Shawn: We looked at some new
wording that we quickly skimmed last week. I hope we all looked
this week in more detail. We want to talk about the images.
Looking for volunteer to do the alt text for these complex
... Is anyone not able to get to the slides. Shall we talk about the metaphor investment?
... Let's look first at the changes I have made to the chart.
<clifftyllick> Off current topic: I'll volunteer to create a button with tooltip for slide 15.
Shawn: previously the chart had
legend across bottom and top and looked more like a formal
chart. Now it is simpler and makes it more conceptual, a
general illustration rather than a presentation of specific
... and 22 adds different lines for return.
... the attempt was to make very clear that it is general.
Char: Might be nice to have a vertical line to the right of money with an arrow showing increase. Horizontal line showing time increasing to the right.
Shawn: Those who weren't in previous discussion, there was concern about the fact of presenting in a graph format that may give a mistaken impression of being based on real data.
Ian: My reaction is what is the
significance of the big arrow? What does it signify?
... doesn't look like it is pointing to anything specific.
Wayne: I wondered the same.
Helle: Yes, also if you have the two lines for time and money and move the big arrow so it's not pointing to a place on the line.
Cliff: I was taking it to be the spike in investment.
Shawn: It's not to be related to a particular point in time.
Helle: Maybe in the middle?
... if it was more like on the top and more general rather than pointing to the line. If you do this you decrease investment, but not point to a place on the line.
Cliff: Could point at an angle to
... and I agree that it's a good idea to add multiple lines to investment. If you have a well-structured site to begin with, your additional investment will be modest.
... maybe three progressive scenarios with three reveals.
Shawn: other thoughts?
Helle: I think we need to see that. For me this is quite a lot to understand graphically. A complex concept. Would you put that all in one slide?
Cliff: Yes, start with those who
have standards in place, the relatively small investment that
goes down over time. Then another case where there are a few
more problems with the site or the training of developers.
Larger hump but goes down over time.
... finally we would have the extreme case where there is a large investment needed, but that over time, it reaches the same point as the others.
Helle: I can follow that thought but I am concerned about the graphic representation. I will have to see the slide.
Wayne: Generally I think just one curve is OK while I understand Cliff's point. The shape of the curve is so typical that this is the one message to get across: you will have one initial cost that will go down over time. I can move either way.
Jennifer: A compromise may be to leave the slide as it is but put something in the speaker notes that makes the distinction between the scenarios. It will get the concept across without complicating the visuals.
Cliff: Yes, customize the message depending on the audience and point up that we have left dollar amounts off the graph.
Wayne: That's what I was thinking to let people know there is great variability.
Shawn: We have some information about depending on your situation and could be expanded. But we could leave just one line to be simple and clear on the message for 20 and 21 and think about more detail in 22.
Cliff: A couple of bullets would appear rather than the big arrow. Highlight those two points, some up front costs, arrow pointing to the spike. Less expense over time with arrow pointing there.
Shawn: to emphasize points that
speaker is making.
... any more comments on 19, 20 and 21?
... Let's look at 22 where we talk about the return.
<hbj> I like the last suggestion
Cecilia: Will we still leave these multiple lines or just have one?
Shawn: Originally we had one big line to show great return, people thought that was not realistic. So the question was how to show the multiple returns?
Cecilia: I find it a bit
confusing. Same color, what they signify?
... if we do just one, maintain it somewhere in the middle. How much offset from the investment do we want to make the return?
Shawn: The question is does it feel OK to tweak and work with or not work at all?
Ian: I would go with just one line, the sudden increase should be a bit flatter.
Helle: I think I have gotten confused again when you described all these lines. Are we saying there are four different returns?
Shawn: Different aspects will have different rates of return. If we have more than one, we would need more than one investment.
Helle: I agree with one line.
<sinarmaya> On return, I would add the concept of "social responsibility" and in that sense the generation or increase in terms of corporate social responsibility.
Cliff: Let me make a pitch for two lines. One where you do not depend on ecommerce and one that reflects a greater dependence on ecommerce.
Ian: The possibility there is that we give the impression that accessibility is more important if you do ecommerce. I am not comfortable with that.
Liam: I am not very comfortable
with the graph because I would expect to be challenged on it.
Where does the data come from? In terms of illustration of the
point of initial investment/long-tem return, I am not sure that
this does it. We may set ourselves up for a challenge.
... could be a straight line and very simple curve.
Shawn: What can we do to make it look like a decorative illustration rather than a data chart.
Sandi: Apart from a graphic illustration that does not work well for many. Apart form that we are taking something that is very complex and trying to make a simple illustration and it doesn't work well. In my opinion if someone scans and pays attention to the visuals, it is taking it to such a high level that it weakens the message.
Shawn: Isn't the message that investment over time leads to returns.
Sandi: But there are so many variables, that a simple chart like this ignores the variables and weakens the message.
Shawn: The purpose is to have a clear, short presentation that allows for customization. I think e all agree with the main point that an initial investment that decreases over time yields real returns. And the sub-point is that investment decreases over time.
Wayne: I have some data about how costs decreased but I have no return on investment data. We will give this to people who have a clear idea of what they mean by ROI and we will be challenged.
Shawn: Liam, you said you be uncomfortable with the ROI but are you comfortable with the investment part?
Liam: yes, 20 and 21 are alright but 22 should be flatter, gentler curve.
Cliff: The ROI concept brings up two points. It does point to more return with an ecommerce site.
Shawn: Is it something short, easy to describe, can we point to it, and is it broadly applicable?
Cliff: I want to show that there are specific real returns. For example I think the Legal and General case is relevant and points to the ways that SEO are improved and become more effective at getting the word out and you make more money. Any illustration that makes those points is important.
Ian: Even if there is an increase in SEO that is not the point. The number of people who began the process did not increase, but the number of people who completed it did increase. Not really related to SEO.
Shawn: Let's take a tangent. In
our L&G case study, do we point to that slide set, do we
... Ian will you be willing to review our L&G case study to see if that is included and/or if it should be added?
<shawn> ACTION: Ian check our L&G case study and see if we want to point to that slide (in e-mail) &/or add the point to our business case ? [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/15-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shawn: So we need to also include the idea that even if you aren't selling things, increase will raise awareness, get the word out for mission driven and/or dot gov sites as well.
Cliff: People are going to be looking for reasons to say no. If we don't really bring home the point that you will make more money from an increased completion rate, we miss an opportunity.
Ian: In the speaker notes, perhaps
Shawn: So in speaker notes, add idea that if talking to ecommerce, talk dollars. NGOs emphasize mission driven work, donations
Jennifer: Completion rate is important to all.
Wayne: Completion rate is a big deal to ecommerce. Also reduce costs in other ways. Reduce phone calls.
Liam: Commercial businesses don't necessarily have ecommerce sites but need attention to their products nevertheless
Shawn: if we are willing to
expand it for more examples, the direct cost savings from call
centers can be there. Now let's think about other
... like the tree
... any comments on tree metaphor or others such as the foundation of a building, etc
... we are in brainstorming mode.
Liam: an inconvenient store where
things are on very high shelves.
... Gary Larson.
Shawn: Can you get permission to use the image?
Wayne: I like d the tree, since I
like trees and I think it is a good metaphor. If a tree takes to
long, it can be a tomato plant.
... or asparagus
Cliff: We will be talking to those who have a website, and will be talking about making it more productive.
Jennifer: Grapevines and how they mature like a fiiine wiiine
Shawn: Building from the base up - the idea that you do this thing at the base, foundational to what you do for a strong building.
Sharron: I was trying with the tree to get completely away from data.
<IanPouncey> Sharon: The first person to bring up problems with using graphs was Karl, and he hasn't been on a call since - I think we've addressed some of those problems.
Cecilia: I am looking at visualization examples - and have found an example of idealized ROI for investment of web2.0
<ceciliafarell> sample ROI visual at http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hinchcliffe/determining-the-roi-of-enterprise-20/334
Ian: The idealized graphs, I like the way it identifies value rather than money.
Shawn: Thoughts on that.
Wayne: We can really get the realistic point across that costs absolutely level out.
Jennifer: Can we make it different enough that there is not a conflict?
Cliff: Borrow the word idealized
Cecilia: or the word model
Jennifer: Might the word model help us get away from the challenge of where's your data?
Shawn: Yes would help position
it. If we completely reposition the text and the graphics that
it becomes entirely an illustration and not a data
... so let's retain the idea of a possibility of another metaphor but keep working on the charts making it more illustrative. is that a good conclusion for now?
Jennifer: works for me.
Wayne: If the investment line
could be simplified, it should flatline and decrease below
where you began.
... you will have a better, maintainable site that costs less to keep going.
Shawn: But what about changing standards, retraining staff, etc?
Cliff: There will be some up ticks, but Wayne;s right, it will end up lower than the original.
Shawn: Let's look at what we know about L&G. Return increased immediately, it continued to go up, finally doe it flatline?
Ian: Depends on what we are
trying to encourage.
... if people take it as face value, could be disappointed.
Wayne: Do you know of any cases where there is not a spike? I guess if the site is already web standards compliant there may be less of an improvement originally. Incremental change will also bring returns.
Shawn: You will probably have little return originally while you are ramping up, training people and putting process in place, yes?
Liam: It depends.
Shawn: Let's look at text in notes of 20,21, 22. Detailed level is fine, get picky.
Helle: It is hard to comment when we may be changing the look of the slides. Do we think what is here adequately addresses the visual changes?
Ian: On a few of the slides there is mention of investment in development tools. What tools are we thinking of there?
Shawn: LMS, CMS
Ian: I don't think of those as
... they are maintenance but not development
<IanPouncey> Sorry, phone disconnected, will dial back in
Shawn: Let's say I am using a CMS that does not support accessibility?
Char: I can give you about 40 tools that are used to create online Help and such.
Shawn: So if you are working in Char's world you may need to upgrade
Wayne: You could have the issue that many of your generators may come from third party vendors. it is a big concern to move to vendors who support accessibility. There's a real difference between tools that support ATAG requirements and those that don't.
<IanPouncey> Can't get back on the call - will try and follow on IRC
Helle: If we look at both Internet and intranet there are many web based systems of which many are inaccessible. They are not development tools but data input tools.
<IanPouncey> I think there is a difference between content creation tools and development tools - at least to developers :)
Shawn: The tools used to create and evaluate web sites
<IanPouncey> That sounds better
Wayne: If you are dealing with a 3rd party vendor who sells you a web-based product it would come under this statement.
Char: The ones I am talking about fall under ATAG.
<Char> but the output from those ATs falls under this
Wayne: Once the development /
maintenance cycle is in place, overall costs will go down
... when accessibility becomes part of the entire web development cycle, your entire process is more efficient.
Shawn: Where do we mention that
Wayne: it is one of the points we raise - that you are introducing rigorous, reliable code that does have to be patched and reworked because it is sound.
Shawn: other thoughts on messaging?
Wayne: after that first bump, the IT people become very happy because their work gets easier.
Shawn: good point. Anything else
of the next pass?
... on slide #15 can someone help me with those images?
Wayne: What do you need?
Shawn: we spoke about having a shopping cart, BuyNow and show hovering over it, show images off, etc. You can read the slide and decide what is best/
Wayne: Yes, I can do that.
... I have run into that a few times, I will help with that.
Shawn: Anything else on these
slides? Then I think we still need to work on the investment
illustrations. No other open issues.
... at some point in the next two weeks, I will put up an update of these slides and have maybe just one more discussion and then put them out. Suggestions, comments are welcome sooner rather than later.
... next week comments will be good. Does that work? questions?
... for those who are new - when we have an item that needs editing, we put @@ so you can search for those items that need work.
... anything else for the slide set?
Shawn: will probably bring that back on the 29th
Shawn: Happy to have that hosted
by the BBC. If you are planning on going, please fill out the
... if you think you might be going, let me know
... need help figuring out hotels.
... any questions?
Helle: the thing on the 25th on
standards and accessibility, will they allow us to
... is it far from the BBC?
<IanPouncey> Olivier and I can help with hotels. What sort of budget would you like us to look at.
Sandi: It is in Central London
Shawn: Trying to get a couple of
openings to other groups, meetings.
... if we tried to do an event on Saturday or Sunday or Wednesday morning or night, would you be available?
Helle: if we could get some idea of events asap, I could plan for it.
[Discussion of event planning in London]