See also: IRC log
trackbot, prepare meeting
<trackbot> Date: 23 February 2011
<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips
<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips
<scribe> ScribeNick: aphillip
<r12a> hurrry up zakim
<r12a> kenny, are you joining the call
review documents for review and such
Change the language tags article to say that now there is an extension defined, and describe it briefly
trackbot, close ACTION-4
<trackbot> ACTION-4 Change the language tags article to say that now there is an extension defined, and describe it briefly closed
also did "choosing language tags"
please send comments
<r12a> http://www.w3.org/International/questions/qa-choosing-language-tags
Check on HTML5 language tag validator and send any comments
addison: need to copy list
<r12a> http://www.org/International/track
Update review radar and ping www-international seeking comments
close ACTION-8
<trackbot> ACTION-8 Update review radar and ping www-international seeking comments closed
Review techniques index pages to check that all the current links in the index point to the right place
Publish language tags article
trackbot, close ACTION-22
<trackbot> ACTION-22 Publish language tags article closed
Propose advancement of UTR#20 to publication based on our revision and noting that we plan a substantive revision
addison: done... will check why not in archives
richard: Unicode version 6 complete text was published
<r12a> http://www.w3.org/blog/International/2011/02/22/unicode_version_6_0_complete_text_of_cor
richard: multilingual web
workshop in Pisa
... anyone who would like to speak, please send in
registration
... or anyone who wants to come
<r12a> http://www.multilingualweb.eu/documents/pisa-workshop/pisa-cfp
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-core/2011JanMar/0061.html
addison: propose that we ask Unicode to assemble this data?
<kojiishi> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-text/#text-transform
kojiishi: just updated the spec,
defining it as each word in title case per Unicode
... word definition is unclear
... and internationalized titlecase is difficult
... saying in following text that UAX29 suggested and
implementation defined
<kojiishi> 'tis -> 'Tis
kojiishi: word segementation
could be better defined for capitalization
... also provide for language dependent rules and tables
richard: capitalize option
depends on finding each word and then capitalizing
... but also word or phrase done sometimes?
fantasai: just did an
update
... copied over text
... put first letter (grapheme?) in titlecase
... even if you go back to CSS1, doesn't do anything language
specific
... everything straightforward except for definition of "what
is a word"
... points to UAX29 for text segementation
... this is not the way to do proper title case
... rarely gives good results
... just define well enough to make it work reliably
r12a: you've changed word to ttitlecase
fantasai: should be checked in
r12a: is there an option to
capitalize beginning of phrase
... not just whole phrase
fantasai: have to do sentence
detection
... stuff like embedded spans would interefere
r12a: sort of like "first letter" though
fantasai: need to correct text to "titlecase" and fix tests instead of uppercase
r12a: first-letter is more useful
than each word
... may still be language specific issues
... may be useful to ask Unicode to spec out more
fantasai: does user-agent
recognize (e.g.) ' or T as first letter in 'Tis
... does UAX29 recognize? probably just use for text
segmentation
... then apply to each word
!Kung
ij
IJ
kojiishi: looking at spec
... maybe say use Unicode definition
... and not "first letter"
<kojiishi> http://www.unicode.org/versions/Unicode6.0.0/ch05.pdf
<kojiishi> 5.18 Case Mappings, Titlecasing
kojiishi: section 5.18,
... apply Unicode titlecasing to each word
addison: allow for language specific?
fantasai: want to see it consistently broken in all cases
r12a: if we point to Unicode, then up to Unicode how far they take it
fantasai: is this worth having inconsistent implementations?
r12a: if we point to Unicode,
then now it will be consistent (ly bad)
... but could improve over time
... might be able to plug in specific languages
fantasai: can't count on it
generally, even if work on your computer
... can't count on results is not helpful
norbert: don't agree with word "style", since this changes text
r12a: articles on our site
written in sentence case, but using a style to lowercase
them
... so it really is styling
... proper e.g. German casing should be in text
... this is just "prettyfication"
fantasai: feature doesn't work
most of the time and won't
... really need human intervention
... or sophisticated linguistic analysis
... and already making undefined
Norbert: in German, casing makes
a difference in meaning
... e.g. fliegen vs. Fliegen
... not just matter of style
... titlecasing would change meaning
r12a: so you'd remove style for translation into German
Norbert: really a dangerous feature
addison: is it deprecated enough?
fantasai: did add some text, will take to CSS WG to ask them (if you want)
r12a: if I use this, would
probably use in :first-letter case only
... so I would find it useful in that case
fantasai: can give example of words broken
<David> can you hear me?
<David> 1 minute while I redail
addison: couple of
proposals:
... first, ask Unicode to assemble information
... second, ask CSS to further deprecate or provide negative
examples
David: recommend
deprecation
... a lot stronger in saying in some cases that it will alter
meaning
r12a: thinking about this in
cases where use style and then text translated
... but you wouldn't use this property in the translation
... something that works in English
... not so dangerous
<kojiishi> if you deprecate, you may also loose first-letter case as well?
r12a: put health warning, but most of time it will be perfectly obvious that it not working right
fantasai: can be useful with first-letter
<scribe> chair: proposals...
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: ask Unicode/CLDR to work on additional language-specific tailrings and data for titlecasing
<r12a> yes
fantasai: aginst
... request when we actually need it
norbert: agree
kojiishi: could ask to optimize
definition of word for titlecasing?
... improve UAX29
ack
David: don't have a use case,
significant work
... so not worth asking at this point
... ask for things we need
kennyluck: defer
r12a: got impression mark as keen to do this
fantasai: on their todo list, but not high priority
<scribe> chair: sense is that we're say "no formal request"
UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: UAX29 improvements?
fantasai: no strong opinion
<r12a> yes
r12a: these things need to be done one day
<scribe> chair: ask for formal deprecation? or ask for further negative examples, etc.?
r12a: the latter
norbert: can see first-letter
case
... corner cases
<kennyluck> suppport
fantasai: will just edit into spec, just need clear understanding of what to put there
addison: have WG members provide comments and suggested text?
fantasai: yes, post to www-style@
David: looking like 1500 UTC
<David> http://doodle.com/b58wqx87g4hqgkbc
fantasai: proposal to
hyphenate...
... is all hyphentation just on first line only
r12a: some scripts where
hyphentation happens on second line
... ?
fantasai: need specific example
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.135 of Date: 2009/03/02 03:52:20 Check for newer version at http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/ Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00) Succeeded: s/first letter/:first-letter/ Found Scribe: Addison Phillips Found Scribe: Addison Phillips Found ScribeNick: aphillip WARNING: No "Present: ... " found! Possibly Present: Addison_Phillips David Norbert P12 P19 P28 Richard ScribeNick addison aphillip fantasai freedom kennyluck kojiishi matial r12a trackbot You can indicate people for the Present list like this: <dbooth> Present: dbooth jonathan mary <dbooth> Present+ amy Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Feb/0013.html Found Date: 23 Feb 2011 Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/02/23-i18n-minutes.html People with action items:[End of scribe.perl diagnostic output]