Judy: request that we re-order agenda
might not have everyone on the call
for the full duration
Janina: still working on the my one action item, not yet finished
Janina: does changing our time back one hour affect Silvia?
Judy: continuing at this time is difficult for members on the East coast of North America
Silvia: I need to check time changes in Oz
(exploring the possibility of shifting by 30 minutes)
Janina: propose we resolve this via email before next week
Janina: after many emails, and questions of timing, where are we at?
it seemed obvious at the F2F that we were all of a sudden further away from resolution than we thought
how much more time do we need? Is irt really important to get this in before last Call?
Judy: I have 1 question for feedback
in terns of fact check, my impression is that while this issue started late, it appears to be moving rapidly and constructively
is this accurate? if not why not?
ERic: Believes you are correct
Silvia: agrees
<Sean> Ian needs to engage too
Silvia: there remains a lot of open issue to resolve however. We are making progress, and unearthing issues, we are far from unanimity
but certainly not by friday
Judy: understanding that one of the co-chairs was to ask for a consensus position by Friday, or let this be resolved after Last Call document be published
my concern with this is that this is a significant requirement for feature complete requirements
<silvia> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0214.html
<silvia> "In particular, if everybody agrees -- as in, there is no dissent -- we
<silvia> will gladly mark ISSUE-152 as a Last Call issue, take it off the
<silvia> critical path for now, and leave the issue OPEN to be resolved later,
<silvia> with plenty of opportunity to still be included in HTML5."
<Sean> Agree with Eric
Eric: wants to add to what silvia said - not only are we not at a place to arrive at consensus at this time, however none of the authors are completely happy with existing proposals either
Don't believe we will reach consensus by Friday
may never reach unanimity, but we will get to a point were there are fewer proposals, and 'better' proposals
Judy: just want to register concern about the question/timeline as being framed
suggest we get to actual technical issue discussion
Silvia: not sure what the process issue is
Judy: understand that multi-track issue is required to be feature complete
and W3c process requires that Last Call be feature complete
<Sean> Adding this after last call would require going back to working draft. However that is likely anyway
however, let's focus on getting closer to technical consensus
+q
Janina: Judy is exploring larger issues w.r.t. process
Silvia; by reading IRC logs, it seems that the chairs are expecting a second last call
Judy: believe that this is not the case
knowing that a follow on last Call in the next calendar year, that features will be lost on that
Silvia: the other way to deal with this is
Ian's spec at WHATWG has not been added to the W3C spec
if that moves into the W3C spec, we have a placeholder in the spec that can be further refined
the question then is, do we recommend to adopt this now, and then use that as a starting point
Eric: there are some good things in Ian's spec, and others that make no sense.
want to wait to see what ian does based upon feedback he has received
Judy: agrees with Eric and Sean's comments; this would be an unusual approach. Would be interested in seeing what this group could come up with as a proposal
eric: what happens if we miss the proposed deadline with nothing in it now?
Judy: at this time there is nothing in the W3c spec. given that this is a significant requirement, and it is not there, then it would likely generate a Fromal objection
since Last Call requirements is that Last Call is Feature complete
ther is concern about time-lines
in order to make progress, we need proposals
the most important thing now is to try and make progress on consensus
JF: what seems to be the largest sticking point right now?
<Sean> it is going to be hard for me to engage in a technical debate
Sean: I have a few detailed points that don't seem to be being addressed
there are a few things that seem to be fundamentally opposed by people
but I think that if we can address some issues, I can come up with a proposal that works fo r me
<Sean> the mute on my phone doesnt seem to do anything
Silvia: one of the most key points seems that Sean wants to pull out all of the track elements so that they are top level elements
is this still the case, are you adamant about this
Sean: issue is that the captions are bound to the video window
what I care about is that they can be placed outside of the video retangle
so this is just another way of looking at how the CSS would be looking at this
Silvia: would it help if via CSS we could influence where the track is rendered
Sean: the issue is that video is constrained to be in the viewport
Silvia: this can be done already
Sean; I want to be able to do this without having to manually pull them out and then re-insert them into the DOM
Silbvia: isn't this part of the 80/20 rule today?
Sean: this is probably the case today, however that is the TV model. On the web we have more/other real estate
(+1 to Sean from JF)
Silvia: if we don't do this by default, then the author needs to do extra work to place the captions on top of the video
this can be done using CSS as the default, however doing the other is not possible right now
Sean: sees this as analogous to the <map> element
user agent 'knows' that normally this is bound to the video rectangle
<Sean> my current thinking http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/ESH_Media_Multitrack
issue surrounding in-band and out-of-band tracks
Eric; we need to come up with a solution that works for both'
<scribe> (ongoing discussion on using CSS for placement of the track location
Sean: no problem with adding a cue pseudo element
you would still need to know that they exist
Silvia: does this sound like we can agree to keep track as a child element of video?
Sean: yes, thta is not the issue
the question is whether or not the video is a view port or not
Silvia: can you explain how you want to see the video if it is not a view port? how should the layout be?
SEan: it's a containing box in term of CSS
Silvia; where should the track be rendered?
Sean inside that containing box
that is the default
Silvia: the pseudo selector would address the rectangle where the track is rendered. would this solve the problem?
Sean; perhaps, yes
seems a long-winded way to do it, but yes it would likely work
Eric; do you have an alternative solution that would work for in-band and out of band?
Sean: seems that track pseudo selector might work, need to think it through more fully, but sounds plausible
Eric: does it make sense to file a bug against the existing track specification, so that we can get this out of the way, so that we can continue to move toward consensus on the larger multi-track issue
... if we can get this as a bug, then this will help progress
Judy: sounds good to separate out the pieces of dissension so that we can focus on what we agree on
<Sean> i think it makes sense. ::track would need to work no text and video in band implicit tracks
Judy: if we can get Silvia to confirm that this is good, then we can continue to move on.
<silvia> I agree - I also wanted to have this registered as a separate bug to the multitrack discussion
<Sean> however one glitch I see is ::track working on video that is an element part of a mediagroup
<silvia> I think we should capture our thoughts in a wiki page and then send it through as a bug to the HTML WG
Judy: are there other issues around the multi-track issue?
Eric: what I think makes sense is to wait and see what Ian responds with. he does understand the issue, and has thought through some of the aspects with the media content that is out there
i don't agree with everything he proposes, and apple has given him feedback on what we like and don't like
Sean: it would be helpful to have this discussion in one place - W3C
Judy: does it make any sense to try and re-convene tomorrow, based on Eric's comments and Seans need to have the discussion here
This issue is an important one for the IE team and we'd like to see progress towards including changes in the spec before Last Call based on the existing timetable. The current discussion is helpful and I believe that we've all learned from the last couple of weeks.
I would like to suggest a little time for Change Proposals to be updated with the recent new information before proceeding with the survey. This should be at least one week.
Please can the chairs consider this proposal as a compromise between moving forward with the existing survey and postponing the whole issue until after Last Call?
Thanks,
Adrian.
Janina: we just need a bit more time: a week or a few weeks at most
Judy: the chairs do need time to turn everything into a draft to bring back to the group
it is not casual to say the difference of a week or 2 or a month - this has a huge process impact on the chairs
Silvia are you able to find a phone for a critical q?
<silvia> no, I don't have access to a free phone here
<silvia> shoot away on irc
Sean; if we can get everyone who cares about this to work solidly on this for a week or two, then we could likely get to the end. but if people wander off then we won't succeed
the question is, can we get to consensus proposla in 2 weeks if we work hard on this?
<janina> Silvia?
<silvia> I'd be happy for a few more phone conferences to discuss this further - we just need to be aware that there is also Mozilla and Opera who may again have different opinions
Janina: setting something like this up is do-able
it seems that real-time dialog is getting us progress
<silvia> I think amongst us that were at the F2F we should be able to get to something - seeing as Frank isn't here today either, I am not even sure we have all opinions covered right now
Judy: encouraged to see how we are moving forward when we get rolling
Eric: silvia knows Chris double better than i do, but she could likely ask him to join us
<silvia> question: would it make sense to create another wiki page with the set of proposals under discussion, including Ian's, so we have a basis for another round of discussions?
Janina: we should canvas via email to see if we can find alternate times, or establish a good time.
Eric: believe it might be fruitful to continue via email before setting up an additional teleconference
<silvia> Eric: Chris Double is not doing much on the video element any more - I might be able to encourage Chris Pearce - I had feedback from Robert O'Callahan that he preferred option 6 approach before our F2F and a similar opinion was stated on the mailing list by Philip
Silvia there is agreement to your proposal - we look forward to seeing your wiki page ,smile>
<silvia> :-)
<Sean> ok I'm gonna get to bed. I'm mostly open next week
Eric: my schedule through the early part of next week is complicated, I might be harder to get involved, but will do my best