<clifftyllick> Shaw, I'm not able to find the dial-in instructions. (I know they're here somewhere.) Can you shoot me an e-mail?
<shawn> mute: 61#
<shawn> unmute: 60#
Cliff, it's on the home page of EO, scroll down the page
<shawn> Cliff: http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/ under Teleconference logistics
<scribe> Scribe: Sharron
Shawn: Let's go around with intorductions. New people don't be shy about asking procedural questions.
<shawn> Diversity in Web Use http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/browsing
Shawn: Thanks to all who took the
survey. A couple have asked for more time. Title of one of the
pages, we settled on Diversity of Web Use. Are we still
... If so, let's move along to the stories of web users.
<shawn> Stories of Web Users http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/Drafts/PWD-Use-Web/2009/stories
Shawn: Denis and a few others submitted comments. Shadi responded to our original comments and will highlight those that need discussion.
Shadi: Since we are voting on publication, I would like careful consideration. Please exapnd all and let's go through section by section.
Shadi: start with Mr. Li the
online shopper with color blindness.
... Things that are changed have curly brackets, things that re new have blue background and square brackets.
Shadi: bascially the changes here
are editorial, clarification, not substantial.
... Let's look next at Mr. Jones. These changes are also editorial, not much for discussion but let's tak a minute for review.
Cliff: For copyedits? post later?
Shadi: Yes, just send those to me or put them in the survey form or whatever is easiest for you. Today let's try to identify things that may not be clear or that are imprecise.
Shadi: Consider the story of Ms. Martinez.
Shawn: It sounds becasue of the order, like the transcipts support those who cannot download or play audio.
Shadi: Change the order?
Shawn: Yes, I think that would be clearer.
Cliff: Can just move "in other languages" to the end.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms martineze -- move "other languages for international students" to the end of the list [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action01]
Shadi: The story of Ms Laitinen has some more substantial considerations, I believe. In the beginning of the the text we note that she does not read Braille. Included to dismiss the myth that all blind users use Braille. We may remove the reference to how Braille works. Will come back in a bit.
Wayne: I was struck by that a little. The non-Braille users have profoundly higher unemployment rates. For someone to rise to this level of responsibility in a compnay and not read Braille is highly unlikely.
<Sandi> I am registered blind and I don't read Braille or do you mean folk who were blind from birth?
Shadi: The statistics are
unfamiliar but I would be interested in exploring later in the
... for now let's look at other issues like the keyboard shortcuts.
... It may confusing for those who are new to the topic, able to understand how the keyboard functions work and why it is relevant.
Shawn: The important part is how much is dependent on the browser and how much on the assistive technology.
Shadi: Depends on how technical you want to get.
Cliff: To use her computer and
the web, she uses screenreading software which reads on the
screen, provides keyboard support so she can navigate without a
... move term "screenreader" up to the intro and use bullets to say what the software does.
Shawn: Let's figure out what
points we want and let Shadi figure out how to configure.
... together the screenreader and the browser do ...these things
Char: Be careful of the fact that people reading this will say "yes, but all computers have keyboard support."
Shadi: Issue is that we may give the impression that the screenreader comes along magically providing all the functionality when the reality is that they must work together. It's not really the screen reader that provides the support...
Cliff: but works with OS and browser to deliver
Shawn: So it will be good to refer to keyboard support but not be too technical or detailed
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms laitinen -- consider integrating keyboard support without saying where what functionality comes from [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action02]
Shawn: If you have comments that are substantive, please send to the main EO mailing list. If your comments are more editorial, wordsmithing just send to editor's list.
Shadi: Now, the very last sentence of that section refers to the challenge of finding a fully accessible video conferencing system. Is it useful or too much and should just be left out?
Shawn: I there was an example.
Sharron: Are we saying it was beneficial to have a video conferencing system or that the benefit was becasue it was accessible?
Shadi: Yes because it was accessible.
Cliff: Then let's find a feature that makes it accessible and also provides wider benefit.
Shadi: Support for text resizing.
<shawn> Sharron: we often project seminars - several people in a room
<shawn> ... text resizing important
<shawn> Sharron: idea of projection to make a connection to the wider benefits of accessibility
Cliff: yes, it is common to share and project when more tema members are attending.
Shadi: For that use case, we
might have a good example. But for all other use cases it
really depends on how it is used. For example, I have heard
that if it is accessible, you can have a log afterward.
... for everyone, this may not be a benefit.
... so in this case, is it worth the complexity.
Wayne: I don't think it is.
... every single feature of accessibility does not have to have general use. It can help the target group. That's enough.
Shawn: Because it "was a challenge" to find an accessible one, it is nice to show broad benefit.
Cliff: If you take that whole last sentence off, it sounds like any virtual learning platform will work.
Shadi: Any objection to leaving as is?
Cliff: Leaves people hanging.
Shawn: Can you use the text resizing feature?
Wayne: A problem is the resizing function does not actually meet the needs of people with low vision.
Shadi: What if we refer to the keyboard access and text resizing in a general way?
Sandi: Text resizing in a conference setting is really important.
Wayne: Within the context of most video conferencing platforms I have used, it remains difficult.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms laitinen -- provide 1-2 examples of accessibility features that benefits people with and without disabilities [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action03]
<shadi> [[and transcripts for trainings]]
Shawn: One of the things is that people who worry about having a transcipted record of each meeting, could emphasize that his is a training.
<ceciliafarell> ha, ha
Shadi: Consider "she uses
extensions" for her browser. Is that the simplest? Is it
... does not always work on every web site. Why? Only works when webistes are properly coded.
Cliff: that is a good change
Wayne: Yes, agreed
Shadi: Let' move on to Mr. Yunus
retiree. His mild short-term memory loss sounds much more
severe than we intended. How can we better clarify the effect
and how to tone it down a bit?
... read through the section and then let's discuss.
Char: It is odd to see a child addressed as Ms so-and-so, kids are usually addressed by their first names.
Shawn: Let's talk about that at the end and focus on Mr. Yunus and the short term memory loss.
Shadi: Do the changes help?
Sharron: Yes, they help
Shadi: Any suggestions for toning down the mild short-term meomory loss?
Wayne: Why must it be toned down?
Shadi: Maybe the question should be is there a disconnect between the clinical describption of his disability and the impact on his browsing?
Shawn: You have the word mild there Shadi, it seems to cover it.
Shadi: Seems a bit harsh
... within the third paragraph the description of how he behaves when encountering a CAPTCHA. Now the term is more commonly used. Does the explanation help?
Shawn: If you don't know what
CAPTCHA is, the explanation doesn't really help.
... most people don't know what the purpose is so won't relate to that definition.
Shadi: Then how to explain?
Cliff: A few years ago, people may not have been familiar with the term, but anyone online has encountered one.
Wayne: But if you say distorted images of text that are used for log-in, they would know that they have been there.
<shadi> [[distorted images of text that are used for log-in]]
Cliff: add "test he must pass for log-in"
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- mr yunus -- rephrase description of CAPTCHA as per the above [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action04]
<shawn> with CAPTCHA in parenthesis
Shadi: Conclusion is no change to heading. additions in brackets and light blue background will stay and I will take a stab at rewriting CAPTCHA part with this input. Any other comments?
Shadi: Let's go on to consider
Mr. Sands. The changes are more simple.
... changed to clarify that he does work there and that the items were clearly labeled. These are OK?
Cliff: Outstanding changes
Shadi: On to Ms. Kaseem, teenager
with deaf-blindness. Must learn Braille, hard to learn at a
later stage in life and there is a concrete suggestion to turn
it around so that she is born blind and becomes deaf.
Qualifiers are that she reads Braille slowly, etc but take
amoment to read and understand.
... Having read the story and considering the possibility of turning it around, what do you think?
Shawn: What are the issues in flipping it around. Why a problem?
Shadi: During the development there was a tendency to want to use legally blind.
Shawn: If someone uses a combination of extreme magnification, screen reader and since she was born with the condition, Braille.
Shadi: In either case, we would have to explain the Braille.
Helle: I cna't really see that it
changes anything to put one or the other one first.
... she would have to learn Braille in any case. There would be other things that will be problematic. Sign-in-hand for example.
Shawn: If the condition she was born with, they knew was likely to lose her sight, she would have been taught Braille from childhood.
Helle: People are not inclined to learn Braille until it is actually necessary.
Cliff: If she is blind from
birth, the reflow changes.
... think we should keep the sequence.
Shadi: Then add a sentence that
she must learn Braille since there is not option.
... short list of technology she uses followed by the Braille reference.
Cliff: Add it to the part of "refreshable Braille which she reads slowly because she is only now learning to read Braille"
Shawn: Can reference it as a degenerative condition over time which gives her time to learn Braille.
Helle: Legally blind does not mean you are totally blind but just that you fulfill certain conditions.
Shawn: Yes, that was the point that reviewers wanted clarified.
<Sandi> yes sorry. have muted myself again somehow. a gift to you shawn!
Shawn: so the tendency now is to leave her as born deaf and slowly losing sight over time, yes?
Cliff: work into the story Helle's point that people don't learn Braille until they must.
<Sandi> Yes that's true. The only blind folk I know who have degenerative diseases learn braille when they have to.
Wayne: There is a lot of teaching Braille to kids with low vision these days? It is not uncommon anymore. It's kind of a hot topic in early literacy for low vision.
<Sandi> I think the stat is that 3% of blind people read Braille?
Helle: I think there is great variance from one contry to another when you begin to teach Braille.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms kaseem -- explain that she is *born* deaf and *progressively* became blind (so she had enough time to learn braille), and expand "she reads slowly" to clarify why [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action05]
<shawn> ACTION: Shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms kaseem -- under Diversity in web use - put back in the braille links [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action06]
Shadi: Two more issues to
discuss. Keep these changes in mind, go back again to Ms
Laitenen the accountant with blindness.
... she does not read Braille. So we have a story where one person does not read it, and one where she only reads Braille because she must.
Shawn: Understanding Wayne's
point that she is likely to have learned Braille if she reaches
this level of reposnibility, it is more important to emphasize
that not all blind people read braille.
... would it be helpful to say she became blind?
Wayne: Actually I was revisiting my research, much of it is old 1991(!)
<Sandi> lots of people suffer from diabetic retiinopothy
Helle: Most blind people are not born blind
Shawn: Do you want to explore
... she does not read Braille.
<Sandi> Hey guys! I have muted myself so am on IRC only. Am I doing it right?
<Sandi> I don't know how I've muted myself,. Sorry. Am a dingbat.
Helle: She may lack the sensitivity in her fingertips to read braille.
<shadi> ACTION: shadi -- people with disabilities -- stories of web users -- ms laitinen -- consider mentioning that Ms Laitinen does not use braile because of numbness in her fingers [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/04/08-eo-minutes.html#action07]
Shawn: Shall we leave this to
editor's discretion or do we want to guide the editor?
... first are we OK that Ms Laitenen does not read Braille?
<Sandi> Does the reader benefit from the additional information or does it just add complexity?
Shawn: Should we explain?
Shadi: As editor, I am on the fence but leaning toward not adding complexity.
Helle: But remove as well "like many other computer users"
<Sandi> Most people don't understand about disability at all, so think we need to keep it simple and easy for someone who has not experienced disabled folk.
Shawn: But we want to make it a general case
Shadi: "like many other people, does not read Braille"
<shadi> [[She is blind and, like many other blind people, does not read braille]]
<Sandi> Wayne - that's because only 3% of people who are registered blind have no sight at all.
Shadi: I think if there are no other issues, we have worked through the ones that have come into the survey so far.
Wayne: My concern was that there
was no person with a congenital disability that had a high
status job. It gives the impression that you could not attain a
high level if you have congenital disability.
... Ms Laitenen now conveys that sense and is good as is.
... other comments?
... back to you Shawn.
Shawn: Want to discuss high-level
issues with revised cost/investment section to inform the next
edit pass, for later discussion.
... Slide 19 OK but what does it cost? Review notes. Is this what we want to say?
Sharron: Yes I think this is a fair accurate series of statements.
Cliff: Have introduced investment
in a direct way, that's good.
... yes, this is much better.
Shawn: On Slide 22, set the view
to see what is on the side, the chart, etc.
... one version had very low investment and very high return and it freaked people out.
... by adding the various kinds of returns, what is your intial reaction?
<ceciliafarell> can we explain the conditions for each line?
Wayne: Explain this chart.
Shawn: Previously had money spent
across time. Return was low at first and then went really
... have changed it so that levels of return are demonstrated.
Sharron: My problem is that it is fictional
Shadi: mine too
Shawn: OK then what would be a good graphical depiction of this idea?
Shadi: Remove the numbers
... from the timeline itself.
Sharron: What about a tree with roots and leaves blooming out
Shawn: I would ask you to think about a visual depiction of these ideas.
<Sandi> when was the l&g site built?
<Sandi> why not use a more current example?
if only :)
<Sandi> what do you mean by if only?
<Sandi> how about the Action for Blind People website we built and launched this year?
Shawn: Review the current work,
watch the list, complete the survey.
... we are actively seeking current examples for biz case
If that is all, new folks stay on for a bit of orientation and editing work, otherwise adjourned.
<Sandi> Action was totally inaccessible before
<Sandi> tell me what you need. they would be happy to participate.
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