Internationalization Teleconference

19 Jan 2011


See also: IRC log


Addison Phillips
Addison Phillips


<David> will be with you properly in 5 minutes.

<scribe> Scribe: Addison Phillips

<scribe> ScribeNick: aphillip

Minutes and Agenda review

Action Items

<kennyluck> http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/3

kenny: sent email responding on issue 3


aharon: text-align on option
... check with CSS on what it does/should/can do on that

gwyneth: also followed up

aharon: sent out note, but just a few minutes ago
... second action was clarify use cases of form value direction remembering
... will get to it this coming week

Info Share

richard has no info to share

Wrapping up on Bidi

text-align on option

gwyneth: talked to sylvan

<r12a-mac> quite hard to hear gwyneth

gwyneth: direction is currently undefined on option
... not sure what we can do without opening proverbial can of worms

<kennyluck> +1 bidi is mentioned again and again in CSS, but it's still not enough

aharon: there is a blanket statement in html5 about native controls
... that they must follow directionality of elements
... so selects must display according to dir
... not sure if native control type of behavior in this case should be controlled by CSS

<kennyluck> -> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2011Jan/0354 Aharon's mail about text-align and <option>

revisit next week


Bug 10810 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10810>

LS and PS be dealt with correctly

aharon: rejected because html doesn't know anything about textarea and pre
... actually CSS issue
... used to be a statement in html spec
... about whitespace folding
... LS and PS were not considered whitespace
... but that statement is gone
... html doesn't know anything about character semantics
... CSS doesn't say that LS/PS are not supported
... so maybe Unicode should be followed? so every browser has a bug in it as a result
... fantasai added tests to textarea and pre
... although test has a bug

Bug 10811 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10811>

same issue, but in script dialog text

aharon: rejected, same as above

Bug 10814 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10814>

Proposes that display:block elements, except those taken out of document flow with CSS such as float or position:absolute, should be specified as introducing a UBA paragraph break between the content preceding

and following

aharon: so a div inside a div, the two should be isolated
... rejected because it's in the purview of CSS
... html spec doesn't say that block elements form paragraphs or anything like that
... and html has no concept of inline or block elements any more
... so can't do anything here
... what we want *is* specified in CSS 2.1
... and Mozilla and Opera not doing it is a bug

<kennyluck> +q

kennyluck: that's because mozilla didn't support user-agent stylesheet with bidi properties

<kennyluck> http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/rendering.html#rendering

kennyluck: link mentions default stylesheet
... so this is a suggestion
... to user-agents
... so maybe make the bidi styles a *requirement*
... and have it be separate
... many styles above are not essential
... but some, like bidi, are

aharon: that makes sense to me
... didn't realize that stylesheet was non-normative
... also state in human-readable text what the thing is specifying

<kennyluck> [[12 Rendering

<kennyluck> User agents are not required to present HTML documents in any particular way. However, this section provides a set of suggestions for rendering HTML documents that, if followed, are likely to lead to a user experience that closely resembles the experience intended by the documents' authors. So as to avoid confusion regarding the normativity of this section, RFC2119 terms have not been used. Instead, the term "expected" is used to indicate behavior that wil

<kennyluck> lead to this experience. ]]

<kennyluck> we need to make "expected"s into "should"s

<scribe> ACTION: aharon: open new issue on HTML5 to make bidi-related default stylesheet items normative (separate from merely presentational stuff) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Created ACTION-11 - Open new issue on HTML5 to make bidi-related default stylesheet items normative (separate from merely presentational stuff) [on Aharon Lanin - due 2011-01-26].

<kennyluck> so that we can write conforming tests.

Bug 10822 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10822>

Proposes recommending that on an OS that has a widespread convention for setting direction, the user agent should support that convention on input and textarea elements.

aharon: Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>

Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>

Bug 10825 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10825>

can't talk about scrollbar positioning (html doesn't even talk about scrollbars)

aharon: also approached CSS
... and maybe even a style
... only thing we can do is publish some recommendations about scroll bars

will revisit


<kennyluck> +1 and you might want to prefix that with [css3-ui]

Bug 10812 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10812>

Proposes that in <textarea> and <pre>, line breaks should constitute UBA paragraph breaks.

<kennyluck> HTML5 bidi bugs to be closed

aharon: they did add a note to HTML5 about <pre> though
... and filed similar note for textarea
... which I think was fixed

Bug 10827 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10827>

Proposes that plain text passed by page scripts to whatever services are provided for dialog display without specifying an explicit direction should be displayed according to the UBA's rules P1, P2, and P3, which estimate the direction of each paragraph according to its first strong character.

aharon: stuff likes alerts
... should be displayed according to uba rules
... had no hope of being accepted, but it was

- Bug 10817 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10817>

Proposes requiring that title element text will be displayed in the element's computed direction.

aharon: specified directly for title and also in blanket statement about native controls

Bug 10819 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10819>

aharon: blanket statement about native controls and gives specific example about selective option

Bug 10821 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10821>

Proposes specifying that when the user agent user interface allows the user to set the direction of <input> and <textarea> elements, it will set the element's dir attribute value accordingly and trigger the oninput event after the dir attribute has been set.

aharon: various behavior in various browsers
... was accepted in full

norbert: only applies to text and search

aharon: tried to be concerned about, but can't think of any other types
... like password
... don't care which way the blobs appear

Bug 10813 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10813>

defined by Unicode

but included a note

Bug 10815 <http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10815>

Proposes removing the HTML 4 requirement<http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/struct/dirlang.html#style-bidi>that block elements forced to display:inline should effectively get unicode-bidi:embed. Instead, the default value of the ubi attribute for them

should be on

aharon: attribute didn't get in
... but we have the <bdi> element
... so this couldn't go in, since no attribute to set
... and also because statement in question was removed
... however, default stylesheet has the same thing basically
... elements that used to be block
... and they changed to unicode-bidi:isolate

richard: think Aharon has done a fantastic job

Addison: yes: kudos!!

<kennyluck> +1 aharon has done excellent job!

<fsasaki> +1!

<David> +1

aharon: hoping to work on test suites to test these features

WOFF responses


richard: "don't ignore opentype features"
... haven't chased down fully





widgets default locale


addison: this has to do with defiing a default locale for widgets
... all that is present is the ability to specify various language versions

<widget xmlns = "http://www.w3.org/ns/widgets" defaultlocale = "en-us">



gwyneth: there is a big conference to do with Olson database integration
... can't recall details


Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: aharon: open new issue on HTML5 to make bidi-related default stylesheet items normative (separate from merely presentational stuff) [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/01/19 16:00:23 $

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Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/still/still not/
Succeeded: s/have no/had no/
Found Scribe: Addison Phillips
Found ScribeNick: aphillip

WARNING: No "Present: ... " found!
Possibly Present: Addison Addison_Phillips David Norbert P22 P25 P4 Richard ScribeNick aharon fsasaki gwyneth i18n joined kenny kennyluck r12a-mac trackbot
You can indicate people for the Present list like this:
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        <dbooth> Present+ amy

Agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2011Jan/0004.html
Got date from IRC log name: 19 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-i18n-minutes.html
People with action items: aharon

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