
to me
... From native English speaker's POV, can't tell if English
looks better than the Japanese
Nat: Neither is good.
<Bert> (I think that "someone" from above introduced himself as Yamamoto (sp?) from Alliance.)
Nat: In the case of Roman
composition, unless it's a very fine composition.. in this
resolution it looks ok.
... For example, the end ... are not using proper
ellipsis
... On the Japanese, the brackets and dots are not good at
all.
Ashimura: The reason I ask this
question to Nat-san, is Ichijo-san says Japanese layout does
not look good.
... Sounds like English native-speaker's POV this doesn't look
good either.
... It's an issue of making things look good on the Web.
Yamamoto says a lot of stuff.
Yamamoto: Even in Japanese, large headers or and advertisement, you usually use hand-kerning or proportional spacing (OpenType)
fantasai: Japanese needs measures
that are a multiple of an em, otherwise justification results
in very loose lines
... For CSS, that might mean being able to make the the width
snap to a multiple of some length.
Nat: That reminds me of something
I said in the Tokyo forum.
... [Something] is not as important as [something else]
<dbaron> Nat: the placement of ... is not as important as the placement of the lines within the frame
Nat: In InDesign, the Japanese
grid helps with the width of the line
... If you use a frame grid, which is what we call the Japanese
grid, to create the frame for the text
... Then you will have an even number of ems
... However inside the text, there will be times when you have
text that doesn't exactly fit inside the grid.
... And then you need to adjust the spacing.
... When we did research early-on in InDesign's development
cycle
... We found that in Chinese text, there was a desire to return
the grid as soon as possible as soon as you had got off the
grid.
... For example, if there was Chinese text then roman text then
Chinese text, you would make spacing decisions to return to the
grid as soon as possible.
... We found that in the early phototypesetting systems in
Japan, we found that there were some house rules or conventions
whereby they would have within the last few characters they
would be on the grid
... However, most of the users thought that that made it look
like very old 1960s-style publication
... However, my personal opinion was, I was very excited to
hear this and wanted to make this happen in InDesign
... But I'm the only one. :)
... Instead what we did was, we decided the adjustment in the
line between the two edges of the line would follow a more
sophisticated spacing rule
... And it should be the same whether or not there was a
grid.
... Therefore the grid in InDesign is used mostly to position
the y-position of the line
<r12a> s/defined in CSS/defined in CSS3/
Yamamoto: The role of the gird is
to specify the lenght of the line and also the inter-line
space
... What happens within the line is a separate
discussion.
... For example if we have 32 characters per line
... We might have Japanese proportional setting to set the
alignment
... But you can still revert to no spacing.
... As long as you revert the proportional setting, you can go
back to solid setting
... When you specify proportional, each character has its own
width. Uses font's alternate metrics
... So Japanese characters look like Roman characters. But even
in that case we should use em-based grid to define the line
lenght so that we can restore the original solid,
non-proportional setting of the type group.
Ashimura: Now I'd like to ask your opinion. Nat discussed this from Adobe point of view. Now I'd like to ask web browser point of view
jdaggett: I'm not as
knowledgeable as Nat, so I can't answer your question in a very
knowledgeable way. But one thing
... In conventional Web browser technologies, we don't really
use OpenType data.
... We use WebKit because we like to display things
quickly.
... But not good for quality
szilles: There's a number of
cases where the quality of typography we see on the screen is
perfectly adequate for that use case.
... But there are also use cases, particularly in advertising,
where the quality of the image being projected is
important
... So the average user is not required to specify in great
detail the typographic constraints
... But the controls are there that someone looking for higher
quality typography can get that by specifying additional
properties
Iksei: I've been involved in Web and printing for many years
Ikusei: Is it possible to have shashoku and shaken apart from CSS or in addition to CSS?
<r12a> what are shaken and sashoku ?
some discussion that doesn't really make sense without any context
Ashimura: There are activities that use XML and ? to use things that are similar quality as paper printing
Nat: In talking about something
other than CSS, it's useful to make the distinction between the
rendering technology and the market that technology
consumes
... For example we have quite a nice text engine in Flash
Player
... Flash Player uses something totally different from CSS and
HTML.
... You can tell it to render text and animate it with
ActionScript
... The mojikumi in that string can be controlled much more
precisely than with HTML and CSS
... However, the point of evolving the standard, CSS and HTML,
to improve their support for this kind of high-end typography
is so that everyone can make use of it in more open
technologies like the various browsers.
... So, as to your question, I assume that you're talking about
the rendering side rather than the markup side.
Ashimura: Unfortunately we have to close the session. I recommend that you come and join W3C directly to continue the conversation.
<r12a> elika, how many people in the room ?
4*7*3+~7
About 110?
<r12a> wow
Closing remarks.
<myakura> r12a, iirc shashoku means phototypesetting and Shaken is a shashoku system vendor
3 per table, 28 tables
plus some standing
<r12a> doumo arigatou, myakura-san
or in the front
<dbaron> but a bunch of empty seats too
oh, they're all behind *you*
yeah, about 100
Koji: Using this forum as a starting point, we would like ot have more opportunities to learn from you
Forum closed.
<r12a> thanks for the panorama
<r12a> hello to all
<r12a> wishing i was there !
<r12a> dbaron, i just turned my video on
<dbaron> r12a, ah
<dbaron> anyway, 'later
RRSAgent: make minutes
RRSAgent: make minutes
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.136 of Date: 2011/05/12 12:01:43 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/numerals/numbers/ FAILED: s/futher/further/ FAILED: s/?and Forestry/Agriculture and Forestry/ Succeeded: s/also/only/ FAILED: s/role/business model/ FAILED: s/mtns/ments/ Succeeded: s/???/issue/ FAILED: s/terminals/terminals category/ FAILED: s/SO/So/ FAILED: s/Kawabata/KAWABATA/ FAILED: s/Hanazon-Mincho/Hanazono-Mincho/ FAILED: s/Selector/Sequence/ FAILED: s/Sequence/Selector/ FAILED: s/Selector/Sequence/ FAILED: s/it sv/its v/ Succeeded: s/3IVC/∈IVC/g FAILED: s/2/B/ FAILED: s/C1 IVSx (3IVCx) IVSy (3IVCy) Cy/C1 IVSx (∈IVCx) IVSy (∈IVCy) Cy/ FAILED: i/Nat McCully (Adobe)/ScribeNicK: fantasai WARNING: Bad s/// command: s/Natasha Indik <tindik@Princeton.EDU>//g; FAILED: s/defined in CSS/defined in CSS3/ No ScribeNick specified. Guessing ScribeNick: fantasai Inferring Scribes: fantasai WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Ashimura Bert Hagimura Hanada Iksei Ikusei Kawabat Kawabata Koj Koji Macnmm Mitsubishi Ms2ger Nat Side Slide SteveZ2 Tada Yamabe Yamamoto alexmog dbaron fantasai font-family futhark glazou glazou_ jdaggett kojiishi mg murakami myakura nmccully plinss r12a sylvaing szilles vhardy You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy WARNING: No meeting chair found! You should specify the meeting chair like this: <dbooth> Chair: dbooth Got date from IRC log name: 01 Jun 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/06/01-css-minutes.html People with action items: WARNING: Input appears to use implicit continuation lines. You may need the "-implicitContinuations" option.[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]