HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference

27 Jan 2011


See also: IRC log


Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina, Michael_Cooper, Steve_Faulkner, Mike_Smith, John_Foliot, Marco_Ranon, Léonie_Watson
Laura_Carlson, Denis_Boudreau, Geoff_Freed, Cynthia_Shelly, Joshue_O'Connor, Kenny_Johar, Silvia_Pfieffer, Rich


<trackbot> Date: 27 January 2011

<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon

<janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka & Mike_Smith

<janina> agenda: this

<oedipus> Newly Filed Issues of Interest (157, 158, 160, & 161)

<scribe> scribe: Leonie_Watson

Identify Scribe http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Scribe_List

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

Newly Filed Issues of Interest (157, 158, 160, & 161)

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/157

<oedipus> "This issue is not about "fixing ARIA", but about establishing a image map model which, eventually, lets ARIA implement image maps. (In that regard, I also mentioned image maps in this comment to on the ARIA 1.0 spec http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg-comments/2011JanMar/0001 "

<oedipus> MC: HTML5 adapt model that ARIA expected to harmonize upon, we need to be involved

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/158

<oedipus> MC: issue 158 - HTML4 content model for OBJECT should be retained in HTML5

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/160

MC: My understanding is that HTML already does this.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

<MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/161

<oedipus> MC: issue that tags work already taken on in subgroup of HTML A11y TF

<MichaelC> relates to http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-api-map/overview.html

JS: Any discussion on those issues?
... Should we check in on 157 and 158 from time to time?

MC: To my mind 157 relates to fall back content.

<oedipus> GJR will follow issue 158 on OBJECT

<JF> +q

MC: Tracker issue 90 relates to issue 158.
... I'm not aware of any existing activity on 157 within this TF.

: I'm concerned about the terminology of "fall back".

: s/I'm concerned about the terminology of "fall back"./JF: I'm concerned about the terminology of "fall back"./

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/first_2_paragraphs_of_definition_of_img change " An img element represents an image. The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content, and the value of the alt attribute is the img element's fallback content." to "An img element represents an image. The image given by the src attribute is the embedded content; the value of the alt...

<oedipus> ...attribute provides equivalent content for those who cannot process images or who have image loading disabled."

<oedipus> "

JF: When we toss the phrase "fall back" around within the tf, we understand what it means. We perhaps need to be more careful externally.

<oedipus> fallback to me is a placeholder for something not there (image not loaded icon) --

JS: We clearly need an alternative, one term should not apply to both circumstances.

<oedipus> fallback equals error recovery, not equivalent content

SF: With regard to canvas, is that the fall back can be interacted with even when the canvas is present.

JS: I don't think we should be the ones to disambiguate the terminology, but we should raise it with the WG.

MC: The distinction of use cases is something that accessibility specialists will be more aware of, but I'm not sure if people in the wider WG have that experience.

<oedipus> agree with MC -- if understood by wider WG, would not have had to submit change proposal for definition of IMG

GJR: Perhaps we should look at uses of "fall back content" and see if we can think of something more appropriate.

JS: Should this move to bug triage?

MC: No, it was bounced back from bug triage to the TF.
... Is there anything to say on 157?

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open


<trackbot> ACTION-85 -- Léonie Watson to create a change proposal for ISSUE-80 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 -- due 2010-01-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/85

<oedipus> LW: have a proposal from SteveF for over a year -- had look at and thought was ok

<MichaelC> close action-85

<trackbot> ACTION-85 Create a change proposal for ISSUE-80 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/80 closed


<trackbot> ACTION-86 -- Cynthia Shelly to create change proposal for ISSUE-133 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133 -- due 2010-01-13 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/86

GJR: Was this overcome by my action to take the modal issue to ARIA?

<MichaelC> close action-86

<trackbot> ACTION-86 Create change proposal for ISSUE-133 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/133 closed


<trackbot> ACTION-87 -- Gregory Rosmaita to create change proposal for ISSUE-134 http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/134 -- due 2011-01-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/87

GJR: Let me do some actions and I'll confirm it's closed to the list.


<trackbot> ACTION-90 -- Michael Cooper to do gap analysis between embedded content use cases and existing support -- due 2010-12-09 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/90


<trackbot> ACTION-93 -- Gregory Rosmaita to find someone to work on change proposal for drag and drop -- due 2011-01-05 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/93

<MikeSmith> sounds great

GJR: Saw an email from MS asking Gez Lemon to review new HTML5 drag/drop info.

<JF> JF notes that Actions 94 and 95 should be closed


<trackbot> ACTION-100 -- Janina Sajka to - talk to Laura about decoupling of "what" from "where" in preparation for discussion in WAI CG -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/100

JS: Apologies, I've been remiss on my actions because of other priorities.


<trackbot> ACTION-101 -- Gregory Rosmaita to - email ARIA Caucus to request a "modal" attribute for ARIA -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/101

<JF> +q

GJR: It's in progress.


<trackbot> ACTION-102 -- Janina Sajka to - draft request for reconsideration on Issue-30 -- due 2011-01-20 -- OPEN

<trackbot> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/102

JF: Actions 94/95 should be closed?

MC: I skipped them so they can be dealt with under the media sub team.

JS: I would have closed them yesterday, but for a blip with zakim.

MC: They're closed now.

Subteam Reports: Canvas; ARIA Mappings; Media; Bug Triage

JS: Please, in your group meetings consider issues we should focus on at the face to face meeting.
... If we can plan in advance we may be able to get people from other WGs to drop in (as we did at TPAC).

SF: ARIA mappings, we had a meeting last Tuesday and discussed proposals put forward by HTML Editors.

<oedipus> GJR: need feedback on CANVAS from Frank Oliver of MS and David Bolter (mozilla) to discuss CANVAS issues -- Rich otherwise ok with progress of spec text and engineering

SF: Due to the new bugs that have just gone in with regards to integrating ARIA role mappings, we think the form will change.
... For example, in our proposal we have a table that has everything in it, the editors version has two tables, so our approach will be to leave it as two tables.

JF: Media, attendance on our calls has been light.
... There remains two/three ouststanding issues. How do we associate secondary media content with primary media content.
... Related is the question of how e keep things in sync.

<oedipus> for latest drafts of canvas materials, consult the agenda for this week's meeting (3 attachements) http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-canvas-api/2011JanMar/0035.html

<JF> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/PosterElement

JF: We've also discussed my proposal for video poster in detail.
... The solution is that any image that is painted to the screen is essentially part of the video, so any attribs relevant to that image are part of the video.

<oedipus> abbr expansion, too

JF: I feel that stronger attributes may be needed in some circumstances. If we move it to a child element of video we can add things like lang attribute etc.

<oedipus> a11y AND i18n issues

JS: I think there seems to be disagreement on where/how it should be captured, rather than whether it should be captured.
... If we come up with more examples of what we want to capture and offer more markup suggestions on how we could capture them.

JF: We concluded the discussion by agreeing we needed more use cases and sample code.
... If anyone is interested in helping with this, I'd welcome that.

<oedipus> PFWG RESOLUTION (2011-01-26): PFWG has determined that a mechanism for user and programmaticly determined discoverability of the metadata attached to video is a requirement for HTML5's <video> element

<oedipus> under 48 hour CfC

MC: Bug triage, we feel like we're winding down a little bit because of the stage of bug filing the WG is at.
... There are still a number of bugs we'd previously identified had a need for more information to be provided, and two have been assigned to people.
... We talked this week about temporarily slowing down our work until the next major bug filing opportunity comes up.

JF: Could we use the face to face meeting to recap some of the bugs?

MC: We could perhaps make better use of the time then to look at bugs that still need attention.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/aria-lexical-processing

SF: Three bugs have been filed relating to ARIA mapping. The effect of these will be to more tightly integrate ARIA into HTML5.
... Is this something we expect will happen before last call?

JS: We'd like to try to get it in before last call.

<MikeSmith> I'm here

JS: We're looking at whether we can elevate this to the chairs.

<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/comments/details?comment_id=18

JS: There was an issue arising out of ARIA moving to CR. It became a formal objection.
... The issue involves other people/things such as SVG.

Face to Face Agenda Discussion

Issue-30 longdesc Redux

<oedipus> my concern was that role not defined in HTML5 so can't say role="presentation" is kosher when missing @alt because is unspecified in HTML5

GJR: Based on our discussion last week, SF has taken this in hand.
... The biggest problem with the survey is that role isn't currently defined as native to HTML5.

JS: Does anyone really feel they would like to contribute to the survey?

JF: I'm confused about what the issue is. If we're talking about alt, doesn't this circle back to the change proposal?

JS: I'm trying to get a decision/consensus on what we should do.

JF: I think there would be use in us looking at the proposals in depth and perhaps agreeing on a single proposal.
... Could the TF say that of the x number of proposals, we generally support one?

JS: To my mind I have trepidations of the wider WG deciding if we can't decide.
... One sticking point was that SF wasn't sure that labelledby should be considered alternative text.

<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask is this something we should recycle to WAI-CG?

<oedipus> agree about labelledby

JS: I'd like to figure out the process for discussing this, rather than get into discussing it at the moment.

SF: The other issue is that it's wrong to have ARIA conformance as part of HTML5

JS: Can we take this trending information from the survey and see if it maps closely to any one of the change proposals in particular?

<oedipus> does anyone have a pointer to Laura's compilation page with each change proposal in a TABLE

JS: Would anyone be able to do that analysis?

<Marco_Ranon> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/ImgElementSurveyConformaceChoices

<janina> proposed action Steve to compare our WBS on alternative text with the 5 existing change proproposals.

rssagent make minutes

rrsagent make minutes

<janina> Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match.

<oedipus> ACTION: Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-103 - Compare our WBS results to the 5 existing change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match. [on Steve Faulkner - due 2011-02-03].

<Stevef> http://dev.w3.org/html5/alt-techniques/

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Steve to compare our WBS results to the 5 existing change proposals on alternative text, looking for best match. [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/01/27 17:12:23 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/check in on 57 and 58/check in on 157 and 158/
Succeeded: s/interested in this/interested in helping with this/
Succeeded: s/role wasn't defined anywhere/role isn't currently defined as native to HTML5/
Found Scribe: Leonie_Watson
Inferring ScribeNick: Leonie_Watson
Default Present: +1.510.367.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Steve_Faulkner, +1.510.367.aabb, Gregory_Rosmaita, Eric_Carlson, Janina, +44.117.929.aacc
Present: Eric_Carlson Gregory_Rosmaita Janina Michael_Cooper Steve_Faulkner Mike_Smith John_Foliot Marco_Ranon Léonie_Watson
Regrets: Laura_Carlson Denis_Boudreau Geoff_Freed Cynthia_Shelly Joshue_O'Connor Kenny_Johar Silvia_Pfieffer Rich
Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Jan/0261.html
Found Date: 27 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/27-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: steve

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