HTML-A11Y telecon

19 Jan 2011

See also: IRC log


Janina, Kenny_Johar, Judy, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes
Shawn, Sean


<janina> agenda: this

Identify Scribe

<Sean> ok. whats the passcode then

<kenny_j> its 2119

<janina> Shawn, Code is 2119#

<Sean> not working here

<janina> scribe: Shawn

Actions Review http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/track/actions/open

<Sean> Issue 94 draft change proposal for html-issue-142 video (poster alt)

<Sean> Scribe: Sean

reviewed actions. no reported progress

Continued Itemized Bugs Review -- See itemization below

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10843

<janina> - Support user control over the visual presentation of caption text.

<janina> (RESOLVED NEEDSINFO) - John Foliot

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10941

<janina> - Media elements need control-independent "pause" for presenting lengthy

<janina> descriptions/captions (RESOLVED REMIND) - Masatomo Kobayashi

sean sent email to silvia

discussed techniques, no inerface for author to interface to client side tts

but other than that the information is there for UA

Janina: there is a motion to taking up client side TTS in HTCG

as part of audio work

<janina> http://www.w3.org/2011/01/14-hcg-minutes.html

mkobayash: did you use normal pause?

sean: yes

mkobayash: user cannot press pause button

the technique uses the pause API triggered by caption

group: conclusion is that the informationis there

keeping open until we hear form silvia before closing the bug

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11207

<janina> - Make track element additions technology neutral (RESOLVED FIXED) - Sean

<janina> Hayes

still section 10.3.2 close

if Ian was to delete this section then we could close the bug

have put a note to that effect

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11395

<janina> - Use media queries to select appropriate <track> elements (RESOLVED

<janina> WONTFIX) - Frank Olivier

there is no need for the W3C to keep track

I checked with frank earlier today

eric to check with DSinger

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11593

<janina> - The <track> @kind attribute should include the all of the identified

<janina> accessibility content types (NEW) - John Foliot

<scribe> ACTION: Eric_Carlson, get D Singer to adopt bug 11395 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson,

<scribe> ACTION: Eric_Carlson get D Singer to adopt bug 11395 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]

<trackbot> Sorry, couldn't find user - Eric_Carlson

<janina> http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=11593

<janina> - The <track> @kind attribute should include the all of the identified

<janina> accessibility content types (NEW) - John Foliot

in the run up to LC we were thinking about new track types so John filed a bug on it

however Silvias analysis is that they were all covered

Janina: we can close if that is indeed the case

check with silvia

janina: done with first pass
... will need to return to some as a second pass
... confirm in email, ask john to manage

Poster Issue http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2010Dec/0054.html

janina: is there anyone that thinks that alt text needs to distinguish poster from media
... seems that the poster behaviour functions as a static image and thats what the alt is abouy

eric: john is not here

and his opinion is we need something as a separate discription

judy: whats the point of discussing now?

janina: bringing out the positions

eric: if you are saying that we need a separate description of the 1st frame from the video, i dont agree

janina: we dont need a description of the elemnet

this is what we traditionallly have done is describe images

so if poster is an image then alt and longdesc apply to it

or 1st frame if its functioning as an image

no alt description for the element

eric: I meant a description of the resource

eric; agree author needs alt or longdesc of the media content

eric: but not describe the 1st frame separately
... if it needs to be destinct then it should be described as part of the media resource

eric; seems to me that a description of a video describes what you see in the first frame or poster

janina: how does this differ from a static image

eric: video is different tform a static image

janina: sighted user knows its a video how?

eric: if default controls arent shown then it looks the same as an image

if the controls are there then you see them overlaid

janian: browser + AT can recognize the controls

eric; yes

janina: so see no need to describe that

prgrammatically ccan determine image from video, so whatever is being shown is all that needs describing - which is a static image

functionally no different than describing an image

eric: johns point is that we need a new child element of the video containing the poster and a description of the poster
... agree with Janina, use existing attribute on the element itself

janina: true that alt as an attribute has some issues

for i18n

but thats a separate discussion on enhancing alt

eric: what about autoplay?

janina: can keep that from happening

eric: even if it starts playing on any user action. what does it mean if the description only cvers the static part and the AT gets to it after playback has started

janina: we should try to avoid that

eric: other controls on the page e.g. an element, can start the video playing

so thinking that doesnt make sense to just describe the static representation, should include description of the media and the first frame (if significant)

eric: we cant prevent it, but may be an edge case

image on another part of the screen which starts the video on hover

any script can trigger media element

janina: yes - a problem

wcag requirement is that you can disable that

or stop it

eric: hard to do

iOS has this behaviour

needs an explicit user gesture to start video

must be in a user initiated event handler

but hard to do on desktop, big change

would break content

Judy: I'm worried we might not have anything exlict on this in wcag

possible we have something adequately generic

and a technique would take care of it

eric: best we can do is an authoring guideline

janina: thinking we cant prevent it

judy: except if we have the ability to feed in UA guidelines

eric: my point is that its possible for a UA to prevent autoplay, not honor page authors trequest

but its difficult prevent any script

when is it OK, thats the issue

janina: its a common behaviour, and people like it; but for some its an accessibility issue

eric: but whats to prevent a script running>

kenny: difficult for engineers, but could filter out based on events

eric: wont prevent it

they are attached to media loading

very difficult to determine automatically when its ok and when its not

on iOS script has to be triggered from user gesture

but its hard to implement; and breaks a lot of content

lots of bug reports on iphone because of this

causes authors to write new scriptsa for the phone

wont get buy in on such a change

janina: maybe its a new user requirment

judy: wcag doesnt say anything directly relevant to preventing autoplay

the relevant place is UAAG, and has a clause on separate selection form activation

as a user option

partial relevance

and another one about event handlers

maybe needs to revisited if we have feedback on autoplay

kenny: Q: is there a possibility of dealing with it in browser to give screen reader user a means to stop the video on request

judy: both probably, but we dont have both covered

eric; technically possible

but custom controls wuld have to have a case to deal with it

on page with default controls tho could work

janina: strayed form the poster issue? but identified an important issue

need to articulate it better

janina: that media does not start automatically unless user asks for it

not bringing focus on another element etc. setting for specific users

eric: this is a problem that cant be solved cleanly

we will prevent people from writing custom controls

kenny: so if browsers give a keystrok to stop, it should be possible now that video is native

may be a more robust solution

and its only one new gesture to learn

eric; could work.

sean: but if the video starts then the poster is no longer visible

eric: so the description needs ot be of the whole resource

so its always relevant

janina: ok, hadnt thought of that

kenny: alt text for the video must describe the video, but not frame by frame

janina: description for poster would need to dissapear

would make sense if the video is paused on different frame


janina: more fruitful conversation tan expected

summary: 1 mechanism or multiple mechanisms

point of disagreement

point 2: jf and janina have discussed offline, he's cncernd that the poster may be irrlevant to what the movie is

if thats the case then its the case for the sighted user too

expecting there is some thing which tells you what the video is, separate from any poster image

like a title

judy: a name is the most consistent thing

eric: majority of web content just has the first frame of the file

so not that helpful to sighted user either

janina: should try to solve bad authoring

should not

but john may have a different perspective

have we missed anything?


CfP for media API went out. deadline feb 21

Summary of Action Items

[NEW] ACTION: Eric_Carlson get D Singer to adopt bug 11395 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Eric_Carlson, get D Singer to adopt bug 11395 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]

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$Date: 2011/01/19 23:28:05 $

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Found Scribe: Shawn
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Default Present: Janina, Kenny_Johar, Judy, Eric_Carlson, Sean_Hayes
Present: Janina Kenny_Johar Judy Eric_Carlson Sean_Hayes
Got date from IRC log name: 19 Jan 2011
Guessing minutes URL: http://www.w3.org/2011/01/19-html-a11y-minutes.html
People with action items: d eric_carlson get singer

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